China Military Watch

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sunny_s » 09 Dec 2008 15:21

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sunny_s » 09 Dec 2008 15:28

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sunny_s » 09 Dec 2008 15:46

The last pic is real good "delivering surprise package INDIAN ARMY style"

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Yogi_G » 12 Dec 2008 04:40

sunny_s wrote:Image
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Last but one pic, green door, part saffron, rest white wall...White, Saffron and Green, hmmm...where have I seen this before? Heck I can never work for the RAW....

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sunny_s » 12 Dec 2008 12:30

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sunny_s » 12 Dec 2008 12:32

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sunny_s » 12 Dec 2008 12:35

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sunny_s » 12 Dec 2008 12:39

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby BajKhedawal » 15 Dec 2008 08:53

Apologies if this is not the correct thread to post this, but to me the following article by our local communist mouthpiece reeks of some subtle commie propaganda.

Other than being impressed with the filmy istyle crashing the window and drilling the terrorist’s brains out (albeit in a make believe situation) Reshma Patil also takes a jab at our “ill equipped” counter terrorism force with her $44,000 comment.

In her last paragraph she also draws an equal equal with India as the dragon is also suffering at the hands of paki terrorists as well. Is it an endeavor to draw the focus away from China’s any association with its proxy weapon (aka puppet Pakistan) against India?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=699ccb23-5ab3-4d51-8445-b8d1ddd7d3a3&MatchID1=4855&TeamID1=6&TeamID2=2&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1223&PrimaryID=4855&Headline=Alarmed+Beijing+stages+the+siege+of+Mumbai

Alarmed Beijing stages the siege of Mumbai

Reshma Patil, Hindustan Times

Beijing, December 14, 2008


Armed men in black rappelled out of a police helicopter within 10 seconds, slithered down a building through a gunfight and explosions, smashed windows and shot ‘terrorists’ to rescue ‘hostages’ trapped in a Beijing hotel on Saturday.

Relax, this was not the real thing.

Neighbouring China has wasted no time to practise a rescue act if the siege of Mumbai ever happened in its capital.

The ‘terrorists’ were really eggs swaying 15 metres away for target practice in an anti-terror drill. And each member of the elite Beijing Special Armed Police Unit (BSAPU), unlike India's cash-strapped counter-terrorism force, was outfitted with arms and equipment worth almost $44,000.

Last week, China’s Public Security Minister Meng Jianzhu told a national coordination team on anti-terrorism that China should ‘seriously learn lessons’ from last month’s attacks on Mumbai, tighten security, and conduct anti-terrorism awareness in primary and middle-schools.

During Saturday’s drill, the police were up against a mock terror attack consisting of explosions and hostages in a hotel. The BSAPU landed on a rooftop, like the commandoes who entered Mumbai’s Nariman House.

“The drill was aimed at preventing terrorist attacks, especially after the Mumbai attack which had definite targets and a careful plan,” Xiao Yong, who heads the BSAPU, was quoted in the State-run Xinhua agency. “We noticed that the terrorists attacked different sites of the city in different ways such as explosions, shooting, kidnapping and a gunfight.”

Xiao said that the Unit, founded in 2005, has a ‘complete and cohesive’ counter-terrorism plan.

China says it faces a terror threat from the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a shadowy group fighting for an independent East Turkestan in remote northwest Xinjiang. China blamed the group, which the United Nations declared a terrorist organisation in 2002, for several attacks in Xinjiang in the run-up to the Olympics. Its members are said to be training on the borders of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby nsa_tanay » 15 Dec 2008 10:42

http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/story.cg ... 1122185509

Satnews Daily
December 12, 2008

Got UAVs, Need Land, Says India Army General


In India, negotiations have started with the state government for the acquisition of land to set up an airstrip in North Bengal, which the army needs close to the Sino-Indian border. Eastern Command Major General, General Staff (MGGS) Munish Sibal stated such at a news conference in Kolkata this week.

The army needed the airstrip somewhere in the Dooars to launch unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for surveillance of the international border. While some land was already available with the army at the spot, more would have to be acquired, Sibal said. In the absence of a suitable launching pad, the UAVs were currently being launched from airports that were also used for civilian purposes, but such activities were facing difficulties. The use of UAVs for surveillance, to carry out the task without risking casualties, has increased. UAVs maintain a watch on incidents along the border in Sikkim by Chinese troops. Sibal said UAVs were also being used in Manipur to monitor the activities of militant groups. (Photo is of the Nishant UAV, developed by DRDO for the Indian Army.)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby nsa_tanay » 15 Dec 2008 11:34

BajKhedawal wrote:Apologies if this is not the correct thread to post this, but to me the following article by our local communist mouthpiece reeks of some subtle commie propaganda.

Other than being impressed with the filmy istyle crashing the window and drilling the terrorist’s brains out (albeit in a make believe situation) Reshma Patil also takes a jab at our “ill equipped” counter terrorism force with her $44,000 comment.

In her last paragraph she also draws an equal equal with India as the dragon is also suffering at the hands of paki terrorists as well. Is it an endeavor to draw the focus away from China’s any association with its proxy weapon (aka puppet Pakistan) against India?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=699ccb23-5ab3-4d51-8445-b8d1ddd7d3a3&MatchID1=4855&TeamID1=6&TeamID2=2&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1223&PrimaryID=4855&Headline=Alarmed+Beijing+stages+the+siege+of+Mumbai

Alarmed Beijing stages the siege of Mumbai

Reshma Patil, Hindustan Times

Beijing, December 14, 2008


Armed men in black rappelled out of a police helicopter within 10 seconds, slithered down a building through a gunfight and explosions, smashed windows and shot ‘terrorists’ to rescue ‘hostages’ trapped in a Beijing hotel on Saturday.

Relax, this was not the real thing.

Neighbouring China has wasted no time to practise a rescue act if the siege of Mumbai ever happened in its capital.

The ‘terrorists’ were really eggs swaying 15 metres away for target practice in an anti-terror drill. And each member of the elite Beijing Special Armed Police Unit (BSAPU), unlike India's cash-strapped counter-terrorism force, was outfitted with arms and equipment worth almost $44,000.

China says it faces a terror threat from the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a shadowy group fighting for an independent East Turkestan in remote northwest Xinjiang. China blamed the group, which the United Nations declared a terrorist organisation in 2002, for several attacks in Xinjiang in the run-up to the Olympics. Its members are said to be training on the borders of Pakistan and Afghanistan.




"The ‘terrorists’ were really eggs swaying 15 metres away for target practice in an anti-terror drill. And each member of the elite Beijing Special Armed Police
Unit (BSAPU), unlike India's cash-strapped counter-terrorism force, was outfitted with arms and equipment worth almost $44,000. "

Does any one know what these $44,000 equipement consists of ?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Rahul M » 15 Dec 2008 11:45

check wiki. the 44,000 comment is straight lifted out of there.

the only instance when chinese forces faced a real terrorist attack they lost 6 men w/o scratching the enemy. I could be off by a number. this was just before the olympics.
link is still there in this thread I think.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Avinash R » 15 Dec 2008 11:51

Actually they lost 16 security personnel.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02160.html

Rahul M wrote:check wiki. the 44,000 comment is straight lifted out of there.

the only instance when chinese forces faced a real terrorist attack they lost 6 men w/o scratching the enemy. I could be off by a number. this was just before the olympics.
link is still there in this thread I think.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Juggi G » 17 Dec 2008 16:15

Russia, China Sign Intellectual Property Agreement
Defense News
Russia, China Sign Intellectual Property Agreement
By NABI ABDULLAEV
Published: 15 Dec 20:13 EST (01:13 GMT)

Russia and China have signed an agreement to protect intellectual property in the field of military technical cooperation, an act meant to stop China from copying Russian weapons designs.

The document was signed Dec. 11 during a visit by Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov to Beijing, the 13th meeting of the bilateral commission for technical and military cooperation and the first in three years.

A source in the Russian Foreign Ministry said Moscow insisted on such a meeting during President Dmitry Medvedev's visit to China in May and the visit of Wen Jiabao, chairman of the Chinese State Council, to Moscow in October.

Russian officials have accused China, the biggest importer of Russian arms in the 1990s, of replicating the designs of Russian weapon systems and aircraft. The most prominent scandal unfolded over the Chinese analog of the Russian Su-27 fighter (NATO codename Flanker), called the J-11B.

In 1995, Russia and China signed a contract for the licensed assembly of 200 Su-27CK fighters under the codename J-11 in China. Russia supplied about half of the assembly kits between 1998 and 2004, when China refused the remaining ones. Chinese media have reported on the creation of the J-11B fighter with a locally developed engine and radar.

