China Military Watch

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G Subramaniam
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby G Subramaniam » 13 Jun 2008 05:28

Can someone post about the attempted chinese invasion of Daulat beg oldi during kargil war

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rajrang » 13 Jun 2008 09:26

From Satyarthi's information, if the Karakoram pass is both in India and China's control - then I would assume that Indian forces can be physically present on the pass. I hope this is indeed correct. I hope some military person on this forum, or someone who has been to the pass can also further confirm this. I do not recall hearing of any confrontations on this pass (1962 or later). I would suspect from the watershed theory (of separating nations in mountainous terrain) mountain passes will be on the border - implying joint control. However, with China such traditions or rules are irrelevant.

The Daulet Beg Oldi air base becomes highly significant due to this pass. Whether India controls this pass or not, India can rapidly transport forces towards this pass either for defensive purposes (to counter PLA pouring through this pass) or for offensive actions through the pass . However, if the Chinese control this pass, then they can try to prevent the use of DBO using artillery and SAMs.

Meanwhile, we do not control the other 3 mountain passes famous in India's history - Khyber, Boklan and Khunjerab. In Eastern India, we have joint presence on some of the passes - Bum La, Nathu La

Thanks,
Raj

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby vivek_ahuja » 13 Jun 2008 10:07

rajrang wrote:The Daulet Beg Oldi air base becomes highly significant due to this pass. Whether India controls this pass or not, India can rapidly transport forces towards this pass either for defensive purposes (to counter PLA pouring through this pass) or for offensive actions through the pass . However, if the Chinese control this pass, then they can try to prevent the use of DBO using artillery and SAMs.


Raj,

The significance of DBO is not to be underestimated. But neither is it to be overestimated either. While the airbase allows rapid insertion of troops in the volatile region, it provides this advantage only during (or even after) a given period of hostilities. During the period of hostilities, the airbase is extremely vulnerable to being shut down on day one given its close proximity to the front. Other Airbases to the rear have the advantage that they are beyond the range of conventional artillery, and to take to them out requires use of air-strikes or missile strikes. This is considered an escalation (assuming it doesn't start as a full scale war, which it probably will). But with DBO, the Chinese are going to start bombarding it with Artillery systems within an hour of the war starting, rendering it unusable.

Also note that such high altitude airbases require aircrafts to use very high take-off or landing runs. In case of DBO, the runway length is just sufficient for the larger transports to operate (neglecting runway type for now). In other words, unlike other low altitude airbases where if a section of the runway is cratered, smaller aircrafts can take off from other undamaged sections, this would not be possible for areas like DBO, making it's operation during wartime highly sensitive to even light damage.

So what should be expected from DBO is not its wartime service but that during the run-up to a war, allowing rapid deployments to the region. After that the question of the status of DBO depends on which side ends up taking the initiative. That is, whether the IA pushes the Chinese back and far enough to bring DBO from under their artillery or by decimating the latter platforms, or whether the Chinese push inward and require abandoning the field.

-Vivek

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Raj Malhotra » 13 Jun 2008 11:31

DBO's can also be used for rolling take offs my helos to increase their MTOW and to base their support personnel

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Mihir.D » 13 Jun 2008 14:08

An US Think Tank report(I'll try to see if i can find it again) and it says that the Chinese navy is very weak in 3 warfighting areas.
1. Anti air warfare - No ships are equipped with long range SAM system that can offer fleet air defense. Most anti-air systems are for self protection and lack the capability to defend other ships. Hence it is vulnerable to air attacks. Fighter cover will not be available to the warships if they venture beyond a certain distance from China as the PLA-AF's air to air refuelling force is small. In the recent US Northern Edge exercise, the F-22As were employed to provide air superiority to enable other US fighters and bombers to conduct maritime interdiction ops without facing air threats. So you can see the US is busy exploiting this PLAN's weakness.

2. Anti-submarine warfares - Most Chinese warships lack an effective ASW suite and submarines of the PLAN in war will be used for anti-shipping and not ASW.

3. Mine countermeasure - Though they want to conduct offensive mine warfare against Taiwan and US, their MCM capability is next to non-existence. A surprise mining operation against PLAN's major naval bases before the beginning of hostility can cripple their warfighting capability.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Mihir.D » 13 Jun 2008 14:08

Another one about using Raptors ..
Raptor’s air dominance improves air interdiction of maritime targets
By Lance Cpl. Ethan Hoaldridge, U.S. Marine Corps
Northern Edge Joint Information Bureau-Elmendorf

ELMENDORF AIR FORCE BASE, Alaska – Taking out enemy threats on the ground or at sea is the primary focus for any war, and that can be difficult with enemy aircraft present.

Air interdiction of maritime and ground targets, such as anti-aircraft guns and enemy ships, is not possible without total control of the airspace – air dominance, in other words. The F-22A Raptor has improved the U.S. forces joint-service capability to dominate the skies during Northern Edge 2006.

During these warfare scenarios, the Raptor has provided air support for F-15s and F-18s so they can take out both maritime and land targets.

“They [other planes] don’t have the ability to track enemy targets on the land or water and detect air threats simultaneously,” said Capt. Brad Spears, flight commander and F-22 pilot, 27th Fighter Squadron (Langley Air Force Base, Va.). “The Raptor can provide that superior air support so the F-15 can drop bombs or fire missiles at an enemy ship, not worrying about the danger of enemy planes.”

“The Raptor’s stealth, avionics and super cruise abilities will continue to improve our ability to find maritime targets,” said Maj. Christopher Voehl, assistant operations officer for the 90th Fighter Squadron here at Elmendorf.

