China Military Watch

[Nayak]

Some of my other comments about Bakistan and Cheen was not published.

[jamwal]

I wonder why

[narayana]

They fought to the last man for India

Sacrifices of Brave Hearts,Lost Because of chicken Hearts in Delhi,wish there was a court of enquiry for politicians also.no one took responsibility,except resignation of Mr.Krishna Menon i think

[Jason_B]

US Congress warned of Chinese cyber, space threats

File photo shows Chinese policemen surfing the Internet in Beijing. China has developed a sophisticated cyber warfare program and stepped up its capacity to penetrate US computer networks to extract sensitive information, a US congressional panel has warned.

China has developed a sophisticated cyber warfare program and stepped up its capacity to penetrate US computer networks to extract sensitive information, a US congressional panel has warned.

"China has an active cyber espionage program," the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission said in its annual report to the US Congress. "China is targeting US government and commercial computers."

In its 393-page report, the panel also criticized Beijing for exercising "heavy-handed government control" over its economy and "continuing arms sales and military support to rogue regimes" such as Sudan, Myanmar and Iran.

The commission also issued a warning about China's space program. "China continues to make significant progress in developing space capabilities, many of which easily translate to enhanced military capacity," it said.

"Although some Chinese space programs have no explicit military intent, many space systems -- such as communications, navigation, meteorological, and imagery systems -- are dual use in nature," the commission said.

The commission, which was established by Congress in 2000 to analyze the economic and national security relationship between the two nations, said China was investing heavily in cyber warfare.

"Since China's current cyber operations capability is so advanced, it can engage in forms of cyber warfare so sophisticated that the United States may be unable to counteract or even detect the efforts," the commission said.

It said Chinese hacker groups may be operating with government support.

"By some estimates, there are 250 hacker groups in China that are tolerated and may even be encouraged by the government to enter and disrupt computer networks," the commission said.

It quoted Colonel Gary McAlum, chief of staff for the US Strategic Command's Joint Task Force for Global Network Operations, as saying China has recognized the importance of cyber operations as a tool of warfare and "has the intent and capability to conduct cyber operations anywhere in the world at any time."

"China is aggressively pursuing cyber warfare capabilities that may provide it with an asymmetric advantage against the United States," the commission said. "In a conflict situation, this advantage would reduce current US conventional military dominance."

The commission recalled that unclassified US military, government and government contractor websites and computer systems were the victims of cyber intrusions in 2002 codenamed "Titan Rain" and attributed to China.

The commission made 45 recommendations to Congress including possible "additional funding for military, intelligence and homeland security programs that monitor and protect critical American computer networks."

On the economic front, the commission said "China relies on heavy-handed government control over its economy to maintain an export advantage over other countries."

"The result: China has amassed nearly two trillion dollars in foreign exchange and has increasingly used its hoard to manipulate currency trading and diplomatic relations with other nations," it said.

"Rather than use this money for the benefit of its citizens -- by funding pensions and erecting hospitals and schools, for example -- China has been using the funds to seek political and economic influence over other nations," said Larry Wortzel, chairman of the commission.

Beijing's "continuing arms sales and military support to rogue regimes, namely Sudan, Burma, and Iran, threaten the stability of fragile regions and hinder US and international efforts to address international crises, such as the genocide in Darfur," the commission added.

The commission acknowledged some progress by China, specifically its adherence to non-proliferation agreements and involvement in the six-party talks to dismantle North Korea's nuclear weapons production capacity.

But it criticized China's use of prison labor to produce goods for export and an "information control regime" that it said regulates the print and broadcast media, Internet, entertainment and education.

The Commission also warned that fish imported into the United States from Chinese fish farms "pose a health risk because of the unsanitary conditions" and recommended greater powers for the US Food and Drug Administration.

The report is available on the commission's website at www.uscc.gov.

[Sontu]

precisely, I think this was the very craft used in the vehicular incursions in sikkim.