Russian defense analysts have warned that China may edge out Russia from the international arms market by offering cheaper versions of popular Russian defense systems. They also note that China is buying increasingly fewer Russian arms, yet consistently demanding to buy the more advanced weapons sold by Moscow.

It is unlikely that this intellectual property agreement will stop China from copying Russian arms, :roll: :roll: but Russia will have more leverage to demand that China stop re-exporting its copies to other countries, said Konstantin Makiyenko, a defense analyst with the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a think tank in Moscow.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Anshul » 17 Dec 2008 16:39

The Russians have resigned to the fact that the chinese are better at reverse engineering and bulk production.IPR doesn't matter for the commies.The likes of GM and Toyotas know that and have accepted it.The Russians may well outsource the fabrication of a lot of defence equipment to Chinese state owned corps to ensure faster delivery.The commies will continue to run parallel production lines.IPR be damned.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Avinash R » 17 Dec 2008 22:12

Doubt Arises in Account of an Attack in China
By EDWARD WONG
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/world ... yt&emc=rss
September 29, 2008

KASHGAR, China — Just days before the Olympic Games began in August, a truck plowed into a large group of paramilitary officers jogging in western China, sending bodies flying, Chinese officials said at the time.

They described the event as a terrorist attack carried out by two ethnic Uighur separatists aimed at disrupting the Olympics. After running over the officers, the men also attacked them with machetes and homemade explosives, officials said. At least 16 officers were killed, they said, in what appeared to be the deadliest assault in China since the 1990s.

But fresh accounts told to The New York Times by three foreign tourists who happened to be in the area challenge central parts of the official Chinese version of the events of Aug. 4 in Kashgar, a former Silk Road post in the western desert. One tourist took 27 photographs.

Among other discrepancies, the witnesses said that they heard no loud explosions and that the men wielding the machetes appeared to be paramilitary officers who were attacking other uniformed men.

That raises several questions: Why were the police wielding machetes? Were they retaliating against assailants who had managed to obtain official uniforms? Had the attackers infiltrated the police unit, or was this a conflict between police officers?


“It seemed that the policeman was fighting with another policeman,” one witness said. All of the witnesses spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of running afoul of the Chinese authorities.

Chinese officials have declined to say anything more about the event, which was the first in a series of four assaults in August in which officials blamed separatists in the Xinjiang autonomous region. The attacks left at least 22 security officers and one civilian dead, according to official reports.

On Aug. 5, the party secretary of Kashgar, Shi Dagang, said that the attack the previous day on the police officers, which also injured 16, was carried out by two Uighur men, a taxi driver and a vegetable seller. The Uighurs are a Turkic Muslim group that calls Xinjiang its homeland and often bridles at Han Chinese rule.

One man drove the truck, Mr. Shi said, and the other ran up to the scene with weapons. The attackers, who were arrested, had each tossed an explosive and when they were captured had a total of nine unused explosive devices, machetes, daggers and a homemade gun, he said.

He never mentioned attackers in security uniforms. Neither did reports by Xinhua, the state news agency. One publication, the North American edition of a Hong Kong newspaper, Ming Pao, did, citing police officials in Xinjiang, who now refuse to elaborate on the events.

Chinese officials have long sought to portray violence in Xinjiang as a black-and-white conflict, with separatist groups collectively known as the East Turkestan Islamic Movement carrying out attacks. Officials cite the threat of terrorism when imposing strict security measures on the region.

But the ambiguities of the scene described by the witnesses suggest that there could be different angles to the violence. When asked whether terrorists were involved, a Uighur man who on Friday drove past the scene of the attack said, “They say one thing, we say something else.” Other Uighurs say the attackers were acting on their own, perhaps out of a personal grievance.

The three witnesses said they had seen the events from the Barony Hotel, which sits across the street from a compound of the People’s Armed Police, China’s largest paramilitary force, and another hotel outside of which the attack occurred.

One tourist took photographs, three of which were distributed by The Associated Press in August. He showed 24 others to The Times.

At around 8 a.m. on Aug. 4, the photographer was packing his bags by the window when he heard a crashing sound, he said. When he looked up, he said, he saw a large truck career into a group of officers across the street after having just hit a short yellow pole.

Chinese officials said later that the truck had barreled into 70 officers jogging away from the compound.

The photographer said that the truck then hit a telephone or power pole and slammed into the front of the other hotel, the Yiquan, across the street. A man wearing a white short-sleeve shirt tumbled from the driver’s side, he said.

“He was pretty injured,” the photographer said. “He fell onto the ground after opening the door. He wasn’t getting up. He was crawling around for four or five seconds.”

The photographer raced into the hallway to get his traveling companions, a relative and a friend, from another room.

The two others had also heard the crash and were already in the hallway. All three dashed to the window in the photographer’s room. The photographer said he had been gone for about a minute. Back at the window, he said, he saw no sign of the truck driver.

The friend said: “The first thing I remember seeing was that truck in the wall in the building across the street. I saw a pile of about 15 people. All their limbs were twisted every which way. There was a gentleman whose head was pressed against the pavement with a big puddle of blood.”

“I remember just thinking, ‘It’s surreal,’ ” he said. “I had this surreal feeling: What is really happening?”

The tourists said the scene turned even more bizarre.

One or two men dressed in green uniforms took out machetes and began hacking away at one or two other men dressed in the same type of uniforms on the ground.

“A lot of confusion came when two gentlemen, it looked like they were military officers — they were wearing military uniforms, too — and it looked like they were hitting other military people on the ground with machetes,” the friend said.

“That instantly confused us,” he said. “All three of us were wondering: ‘Why are they hitting other military people?’ ”


The photographer grabbed a camera for the first time and crouched down by the window. His first photograph has a digital time stamp of 8:04 a.m., and his last is at 8:07 a.m. The first frames are blurry, and the action is mostly obscured by a tree. But it is clear that there are several police officers surrounding one or more figures by the sidewalk.

The photographer said that there had been two men in green uniforms on their knees facing his hotel and their hands seemed to be bound behind their backs. Another uniformed man began hitting one of them with a machete, he said.

“The guy who was receiving the hack was covered in blood,” he said. “A lot of the policemen were covered in blood. Some were walking around on the street pretty aimlessly. Some were sitting on the curb, in shock I guess. Some were running around holding their necks.”


The friend recalled a slightly different version of the event. He said he had seen two uniformed men with machetes hacking away at two men lying on their backs. “I do kind of remember one of them moving,” he said. “He was definitely injured but still kind of trying to squirm around.”

The relative also saw something different. He said a man in a green uniform walked from the direction of the truck. “A policeman who wasn’t injured ran over and started hitting him with a machete,” the relative said. “He hit him a few times, then this guy started fighting him back.”

After being hit several times by the machete, the uniformed man fell down, and at least one other police officer came over to kick him, the relative said.

It became clear to the tourists that the men with machetes were almost certainly paramilitary officers, and not insurgents, because they mingled freely with other officers on the scene.

While all this was happening, the three tourists said, a small bang came from the truck. It sounded like a car backfiring, the friend said. Black smoke billowed from the front of the truck.

The machete attack lasted a minute or two, the tourists said. One uniformed man then handed his machete to another uniformed man who had a machete, the friend said. One of the photographs shows a man walking around clutching two machetes in one hand. Another photograph shows a uniformed man carrying a rifle with a bayonet, a rare weapon in China.

Other officers were trying to disperse civilian onlookers, the tourists said. One of the officers saw the photographer with his camera in his hotel room window, the tourists said.

For about five hours after that, police officers locked down the hotel and went room to room questioning people, the tourists said. They seemed unthreatening, the tourists said, but they kept asking about photographs and checking cameras.

“They asked if we took any pictures; we said no,” the relative said. The tourists had stuffed the camera into a bag. “They asked if we sent any e-mails. I said no.”

The photographer said that while at breakfast, he saw white body bags on gurneys being wheeled to vans. In the afternoon, when people were finally allowed to leave the hotel, workers were spraying down the street with hoses, he said.

The truck was gone. Except for a bent pole across the street, there was no sign that anything had happened.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby wrdos » 19 Dec 2008 08:10

reverse engineering is simply the first step of industrialization. To see the industrial hitory of Japan until the end of 1970s and South Korea even in today, tons of examples are there.

Even for Russia itself, a very long list is overthere too. Like cameras from Leica, contax and Nikon, cars from Germany and Italy, trucks from America, the Russian copies almost every popular Western products through their industrial history.

And aeroplanes are not exceptions at all.

