Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

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Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jan 2008 05:45


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Postby Gerard » 31 Jan 2008 05:50

Israel set to emerge India's biggest defence supplier

Rahul Datta | New Delhi
The Daily Pioneer
http://www.dailypioneer.com
2008/01/30
posted in full since site does not archive

With the maturing of at least two major deals, Israel is likely to emerge as the biggest defence partner of India in the next fiscal.

The country likely to emerge as the second biggest defence supplier is the US, whose Defence Secretary Robert Gates will pay his maiden visit to New Delhi in the last week of February to discuss further opening up of the defence sector between the two democracies.

In the backdrop of proposed acquisition of weapon platforms from Israel and the US, the Government is likely to hike the budget for the next financial year by Rs 3,500 to Rs 4,000 crore from this year's Rs 97,000 crore.

The budgetary provisions for the next year would hover around 2.7 per cent of the GDP even though the political class and strategists lobbied for raising it to three per cent, sources said here on Wednesday.

Having established diplomatic relations more than a decade and half ago, India and Israel have strengthened their defence relations and Israel has now emerged as the second defence exporter after Russia.

The next fiscal was likely to see the Israeli industries signing a deal for more than one billion dollars with India for 50 Green Pine radars to bolster our air defence.

India acquired three of these highly sophisticated radars for air defence system. With the successful test of and with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully testing its defence shield missiles late last year, the need for more Gareen Pine radars had cropped up.

Keen to develop and manufacture the missile in-house, the DRDO was in favour of acquiring the technology transfer for 50 more Green Pine radars and the public sector Bharat Electronic Limited was identified as the manufacturer, sources said.

The entire package was likely to cross the one billion dollar mark thereby making it one of biggest deals with Israel in the last few years, they added.

These radars are critical component of the defence shield and the exo (outside the atmosphere) and endo (within the atmosphere) missiles developed by the DRDO rely on them to warn within 15 seconds about an incoming enemy missile and the response including the successful interception and shooting down the hostile missile in the next 20 to 25 seconds, sources said.

The other major deal with Israel in the next fiscal was highly sophisticated weapons and communication systems for the elite Special Forces of the Indian Army. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) gave the nod for the more than 500 million dollar deal last month involving 40 items.

The Special Forces would get items like underwater rifles, kayaks, diver propulsion vehicles, radio transponders, beacon guidance systems and bullet-proof jackets among others through Government-to-Government sale from the US and Israel, source said. In fact, most of the equipment would come from Israel as our security forces were already using some of the best close quarter rifles manufactured by Israel, he pointed out.

The UPA Government also cleared the biggest ever arms deal with the US involving purchase of six large transport planes at an estimated cost of one billion dollars. The nod was given by the CCS last week for the Hercules C-130 J aircraft which has all weather and night flying capabilities and ideally suited for Special Forces operations behind the enemy lines. This commitment would also see the financial planners providing for funds in the next year's budget, sources said.

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Postby JaiS » 31 Jan 2008 07:46

A few questions :

1. From what I have read in the past, the Greenpines cost much more than the $ 20 million figure, which is being alluded to in the previous report.

2. It has been reported that India has developed it's own radars based upon the GPine and Master-A, then what is the need for importing such systems again, and in such numbers ? I understand that certain subsystems may be required to be imported for the indigenously developed radars, but then the report talks about complete systems.

3. Isn't ToT for GPine infeasible since it is a joint US-Israeli project ?

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Postby Austin » 31 Jan 2008 08:09

50 GP is too much and since LRTR is a deeply modified version of GreenPine , I see no reason why should we go for GP and not our own LRTR

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Postby JCage » 31 Jan 2008 09:05

50 GP may sound overkill...thats some 50 batteries. Though I wouldnt mind. :wink:

Original plans were to have 150 S-300 launchers. This sounds in the same ballpark, with some 3 PAD/AAD launchers associated with each GP/ MFCR combo. 8)

Though given the performance of the GP- the number seems way too high.

The article is wrong about 3 of these radars being acquired- it was 2.

Jai, Austin, agree on all points. It could include the license costs for series production of any local components that we decided to carry over from the original GP into the LRTR derivative, which is what the article says, about "TOT" to BEL etc. Given the radars being manufactured in India, that would keep costs lower than the original.