To me following one is nore suitable for that job!
I heard ..they used kind of Jeep in those incursions.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... Army-1.jpg

[Yogi_G]

^^^
grrrrr.......

that report is by prasun sengupta who is a well known fiction writer better suited in c-grade bollywood flicks. not to mention that over the years he has stolen many of BR members' works without any credit.

don't ever believe a word of what he says ever, and do NOT quote him.

Ok....

Scariest news ever...Chicom planes equipped with KS-172?????? those AWACS killers....
I have always wondered about this...sure your KS-172 missile may have 400 KM range but shouldn't you be needing a Radar with atleast 400 KMS of range in order to be able to target and fire these missiles? If it is possible to get the target information from an AWACS through a data link and then be able to fire this missile then it makes some sense, but I am not sure about this. Experts, please comment.

Wat abt the KS-172...radar range...AWACS question....Cud someone answer that plz?

[nsa_tanay]

I searched Internet and found many sites giving reference to RAW operations in Srilanka, Maldives, pakisthan, Bangladesh,Sikkim,Bhutan, Nepal. But I could not find a single one having the slightest mention of RAW's operations in China. Are you aware of/heard about any of RAW's operation in China , except the 'Nandadevi' (With help of CIA, RAW installed a nuclear listening device) operation(Which was inside Indian border) ?

[Juggi G]

Sino-Indian ties Troubled times ahead
Harsh V Pant

[ramana]

Take a look at this about PRC capabilities in Tibet.

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r2939.html

[kit]

1.A war with china is a 'good possibility'.. far from a 'possibility' a year ago
2.China would choose when and where to start it
3.War with China would mean a simultaneous proxy war with Pakistan
4.The Indian ocean would be a new front in this war
5.History tells India to be cautious when China is trying to look friendly..the sting is not far behind the dragons face.
6.China is already engaged in a asymmetric war with India .. a war which has implications from within India.

[nsa_tanay]

deleted propaganda

[nsa_tanay]

What is this ? How can you delete some thing that is 'true' ? Rather accepting the scope of improvement left in the Army , how can you ignore it.

You must answer.

[Mark Schwartzbard]

1.A war with china is a 'good possibility'.. far from a 'possibility' a year ago
2.China would choose when and where to start it
3.War with China would mean a simultaneous proxy war with Pakistan
4.The Indian ocean would be a new front in this war
5.History tells India to be cautious when China is trying to look friendly..the sting is not far behind the dragons face.
6.China is already engaged in a asymmetric war with India .. a war which has implications from within India.

If fear is the only message that the Beijing can send to India, then it's time for India to arm itself to the teeth. Build more aircraft and subs, and position a few Nuke capable silos near AP. ( same as China does east of AP ). That will send a strong message, clear as day light that India means business.

It's sad to say that due to vested minority political interest India has shot herself in her foot with respect to Nepal, Bangladesh and Srilanka, which might come to bite pretty hard. Get your priorities right with the little ones and the big will follow. (it's easier to drive the message with the smaller ones first )

Remember the chinese have already got Indian attention towards the west, while it slowly gets it's hands on the smaller south asian neighbours. If you loose your sleep on the western front then you may as well loose the east.

[skganji]

I still cannot imagine why India should be afraid of China when we have a huge brave army and strong military. The only thing India should fear is of its politicians. Politicians are ruining the country with their mindless decisions which started with Nehru and which still continues. If India can get its things right in J&K , AP, then china can do nothing to India. Jai Hind, Jai Jawan, Jai Kisan.

[nsa_tanay]

EDITED

[Gerard]

nsa_tanay

I see another moderator has deleted your post. That should make it clear that Chinese propaganda of this sort is not welcome here.

If you check the special forces thread, you will see where Indian SF (thin, wiry) have come out on top in the Botswana desert SF competitions, beating teams of much more muscular SF.
Sheer size clearly does not make a soldier.