Anshul wrote:The Russians have resigned to the fact that the chinese are better at reverse engineering and bulk production.IPR doesn't matter for the commies.The likes of GM and Toyotas know that and have accepted it.The Russians may well outsource the fabrication of a lot of defence equipment to Chinese state owned corps to ensure faster delivery.The commies will continue to run parallel production lines.IPR be damned.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Avinash R » 19 Dec 2008 11:55

China's '50-cent party' posters

By Michael Bristow
BBC News, Beijing
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/a ... 783640.stm

China is using an increasing number of paid "internet commentators" in a sophisticated attempt to control public opinion.

These commentators are used by government departments to scour the internet for bad news - and then negate it.

They post comments on websites and forums that spin bad news into good in an attempt to shape public opinion.


Chinese leaders seem aware that the internet - the only public forum where views can be freely expressed - needs close attention.

China's Communist Party leaders have long sought to sway public opinion by controlling what the media can report.

That policy was extended to the internet, and many websites are blocked by a system sometimes dubbed the "great firewall of China".

Rumours and opinions

But cyberspace - where views can be expressed instantly and anonymously - is not as easy to control as traditional news outlets.

Comments, rumours and opinions can be quickly spread between internet groups in a way that makes it hard for the government to censor. So instead of just trying to prevent people from having their say, the government is also attempting to change they way they think.

To do this, they use specially trained - and ideologically sound - internet commentators.

They have been dubbed the "50-cent party" because of how much they are reputed to be paid for each positive posting (50 Chinese cents; $0.07; £0.05).

"Almost all government departments face criticism that is beyond their control," said Xiao Qiang, of the University of California at Berkeley.

"There is nothing much they can do, other than organise their own spinning teams to do their public relations," said the journalism professor, who monitors China.

Spin machine

A document released by the public security bureau in the city of Jiaozuo in Henan province boasts of the success of this approach.

It retells the story of one disgruntled citizen who posted an unfavourable comment about the police on a website after being punished for a traffic offence.

One of the bureau's internet commentators reported this posting to the authorities within 10 minutes of it going up.

The bureau then began to spin, using more than 120 people to post their own comments that neatly shifted the debate.


"Twenty minutes later, most postings supported the police - in fact many internet users began to condemn the original commentator," said the report.

These internet opinion-formers obviously need to show loyalty and support to the authorities. They also need other skills, as a document from the hygiene department in the city of Nanning in Guangxi province makes clear.

"[They] need to possess relatively good political and professional qualities, and have a pioneering and enterprising spirit," the document said.

They also need to be able to react quickly, it went on.

'Tens of thousands'

The practice of hiring these commentators was started a couple of years ago by local governments which found it hard to control public opinion.

They could not rely on Beijing to monitor and block every single piece of news about their localities, so they came up with their own solution.

Internet commentators have now become widespread, according to experts. Some estimate that there are now tens of thousands of them.

There are also reports that special centres have been set up to train China's new army of internet spin doctors.

Their job is more important than it would be elsewhere in the world.

"Politically, the internet is more important in China than in other societies because it's the only public space where people can express themselves," said Professor Xiao.

That is a point that has not escaped Chinese President Hu Jintao.

When he chatted online in an internet forum earlier this year he said it was important to set up "a new pattern of media guidance" for the internet.

China's teams of state-sponsored commentators have a lot of work ahead of them.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Rishirishi » 23 Dec 2008 05:35

We suspect we have such bloggers on BR as well. :)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sivabala » 23 Dec 2008 05:45

Rishirishi wrote:We suspect we have such bloggers on BR as well. :)


K_Reddy's reply in the thread "PRC Economy News and Discussions-II" on 15 Dec 2008 at 05:48 am, makes a strong case to believe so.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby abhischekcc » 23 Dec 2008 09:23

Believe me, Chinese discussion moderators are nowhere near as sophisticated as some of the others we have on this forum (and off it too) :)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby nsa_tanay » 23 Dec 2008 20:59

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=27.4383932&lon=89.197526&z=17&l=0&m=a&v=2

I saw this piece of construction inside Bhutan. And some one marked it as 'Chinese Installation'.
Is any body aware of it ?

Also Does any one have satellite picture of 'Dolam plateau' in Bhutan ?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Rishirishi » 26 Dec 2008 06:29

abhischekcc wrote:Believe me, Chinese discussion moderators are nowhere near as sophisticated as some of the others we have on this forum (and off it too) :)


Well we have a few Chinease on BR, who are always advocation for China. A asked one of them for a simple "proof" that they were not connected to the Chinese Gov. All they had to do was to post 5 critical posts of the Chinease Gov, its forigin policy and the communist party.

They could choose the topic. None of them replied.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby abhischekcc » 26 Dec 2008 14:38

>>They could choose the topic. None of them replied.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

I think we can have a separate thread on how to deal with Chinese forum moderators. Most of them are so stupid - they remind me of Sagarika Goshh of the you-know-which channel. :mrgreen:

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 26 Dec 2008 16:55

Enter the Dragon!

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/26/ ... 230271860/

Chinese naval fleet sails to fight piracy
Published: Dec. 26, 2008 at 1:11 AM
BEIJING, Dec. 26 (UPI) -- A three-ship fleet will comprise China's first far away overseas naval mission since 1949 to fight piracy off the coast of Somalia, officials said.

As the fleet, led by flagship destroyer Wuha, prepared to set sail Friday on its 3-month mission from the Yalong Bay Navy Base on Hainan Island, the Chinese navy vowed to protect both its own as well as foreign ships from pirates, whose activities in the waters off Somalia have become a major international concern.

Rear Adm. Du Jingchen said the mission, made up of two destroyers, a large supply vessel and about 1,000 navy personnel, is prepared for "complicated and long-term mission" for at least three months, China Daily reported.

Du said the mission would assign a special force of 60 soldiers to escort ships that seek protection. However, he was quoted as saying the navy has no plans to take action against the pirates on land or fire at them unless Chinese vessels, civilian or military, are attacked.

Pirates off the Somalia coast have seized more than 40 vessels this year, and collected $30 million in ransom, the report said.

China's state-run Xinhua news agency said the fleet will join in multinational patrols of the Gulf of Aden.

It said the fleet is equipped with ship-borne missiles, cannon and light weapons, and carries helicopters.

The report said the two destroyers, among China's most sophisticated war vessels, were indigenously designed and manufactured.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Mark Schwartzbard » 26 Dec 2008 18:35

abhischekcc wrote:>>They could choose the topic. None of them replied.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

I think we can have a separate thread on how to deal with Chinese forum moderators. Most of them are so stupid - they remind me of Sagarika Goshh of the you-know-which channel. :mrgreen:


Roll on the floor laughing with Mao !!!!!!

I am not sure whether the chinese want to protect the pirates or the commerical vessels. They seems to be playing both games, supply the pirates with weapons and then fight them at high seas.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby nsa_tanay » 27 Dec 2008 00:36

Iam wrote: I am not sure whether the chinese want to protect the pirates......... supply the pirates with weapons and then fight them at high seas.



Can you post any link or news paper article or any sort of report, that forms the basis of your statement , please ?

Mark Schwartzbard
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Mark Schwartzbard » 27 Dec 2008 03:31

nsa_tanay wrote:Can you post any link or news paper article or any sort of report, that forms the basis of your statement , please ?


There is currently an arms embargo on Somalia,
http://www.sefermpost.com/sefermpost/20 ... roken.html

And your not going to find any article on the internet stating that arms have flown from China to Somali warlords.

To give you a gist of things, read how China is investing in Somalia.
http://www.globalpolitician.com/23194-china-somalia

Now to protect those assets, you need arms as there are several spheres of influence in that country, and those can be tracked to the country of origin, and it's not just Chinese weapons, but also Yemen and a few other countries.

Now like all patriotic chinies posters your going to defend your position which is absolutely fine. But please do some investigating by yourself before asking links/questions.

And it's not somalia, it also these couuntries as well

http://www.stoparmstosudan.org/pages.asp?id=23
Read the section "Extraordinary Risk: China in Somalia"

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Avinash R » 28 Dec 2008 20:05

China bus bomber killed in coffee shop blast-Xinhua
Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:37am EST
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCr ... SPEK263745

BEIJING, Dec 27 (Reuters) - A man suspected of carrying out two bus bombings in the southwest Chinese city of Kunming in July was killed in a blast in a coffee shop earlier this week, the official Xinhua news agency said on Saturday.

Li Yan was killed in Kunming on Wednesday when an ammonia bomb in his backpack unexpectedly went off as he was walking out of the bathroom of the coffee house, Xinhua cited Du Min, vice mayor and head of the city's public security bureau, as saying.