The 90th currently flies F-15 Strike Eagles but is scheduled to transition to the F-22 next year, which will result in increased regional military capability.

“When the F-15 was first stationed in Alaska, it gave pilots more opportunities to train in the Pacific so they became familiar with the region. That’s one reason we’ll be bringing the Raptor to Alaska,” said Major Voehl.

Once the move has taken place, the Raptor will have two operational bases, the Raptor’s first home at Langley Air Force Base, Va., and here in the 90th FS.

“Having the chance to integrate our new, emerging weapons systems with our proven forces will give the DoD the ability to create a seamless transition into the next generation of air power and to maintain that tactical and strategic advantage,” said Captain Spears.

These advances in technology and warfare tactics will enhance abilities to eliminate enemy targets on land, at sea or in the air.

Continuing to improve U.S. weapons systems, such as adding the F-22 to the Air Force inventory, and then constantly training to improve strategies, like air integration of maritime and land targets, has real-world significance even in today’s Global War on Terrorism

“The military’s current assets are proving their capabilities daily, as evidenced by the F-16 strike that led to the al-Zarquawi takedown,” said Captain Spears. “Northern Edge is an important opportunity to improve the Raptor’s interoperability with current joint operational systems and continue to advance our tactics.”

Exercise Northern Edge, which concludes June 16, is one of a series of U.S. Pacific Command exercises in 2006 that prepare joint forces to respond to crises in the Asian Pacific region.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rohitvats » 13 Jun 2008 14:42

Singha: The troop deployment is not rational. One rationalizes on the troop ratio on the two important parameters:
1. Objective
2. Opposing formations

What you've suggested is highly unrealistic. One needs to examine the situation in terms of assets already available and those required fulfilling the objective. Time does not permit me to elaborate further, but this is what the situation is on ground in the Northern Sector:

1. 14 Corps: 3 Mtn Div (Leh) and 8 Mtn Div – Kargil plus the Independent Infantry Bde (102) for Siachen. If I remember correctly, the 3 Div maintains one brigade up and two in reserve or may be other way around. A Sino-India conflict is most likely to happen in summer when the passes are open and allow the movement of troops and supplies. This means India cannot touch the troops in the 8th Div’s AOR save for a brigade at the maximum.

2. 15 Corps: 19 Div (Baramulla) and 28 Div (Gurais). Of these, the 19th Division has enough troops to qualify it as a Corp in itself. But the catch is the geography of its AOR and the nature of line of communications which require such heavy investment in troops. 28 Division similarly guards the backdoor entry into the valley. I don’t think many troops can come from this sector.

3. 16 Corps: 10Div (Akhnoor), 25th Div (Rajouri) and 39th Mtn Division. The 1st two have clearly defined and pre committed AORs and cannot budge. IIRC, 39th Mtn Division was the Northern Command Reserve. It was based out of Yol in Himachal; around 3 hours drive from Pathankot but has now moved. But not very far though. This is one Division which will be readily available for induction into the Western Sector (opposite Leh and Himachal). The fact that it is a mountain division doesn’t hurt either. Route of induction will be across the Rohtang pass in Kullu-Manali.

4. 9 Corps: 29th Infantry Div (Pathankot) and 26th Infantry Div (Jammu) plus 3 Independent Armored brigades (2nd, 16th (Pathankot) and 3rd (Sambha)). Headquartered out of Yol in Himachal, it was formed out of 16th Corps. During a Sino Indian conflict, this will be in the Chicken’s neck Area to take care of any Pakistani misadventure. It has enough armor (9 armored and 3 mechanized regiments) to take on the ARN in a defensive mode.

I'll expand on this post and post the part II soon.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Don » 14 Jun 2008 05:33

http://www.washtimes.com/news/2008/jun/ ... -79761847/

Inside the Ring
Bill Gertz (Contact)
Thursday, June 12, 2008

China missile test

China recently conducted a test of its newest submarine-launched ballistic missile, the Julang-2 (JL-2), which will be deployed on Beijing's fleet of new missile submarines, according to U.S. defense officials.

The test launch took place May 29 from a submarine in Bohai Bay, off northern China, and landed in the Yellow Sea.

The missile has an estimated range of about 5,000 miles and represents a new generation of strategic nuclear-capable weapons being outfitted on the Type 094 submarine, dubbed the Jin-class by the Pentagon.

One defense official said the new JL-2 "shares features with the land-based Dong Feng-31 missile," another new Chinese nuclear missile system.

Officials confirmed the JL-2 after it was first reported last week in two Japanese newspapers that quoted Japanese military sources.

"While the U.S. government provides insufficient informational warning about the JL-2's capabilities, Asian sources have long commented it may eventually carry three to four warheads or a number of decoys," said Richard Fisher, a military affairs specialist with the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

"This means that five Type 094 missile submarines could account for over 180 warheads," he said.

Hans Kristensen, a specialist on the Chinese nuclear forces with the Federation of American Scientists, stated that China is expected to deploy its new missile submarines in Bohai because it is easier to protect them in the bay. "From the shallow bay, the Julang-2 missiles could be used to target Guam and Alaska, India, Russia and - at the limit of its range - Hawaii," he stated.

The Pentagon's latest annual report on China's military confirmed for the first time in March that Beijing is building up to five Jin-class submarines, each of which will be armed with 10 to 12 JL-2s, a sharp increase in China's strategic nuclear-warhead arsenal.

Defense officials also recently disclosed, as reported in this space earlier, that the JL-2 could be deployed with an anti-satellite warhead capable of killing U.S. satellites, similar to the land-based missile that knocked out a Chinese satellite in a January 2007 test.