Now the Chinese compulsions of 'face' and their attempts to present a certain false image to the world are well known here. That video may be the rage on Chinese internet fora but that has no place here. Clever editing is the realm of psy-ops and this forum is not the place where such psy-ops against India will be found. Those troops you find so lacking have actual battle experience (unlike the others in the video). You cannot come here and simply assert that Indian soldiers are inferior (based on a Chinese propaganda video). Such posts will not remain.

I advise you to lurk a while and read some of the threads in the archives. There you will learn about RAW SFF covert actions in China, physical requirements for the military etc.

[kumar_k]

nsa_tanay.
are you a real chinese citizen or just representing the chinese gov. here.??

believe the moderators.
they are saying the true thing.
unlike you people(due to the Chinese Propaganda, u only see what the gov. wants u 2 c),
we do have access to free media, and so we can see what's really happening around the world,
as a reason of which are views are bound to hurt you.(even though they are real)

[abhischekcc]

One of the real silver lining to this incident is that war between India and China that we were anticipating is less likely now.

The Chinese, face-concious as they are, are unlikely to attack India when the sympathy of the world is with us.

[kumar_k]

One of the real silver lining to this incident is that war between India and China that we were anticipating is less likely now.

The Chinese, face-concious as they are, are unlikely to attack India when the sympathy of the world is with us.

Come On.
We are not in such a dire situation.
Imagining a full scale India - China War was never a reality,
and now the chances are even lesser, bcoz of our nukes.
(Just like the INDIA-pakistan situation.)
The things to fear are medium scale border skirmishes that the chinese might push against us to force us into a compromising and embarassing situation, and chinese strategies at trying to contain our international influence.
That is why we need to scale up our efforts against them, to prevent them from embarassing us at any international front.

JAI HIND.

[vivek_ahuja]

Come On.
We are not in such a dire situation.
Imagining a full scale India - China War was never a reality,
and now the chances are even lesser, bcoz of our nukes.
(Just like the INDIA-pakistan situation.)
The things to fear are medium scale border skirmishes that the chinese might push against us to force us into a compromising and embarassing situation, and chinese strategies at trying to contain our international influence.
That is why we need to scale up our efforts against them, to prevent them from embarassing us at any international front.

JAI HIND.

Sorry to say this but you are so very wrong about the bolded part above.

The Chinese thinking about the need and ways of war is far more sophisticated than yours. If they think they need a war to settle an issue, they will wage a war, and those nukes of ours won't mean diddly squat.

History serves as a precedent for this kind of Chinese thinking, and nukes don't alter that equation very much. Especially the Indian self applied NFU condition serves particularly well as the icing over the cake for fighting a conventional war.

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

One of the real silver lining to this incident is that war between India and China that we were anticipating is less likely now.

The Chinese, face-concious as they are, are unlikely to attack India when the sympathy of the world is with us.

Abhishekcc,

How long will this sympathy issue last?

After that we are back to square one. So I am not sure about the silver lining thing.

JMT and all that.

-Vivek

[kit]

I have been saying about the NFU for some time now.Altering the strategy to first use in any event of conventional/nuclear/biological/chemical/terrorist attacks can be a very effective deterrence by itself.It needs a leadership with spine now, which seems to be lacking.India must and should abandon that old NFU policy which is more suited for sissies.
By the way i feel a assymetric war with China is already underway.If you can see the bigger geopolitical picture and see who is gaining from all the recent events you will know the answer.
Indian politik is in such a way that the chinese know they can get a hold on India from the inside while smiling nicely.Credit goes to their brothers in some indian states.Heaven help us if one of those commies get into any sensitive GOI ministries.

[kumar_k]

Come On.
We are not in such a dire situation.
Imagining a full scale India - China War was never a reality,
and now the chances are even lesser, bcoz of our nukes.
(Just like the INDIA-pakistan situation.)
The things to fear are medium scale border skirmishes that the chinese might push against us to force us into a compromising and embarassing situation, and chinese strategies at trying to contain our international influence.
That is why we need to scale up our efforts against them, to prevent them from embarassing us at any international front.