Other thing is that the tech is through DRDO which is then handing it over to BEL etc. This in the past has led to many spinoff products emerging within a timeframe of 5 years. This is what we should be looking at to see what all emerge from the LRTR and MFCR development, ie the 2012 timeframe. BEL alone wouldnt have done as much with the system.

But given the manner in which news is released including the "Prithvi-3" and what not for the Sagarika etc, IMHO, this includes some other stuff being passed off under GP - namely the development of higher range, even more powerful radars able to track faster missiles. Remember AD1 and AD-2. 8)

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Postby JCage » 31 Jan 2008 11:22

Ajai Shuklas original article recieved by mail. Thanks to BRF lurker Aks.

[quote]An untold story: how India got its missile defence

Dateline: Hyderabad

There was scepticism on 27th Nov 06, when the Ministry of Defence (MoD) made a surprise announcement. In a secret test at Wheeler’s Island, off the Orissa coast, a missile launched by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) had hit and destroyed a simulated incoming enemy ballistic missile (usually used to carry nuclear bombs to targets hundreds of kilometres away) while it was 78 kilometres above the Bay of Bengal, still outside the earth’s atmosphere. A year later, on 6th Dec 07, the MoD declared a second test successful, when an incoming ballistic missile was shot down inside the atmosphere, some 15 kilometres above the earth. This was high-technology success; no more than six or seven countries have anti-ballistic missile (ABM) capability.

Unlike the shrill promises that accompanied the Trishul and Akash anti-aircraft missiles, the ABM programme was kept secret, even from close watchers of the DRDO. Now, Business Standard has been granted exclusive access to the ABM missile production facilities in Hyderabad, and told the story of how the programme evolved.

It began in 1995, when alarm bells were set off in the MoD, after India first learned that Pakistan had obtained the M-9 and M-11 ballistic missiles from China. India already had its own nuclear deterrent in place; the Prithvi missile was ready, and the Agni was being tested. But Pakistan was considered unpredictable and, in 1996, the MoD asked its Scientific Advisor, Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, whether India could quickly develop protection against an incoming Pakistani ballistic missile.

Dr Abdul Kalam was already overseeing the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP); he began feasibility studies on an ABM programme as well. The DRDO’s first challenge was to develop a radar, which could pick up enemy ballistic missiles being launched from up to 300 kilometres away. The longest range Indian radar was the Rajendra, with a range of 60 kilometres, and there simply wasn’t the time to develop a long-range radar from scratch. The only option was foreign collaboration. Dr Abdul Kalam put one of his top scientists, Dr VK Saraswat, in charge.

Dr Saraswat recounts how Russia was first approached, but the conditions in Russia --- with defence R&D at an all time low --- made the DRDO reject that option. It was then that the Israeli ABM programme ---- the Arrow-1, based upon the long-range Green Pine radar --- caught the DRDO’s eye. A delegation was sent to Israel, but it was turned down because the Green Pine radar incorporated US technology. But Israel did agree to collaborate with India in building a Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR), which could form the basis for India’s ABM system.

[b]Dr Saraswat rejects reports that the LRTR in India’s ABM system is actually the Israeli Green Pine radar. He stated, “The LRTR is actually a radar built by (a DRDO laboratory) the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) in Bangalore, in collaboration with Israeli company, ELTA. It is not the Green Pine. The technology of the Green Pine may be built into this, but not even a single module of Green Pine is in (the LRTR). If we had done that, the Americans would have stopped the flow of technology to Israel.â€

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Postby shyamd » 31 Jan 2008 16:13

GW Bush is trying his best to make offsets on defence deals illegal by launching an international convention.

Washington says that, defence offsets fosters corruption and skewer competition. Some State Departmentwalla's have started drafting the policies to be presented to the EU & NATO later this year. Washington has already made the Aussies back this initiative.

On Nov 6th, the State Departmentwallah's discretely met with defence officials of 6 EU countries(FRANCE, UK, Italy, Germany, Spain and SWEDEN) and 2 officials from the European Defence Agency in Madrid.

Europeans makes clear to SDwallah's that they are skeptical about this project.
Some of the officials made the point that, the Pentagon uses conditions on foreign companies that sell goods to them, by asking them to build plants in certain states in the US.
Interestingly, The UK was the most opposed to this move.