U.S. officials also said new missile submarines likely will be deployed at the new southern submarine base at Hainan Island.

China's military so far is balking at U.S. efforts to hold talks on strategic nuclear weapons despite appeals from the Pentagon.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby VinodTK » 14 Jun 2008 21:27


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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2008 21:59

excellent article. every line is a must read for whoever visits this thread.
thanks for posting this.

its not empty fear mongering we are indulging in here.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rajrang » 15 Jun 2008 05:59

Singha,

What is the excellent article you are referring to?

Raj

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rajrang » 15 Jun 2008 06:06

Vivek,

I agree with your comments about DBO. It is also possible that this together with the establishment of more air bases in Ladakh and AP, moving Su-31s to Tezpur etc. are India's response to the sudden revelations about the superior transport infrastructure that the Chinese have built near their borders with India. Both the Chinese infrastructure and India's airbases will be threatened by opposing air and missile forces if war breaks out.

Raj

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2008 07:42

sudden revelations

it would be sudden only if we were drunk or asleep at the wheel. roads hacked out
in tibet can't be done overnight, esp good all weather roads. satellite imagery should
have alerted us the moment any big project starts up there and I believe our spooks
dutifully reported all this upward.

it must have been for 'political reasons' this was suppressed until the point of imminent
danger was reached, India always like to stick its neck down and hope the threat will
go away if we make dharmic and peaceful moves.

finally even the somnolent and panchsheel punchdrunk UPA was jolted into action
and forced into urgent action - losing a border war will sure get them kicked out
in next elecshun.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby abhischekcc » 15 Jun 2008 14:34

Here is the report on China attacking DBO 24 times:

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-06-02-voa36.cfm

Stobdan says India has been avoiding confrontations with China, and says the recent problems in Tibet were an immediate concern.

There have been limitations to what we could do, when the recent riots took place in Tibet," Stobdan said. "We could not stand up behind the Tibetans to interfere in China's internal issues. But I think strengthening your own borders furthers the implications of what is happening there. "

Adding that China made 24 attempts to take hold of the Dalulatbeg air base during the last India-Pakistan conflict in Kargil, Stobdan says India has awakened late to the problem.

"On the other side there are 13 such projects going on," Stobdan said. "Modernization of airports and creating more infrastructure. This has been going on for a very long time on the Chinese side. The Indian side has woken up very late.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby G Subramaniam » 16 Jun 2008 00:39

abhischekcc wrote:Here is the report on China attacking DBO 24 times:

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-06-02-voa36.cfm

Stobdan says India has been avoiding confrontations with China, and says the recent problems in Tibet were an immediate concern.

There have been limitations to what we could do, when the recent riots took place in Tibet," Stobdan said. "We could not stand up behind the Tibetans to interfere in China's internal issues. But I think strengthening your own borders furthers the implications of what is happening there. "

Adding that China made 24 attempts to take hold of the Dalulatbeg air base during the last India-Pakistan conflict in Kargil, Stobdan says India has awakened late to the problem.

"On the other side there are 13 such projects going on," Stobdan said. "Modernization of airports and creating more infrastructure. This has been going on for a very long time on the Chinese side. The Indian side has woken up very late.



Why was the chinese mini war during kargil covered up

If so, it speaks rather well of Indian capabilities of being able to blunt the chinese even when occupied by TSP

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Anurag » 16 Jun 2008 00:44

I know, Im asking the same question. What is the strategic purpose of blacking out these attempts made by the PLA. I don't understand at all!

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Paul » 16 Jun 2008 02:26


To split China is the essence - the Dalai Lama betrayed southern Tibet bound to trigger military confrontation between China and India

June 4, "The Times of India," said the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled the first time that Arunachal Pradesh (China Southern Tibet) in Tawang is "a part of India to accept the Dalai Lama in" The Times of India "The reporter said in an exclusive interview, according to 1914 Simla Treaty and the demarcation of the McMahon Line is a legitimate That is to say, Arunachal Pradesh (China Southern Tibet) region is" a part of India. " In 03, the Dalai Lama also claimed that the area belongs to Tibet. Now completely abandon the basic national stand, reduced to out-and-out traitors!

An illegal organization of Tibetan exiles in India, why can survive for so long, why can around the world have so many sympathizers, the key lies in the nature of splitting China in line with the interests of the Western world only. As the biggest vested interests of India, Jawaharlal Nehru period, have been seeking to Tibet and China as its "buffer" The aim has never stopped. 62 border war, this is a thinking triggered by the expansion. Looking at a recent speech that the Dalai Lama, will no doubt ignite some Tibetan splittist forces of darkness, to split China Yam fire. Links to India in the near future for the opening of the Sino-Indian border near the military airport, India to China - send more troops to the border areas of Bhutan. Maoists and the Nepalese were in the national election victory in the Sino-Indian border on the future of the destabilizing factors are rapidly Increase the Dalai These remarks have also contributed to India's "military confrontation reasons

Clearly, the "peace" flaunted the Dalai clique, with the Olympics approaching, the mad their desperate gamble has entered a frenzied state. Tibet 314 incidents of failure, the dark forces in the West and the Dalai Lama separatist group pushed to a embarrassing situation. In this case, there are dark forces inside and outside support of the "Cangqing will" very likely develop into a split Tibet and split China terrorist organizations. This is bound to the interests of the people of all ethnic groups in Tibet have a far-reaching harm, China must have a clear understanding. .

From our talks with the Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama on the one hand seeking to incorporate the whole territory of Qinghai, Gansu, Sichuan, Xinjiang part of the "Tibet" program, on the one hand is reluctant to give up history, culture, religion, belongs to the Tibet Southern Tibet, with its overseas forces, seeking to split the surface of the mouth have been completely exposed! Of loving the motherland and the broad masses of Tibetan compatriots must clearly understand the nature of the Dalai Lama.