JAI HIND.

Sorry to say this but you are so very wrong about the bolded part above.

The Chinese thinking about the need and ways of war is far more sophisticated than yours. If they think they need a war to settle an issue, they will wage a war, and those nukes of ours won't mean diddly squat.

History serves as a precedent for this kind of Chinese thinking, and nukes don't alter that equation very much. Especially the Indian self applied NFU condition serves particularly well as the icing over the cake for fighting a conventional war.

-Vivek

Are u Serious abt what u r saying?
Nukes do matter, Infact they matter a lot.
They are one of the best ways of establishing a credible deterrence.

I am sure (i bet others too are sure about this fact.) that china will always think twice, if not a hundred times before launching a full scale war against india.
I mean they will have to risk the destruction (or devastaion) of the entire economic progresses they have so painfully made over these years, (Leave out any international Backlash), and return back to the Mao days. and i am damn sure that the are not so foolish.

what they will do instead is that they will try building up their image in the international sphere, and at the same time will try with their best efforts, to embarass and humiliate India, both economically and strategically.
So that they gain the upper hand in all their disputes with India.

By BBC reporter James Reynold.

The country is still following a famous bit of advice given by Deng Xiaoping in 1991 as the Soviet Empire was breaking up. His advice is known as the
"Twenty-four character directive":

"observing with a cool head, securing our position, dealing with the situation calmly, hiding our capacities and biding our time, being good at defense, and never being in the limelight"

What i have quoted above must prove my facts to you.

If u still have doubts, i am ready to answer .

Jai Hind

[vivek_ahuja]

Nukes do matter, Infact they matter a lot.
They are one of the best ways of establishing a credible deterrence.

Only when there is a willingness to use them first in response to an attack. Otherwise, if the idea is to wait for a first attack on yourself (with nuclear weapons) before responding in kind, then it might be a deterrent to nuclear war, but not to a conventional one. Try and see the difference between the two statements above. That is what I was referring to with the Indian Nuclear NFU condition above.

Basically speaking, out Nuclear forces are not a credible deterrent to avoiding a conventional war with China so long as the NFU applies.

-Vivek

[swapna]

India has a first no use policy and dont know whether China has.If it decides to use Nukes it could obliterate India .India doesn't have even 1/4th of what China has in terms of missiles , Nuclear Subs, Nukes.Even the Second Strike Caability of India as of now is not credible.

[kumar_k]

Nukes do matter, Infact they matter a lot.
They are one of the best ways of establishing a credible deterrence.

Only when there is a willingness to use them first in response to an attack. Otherwise, if the idea is to wait for a first attack on yourself (with nuclear weapons) before responding in kind, then it might be a deterrent to nuclear war, but not to a conventional one. Try and see the difference between the two statements above. That is what I was referring to with the Indian Nuclear NFU condition above.

Basically speaking, out Nuclear forces are not a credible deterrent to avoiding a conventional war with China so long as the NFU applies.

-Vivek

FYI, Even China has a NFU Policy.
and we are not some Mongolia or North Korea.
Even China understands that.

Things have changed a lot since 1962.
Then we used to blindly believe China as our friend(Thanks to CHACHA NAEHRU ).
Now we regard them as our biggest threat.
Look at all our ploicies, most of them are framed keeping CHINA in mind.
And this time we will not be caught off-guard, like last time.
They cannot surprise us this time.
U only have one chance to prove ur TRUSTWORTHINESS.

As far as the NFU goes, it is not a 100% assurance.
And any full scale war is likely to lead to a nuclear war.
Will u stand by ur silly policies if the survival of the nation as a whole comes under question.??

FYI, No two nuclear armed states have ever fought amongst themselves.

[Gerard]

FYI, No two nuclear armed states have ever fought amongst themselves.

1969 - Soviet Union vs China

[vivek_ahuja]

FYI, Even China has a NFU Policy.
and we are not some Mongolia or North Korea.
Even China understands that.