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Postby Malay » 31 Jan 2008 16:32

Then is the Pioneer report crap?
If the GP is not required for our PAD?

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 31 Jan 2008 18:37

A Greenpine system can cost around US$ 100million. So I think India may be in process of acquiring license to produce "upto" 50 radars over a period of time, say 5-20years.

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Postby JCage » 31 Jan 2008 19:55

Malay wrote:Then is the Pioneer report crap?
If the GP is not required for our PAD?


Yeah, its pretty much trash in some ways. GP is not required for the PAD- I have details on the system, and the LRTR is far ahead of the original. The original GP just cant do what is expected of the LRTR and Elta itself has started work on its "Super Green Pine" so as to deal with faster missiles. We knew what we faced and so worked on the LRTR. Bet the US has funded the Arrow/GP in depth, so they need to involve the US in it.

For that matter, this is not the first radar LRDE has developed in close coop with another firm; as I said in another 4-5 years you'll see other LRTR & MFCR derivatives for the IAF and IA. One thing we might work with Israel though is for contract manufacturing to our design for some semiconductor items. They do have more fab capability than us, but are also struggling to keep these units profitable.

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Postby Paul » 02 Feb 2008 03:16

[quote]Russian aircraft costlier’


New Delhi, Feb. 1: India is reconciled to paying at least a part of the additional $1.2 billion Russia is demanding for an aircraft carrier the Indian Navy has purchased for $1.5 billion. “The original negotiations were sketchy. This has forced us to re-examine the entire issue,â€

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Postby Tilak » 04 Feb 2008 05:41

India May End Ban on Company Use of Defense Agents
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

[quote]NEW DELHI — In an attempt to speed up procurement [/ Party funds for elections] :roll:, India may reverse a ban on companies’ use of agents in seeking Indian defense contracts, the minister of state for defense said.

“The policy of not involving middlemen is proving expensive for the country’s defense preparedness. Military hardware that should have been inducted into the armed forces 10 years ago has not been inducted,â€

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Postby NRao » 04 Feb 2008 16:32

Middlemen are not the problem. They will not bribe if there is no one to bribe. And, if there is no need one to bribe, there is no need to bribe, therefore no need for middlemen.

But then I am sure there is a flaw in this logic.

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Postby bala » 05 Feb 2008 05:20

Frame procedures for financial devolution to forces: Antony

New Delhi (PTI): Defence Financial Controllers have been asked to frame speedy disbursement procedures, lack of which was blocking the services from going in for weapons and platform purchases, Defence Minister, A K Antony, said on Monday.

Virtually pulling up the the controllers, he said though the Cabinet had cleared devolution of more financial powers to three services on capital purchases, lack of disbursement procedures was hampering the services from going in for weapons and platform purchases and optimal utilisation of the funds.

"Enough money is there, clearance too is there, but weapon purchases projects are not getting off the ground," he said in his address to the three-day Defence Financial Controllers conference here.

With the top brass of the three services in attendance, the Minister said such lack of procedures was hitting the much-needed modernisation of the forces.

The conference is taking place against the backdrop of India being on the verge of signing a number of mega defence deals running into billions of dollars this year.

The contracts would range from purchase of weapons platforms like maritime reconnaissance aircraft, spy drones, light and heavy artillery guns, fighter aircraft and radars and counter electronic warfare systems.

The three-day conference being attended by financial controllers of the defence ministry comes in the wake of recent reports that Indian Defence Financial officials still lack the finesse in negotiating mega deals.

Media reports in Israel recently spoke of India paying almost double the amount for purchase of three AWACS aircraft from Telaviv. India is reported to have finalised the deal for 1.1 billion dollars, for which China was only prepared to pay 358 million dollars.

There are also reports that Indian defence industry, which mostly comprises the Defence Public Sector Undertakings and Ordnance factorites board are still grappling with means to absorb offsets, which have now been made mandatory in all defence contracts exceeding Rs 300 crore.

Apparently these issues riding high on his mind, the Defence Minister told the controllers that they would have to come to grips with modern system of defence purchases.

While lauding the move to go in for computerisations and online auditing, Antony reminded them that it was still the man behind the machine, which counted in the long run.