As India, the Dalai Lama took the purpose of self-evident, the Dalai Lama himself into a gift, the other more natural crazy. Indian newspapers have claimed that "China will Wong said that if the region returned to China, then China will abandon original intent of Arunachal Pradesh (China Southern Tibet) the rest of the territorial demands." In the face of China's demand, India to "categorically rejected." Over the same period, Indian newspapers and journals has also been criticized over the past year, the Chinese armed forces in border areas "and the violation of increasingly bold patrol." This speech, on the one hand, India hinted that the Indian occupation of south China's Tibetan region "legitimacy", but hinted that China might give up on Arunachal Pradesh (China Southern Tibet) in the territorial demands. . This is the result of development continue, India confident of China's occupation of southern Tibet, to legitimize. And both sides of this dispute will be tough because of the nationalistic positions into the brink of war.

From another perspective, with China's Qinghai-Tibet railway opened to traffic all of China and Nepal's highways and railway lines also immediately put on the agenda, the Himalayan region's countries and regions, will soon because of economic reasons, the Chinese side of a comprehensive , Including Bhutan and Sikkim region. This side of a direct threat to India's ambitions, India, a state of panic is very normal. This side of a direct threat to India's ambitions, India, a state of panic is very normal. In another point of view, China and Pakistan's railways, China and Myanmar's rail and highway expansion, exacerbated by India from China's "siege" of fear!
As a Chinese speaking, with the full range of the Qinghai-Tibet railway opened to traffic, large-scale build-up troops and logistical support possible, on the border areas of China's military preparations for the better. It should be noted that the fact that, although India in the north of the border build-up of nine Mountain Division, but if a military conflict with China, Pakistan, Myanmar Liang Lei facing the direction of the armored groups breakthrough is fatal. On the contrary, the border areas due to poor traffic conditions, the two sides started in this duel unlikely. Long-range mobile missiles, strategic air force, special forces operations will become the main mode. To a certain extent, 62 of China's border war with the psychological advantage. From a geographical perspective, India will basically defensive.

Set aside the border areas against the Army, China's water resources have also firmly withhold India's Gate of Life. Yarlung Zangbo River alone on the distribution of water resources, sufficient to destroy the Indians nerve!

As for the Indians proud of the Navy Fleet, it is estimated that dare not even pass through the Malacca, let alone peeping of the South China Sea.

Looking at China and India in the southern region of the struggle, it can be said, more faster and better development, is the only way to grasp the initiative in the war.


Dalai Lama on Tibetan betraying the sovereignty of Yugoslavia, on the other hand to remind us, this dark forces of the lackeys of the West, not many hands have been a bargaining chip. And a sell out national interests, national interests, proud of the separatist elements, will eventually be nailed pillar of shame in history!
Chong crown in a huff


PRC perspective on Dalai Lama's statement that Tawang is part of India.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby parshuram » 16 Jun 2008 14:01

Apologies if posted earler . There is an article in This week's India Today {apologies again don't have acccess to Internet edition , if anybdy has please provide the link} of an chinese incrusion in Demchok province of Ladakh . where PLA soilders chased away ITBP soilders and IB officals enquiring about chinki incursion well within indian territory in three armoured veichles.They hurled abuses at indian soilders shouting "Indians Go Back" and took position to fire.

Somehow it sends a chill across my spine about the border build by PLA in recent past . Time is now for indian think ank to act and deal this on priority

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2008 14:12

Demchok is the "uncontested" part of J&K (SE quadrant) that sticks out between Aksai Chin and
Uttaranchal into Tibet (see the map I posted). its where the Indus flows into India.

if they are prowling around even in there, its a very bad sign.

here is the article..thanks for the radar cue.

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... =58&latn=2

Beijing games
Saurabh Shukla
June 13, 2008

Things are not all that quiet on the India-China border despite the laboured bonhomie between the two Asian powers. For the first time after the Sumdorong Chu incident in Arunachal Pradesh in 1987, which almost led to a war, a face-off on the western sector of the vexed boundary in Ladakh has sent shockwaves across the diplomatic and security establishments of the country.

Recently, a major confrontation with the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) of China was averted by the timely intervention of senior officers from an Indian patrol team.

The incident took place on May 16 inside the Line of Actual Control (LAC) on the western sector of India-China boundary at Demchok, northeast of Ladakh.

Insiders say PLA soldiers chased away Indian Intelligence Bureau (IB) personnel, who were verifying claims of Chinese intrusions near the Chardung-Nillung junction on the LAC.

The IB team was accompanied by the army and Indo-Tibetan Border Police soldiers, who were closely engaged and followed by the Chinese patrols in three vehicles.

Chinese soldiers, say sources, even hurled abuses and shouted, “Indians go back.” They assumed position to fire at the Indians near the Chardung nullah.

The Chinese then called another patrol party and chased the Indian groups. This border drama, which could have escalated into a clash with dangerous diplomatic consequences, unfolded at a time when the relationship between the two countries was passing through a ‘blow hot, blow cold’ phase.

The seriousness of this border skirmish can be judged from the fact that in 1967, it was an accidental firing at Nathula that led to a war between the two neighbours.

“The Chinese provoked our soldiers. They even shouted at us, followed us, and then took position to fire at our men.
We have sent a report to the officials concerned,” says a Home Ministry official.

Indian officials say that by asking Indian soldiers to vacate their own territory, Chinese troops have violated all norms. Under the broad understanding reached by the two sides, even if there is proximity during patrolling, they are not supposed to engage each other.