And that basically proves my point. If neither side is going to use Nuclear weapons first, what kind of detterant exists for avoiding conventional war?

Things have changed a lot since 1962.
Then we used to blindly believe China as our friend(Thanks to CHACHA NAEHRU ).
Now we regard them as our biggest threat.
Look at all our policies, most of them are framed keeping CHINA in mind.
And this time we will not be caught off-guard, like last time.
They cannot surprise us this time.

I am not at all sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that they can no longer win a conventional war with surprise? If so, I am not sure where this fits into our current discussion.

As far as the NFU goes, it is not a 100% assurance.
And any full scale war is likely to lead to a nuclear war.
Will u stand by ur silly policies if the survival of the nation as a whole comes under question.??

First of all, calm down. Go through the immense volume of analysis on this thread as well as the Tibet war thread to see the idea of what passes as conventional war in this context. Neither side possesses even a fraction of the resources needed to endanger the "survival of the nation" etc. We are talking about a border war. And neither side will pass that as a condition for laying waste to their own cities. The policies your refer to are not "silly" either. But that is reserved for the Nuclear Discussion thread.

-Vivek

[vivek_ahuja]

FYI, No two nuclear armed states have ever fought amongst themselves.

1969 - Soviet Union vs China

And that too was a border war.

[kumar_k]

FYI, No two nuclear armed states have ever fought amongst themselves.

1969 - Soviet Union vs China

It was not a full scale war.

[kumar_k]

u mistook me.

what i am saying is that China will be using a border war as it's last resort attempt at making things even with INDIA.
That i think, will happen only if we do not give into their demands and coward tactics to incite india.

Instead,
what they intend on doing is.
1.) Build Military presence along TIBETAN Border to deter indian claims on Tawang.

2.)Gain Strategic foothold in S. Asia(Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh, Nepal and Recently Sri Lanka.) to deter INDIA's willpower to raise it's Voice for Tibet and Taiwan(Remember The STRING OF PEARLS THEORY?)

2.)Isolate India strategically and politically, by denying support to INDIA's Requests on International forums, and try to embarass India.(The NSG incident, the indian diplomat's embarassment and Sichuan Indian Relief Aid).

Jai Hind.

[deovratsingh]

India has placed itself in such state by her politicians. NFU bodes well if one has enough conventional strength to deter an aggression against oneself. India can still deter Chinese, in taking any misadventure against Indian interests. In other words if any Chinese war even small, would becomes so costly for Chinese in political, military or economic terms that it would not make any sense for Chinese leadership to take such an adventure.

It is not a very expensive to do that-

1. Strengthen the ground position in Eastern sectors-

A. Raise at least 4 new mountain divisions, highly specialized mountain warfare. Improve the road infrastructures.

B. Deploy enough artillery firepower i.e. by quickly 1000 units of 155 mm 52 caliber guns and 500 Long-range PINAKA systems. Cost 1 to 1.5 billion dollars.

2. Augment our air defense and offense capabilities including long-range radars, Sam units, and cruise missiles. Increase our fighter and bomber units to 65 squadrons, which can be done with 4.5 G fighters costing 45-50 million dollars (e.g. MKI-MIGS, LCAs or Grippen NG) app 25-30 Billions.

3.Increase our Navy' capabilities- Have at least 3 Carrier Groups. Vikramaditya, IAC--Vikrant Group and order a 3rd CVN class carrier (3 Billions aircrafts) with British to be inducted by 2014. Quickly finalize 2nd line of the subs. Total cost 15 Billions.

This all can be accomplished in 10 yrs time frame with will power and good planning. Nuclear weapons have some deterrence value only against use of by your adversaries e.g. Soviets vs. US, India vs. Pakistan.

I think, spending these 50 billion dollars now is worth than war with Chinese and risk dismembering Arunachal Pradesh (which is highly unlikely). I think Chinese would attack and take Arunachal only when they are assured of their victory, i.e. when India is militarily and politically vulnerable.)

Regards,

DSingh.