"Going online and computerisation should not be allowed to overshadow humane side of doing things," he said.

In this context here referred to sad plight of ex-servicemen saying "when they are in uniform, they are the darling of nation, but once they hang up their fighting boots, they are in bad condition".

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Postby bala » 05 Feb 2008 05:34

The way things work in practice, the Politician/Babu are in cahoots on the bribe trail. When a vendor comes in offering a product, they have legitimate needs for hiring an agent to get contacts and push the sale. Usually the commission for the agent is his/her only means of earning a living. Where things go awry is when tenders are favored not because of price alone but due to vested interest pushing for a vendor. Often times the politician/babu come up with a blanket demand of say 10-20% of the deal and the vendor is forced to jack it up commensurately. Vendors willing to play ball get the contract. Nowadays due to various scrutiny the payoffs are very obfuscated. Politicians in India are very clever not to involve themselves directly.

In state politics tenders for public works is the worst corrupt area. Here politicians themselves tell the vendors to jack up prices so that the cut they get is more. In some cases they dont bother with whether work was done or not in which case the amounts for bribe are more. Some politicians have front men who take the cash. For example Dev Gowda tooks bribes by using a godman who in turn duped Dev Gowda. The amount of money is staggering running into several thousand crores. Each day around $50 crore of bribe amount is transacted for states like Knataka.

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Postby A Sharma » 05 Feb 2008 18:28

New command and control (C2) systems to be deployed in Indian defence excercise

The Brazen chariots excercise of the Indian Army and Air Force scheduled for later this month will witness the deployment of a comprehensive communication and data linking systems incorporating Battlefield Surveillance System (BSS) and Force Multiplier Command Post(FMCP). This is perhaps the first time such a comprehensive battlefield C2 system is being deployed in an Indian military excercise.

Notwithstanding the hi-tech weaponry and war fighting support systems, essential pre-requisites to success in battle, the exercise will most certainly challenge the military leadership at various levels as their ability to synergize the application of the state-of-the-art weapon platforms towards achieving optimum results aimed at causing pre-emption, disruption and dislocation of enemy forces will be tested.

The Indian Army together with the Indian Air Force is set to project ‘manoeuvre warfare doctrine’ of the Indian Armed Forces in a ‘fire and manoeuvre’ combat exercise, codenamed “Brazen Chariotsâ€

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Postby A Sharma » 05 Feb 2008 18:38

Boeing, IISc, Wipro and HCL to Develop Network Technology for Aerospace Use

NEW DELHI --- Boeing has entered into an agreement with the Indian Institute of Science (IISc) and two leading Indian information technology companies to develop wireless and other network technologies for aerospace-related applications. The agreement, signed by representatives from Boeing, IISc's Society for Innovation and Development, Wipro Technologies and HCL Technologies, forms the Aerospace Network Research Consortium (ANRC).


Led by Boeing, the ANRC is India's first public-private aerospace research consortium. "We have a great need for advanced affordable aerospace network R&D," said Naveed Hussain, Engineering and Technology vice president for Boeing in India. "It is part of Boeing's strategy to leverage top research capabilities anywhere in the world and we look forward to working with our Indian partners to benefit from their tremendous capabilities and talents in this area." "We are pleased to be part of this consortium," said Professor Veni Madhavan, chief executive of IISc's Society for Innovation and Development.

"This collaborative approach will help permit research at IISc to be utilized for appropriate and interesting applications in the aerospace industry." Initially established as a four-year collaborative effort, the agreement can be extended based on mutual interests. Financial terms of the agreement were not disclosed. Researchers from Boeing Phantom Works, the company's advanced R&D unit, and Commercial Airplanes will represent Boeing.

Boeing is the world's leading aerospace company and the largest manufacturer of commercial jetliners and military aircraft combined, providing products and tailored services to airlines and U.S. and allied armed forces around the world. Phantom Works conducts its own R&D and also works with top government, private and university research centers throughout the world to quickly find the most innovative and affordable technology solutions for aerospace applications.

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Postby Katare » 05 Feb 2008 23:56


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Postby Sanjay M » 06 Feb 2008 06:48

Where's the talk on the C-130 Hercules deal?

Has everybody missed that, or has it already been discussed to death?