The Chinese intrusion was against the diplomatic mechanism that had been set up to avoid such incidents.

The two countries had agreed to maintain peace on the LAC through an agreement in 1993, followed by an agreement on confidence building measures along the border to prevent conflict-like situations.

The present face-off is a clear violation of the treaty.

Sources say that the confidential report on the incident reveals that the Chinese troops had written abuses directed at Indians on trees in the region.

“How can the Government say there is no tension on the India-China boundary? Such incidents can escalate into a conflict situation. It needs to be taken seriously and tackled by holding more border level meetings and then taking it to a political level,” says former army chief General V.P. Malik.

Last year, India Today first reported the Chinese intrusions into Indian territory in Sikkim. Close to 400 such incidents have occurred in the last three years. And things have not improved.

Despite India’s diplomatic protests, the Chinese intrusions have only increased. This year alone, 90 intrusions have been reported to the Government by various security and border agencies. India has been repeatedly complaining to Beijing.

In some cases, the intrusions were extremely provocative. In April this year, Chinese troops came 12 kilometres inside Maja in Arunachal Pradesh.

“We don’t know about this incident, but most of this area is no man’s land and there is no clear demarcation, so such incidents occur. But we are trying to resolve the issue through a border talks mechanism,” a Chinese diplomat told India Today.

Sources say that the intelligence agencies reported the matter to the Foreign Office, which has maintained silence over the issue, though such cases are a violation of the agreement between the two nuclear powers.

While government sources did not want to officially comment on the incident, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee raised the issue, also citing the intrusions in Sikkim, at the official meeting in Beijing.

Line of conflict

* The incident is a violation of the 1993 India-China agreement on peace and tranquility on the Line of Actual Control.
* Ninety incidents of intrusions by Chinese soldiers have been reported this year alone.
* The dispute between the two countries involves the longest contested boundary in the world.

The Chinese leadership, however, responded with the lame excuse that both countries held differing perceptions on the boundaries.

Still, the question is: why did Mukherjee, who had met his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi only a month ago at a trilateral meeting, go to Beijing without a substantive agenda?

The Chinese, who are known as protocol perfectionists, gave a cold welcome to Mukherjee. The Indian minister was not given an audience with President Hu Jintao.

Premier Wen Jiabao cancelled his talks with Mukherjee, saying he had to make an urgent visit to earthquake-affected areas, even though the meeting was fixed much in advance.

Mukherjee’s meeting with Vice-President Xi Jinping, who, it is believed, is being groomed to take over from Hu in 2012, was the only saving grace.

The Indian minister was not just snubbed. He was denied an opportunity to raise the intrusion issue with the highest levels of Chinese leadership, given the fact that he had already discussed it with his Chinese counterpart Jiechi when they had met on the sidelines of the trilateral meeting.

Even before Mukherjee had left Delhi, the governor of the quake-hit Sichuan province backed out after agreeing to be in the capital with the Indian external affairs minister to receive relief materials.

Instead, the vice-governor, who is much junior according to protocol, was deputed by the Chinese Government to accept relief materials from Mukherjee.

“All these incidents are a part of growing muscle-flexing by the Chinese against India,” says strategic analyst Brahma Chellaney. The last two years have seen the Chinese in a belligerent position. “Going by the series of high level visits by Indian leaders, we seem overzealous to please the Chinese,” Chellaney adds.

The dispute between the two countries involves the longest contested boundary in the world. China claims 92,000 sq km of Indian territory.

On the other hand, the Indian contention is that China is in possession of approximately 38,000 sq km of Indian territory in Jammu & Kashmir under the so-called China-Pakistan Boundary Agreement of 1963. Pakistan also illegally ceded 5,180 sq km of Indian territory in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir to China.

The two sides held about a dozen rounds of boundary negotiations but the talks made little progress. The big question is: why would China want to resort to such offensive tactics at a time when the country needs India’s support most?

The Beijing Olympics, scheduled to be held next month, are already mired in a controversy as the host country faces flak for its oppressive activities in Tibet.

According to analysts, the first reason is the Chinese assessment that there is a weak leadership in India, incapable of taking important diplomatic decisions.

Beijing wants the border dispute to linger on and is bullying India. It also thinks that Delhi is busy cosying up to Washington. With Delhi going on a backfoot on various issues such as Tibet, and not being able to leverage its relationship with Taiwan, China now believes that it has got what it wanted from India. So there is little left for India to bargain with China.

Such brinkmanships help China militarily. With no demarcation of the border, over three lakh Indian soldiers remain tied down to the India-China border, which is also a drain on India’s economic capabilities.

It affects India’s efforts to project itself as a military power in the region.

To keep the friendship intact, China should respect India’s territorial integrity and India, on its part, needs to raise the issue at the highest levels of Chinese leadership. Small sparks on the border can lead to a big fire that the two neighbours may find very difficult to contain.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Jun 2008 14:25

I hypothesize that China is actually much more scared of India than we imagine. Our rise in international stature, despite the worst attempts of the snivelling pak establishment and their attack-dogajehadies have not managed to hold us back. Pak is now reeling and on the back foot, sooner or later Unkil will give them a serious slapping. Where does that leave Chinese 'defenses' of its far west and south west? the PLA have probably therefore decided to intervene more actively to try and scare us back to our old dhoti-clad ways before its too late.

the kargil/DBO revelation is interesting, i seem to recall official chinese pronouncements of 'restraint' and 'internal matter' and a general standoffish attitude towards pakistan

regardless of chinese threats, re-activating Daulat Beg Oldi, Chushul and Fukche are important for the well being of the Indian Army and a great relief to our logistics assets - will probably start to lower 'unit costs' of supply in the theatre. Rapid induction of troops remains a red herring due to altitude acclimitation issues, and tactical use of the airfields is impractical

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2008 14:34

dont we have secure operating areas along the indus and zanskar rivers near Leh
wherein good number of troops can be kept acclamatized and ready for deployment?
DBO is 15000ft. Leh is 10500ft. 15000ft is not too bad...above 20K is where things
get really bad.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Jun 2008 15:10

altitude effects on the human body CANNOT be underestimated. We have had debates on BRF in the past on this.