No other people were hurt in the blast, it said.

Traces of the explosives and DNA samples taken from the scene matched those from two bus bombings in the city on July 21, leading police to confirm that Li was behind the earlier bombings, Xinhua said.

They later found ammonia explosives, electric detonators, bullets and a home-made gun in Li's apartment, it said, adding that he had been sentenced to nine years in jail for robbery and other charges in 2001 but was released early for good behaviour.

Two people died and 14 were injured in the July bus bombings, which happened amid a nationwide security clampdown weeks ahead of the Beijing Olympics.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 30 Dec 2008 16:54

Massive Chinese naval ambitions.The PLAN is rapidly expanding both its submarine forces-more than any nation on the planet,aswell as beginning its large sized carrier construction programme.The IN will have to dramatically raise its fleet acquisition plans in all directions,surface,naval air arm and sub fleet apart from launching its won dedicated maritime surveillance/ELINT satellites to meet the Sino-Pak naval threat.A good analysis below.

http://asiasentinel.com/index.php?optio ... Itemid=171

Anchors Aweigh, China

Written by David Fullbrook
A newly resurgent military ponders aircraft carriers

China’s top national defense spokesman, Huang Xueping, lit up the world’s airwaves on December 23 when he said yet again that his country is seriously considering adding an aircraft carrier to its navy, suggesting China remains determined to build a blue-water navy, the first since Admiral Zheng He was reined in by the Ming Dynasty in the 1400s.

But while China’s rising military and economic power might be complimented by boats that send airplanes to fly, it isn’t easy or cheap. And while it would be surprising if China, the world’s third-largest trading nation, ruled out the costly and unwieldy behemoths, carriers have been deployed by every major trading nation during the 20th Century.

Yet two decades of ‘plans’, hints, rumors and the acquisition of three decommissioned Soviet aircraft carriers plus another from the Australian navy have come to nothing. It may well be that China has more logical plans. While certainly it has enough skilled naval architects to design and build such a vessel given China’s large and efficient shipbuilding industry, developing a design for an effective and efficient aircraft carrier may be more challenging.

Cost presents a different challenge. Although China could certainly afford to build a carrier, one would hardly be enough. Figure on a minimum of two, perhaps four, which makes the US Navy’s admirals and defense contractors salivate, because they could persuade the Congress to add billions to the US seagoing military budget. China would have to add aircraft, maybe 40 or 50 per ship, which cost more than aircraft configured only for use on runways on terra firma. The bills soon start adding up. US Navy lobbyists would be demanding that the Congress come up with a matching program.

America’s 10 nuclear-powered Nimitz-class carriers each cost $4.5 billion, for instance. They carry around 90 aircraft each. Britain’s two Queen Elizabeth-class carriers, which each could carry around 50 aircraft when they enter service around 2015, are slated to each cost $2.87 billion. On board a Nimitz carrier 3,000 sailors manage and maintain the ship while another 2,500 aboard keep the aircraft armed and flying. Beyond that, a typical US Navy carrier is surrounded by a flotilla of at least eight protective vessels including two guided missile cruisers, a guided missile destroyer, an anti-submarine destroyer, an anti-submarine frigate, two nuclear attack submarines and at least one combined ammunition/supply/oiler vessel. A full carrier battle group carries as many as 15,000 personnel.

Aircraft carriers certainly have value, but for a rising power such as China are they worth the cost given how much alternative punch can be bought with the same money? By contrast cruise missiles, such as America’s Tomahawk which can fly 1,500 miles from a submarine, frigate or long-range bomber, were being bought in 1999 for $600,000.

Put another way, sinking an aircraft carrier with one cruise missile – or a superfast Shkval torpedo – would be a cheap shot, hence the flotilla that surrounds any carrier.

It doesn’t necessarily follow that because America has aircraft carriers China must have them too. America’s needs are not China’s. Carriers took their place in the US and Japanese navies in an age when aircraft couldn’t fly much more than a few hundred miles or top up their tanks in the air from flying tankers. They more than proved their worth during the Second World War in the absence of cruise missiles.

For most of the 20th Century America fought globally against adversaries over ideology, first fascism, then communism. Notably the Soviet Union deployed only a handful of carriers but lots of submarines, appearing to follow the thinking of strategists of Hitler’s Germany.

Meanwhile during that century American corporations came to span the world. America’s interests became global and have remained so. Interests have also built up in favor of carriers, inside the navy and outside among shipbuilders and politicians.

China is different. It is a rising regional power with growing global interests but it is not yet a comprehensive global power like the US, and may not be for another few decades or more. It is willing to work with any country regardless of its ideology or politics. Moreover, it is not (yet) beholden to an aircraft-carrier lobby.

But at least twice, China has had to stand in its mainland redoubt seemingly humbled by the coercive force of American crriers on the horizon– the first time in 1950, when then President Harry S Truman sent the Seventh Fleet down the Taiwan Strait in case China wanted to pursue the fleeing Nationalists to Taiwan. Then, in 1996, as Taiwanese presidential elections neared, China began firing test missiles across the Strait, attempting to influence the election with a show of force. President Bill Clinton responded by again sending the Seventh Fleet into the Strait in what was the described as the biggest show of naval force by the United States since the end of the Vietnam War. China ultimately backed down. The elections culminated in the decisive re-election of the nationalist figure Lee Teng-Hui, then Beijing’s arch-enemy, as the fleet patrolled the Strait.

Page 2 of 2

Other than Taiwan, China faces a handful of key defense scenarios against which to measure the carrier case. Carriers for China would probably not be a significant factor in a conflict with Taiwan, which lies a mere 150-odd kilometers from the Chinese provinces of Fujian, Zhejiang and Jiangxi with their missile batteries and air bases. China’s strategy for defeating Taiwan is a blitzkrieg of missile strikes and air attacks. America’s department of defence reckons China is each year adding 100 ballistic missiles to its coastal batteries for striking Taiwan.

Were China to face off with its close trading partners in Southeast Asia over the disputed Spratly and Paracel islands in the South China Sea, matters might be brought to a close more quickly with aircraft carriers. But without them, the growing power and increasing range, due to in-flight refuelling, of China’s air force, plus the possibility of accessing the air bases of close friends Laos and Cambodia, all but guarantee air superiority for China.

Defeat on the seas seems certain for the principal Southeast Asian claimants of the disputed islands – the Philippines and Vietnam –in the face of the Chinese Navy’s 26 destroyers, 51 frigates and around three dozen attack submarines. In short, China's submarines, frigates and land-based strike aircraft can probably protect regional interests should diplomacy give way to conflict

It is however beyond China's coastal waters where the case is strongest for aircraft carriers. China's growing interests around the world, including rising numbers of Chinese working in far-flung places where its giant corporations are digging mines, drilling for oil or building ports, may one day require defending. America's certainly have, often involving its 11 aircraft carriers or dozen or so additional ships which can launch Harrier strike aircraft.
Almost all of China's imported oil is carried by tankers steaming across the Indian Ocean and through the crowded Strait of Malacca between Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore. In the long term the threat of the strait being closed to Chinese shipping in a conflict at the request of Washington or by the force of the US Navy could be dealt with by plans now on the books to build oil pipelines across Burma and possibly Pakistan.
That however still leaves the question of securing the sea lanes for Chinese shipping as well as protecting Chinese interests in Africa and elsewhere. It is then the Indian Ocean where China's maritime interests are greatest. They might be protected by submarines and surface ships armed with cruise missiles, anti-aircraft missiles and Shkval torpdoes, or Beijing might decide its admirals will also need carriers. After all, India, the dominant power in the seas between Africa and Asia, has one carrier now and by early the next decade could have three.
India's size, economic potential and nuclear weapons paint it as potentially China's greatest rival, despite detente in recent years. India too has growing interests in Africa. Simply put, states balance not power but threat, which grows inversely to distance.
Chinese diplomats have curried close ties with India's neighbors. They have all benefited from Chinese aid, used mainly to pay Chinese firms to build infrastructure. Indian newspapers frequently fret that India is being surrounded by Chinese allies.
However, in an era in which conflict within states appears on the rise while conflict between them wanes, an aircraft carrier designed to spport long-range air strikes may not be the most cost-effective and dependable platform.
China's yuan might be better spent buying carriers designed to support coastal operations, such as amphibious assaults to create safe-havens, seize ports, evacuate Chinese citizens or provide humanitarian aid.
Indeed, in the 63 years since 1945, America's aircraft carriers have never once engaged other carriers in battle. Aside from launching air raids, their most important role appears to have often been to help people stricken by disaster, such as survivors of the tsunami which struck Indonesia in 2004, or to evacuate Americans, as in the rout from Vietnam in 1975.
China's unwillingness so far to pour billions of yuan into aircraft carriers may not indicate budget constraints or the limits of technology and fabrication. It may equally suggest that Beijing is biding its time, mulling its options, and seeking cheaper ways -- through innovations in technology or strategy -- to protect its interests and should the day come win the battle.