[kumar_k]

India has placed itself in such state by her politicians. NFU bodes well if one has enough conventional strength to deter an aggression against oneself. India can still deter Chinese, in taking any misadventure against Indian interests. In other words if any Chinese war even small, would becomes so costly for Chinese in political, military or economic terms that it would not make any sense for Chinese leadership to take such an adventure.

Bingo.
That is what i want to say.

Along with all the above measures.
India should also try to build a reputable International image and at the same time must not give into any Chinese pressure or Opressive Strategies, as it is doing now.

Why not oppose the Tibetan claim of the PRC when China itself is not softening on the Tawang and Aksai-Chin issue??

We should not Bend down under any condition.
So That China realises that India is not as unimportant a country as they are currently pretending it to be.

So what if we cannot win a war against the Chinese??
We can surely give them a hard blow they will remember with fear for the next Milleniums.
We must make sure that they are aware of the fact that any Indian Misadventure is bound to send them back from where they started a century ago.(dejavu Zhou-en Lai and Mao Zedong)

Thank You.
And,

JAI HIND.

[Gerard]

Re: Chinese NFU

(a) it does not apply to states that have not signed the NPT
(b) it does not apply to territory they consider Chinese

[kumar_k]

Re: Chinese NFU

(a) it does not apply to states that have not signed the NPT
(b) it does not apply to territory they consider Chinese

It is all the more better.

[ssiva]

CHINESE are light years Ahead -

GUYS ALL SAID AND DONE... ( )


Nothing said, so nothing done.present facts if you want to prove anything.
else keep your muddled thinking at CDF and PDF where it will be much appreciated.

and watch less videos from PLA propaganda dept.
Rahul.

[kumar_k]

Do you really mean we are light years behind the Chinese??

FYI, The Almighty USA had to back off against the Vietnamese.
Same for the Russians in case of Afghans.
It is the Spirit that counts at the end.

IMHO, The Chinese are not that advanced either.
Even they need a lot of modernization.

You really think NSG's reminded u of 1940's !! what a joke
Head count do matter.
I think u are a regular visitor to Paki or Chinese Forums, Your intellect is bound to be questioned .
U hv been brain washed.

To say such things against the NSG commandos would be disgracing the Martyrs of Mumbai and other Bravehearts.

To Seniors.
I think it has become a mindset among many people, to criticise everything indian and underestimate our Defensive capabilities. It is ok to evaluate our shortcomings, but to grossly underestimate our forces and capabilities is surely very very wrong. It demoralises people u influence.

JAI HIND.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Long Live the Martyrs.

Hemant Karkare, Maj. Sandeep Unnikrishnan, Gajendra Singh, Ashok Kamte, Vijay Salaskar, Shashank Shinde, Praksh P. More, Bapusaheb Durugade, Tukaram G. Omble, Balasaheb Bhosale, Arun Chitte, Jaywant Patil, Yogesh Patil, Ambadas Pawar, M. C. Chowdhary, Mukesh B. Jadhav.

[Yogi_G]

Nothing p!ssed me more off than reading your post ssiva...

"light years"??? cud u plz care to prove that Indian military is indeed light years behind China? When you make a statement as derogatory as this you better have your proof lined up and ready....

[Rahul M]

@ ssiva

chinese military strength is like their national animal, the dragon.
both are mythical creatures.

sorry, that was GIGO.

[ssiva]

GUYS.. DON'T live in dreams.
sure, don't. it's bad for you. nightmares are even worse.
Real world is different.
of course, but you won't know that unless you wake up.
No PAKI or NO CHEENI has brain washed anybody's mind.
we have an example right here.
It might sound GIGO but it is very real world.
GIGO works in real world too, all the time !

rest of the post is as usual high on rhetoric, low on facts.
this is not the way to move ahead in BR.
if you think you have a point present facts supporting it or shut up.
and no, statements like 'chinese dragon will gulp me up' is not considered fact around here.
another such post will attract warning.
Rahul.