In short...

anything over 10,000 ft is bad without conditioning, trust me on this! at 15,000 ft, without acclimitisation, a normally fit person will definitely suffer from altitude sickness and shortness of breath and be incapable of serious exertion until his body has eventually stabilised over a period of a week.

above 18,000 ft is fatal unless really well prepared

mountaineers talk of only climbing 1000 ft a day and adjusting slowly before climbing further, others can elaborate

we lost many troops in 62 through pulmonery oedima (spelling?) because we went from sea level up in few hours by airlift

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby SGupta » 16 Jun 2008 15:11

I really do hope that China is scared of India but I would contend this will not remain the situation with an imbalance in defense spending of $197 billion to $20 billion (I forget the number but it probably around here).

Regards,
Sanjay

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby parshuram » 16 Jun 2008 15:15

well pal Don'tyou feel that it looks like an lame excuse to ignore the fact that despite that fact that incursions are taking place more regularly across all the border now and we are convincing ourselves that becuase chinese are scared they are doing this . the bottom line is i guess they are doing it and they are unpunished. weak poitical leadership or whatever chinki's are now siting righ on our head and still we are doing nothing.Forget offensive the message going across we an't ecev defend or don't have will to do so , why are we not doing tit for tat in Aksai chin ?

.Re activation of age old airbases along chinese border . Is this purely do to the fact that chinese had done border incursions aor IB/IA is realy seeing some thing big across the border. If this nightmare comes true are we prepared? I guess we are sidelining a grave concern here,it need to be addressed and addressd quickly and with stong voice else we are not preenting our selvese any different from what we did in 1962.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 16 Jun 2008 16:34

I don't know why Pranab Mukherjee keep going like a beggar to China and Pakistan, with nothing to show for the visit. Does this man realise that he represents the people of India, or is he sleep-walking? The Pakistanis revel in the attention and importance they think is accorded to them by the visit of the Indian foreign minister. The Chinese make it a point to rebuff him, so as to cut India down to size. What do these visits actually gain for India?

It seems that the Congress leaders, basically courtiers with no mass following, are unable to get rid of the ideologies of the past, because their entire USP is based on these and if they change their ideology, they risk becoming irrelevant in India.

So they do not admit that their philosophy of "we mean no one any harm" and "peace at any cost" has run its course and the neighbours have begin to mock it. You cannot have friendship with neighbours till they hold you in awe or respect. But the Congress foreign policy of non-confrontation and flattery attracts nothing but contempt and derision. Everytime this Indian foreign minister goes abroad, he reduces India's stature.

Also, there seems to be a deliberate strategy to keep our army an under-achiever compared to size and resources of the country. We have enough money and manpower and arms market of the world are open to us. However, we simply refuse to increase the size of the army to man the borders effectively. We seem to be in a permanent state of unreadiness for war.

Till these wooly-headed, Nehru-inspired Cognress ideologies of non-violence, moral leadership, and diverting money from arms purchase to "development activities" are alive, India will be like a football that will be kicked around by everybody, even by banana republics like Bangladesh. (Nehur had actually forced the ordinance factories to produce pressure cookers and toys instead of arms. That deranged man therefore had his knickers in a twist when war with China broke out.)

What India needs is a strong military, at least 3 percent of GDP as defence budget and the will to acquire territory of others through war. Only then will India get respect and fear from China. But for that, Congress and whatever it stands for has to die. Only the nationalists can do this.

India will never get respect till it keeps hestiating in firing the first shot. It is time India developed itchy fingers over hair triggers.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby p_saggu » 16 Jun 2008 20:53

The Safety Ring Around Beijing
Image

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 16 Jun 2008 23:16

TOI

LEADER ARTICLE: Together They Stand
16 Jun 2008, 0032 hrs IST, AMULYA GANGULI
r
There are two possible reasons why China may have resiled from its 2005 position not to involve inhabited areas while solving the border dispute with India. One is the steady decline as a nation state of its "all-weather" friend Pakistan. The other is the boost it gets from its ideological allies in India. These include the CPM, which claims to be currently the largest communist party outside the fading socialist bloc.

Pakistan's transformation into a hotbed of terrorism has meant that it is constantly under the American scanner, denying it of any scope for adventurism of the kind, which it undertook in Kargil. But that is not the only reason why Beijing may not regard Islamabad as a useful anti-Indian tool. For, what has also happened is that the earlier seeming parity between Pakistan and India has been destroyed. It was this parity, which China utilised to keep India involved in a South Asian quagmire via its nuclear collaboration with Pakistan.

But ever since India pulled away, first because of its rapid economic growth, and then because of its growing proximity to Washington, China realised that Pakistan was no longer an adequate counterweight to India. What must have been even more unsettling for Beijing than the loss of a trusted cat's paw was America's acknowledgement of India's special status, as is evident from the exception to the nuclear proliferation rules that Washington has made for India's sake in the proposed nuclear deal.