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndu ... 0220080206

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Postby sunilUpa » 06 Feb 2008 07:03

Sanjay M wrote:Where's the talk on the C-130 Hercules deal?

Has everybody missed that, or has it already been discussed to death?

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndu ... 0220080206


Hey you just beat me to it!. Reuters says the deal was signed on Jan 31 and first aircraft will be delivered in 2011.

WASHINGTON, Feb 5 (Reuters) - India has agreed to buy six Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) C-130J military transport planes in a breakthrough deal with the United States worth about $1 billion that opens a door to closer strategic ties, U.S. officials said on Tuesday.

India and the U.S. signed an agreement on Jan. 31 for Lockheed to start delivering the four-engine Super Hercules turboprop aircraft in 2011, said Bruce Lemkin, who handles U.S. Air Force international affairs.


Lemkin said the agreement provided for U.S. logistics support, training and spare parts as well as the aircraft.

Indian airmen would start training in the U.S., probably in Little Rock, Arkansas, in 2010, the year before deliveries start, he said.


Earlier I had read reports that deal will be signed during Robert Gates visit to India.

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Postby sunilUpa » 06 Feb 2008 07:10

HAL to make 57 more Hawk jet trainers

[quote]Bangalore: India’s state-owned aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will produce 57 additional Hawk advanced jet trainers, under licence from British defence contractor BAE Systems Plc., for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the navy.
IAF requires 40 new trainers while the navy has sought 17 trainers for pilots before they fly supersonic fighters such as MiG-21 and Sukhoi 30 MkI.
“[b]There is (already) huge investment in India for the Hawks. Producing them here makes sense,â€

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Postby sunilUpa » 06 Feb 2008 07:17

While we are talking about Hawks,

INDIAN HAWK creates history
Brough, United Kingdom. – Yesterday, a BAE Systems Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) destined for the Indian Air Force, became the first ever Hawk aircraft to make its maiden flight from the Brough site.


The jet, the 22nd aircraft out of 24 being built in the UK for the Indian Air Force (IAF), takes its place in history as the first aircraft designed, manufactured, fully assembled, tested and to make its maiden flight from the Brough site. They built 22 Hawks already?

The history making flight is just the latest of recent successes on the Indian Hawk programme, which sees BAE Systems delivering a total training package to the IAF. Prior to Christmas the first four Hawks were delivered to their new home at Air Force Station Bidar with the next few aircraft scheduled to arrive in the next few weeks.


link

and more news on Hawk..

Defence Minister to dedicate Hawk jet trainer

Bangalore: Defence Minister A. K. Antony will on February 23 dedicate the long awaited Hawk advanced jet trainer (AJT) to the nation.

To take place at Air Force Station (AFS) Bidar (northern Karnataka), the ceremonial dedication will also mark the formal induction of the British built Hawk into the Indian Air Force.

The Air Force has waited for over two decades for an AJT.


The first two direct supply Hawks manufactured for the Air Force landed in Bidar, via AFS Jamnagar (Gujarat) in mid-November. Ten more British built Hawks are scheduled to arrive at AFS Bidar by mid February.

The Air Force has already constituted a ‘board of officers’ who will take over the Hawks. Speaking to The Hindu Air Officer Commanding-in Chief, Head Quarters Training Command Air Marshal Gurnam Singh Chaudhry, said qualified instructors were already flying the Hawks at AFS Bidar.



Hmmm so HAL's current yearly plan for original 40 is 10. Are they going to create additional facility to spped up delivery of second lot of 57 Hawks?

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Postby Vick » 06 Feb 2008 07:27

From DN
Posted 02/05/08 12:08

India Seeks Bids for New Airport Systems, Air Defense Gear
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

NEW DELHI — India, which is planning a $1.5 billion upgrade for its 30 military airports and their air traffic control systems, issued a request for bids in January, a senior Indian Defence Ministry official said.

The Air Force is also buying air defense gear, a senior service official said. He gave no details about the equipment sought but said the Air Force likely will spend more than $1 billion on it.

Invited to bid on the project’s first phase were France’s Thales, the U.S.’s Lockheed Martin, Germany’s Siemens, Italy’s Celex, Britain’s Terma, and India’s Tata Power and Mumbai-based NELCO. That phase will include the supply, installation, testing and integration of equipment subsystems.