Here is another article about China'ssub ambitions and that of the PLAN in general,challenging India in particular with its 'string of pearls" strategy.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribun ... _12_26.asp

The sea-going Chinese navy and its rapidly-expanding submarine fleet

Sol Sanders also writes the "Asia Investor" column weekly for EAST-ASIA-INTEL.com.

The Chinese decision to send a contingent to engage, under the umbrella of a United Nations resolution, in the multinational operations against pirates off the Horn of Africa is of enormous significance. It comes at a moment of severe crisis in the Chinese economy, a reflection of the worldwide credit squeeze and the onset of what looks to be a severe worldwide recession.

In mid-December a Chinese commercial ship fought off a pirate attack in the Gulf of Aden. And seven Chinese vessels have come under attack by Somalia pirates since the first of this year.

For those who believe that Chinese aspirations are legitimate and nonthreatening – and there are advocates of that assessment even in the upper echelons of the U.S. Navy – Beijing is only exercising its responsibility as a growing “stakeholder” in the world order. With even Russian navy elements as well as Indian, French, British and Germans backing up American naval units in the vast area, Chinese protection of its own shipping could be helpful and has been officially welcomed by the U.S. It may he shortly joined by Japanese naval units if and when Tokyo can unsnarl its legal difficulties under its constitution on how its “self-defense forces” can be deployed outside Japanese waters.

China’s modernizing drive which has included the rapid expansion and efforts to reach new levels of sophistication for its armed forces has moved ahead quickly toward making itself into a candidate as a major sea power. The protection of its commerce – until largely tacitly under U.S. cover – is, of course, a legitimate concern for any Chinese government. And most of China’s increasing commerce, of course, has moved by sea. Probably 10 percent of the Chinese gross national product is directly connected sea traffic. Seven of the world’s 20 largest ports are Chinese. It is now the world’s third largest shipbuilder after Korea and Japan and, of course, its yards do not distinguish between civilian and military craft. China now has some hundred ships on the ways, many of them incorporating the latest technologies which have been bought, borrowed or stolen from foreign suppliers. They include everything from Australian wave-piercing catamarans to Russian Sovremenny destroyers and Kilo submarines, Italian and French combat systems and Dutch naval guns. Foreign observers have been impressed with the Chinese ability to leapfrog some of these designs, improving them or adapting them to their own purposes.

Scholarly papers – and a very popular TV film of a few years ago – made the point that Beijing has read its history and sees the expansion of naval power as the stuff of former empires, particularly in the Indian Ocean. There it is already challenging India with what has become known popularly as “the string of pearls” strategy – a series of strongpoints across the belly of the Asian not unlike those of the Portuguese, the Dutch, the French, and the British empires of other centuries. China, too, with its depleting oil and gas reserves has to look to the Middle East as a major source of imported energy traveling a long way over what could be hostile waters in wartime. Beijing has established or is establishing combination naval commercial footholds in Marao in the Maldive Islands off south India, Coco Island in Burmese waters, Chittagong in Bangladesh, Hambantota in Sri Lanka, and Gwadar in Pakistan. [Hong Kong’s Hutchison Whampoa Docks under the billionaire Li Ka Shing, one of Beijing’s favorites, has established commercial docking operations at both ends of the Panama Canal and in the Bahamas.]

China has developed close relations – not only as an oil customer but as a vendor of cheap manufactured goods and a lender for developmental projects – with a number of African countries. And new “pearls” could develop shortly in the south Atlantic in Angola or on the Red Sea coast of the Sudan.

Meanwhile, China is rapidly expanding its submarine fleet, both diesel and nuclear propelled. And Beijing strategists would appear to see them as part of any asymmetrical warfare – and traditional Chinese stealthcraft – against the continuing large American and even Japanese supremacy in the Pacific. [The U.S. has 53 nuclear powered submarines, twice the number of any other nation, as well as 12 of the world's 15 aircraft carriers, and a powerful anti-submarine air fleet. To some extent, this is augmented with the Japanese fleet including the American Aegis missile carriers, under the terms of the U.S.-Japan Mutual Defense Treaty.]

But some Pearl Harbor strategists are concerned and claim that the Chinese submarine fleet at its present rate of expansion would exceed the number of U.S. ships in the Pacific by 2020. Recent confirmation that the Chinese are seeking to build carriers is adding to the growing calculation of an overextended American military force and the longer term aspects of Chinese sea power.

This concern has been heightened by the steadfast refusal of the Chinese to reveal their real budgets for military expansion or to speak openly of their strategic concepts. There have been sudden appearances of Chinese submarines near the now retired last American diesel aircraft carrier, the Kitty Hawk, without international signals and the not infrequent beeping of Japanese radar in its own territorial waters Last year saw the official debutante ball for the Chinese navy when it made a succession of visits around the world to French, Australian, Japanese, Singaporean, Spanish and U.S. ports and took part in joint maneuvers against the threat of piracy.

The Chinese deployment of two destroyers and auxiliary aircraft to the Arabian Sea will certainly improve its image with its new African friends and perhaps strengthen its claims for what it used to term “a peaceful rising” of Chinese power. But it would also be an excellent opportunity for the Chinese learning maneuvers of other navies, afford opportunities for some interesting spying on their operations and communications [a growing Chinese specialty], and a chance to get its sealegs in a new part of the world.

Sol W. Sanders, (solsanders@cox.net), is an Asian specialist with more than 25 years in the region, and a former correspondent for Business Week, U.S. News & World Report and United Press International. He writes weekly for World Tribune.com and East-Asia-Intel.com.

vivek_ahuja
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby vivek_ahuja » 31 Dec 2008 18:57

aditp wrote:Could the current and recent (in China) Indo-Chini exercises be an experiment to assess the real capabilities of the Indian Army? And will this be followed by tests of the IAF and IN aswell, before the chinks show their ugly intents again? :shock:


This brings an incident to mind that took place in the years leading up to 1962. India was well on its way to war with China and almost everybody in the Indian Army knew it. Then a group of Chinese Military officers visited India and Indian Commanders were told by Krishna Menon, quote: "Show them everything!", as a sign of friendship!

Somebody will explain to me one day why we are knowingly repeating the mistakes once again. Do we really envisage joint Ops with the Chinese in any situation? That idea is so ridiculous that it merits nothing but a laugh. And since when did friendship between nations start coming from the friendliness between their armed forces (who are never the ones making policy and who will always follow their orders and therefore whose friendship means nothing other than a breach of security)?

-Vivek

Mark Schwartzbard
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Posts: 34
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Mark Schwartzbard » 01 Jan 2009 03:18

vivek_ahuja wrote:
aditp wrote:Could the current and recent (in China) Indo-Chini exercises be an experiment to assess the real capabilities of the Indian Army? And will this be followed by tests of the IAF and IN aswell, before the chinks show their ugly intents again? :shock:


This brings an incident to mind that took place in the years leading up to 1962. India was well on its way to war with China and almost everybody in the Indian Army knew it. Then a group of Chinese Military officers visited India and Indian Commanders were told by Krishna Menon, quote: "Show them everything!", as a sign of friendship!

Somebody will explain to me one day why we are knowingly repeating the mistakes once again. Do we really envisage joint Ops with the Chinese in any situation? That idea is so ridiculous that it merits nothing but a laugh. And since when did friendship between nations start coming from the friendliness between their armed forces (who are never the ones making policy and who will always follow their orders and therefore whose friendship means nothing other than a breach of security)?

-Vivek


Relax guys, other than putting up a dog and pony show that exercise has hardly any meaning (other than building pictures for the media ).
The location is belgaum where the Maratha Light Infantry headquarters are located. If you watch those pictures comming out, I believe both sides did entertain each other.
:rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Nitesh » 05 Jan 2009 16:08


SuKan
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby SuKan » 08 Jan 2009 15:38

China attempts to copy South African weapons now

Author: idrw team | 7 January 2009 | Views: 68

BY : United Press International

China has had a number of dealings with South African weapons manufacturers over the past decade, most of which have not resulted in actual weapons purchases. However, several recent China-made military technologies bear suspicious resemblances to their South African counterparts.