China has always been uneasy about the augmentation of India's stature since it under-mines its position as the Middle Kingdom surrounded by subservient states. While India went out of its way to advocate China's inclusion in the UN in the fifties, Beijing cannot dream of backing India's claims to a Security Council membership since it will add to its status. Jawaharlal Nehru belatedly realised his folly of harbouring a romantic illusion of Sino-Indian friendship in a post-colonial world. As B N Mullick, intelligence chief at the time of the Chinese incursion, wrote in his book, The Chinese Betrayal, Nehru said: "It was wrong to assume that the Chinese undertook this aggression only because they wanted some patches of territory... The real cause was something else... China did not want any country near her which was not prepared to accept her leadership; so India had to be humiliated".

That humiliation was inflicted when both India and China had begun their long climb to great power status. Now, Beijing perhaps feels the need for a further flexing of muscles because India is seemingly outrunning her in some respects. For one, its democracy and multicultural society are earning widespread admiration while totalitarian China evokes more fear than respect. For another, while the world has begun to understand the complexities of the Kashmir situation, especially in the context of Islamic terrorism in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region, all the material improvement in Tibet can no longer hide the prevailing discontent there. Clearly, China believes that it cannot afford to lose ground to India either in the race to be a major power or because of the opprobrium it faces over Tibet. Hence, the reassertion of its claims to Arunachal Pradesh and the stoking of tensions in Sikkim.

In this tussle for supremacy, India is at a disadvantage because China can count on whatever support it can receive from its friends in India. The latter's strenuous efforts to scuttle the nuclear deal is evidently a part of their tactic of undermining India's ambition to secure the "Big 5 plus 1" position at the high table of diplomacy. The CPM has even been candid enough to admit that one of its reasons for opposing the deal is that the resultant proximity to the US will enable America to encircle China with India's help. Even if this is indeed the American objective, such an alliance will also have the potential of curbing China's bellicosity in the north-east, especially in "southern Tibet", as Beijing likes to call Arunachal Pradesh.

Like the Chinese, the Indian communists believe in the untenable "colonial" nature of the McMahon Line, which calls for adjustments although the Chinese have had no hesitation in accepting the same line in Myanmar. Given this stance, it is hardly surprising that in 1962, E M S Namboodiripad had argued, according to Mohit Sen in his book, A Traveller and the Road: the Journey of an Indian Communist, that "the Chinese had entered territory that they thought was theirs and hence there was no question of aggression as far as they were concerned".

Moreover, as anyone who interacted with the "Left" communists in that period would know, it wasn't only the territorial claims of the Chinese which influenced the Indian comrades, but also the standard communist belief in proletarian solidarity which transcended international borders. It is by no means certain that such feelings no longer prevail among at least some of them.

Perhaps the strength of such solidarity can be gauged from the fact that while the undivided Communist Party had split over the varying interpretations of the 1962 conflict, the "Right" communists of those days, orphaned by the

Soviet Union's collapse, are currently as enthusiastic in their opposition to the nuclear deal as the CPM. Apart from the mainline communists, there are also the Maoists, whose loyalty to proletarian unity is even more explicit. China, therefore, has a fair number of admirers in India.

The writer is a political commentator.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby NRao » 17 Jun 2008 00:50

I don't know why Pranab Mukherjee keep going like ................


He wants to be the next PM of India and is filling his resume.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby skganji » 17 Jun 2008 01:08

Indian is cursed with Congress Party. Nehru Inspired, Gandhi Inspired Congress is totally irrelevant in Modern world where Power gives you the respect . The way, Nehru handled the Aksai Chin, China war should be a humiliating lesson for all the Indians. Albeit, Indians still elect Congress again and again to be taught a humiliating lesson. The Onus is on Indians to elect a government which stands by its National interests. Congress party shouldn't have an address by now, if people of India realized the damage it is doing to the country. Whether it is Illegal Immigration from Bangladesh, Terrorism sponsored by Jihadi outfits or constant threat from China, Congress leaders have no answers. They will put Gandhi's ideals on all these Issues, which are not practical solutions to any of the problems India is facing today.... God Bless India.... Hope 2009 elections will bring in a new government that will really deal with ground issues with some wisdom and courage .

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Vivek K » 17 Jun 2008 02:11

So is this the political angst venting forum? :evil:

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 17 Jun 2008 15:03

Chennai center for China studies

http://www.c3sindia.org/

http://www.c3sindia.org/tibet/256/prana ... roductive/

All the high-sounding but identical phrases in successive joint declarations have not stopped the Chinese troops from committing as many as 40 intrusions across the 206-km border between Sikkim and Tibet since January this year and 140 intrusions in 2007 across the 4,057-km long LAC in the western (Ladakh), middle (Uttarakhand, Himachal) and eastern (Sikkim-Arunachal) sectors (not to mention the latest contretemps over ‘Finger Point’.

In China, India is dealing with a determined disputant whose instinctive response, going back to the remote past, regardless of the complexion of those in power, to any kind of challenge to what it construes as its rightful due, has been to make short shrift of it even braving world opinion. China has desisted from any overt aggressive action so far, but India should not count on the situation remaining equable indefinitely.

It will no longer do for India to pretend that more of the same mixture dispensed on previous occasions will keep China eternally at bay. Neither trade ties nor any political or diplomatic advantages need hamstring China from putting an end to the state of suspense and uncertainty on the border on its terms.
Compared to more than $ 650 billion trade with the US, European Union and Japan, divided equally, and $ 1.76 trillion of foreign trade in 2006, the total of $40 billion of trade between China and India as of now, (and targeted to increase to $60 billion by 2010) is something China can very well afford to do without.