The effort is part of India’s plan to increase troops’ mobility in conformity with the latest military doctrine, which stipulates that future wars will be fast, lethal and shorter.

Last month, the Indian government approved the purchase of six U.S. C-130J airlifters to speedily move troops.

The airfields include Adampur, AFA, Agra, Ambala, Bagdogra, Bareilly, Bhatinda, Bhuj, Bidar, Chabua, Chandigarh, Gorakhpur, Gwalior, Halwara, Hasimara, Hindon, Jaisalmer, Jamnagar, Jodhpur, Jorhat, KKD, Nal, Naliya, Pathankot, Pune, Sirsa, Suratgarh, Tezpur, Uttarlai and Yelahanka.

Bidders must include offsets worth 30 percent of their bid, and must agree to complete the work within 3½ years of contract signature.

One airfield will become a model airbase and test bed, the official said.

Each airfield must receive new lighting, automated air traffic control management system, instrument landing system, distance measuring equipment and a Doppler very-high-frequency omni-range navigation system that works up to 15,000 feet. The winning bidder must also supply six mobile airfield lighting systems to fill in when airfield lights fail, one mobile air traffic control system, and facilities to train people to run and fix the systems.

The automated air traffic control system must operate around the clock, 365 days a year, with lights that have a minimum life of 15 years and operate from zero to 50 degrees Celsius.

All equipment should be able to operate on AC power from 160 volts to 260 volts.

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Postby JaiS » 06 Feb 2008 14:38

India signs agreement for Hercules aircraft

India has signed its biggest military deal yet with the US to buy six Super Hercules C130J special role aircraft in a $1 billion-plus package deal.

Air Chief Marshal FH Major, Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF), told India Strategic website and defence magazine that a Letter of Agreement (LAO) was signed on January 30 in New Delhi for six aircraft, infrastructure, spares and spare engines, related equipment, and operational and maintenance training.

"It's a package deal with the US government under its Foreign Military Sales Programme (FMS), and India has retained options to buy six more of these aircraft for its special forces for combined army-air force operations," the IAF chief told the magazine's website which he will inaugurate Thursday.


Lockheed Martin, the world's biggest military equipment manufacturer, has made the aircraft. Its India chief executive officer (CEO), Douglas A. Hartwick, told India Strategic that the company would begin supplying the aircraft within 36 months of the signing of the LOA.

Notably, the US government guarantees supplies of equipment and infrastructure package under its FMS programme. But its procedures do not take into account any commercial details like offsets, and it is left to the manufacturing company to sort that out.

However, as India has made 30 percent minimum offsets obligatory for any defence deal worth or over Rs.3 billion ($70 million) under its Defence Procurement Policy (DPP) 2006, Hartwick said Lockheed Martin would meet this requirement by transferring technology and investment as mutually agreed to.

This is the third Indian agreement for military equipment with the US. The first two were for Weapon Locating Radars (WLRs) from Raytheon for the artillery and the other for second-hand amphibious operations ship LPD (landing Platform Dock) Trenton, now named INS Jalashwa along with its six onboard Sikorsky helicopters.

The cost of the Super Hercules deal has not been disclosed in India but according to indications from Washington, the package is worth nearly $1.1 billion. This outstrips the cost of the earlier two deals put together.

Major said that the aircraft would be "an extended version" built according to Indian specifications.

"It would be a couple of metres longer than the standard Hercules aircraft, and equipped with equipment for night and battle zone operations."

The C-130J model is the latest optimised version of the Hercules C-130, configured for landing and takeoff from a grassy, or dirt patch the size of a football field. It can climb and get out of a threat area faster after dropping or carrying troops or wounded personnel.

Named after a powerful Greek figure, the 4-engine Hercules is one of the oldest transport aircraft in the world. Introduced in the 1950s, and used in 67 countries, it has been deployed for recovering space capsules and also been able to land in the Antarctica by wearing skis.

The Super Hercules version is an entirely new aircraft with new capabilities in the 20-tonne capacity category.

Its engines are quieter, and the aircraft has advanced radar and missile warning systems, counter-measure dispensation and sophisticated communication equipment. India is reportedly buying eight spare engines.