In 2008, China acquired a fourth-generation air-to-air missile equipped with a thrust-vector control engine. The PL-10, or PL-ASR, is comparable to the U.S.-made AIM-9X air-to-air missile, or AAM.

According to a representative from the South African Denel Group, the PL-ASR is almost a replica of its A-Darter AAM. The Denel representative told the author during an interview in Cape Town that the Chinese had contacted the company in 2001 to explore the possibility of importing fifth-generation A-Darter infrared-guided AAMs, which included a TVC propulsion system and pilot helmet-mounted displays.

In the end, Denel did not sell the technologies to China, which it regards as its key competitor in selling air-to-air missiles on the African market. Company engineers were therefore surprised to find that the Chinese PL-ASR is nearly identical to the A-Darter in exterior structure, tail engine and even the diameter of the missile body.

The company strongly suspects that China reverse-engineered its A-Darter AAM after acquiring its technological materials.

This fits a pattern that China has followed in acquiring military technologies from many sources. When seeking a new technology, China contacts a foreign manufacturer and requests substantial technical information about its product, supposedly with the intent to buy. Instead, Chinese engineers study the materials and imitate the relevant concepts and designs.

Something similar occurred in the course of China’s development of a combat helicopter. In 1996 China and South Africa signed a memorandum to jointly develop a combat helicopter, when China was in the process of building its ZW-10 helicopter.

After being given a focused inspection of the Rooivalk combat helicopter’s subsystems, China wanted to purchase one helicopter from Denel, but the South African company considered the purchase of a single aircraft the equivalent of giving away its technologies. As a result, Denel decided not to sell China the helicopter and the cooperation came to an end.

Another item that appears to have been copied from South Africa is the optical-electronic pod on China’s ZW-9 combat helicopter, which bears a strong resemblance to the Leo-II serial O/E pods produced by the Zeiss Company.

Technical experts from the Zeiss Company told the author that about seven to eight years ago Zeiss exported two sets of an earlier variant of the Leo-II O/E pods to China, intended for use on helicopters. According to the source, the Chinese side explained that they needed a large number of this type of O/E pods for civilian helicopters, and therefore would like to purchase two sets initially for testing purposes. The source said the Chinese took no further action after receiving the test pods.

Currently, both the ZW-10 and the night version, the ZW-9, are equipped with O/E detectors very similar to those on the Leo-II.

China’s interest is not only in the O/E pod technologies used for helicopters. Chinese manufacturers have also engaged in active discussions with South Africa in hopes of acquiring TV video cameras and second-generation thermal imaging cameras used in Denel’s Seeker II unmanned air vehicle surveillance system.

The top military technology that China aspires to acquire from South Africa is without doubt the unmanned air vehicle. China’s New Era Group Corporation had several rounds of negotiations with Denel on the possibility of producing in China two types of Denel UAVs, which were on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show, called the Golden Eagle and the Seeker II.

China hopes to obtain the technologies to assemble these two UAVs domestically. However, according to a source from the Denel Group, negotiations on the UAV deals have come to a halt and the company has decided that unless substantial progress is made on these negotiations, the company no longer wants to spend time dealing with the Chinese.

Denel had a similar experience in trying to negotiate a deal with Chinese company Norinco for its Mokopa anti-tank missiles. The Chinese company expressed an interest in importing Denel’s technologies, but once again the negotiations ended with no result.

Since 2007, Norinco has attempted to contact the Denel Group again, saying that it wants to import the company’s G5 155-mm howitzer ammunition handling system. But Denel is not eager to enter into an agreement with China on this project; Chinese-made 155-mm howitzers have already appeared in quite a number of countries in Northern Africa, including Algeria, Sudan and Egypt.

The source from Denel did disclose that the company has successfully completed a deal with China for its 35-mm multirole machine gun. This technology in fact was exported to China 10 years ago. China seems to have upgraded this 35-mm gun to an air-defense machine gun.

China’s New Era Group Corporation has also been negotiating with Denel for the transfer of African Eagle UAV technologies. The Chinese introductory brochure of the cooperation program claims that the African Eagle UAV is capable of taking a payload of 500 kilograms, which could be six Mokopa anti-tank missiles or two Umbani MK 81 precision-guided bombs. The theoretical combat radius of the African Eagle is 750 kilometers.

China also hopes to obtain the South African Angel high-altitude and high-speed UAV attacker system. This attacker UAV is capable of carrying precision-guided weapons and attacking targets 1,400 kilometers away. The UAV is also capable of carrying A-Darter AAMs to launch unmanned aerial attacks.

The Angel attacker and reconnaissance UAV is equipped with aperture radar and is capable of conducting tactical reconnaissance missions. It can also be fitted with Mokopa active laser-guided anti-tank missiles to attack armored combat groups.

Nonetheless, the source from Denel disclosed that no substantial progress has been made on this project, indicating it may end up as one more failed deal. It remains to be seen whether China’s latest explorations with the company will yield technological information it can convert to its own purposes, however.

--

(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto
, Canada.)

http://www.idrw.org/2009/01/07/china_at ... s_now.html

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby kmc_chacko » 08 Jan 2009 21:44

SuKan wrote: China attempts to copy South African weapons now

Author: idrw team | 7 January 2009 | Views: 68

BY : United Press International

China has had a number of dealings with South African weapons manufacturers over the past decade, most of which have not resulted in actual weapons purchases. However, several recent China-made military technologies bear suspicious resemblances to their South African counterparts.

In 2008, China acquired a fourth-generation air-to-air missile equipped with a thrust-vector control engine. The PL-10, or PL-ASR, is comparable to the U.S.-made AIM-9X air-to-air missile, or AAM.

According to a representative from the South African Denel Group, the PL-ASR is almost a replica of its A-Darter AAM. The Denel representative told the author during an interview in Cape Town that the Chinese had contacted the company in 2001 to explore the possibility of importing fifth-generation A-Darter infrared-guided AAMs, which included a TVC propulsion system and pilot helmet-mounted displays.

In the end, Denel did not sell the technologies to China, which it regards as its key competitor in selling air-to-air missiles on the African market. Company engineers were therefore surprised to find that the Chinese PL-ASR is nearly identical to the A-Darter in exterior structure, tail engine and even the diameter of the missile body.

The company strongly suspects that China reverse-engineered its A-Darter AAM after acquiring its technological materials.

This fits a pattern that China has followed in acquiring military technologies from many sources. When seeking a new technology, China contacts a foreign manufacturer and requests substantial technical information about its product, supposedly with the intent to buy. Instead, Chinese engineers study the materials and imitate the relevant concepts and designs.

Something similar occurred in the course of China’s development of a combat helicopter. In 1996 China and South Africa signed a memorandum to jointly develop a combat helicopter, when China was in the process of building its ZW-10 helicopter.

After being given a focused inspection of the Rooivalk combat helicopter’s subsystems, China wanted to purchase one helicopter from Denel, but the South African company considered the purchase of a single aircraft the equivalent of giving away its technologies. As a result, Denel decided not to sell China the helicopter and the cooperation came to an end.

Another item that appears to have been copied from South Africa is the optical-electronic pod on China’s ZW-9 combat helicopter, which bears a strong resemblance to the Leo-II serial O/E pods produced by the Zeiss Company.

Technical experts from the Zeiss Company told the author that about seven to eight years ago Zeiss exported two sets of an earlier variant of the Leo-II O/E pods to China, intended for use on helicopters. According to the source, the Chinese side explained that they needed a large number of this type of O/E pods for civilian helicopters, and therefore would like to purchase two sets initially for testing purposes. The source said the Chinese took no further action after receiving the test pods.

Currently, both the ZW-10 and the night version, the ZW-9, are equipped with O/E detectors very similar to those on the Leo-II.

China’s interest is not only in the O/E pod technologies used for helicopters. Chinese manufacturers have also engaged in active discussions with South Africa in hopes of acquiring TV video cameras and second-generation thermal imaging cameras used in Denel’s Seeker II unmanned air vehicle surveillance system.

The top military technology that China aspires to acquire from South Africa is without doubt the unmanned air vehicle. China’s New Era Group Corporation had several rounds of negotiations with Denel on the possibility of producing in China two types of Denel UAVs, which were on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show, called the Golden Eagle and the Seeker II.

China hopes to obtain the technologies to assemble these two UAVs domestically. However, according to a source from the Denel Group, negotiations on the UAV deals have come to a halt and the company has decided that unless substantial progress is made on these negotiations, the company no longer wants to spend time dealing with the Chinese.