There is no compulsion on China to keep relations going on the political plane, just to sign Memoranda of Understanding on sharing of hydrological data of Bramhaputra river in flood season, Protocols of Phytosanitary Requirement for Exporting Grapes and Bitter Gourds from India to China, agreement for exchange of young diplomats and transactions of a similar nature leading the summit meetings to a state of reductio ad absurdum.

Thus, China has hardly anything to lose were it to take a hard line with regard to the ongoing tussle over the border and put India in its place. Before this one thorn on the flesh of both countries, all other minor excitements such as opening a redundant Consulate-General at Guangzhou (within stone’s throw of the already existing Consulate in Hong Kong), handing over the Padma Bhushan scroll to the Chinese Indologist, Ji Xianlin, or being thanked by the Chinese for the smooth passage of the Olympic Torch in New Delhi pale into insignificance The sooner India realises this, the better.

Soft corner

India will, in this light, be well-advised to keep its ears to the ground and reappraise its policy towards its northern neighbour without blinkers or braggadocio. There can be no doubt that China too is doing a similar reappraisal following the Lhasa riots in which it suspects the Dalai Lama has had a big hand. The tone and tenor of news reports coming out of China are indicative of a resentment that the Dalai Lama continues to enjoy a soft corner in India’s political establishment to the detriment of China.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby svinayak » 17 Jun 2008 20:50

skganji wrote:Indian is cursed with Congress Party. Albeit, Indians still elect Congress again and again to be taught a humiliating lesson. The Onus is on Indians to elect a government which stands by its National interests. Congress party shouldn't have an address by now, if people of India realized the damage it is doing to the country.

Have you realised that congress party is manufactured party sustained by foreign powers for the last 80 years. You can read the history of its relationship with external powers.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby ramana » 17 Jun 2008 21:19

Th TOI seems to be interested in promoting and highlighting the PRC moves and blows up Indian miniscule moves out of proportion. I am not saying PRC is not violating the boundaries and GOI making counter moves but TOI seems to be on a mission to exacebrate the tensions. Mini helipads and unpaved runways close to mortar range of the LAC are called out as airbases! The mtn strike divisions are two years away from being even organised let alone fight.
And then the Op-eds read like straight out of the 1962 era. Wonder if a clash is being promoted based on misperceptions just as in 1962.
Back to the future!

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 17 Jun 2008 21:26

I see it as UPAs attempt to avert a clash based on making it clear that we see whats happening and we are very unhappy about it.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 17 Jun 2008 21:36

Ramana, you may have a point. TOI is today in total control of Americans. There is an immense likelihood that the paper is being used by Americans to scare monger Indians into signing the nuclear deal or pull us into their orbit away from China. The same game they played in 1962 when CIA station chief of Delhi mischeviously advised Nehru not to involved Indian airforce in the war. His objective was to let India get screwed big time from China so that it can be pulled into American orbit away from the commies. It is likely that the same game is being played by the Americans today through TOI. I think the decision to allow foriegn investment into Indian newspapers and news channels was a huge mistake on the part of the Vajpayee govt. The goras have infiltrated deep and are using our own papers to carry their agenda against our own country.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby skganji » 17 Jun 2008 22:26

Vivekji, if you think deeply on the Issues , I raised, without any bias to Congress or any other political party you will also realize the damage the party is doing to the country. Whether it was Nehru or it is Manmohan/Sonia, they are simply misinforming the people about Chinese threat, Illegal Immigration from Bangladesh, pathetic record on combating terrorism. How can we deny these basic facts ?.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby ramana » 17 Jun 2008 22:31

Boss this is not the thread nor the forum for this. If you persist might have to warn you. So please dont let me do that. Thanks, ramana

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby skganji » 17 Jun 2008 23:00

Moderator, I will refrain from posting further on my criticism on Indian political parties. I hate to see the warning. Whatever it is, India cannot afford to have bad political decisions which will result in bad geo-political consequences for it. Whoever is in the government, needs to be careful about it.
Vivekji, you are right, we need to get rid of commies from West Bengal . They have totally ignored the Illegal Immigration from Bangladesh and also playing like thugs and goonies and acting against the interests of India.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby G Subramaniam » 18 Jun 2008 07:53

The recent earthquake in Sichuan has cut off many of their supply lines to Tibet and will delay the next chinese invasion by say 6 months or more

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby clay » 18 Jun 2008 16:45

China has no plans to 'encircle' India: ambassador

HONG KONG (AFP) -

China has no plans to try and dominate the shipping lanes of the Indian Ocean, its ambassador to India said in Hong Kong Wednesday.

"We don't have such an intention to establish a chain to encircle India," said ambassador Zhang Yan at a lunch held by the Asia Society in Hong Kong.

"It's not in China's interest to undertake this kind of strategic move. We see India as our partner," he said, adding the speculation on a China policy of encirclement was "unfounded."

China's recent decision to build ports in Myanmar, Pakistan and Sri Lanka has raised suspicion among Indian authorities that it is trying to assert greater control over the important shipping lanes around Asia.

Thousands of Chinese-flagged ships pass through the waters around India every year, laden with goods destined for the lucrative European market.

Zhang added that China does not protect the commercial trips with a military presence and there are no plans to do so.

"We at this stage don't feel there is a need to send a navy ship to accompany our commercial ships in the area," he said.

India's distrust of China has increased in recent years, despite the strengthening commercial relationship between the two emerging Asian giants.

The two countries are still locked in a border dispute which triggered a brief but bloody war 46 years ago, although their diplomatic relationship has improved in recent years.


This is all BS. in no way can the chinks be trusted. India needs to proceed with her defence plans as per her threat perception and safeguard her strategic interests.

Regds, Clay


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