Major said that with its low-power cockpit display and lights-off operational capability, the C-130J would be an important asset with the IAF. It could be used in various forms, including as a refueller for helicopters and transport aircraft.

The aircraft has a low power Northrop Grumman display, digitally stored maps, a Honeywell Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation System (GPS/INS), an Enhanced Traffic alerting and Collision Avoidance System (E-TCAS), a ground collision avoidance system, and other sophisticated equipment.

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Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2008 15:20

what I like about these FMS is the absense of sifarishi middlemen taking their cut. keeps the corruption down. but its vulnerable to CPI(m) ploys in pre-signing phase.

expensive but should be top notch.

excellent news about the airfield upgrades. about time and we need Nellis style tens of acres of aprons to quickly move forces around without thought to space crunch.

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Postby Kakkaji » 06 Feb 2008 21:17

Lockheed leads American defense companies into India

[quote]The American government is rightly pleased about a $1 billion order that has just been agreed with India for six of Lockheed Martin’s Super Hercules C-130J military transport planes that will be used by the Indian army and air force. This is India’s first large order with an American defense company and it comes at a time when its traditional - and massive - defense ties with Russia are under increasing strain.

India has for decades been reluctant to buy defense equipment from America, fearing Congress’s power to block deliveries if it did not approve of Indian military activity or policy at some time in the future. This attitude has been changing in the past couple of years when ties between the two countries have improved dramatically – notably with talks on a nuclear deal, though that is now making little progress.

“With this sale, India is telling us it’s ready to buy top-quality U.S. equipment on its merits,â€

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Postby viveks » 06 Feb 2008 21:28

I see propaganda!

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Postby sum » 06 Feb 2008 21:37

I feel that the Gorshkov fiasco broke the camels back and has forced India to start coming out of the Bhai-Bhai syndrome with the Russians.....
From now on,Russians start on a backfoot on every tender due to a angry Indian MoD(due to breaking of a signed contract in both sukhoi and naval case)...
JMT...

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Postby JCage » 07 Feb 2008 02:00

Actually the ones on the backfoot are the Euros and even the Israelis are worried. But the latter provide subsystems so arent directly affected.
India- which subsidizes the entire worlds arms industry.

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Postby Paul » 07 Feb 2008 02:29

X-posted from old Indian military aviation thread.

Vick wrote:
There's no reason to shoot anything off of Russia's bow. Russia is India's closest defense partner and is integral to India's military modernization. India has already agreed to multi billion dollar deals with Russia ($1.5B for 3 new frigates, $600M for MTA, $1+B for T-90, $5B for PAK-FA, $250M for 80 MI-17, Mig-29 upg, etc.) Don't let the hype fool anyone into thinking that there will be a diminishing of the India-Russia defense ties.




Please do not quote me out of context....look at the size of this deal, $1 Billion +++. It is not just deal that matters...but implications are important as well.

It signals that India is open to doing bujiness with Uncle Sam...and will give an opprtunity for the American DefInd complex to set up their own lobby in the armed forces. If I were Ivanov, I would not consider this to be a +ve development. For a moment look consider this news from Russia's angle.


If this is the case with a commie backed govt, it will be much more so if a BhajaPa govt comes to power.


Vick, NRao, et al...I hope the implications of the C-130J deal are more obvious now.

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Postby Kakkaji » 07 Feb 2008 02:29

Why doesn't France do an FMS type agreement with India?

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Postby sunilUpa » 07 Feb 2008 04:20

Kakkaji wrote:Why doesn't France do an FMS type agreement with India?
.

DCN did approach French gov. after Scorpene scandal surfaced with a similar proposal. Don't know what is the end result though.

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Postby Vick » 07 Feb 2008 05:14

[quote="Kakkaji"]Lockheed leads American defense companies into India

[quote]Russia now has other significant defense customers and wants market prices. But it is not offering India competitive back-up services on quality, training, and spare parts, and this is seriously affecting the operational efficiency of the Indian armed forces. [b]“The Russians now want to sell arms not at ‘friendship’ but commercial prices, without providing ‘commercial’ quality of after-sales service,â€

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Postby Vick » 07 Feb 2008 05:29

From DN
[quote]Posted 02/06/08 18:47

India Puts MiG-29 Upgrade Back on Track to Approval
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

NEW DELHI — After nearly a year of stalemate in Indo-Russian defense deals, the Indian Defence Ministry has cleared a contract to upgrade 67 Indian Air Force MiG-29 fighter jets by Russian Aircraft Corp. (RSK) MiG.