Denel had a similar experience in trying to negotiate a deal with Chinese company Norinco for its Mokopa anti-tank missiles. The Chinese company expressed an interest in importing Denel’s technologies, but once again the negotiations ended with no result.

Since 2007, Norinco has attempted to contact the Denel Group again, saying that it wants to import the company’s G5 155-mm howitzer ammunition handling system. But Denel is not eager to enter into an agreement with China on this project; Chinese-made 155-mm howitzers have already appeared in quite a number of countries in Northern Africa, including Algeria, Sudan and Egypt.

The source from Denel did disclose that the company has successfully completed a deal with China for its 35-mm multirole machine gun. This technology in fact was exported to China 10 years ago. China seems to have upgraded this 35-mm gun to an air-defense machine gun.

China’s New Era Group Corporation has also been negotiating with Denel for the transfer of African Eagle UAV technologies. The Chinese introductory brochure of the cooperation program claims that the African Eagle UAV is capable of taking a payload of 500 kilograms, which could be six Mokopa anti-tank missiles or two Umbani MK 81 precision-guided bombs. The theoretical combat radius of the African Eagle is 750 kilometers.

China also hopes to obtain the South African Angel high-altitude and high-speed UAV attacker system. This attacker UAV is capable of carrying precision-guided weapons and attacking targets 1,400 kilometers away. The UAV is also capable of carrying A-Darter AAMs to launch unmanned aerial attacks.

The Angel attacker and reconnaissance UAV is equipped with aperture radar and is capable of conducting tactical reconnaissance missions. It can also be fitted with Mokopa active laser-guided anti-tank missiles to attack armored combat groups.

Nonetheless, the source from Denel disclosed that no substantial progress has been made on this project, indicating it may end up as one more failed deal. It remains to be seen whether China’s latest explorations with the company will yield technological information it can convert to its own purposes, however.

--

(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto
, Canada.)

http://www.idrw.org/2009/01/07/china_at ... s_now.html


:shock:

Execpt Russia now nobody selling advanced equipments to China, but just look at Pakis they are buying so many modern equipements i am sure just like F-16s they will hand it over to China to reverse engineer it just look at China it almost reversed every thing they brought from the international market.

Russia go the reward for selling equipments to China, RD-33 reversed and used in Su-27 reverse J-11s and they will be exported to those nations which are interested and depended on Russian hardwares. Pakis will also get the hand on it as it will have Chinese engine Russians or Indians cannot object it. :(

Philip
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2009 16:32

"Chinese cheaters".Someone should sell them designs of weapon systems which when made will fail miserably.That will then teach them a lesson!

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinte ... 90112.aspx
The Luck Of The Chinese

January 12, 2009: China will buy (license) military technology when it can, but because China is a police state, and often acts like one even to outsiders, most Western military technology is unavailable for license. So China steals it, or buys it in secret. Often China will steal the technology even when it is available for sale. China has been doing this to Russia for decades, and was recently forced, by Russian threats of legal and diplomatic action, to sign an agreement promising to stop the technology theft. It won't, but the agreement will make it more costly for China when they get caught in the future and the Russian lawyers come after them.

China regularly plunders military technology wherever it can find it. South Africa is a recent target. For example, last year, China offered for export sale an air-to-air missile similar to the U.S. AIM-9X, and the South African A-Darter. The Chinese had tried to buy the A-Darter technology, and some serious negotiations ensued (during which Chinese engineers got a close look at the A-Darter), but the deal fell through in 2001. Now the Chinese are selling what appears to be a clone of the A-Darter. Coincidence? Not likely, if you take a look at the Chinese track record.

For example, China has been trying to develop a helicopter gunship; the Z10, for over a decade. Eight prototypes have been built so far. Despite the Western arms embargo on China since 1989 (because of the Tiananmen Square massacre), the Z10 is powered by a Canadian engine (two Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67Cs). The Canadian firm says it sold the engines to China with the understanding that they were for a new civilian transport helicopter.

Development of the Z-10 began during the early 1990s. China approached helicopter gunship manufacturers in South Africa and Italy for technical assistance. The South Africans turned them down in 2001, because all the Chinese apparently wanted was to buy a single Rooivalk gunship. The manufacturer, Denel, refused, realizing that the Chinese, as they have so often done in the past, simply wanted to reverse engineer elements of the Rooivalk, without paying for any technology used. South African firms has since uncovered evidence of China stealing technology for South African missiles, electronics and artillery.

Pratt & Whitney Canada will not sell any more engines to China, which means that the Z-10 cannot enter mass production until China develops a suitable replacement for the PT6C-67C engine. That might take a few years, at least. Until recently, China refused to release any information about the Z-10, but for the last few years, there have been increasing rumors of Western firms secretly assisting in the gunship's development. The Z-10 appears to be similar to the Agusta/Westland A129, or the upgraded versions of the U.S. AH-1 (especially the AH-1 SuperCobra). The 4.6 ton A-129 was the first helicopter gunship designed and built in Western Europe, and was introduced in the 1980s. The Z10 appears to have a FLIR (night vision device), radar and is armed with a 23mm autocannon and hard points for up to eight missiles or a larger number of unguided rockets. The Z10 is a Western style gunship. The only gunships the Chinese had previously were Russian designs. But even the Russians have since adopted the Western style, as pioneered with the AH-1. China has been developing its own helicopter for several decades. First they used helicopters and technical assistance from Russia, but for the last two decades, most of the tech has come from Europe.

China is pretty blatant about its technology theft, especially when it comes to weapons. When accused, they deny everything. So far, that works. But as China tries to export more weapons containing purloined technology, they are finding themselves meeting more angry lawyers, than eager buyers.

China now building an underground hangar for aircraft at Hainan island.

Internet mapping service shows China military construction on isle of Hainan

Taiwan News, Staff Writer
Page 2

Google maps show that China is building an underground airplane hangar and a submarine base on the island of Hainan, reports said yesterday.
According to a report by the U.S.-based Global Strategy Group, commercial satellite images available on Google Maps allow viewers to follow the progress of Chinese military construction on Hainan over the past two years.

An underwater submarine tunnel had its entrance south of a major naval base at Yulin, reports said. The tunnel had the advantage that nuclear and diesel-fueled submarines could seek refuge from aerial and naval attacks, while repair work and tests could proceed unobserved by the outside world.

Rumors about a submarine base at Yulin have been circulating for six years, the reports said.

Another Chinese military project on Hainan is the construction of an underground hangar in Ledong to store planes, including JH7A fighter bombers, also known as Flying Leopards.

China's main consideration could be to form a counterweight to neighboring Vietnam's growing airpower, according to the Kanwa Defense Review.
Last edited by Philip on 12 Jan 2009 17:12, edited 1 time in total.

Kumar_I
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Kumar_I » 17 Jan 2009 05:15

kuldipchager wrote:Mr.Ssiva or what ever is your name is.In early 50's if Stalin had't given huge weapon to china(MAO SE TUNG),and the help to make all the weapons. Do you realy think that China cuold have taken ASKI CHIN and have war 1962.



Kuldip,
the fact remain the same they had more weapons then us and they still do. We should have clear vision to strengthen our self and See China and Pak as one force and then match ourself.
Its a silent war, China wants to showdown USA and India wants to rise.

We will rise there is no doubt about it. slow but steady but I believe in accepting facts and knowing our weakness first so we can work on them.

Philip
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 22 Jan 2009 17:39

Chinese launch a new expansionist naval era.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan20 ... -j21.shtml

China dispatches warships to Somali waters
By Carol Divjak
21 January 2009

China has used attacks on Chinese ships by pirates off the coast of Somalia, and the authorisation by the UN Security Council to fight piracy, to launch itself as a blue water naval force on the international scene.

As it seeks to become a major economic power, China is compelled to project its military forces around the world to protect its trade, investments and supplies of raw materials. Like its rivals that already have warships patrolling the strategically vital sea lanes through the Gulf of Aden connecting Asia and Europe, China's naval presence is not so much about fighting the pirates, but protecting its own economic interests.

On December 26, two destroyers and a supply ship carrying 800 troops, including special forces, guided missiles and helicopters set sail from a new naval base on Hainan Island off the south China coast. The three-month mission is being given considerable prominence with state television reporters on board to broadcast the operations back home.

The state media is comparing the operation to the fifteenth century voyages of Chinese navigator Zheng He, who sailed a vast fleet through the Indian Ocean and reached Africa. China's failure to follow up on Zheng's voyages by expanding trade and establishing colonies is often held in ruling circles to be the reason why it failed to become the major capitalist power. They are determined not to miss out this time.