Final approval will be given by the Cabinet Committee on Security at its next meeting, sources said.

Sources reported that India had agreed to pay about 10 percent more than RSK’s original bid of $800 million, but a senior Defence Ministry official declined to confirm that.

“The price has been settled to the satisfaction of the Indian Air Force,â€

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Postby Roop » 07 Feb 2008 08:15

viveks wrote:I see propaganda!


Where? Please point out specific posts/articles containing said propaganda, to help us understand what you are saying.

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Postby Roop » 07 Feb 2008 08:27

The Russians have the trust but not the competence/credibility. The US has the competence/credibility but not the trust.


Exactly. This sums up India's problems pretty well. If the Americans want to tap into the lucrative Indian arms market, they have to build up political trust. I doubt anyone in India questions the technical quality of American products, it's the damned political threats (sanctions etc.) that are the problem.

American business executives are smart enough to grasp this fact, but their politicians and NPAs... I'm not so sure. People on this forum are always complaining about the French and the Israelis "Oh, they'll sell arms to anyone. You pay them, they'll supply you reliably", as if that's a bad thing :-? . To me, it's one of the most attractive reasons to do business with the French and the Israelis, and as far as technical sophistication is concerned, they're right up there with the Americans (or at least, with anything the Americans are likely to be willing to sell India).

I still think that this C-130J-30 (stretch version) was a good deal as this item is not matched by anyone else and will give the Indian specops community a capability it never had before and can't have without this platform.


Yes the IAF is very keen on these aircraft, according to the internet grapevine.

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Postby Sanjay M » 07 Feb 2008 08:56

The Russians have the trust but not the competence/credibility. The US has the competence/credibility but not the trust.


Well, not only is trust a 2-way street, but trust and credibility are 2 sides of the same coin.

We bought so many Migs and Sukhois from the Russians, but they sell the same tech to the Chinese, which is now even being passed to Pak.

BrahMos is boasted about with pride, but it's really mainly Russian tech that India helped out with financial backing, and we can't even build the key engine components used to make the thing.

We need to get more directly into the aerospace market, by pursuing it as a value-added industry. No point keeping all our brains in the one IT basket, might as well diversify and spread it into other high-end types of engineering. Besides, aerospace is capable of supporting more trickle-down benefits into employing blue collar labour, creating skilled tradesmen, etc.

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Postby sum » 07 Feb 2008 08:56

JCage wrote:
India- which subsidizes the entire worlds arms industry.

Sad but true.... :oops:
Arent we going a bit too fast with the American hug considering its not even been a decade since we were crippled by their sanctions??
We sure do have a short memory.....

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Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2008 09:15

with massive investments set to pour in from boeing, airbus and EADS into
India for offsets and civilian sector and R&d as well, Ru is going to be seriously crowded out of the market except in stuff thats unique like brahmos. they are in no position to outsource commercial stuff to india the
way lockheed or boeing can.

time to play dead for a while, be a faithful all-lie and soak up the love from
Unkil.

for Mig29 upg they should have gone for a EL2032-I and stuffed the Zhuk.

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Postby Kakkaji » 07 Feb 2008 18:40

Vick wrote:From DN
Posted 02/06/08 18:47

The Air Force’s 33 squadrons could shrink to as few as 28.5 squadrons in the next few months, thanks to the impending retirement of MiG-23s and MiG-25s and delays in various aircraft procurement efforts, ministry sources said.

If this happens, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) would have numerical superiority over the Indian Air Force for the first time in 60 years. The PAF currently has 30 squadrons and plans to increase the number to 34 this year.


What a mess! And what a sad position to be in. A country one seventh the size of India in population, and one-tenth of India's economy, can match or exceed India's armed forces on the field. :(

It appears to me that India's Government/ People have completely forgotten the lessons of 1962. Without defense preparedness, the economic growth will have its legs cut out from under it, with a short, sharp, and painful stroke of the enemy's sword, as it happened then.

Is it a genetic trait among us Indians, that we shall never learn the lessons of history? :cry:


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