The official China Youth Daily called on the Chinese navy to follow Zheng He's methods of attacking on land and sea to root out the pirates in the Strait of Malacca at the time, then bringing "captured leaders back to the Celestial Empire [to face justice]". Zheng's aim was actually to force the "barbarians" to be subservient to the "Middle Kingdom". The newspaper called for troops to land in Somalia to destroy pirate bases—in essence, an aggressive, interventionist policy.

The Peoples Liberation Army Daily commented on January 4: "Today, overseas trade has become absolutely vital to our economy, sea lanes and major choke points have become the important ‘lifeline' of our economic and social development. Using naval forces to protect national maritime interests is an important measure for our military to defend the national interests..."

As China became an economic power, the newspaper continued, national interests went beyond the traditional territories of air, sea and land, and "expand towards the ocean, outer space and cyber space. Wherever are our expanded national interests, the duties of our military will be expanded there".

Trade with Europe, Africa and the Middle East has vastly expanded. Around 1,265 Chinese commercial vessels passed the Gulf of Aden last year, including tankers carrying 60 percent of China's imported oil from the Middle East, as well as shipments of raw materials from Africa. Europe is now China's largest trade partner, with much of the trade passing through the Red Sea and Indian Ocean.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao reported last month that Somali pirates had attacked one fifth of Chinese vessels passing through Somali waters from January to November last year, hijacking 15 vessels.

The region is one of great power rivalry. The US has repeatedly intervened in the Horn of Africa, a region next to Sudan, where China has major oil interests. Both the US and European powers have repeatedly accused China of protecting the Sudanese regime and failing to exert pressure to halt ethnic cleansing in the Darfur area.

There will be minimal cooperation between the Chinese and other navies in the area, apart from routine communications with the other warships, including those from the US, Europe, India and Russia. The Chinese vessels will not be part of any multinational command and will protect only Chinese ships. Hong Kong and Taiwanese ships will also eligible for escort. So far the fleet had carried out six escort missions.

China is clearly flexing its military muscle. Li Wei, director of the anti-terrorism research centre at the China Institute of Contemporary International Relations, told the China Daily last month: "China's military participation sends a strong political message to the international community, that a China with its improved economic and military strength is willing to play a larger role in maintaining world peace and security."

The US, Japan, India and Europe are watching the development with unease. China has emerged as a new power, rapidly penetrating into Africa, Latin America and now the Indian Ocean.

The London-based Times summed up the concerns in the West: "In an era when China is playing a much larger global role in commerce and politics, the deployment [of warships to the Gulf of Aden] redefines it as a nation prepared to spill blood protecting its diverse stakes in the world economy."

The Chinese military budget for 2008 saw another sharp increase after a major jump in 2007. The budget increased by 17.6 percent to $US58.8 billion, although the US Defence Department claims that Beijing's real military spending is two to three times that figure.

Much of this military expenditure went to the navy. China now possesses 57 attack submarines, a dozen of which are nuclear-powered, 74 major surface vessels (destroyers and frigates) and 55 large- and medium-sized amphibious ships. A few nuclear-powered strategic submarines are armed with long-range ballistic missiles. A significant portion of this naval force has been built since 2000. China is now the world's third largest shipbuilder—building one fifth of the world's ships—and thus has a considerable industrial basis for further naval expansion.

A strategic report published this month by the right-wing US think tank, the American Enterprise Institute, pointed out that the rapidly expanding Chinese submarine force has taken "American intelligence experts by surprise". Since 1990, China has initiated five submarine programs and, since 1995, has added 37 submarines to its navy, including nuclear-powered ones. By adding three new subs a year, China could have up to 85 submarines in eight years. "Never since the period between the two world wars has a nation undertaken a comparable level of submarine development," the study stated.

Although the Chinese navy has been aimed primarily against Taiwan, the US is deeply concerned that China will challenge its dominance in the Pacific Ocean. In October 2006, a Chinese submarine followed the USS Kitty Hawk without being detected and surfaced close to the aircraft carrier, causing dismay in US naval circles about China's advances in submarine technology.

A major concern for China's rivals is recent preparations to build aircraft carriers. At the news conference announcing the dispatch of warships to Somali waters, Chinese defence ministry spokesman Huang Xueping said China would use aircraft carriers to "defend sovereignty over coastal areas and territorial seas". His comment came just after Chinese general Quan Lihua told the Financial Times in November that China was considering the construction of one to two aircraft carriers. China has ordered 50 Su-33 fighters from Russia, specifically designed for carriers.

The Japanese newspaper Asahi Shimbun reported on December 31 that sources in the Shanghai municipal government and Chinese military had indicated China would start to build an aircraft carrier at the Shanghai shipyard this year, to be completed by 2015. The two 50,000-60,000-ton carriers are to be conventionally-powered vessels and therefore much smaller than their US counterparts. They will be assigned to the Southern Fleet in the South China Sea and possibly to the Indian Ocean to protect oil shipments from the Middle East. Well aware of the potential threat to Japan's sea lanes, Asahi Shimbun warned that these carriers "could significantly impact the delicate military balance in East Asia".

Although still the leading naval power in Asia, Japan is acutely aware of China's growing economic and military strength. Since World War II, the Japanese constitution has banned the use of military force in settling international disputes, and this has inhibited the building of obvious offensive weapons such as aircraft carriers. However, since the 1990s, the Japanese navy has undergone significant changes, circumventing the pacifist clause by building helicopter carriers labelled "destroyers". Some analysts believed these carriers could be converted to carry fixed-wing aircraft.

Reacting to the news of Chinese warships heading for the Gulf of Aden, Japanese Prime Minister Taro Aso immediately instructed the defence ministry to "quickly participate in counter-piracy measures". However, this deployment is likely to face a protracted political process before being approved. Japan's ongoing refuelling operation in the Indian Ocean to support the US-led war in Afghanistan has provoked considerable political opposition, creating political crises for the Liberal Democratic Party government.

India, another Chinese rival, is also concerned about Beijing's Somali mission, even though China and India held joint naval exercises in 2008 and counter-terrorism exercises in 2007. China has established ports in Myanmar, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, and conducted naval exercises with Pakistan, creating fears in New Delhi that China is seeking to penetrate the Indian Ocean, long regarded by India as its sphere of influence. Already operating one aircraft carrier and with two more under construction, India is spending billions of dollars every year to beef up its navy to protect its own economic and strategic interests.

A comment in the Indian Express last month warned that Chinese warships in the Indian Ocean are "bound to constrict India's own freedom of naval action in the Indian Ocean. China's strategic re-entry of the Indian Ocean after nearly five centuries demands a sophisticated Indian response that simultaneously cooperates with the PLA navy on shared maritime objectives and pre-empts any Chinese moves to establish a permanent base in the Indian Ocean... As China's shadow darkens over the Indian Ocean, the government must get its diplomats and sailors to work together as never before."

Philip
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 27 Jan 2009 13:33

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KA24Ad02.html

China's modern muscle on parade
By Antoaneta Bezlova

BEIJING - The army parade to mark the 60th anniversary of modern China's founding this autumn - a rare chance for China to flaunt its military muscle - will showcase not only its newest weaponry, but the modernization of its military too.

China's army is no longer content with military recruits drawn from the urban unemployed and low-skilled peasant boys. Since last autumn, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) has been offering competitive grants to attract graduates from colleges and vocational schools, aiming to raise the army's profile and enhance its skills.

China's 2.3 million-strong army is the world's biggest as far as numbers go. It is followed by the United States with 1.38 million
troops, India with 1.3 million and Russia's 1.24 million. Technological capability is another matter.

The realization that China needs to modernize its army was brought home forcefully last May. When a devastating 7.9-magnitude earthquake hit the province of Sichuan, killing nearly 80,000 people, Chinese soldiers deployed to conduct rescue and relief operations found themselves challenged by tasks requiring the use of life-detection devices and satellite navigation.

"New requirements of the times demand that soldiers are of high caliber, can react swiftly and possess strong capabilities to handle new equipment," an article written by the head of the department of the People's Armed Forces of the quake-stricken city Dujiangyan and published in the PLA Daily said in December. "Low targets previously set for military recruitment have restricted the combat-readiness of the PLA," the article added.

The army's new recruitment policies offer college students grants of 10,000 yuan (US$1,470) before enrolling and an equal amount after serving two years in the military with a chance to resume their university studies. Wealthy provinces like Guangdong, China's manufacturing and export hub, are offering even more - between 70,000 and 80,000 yuan ($11,000) in a one-off payment to university students who join the army.

The policies have attracted a wave of new recruits. The PLA Daily says that more than 10,000 college students joined the army in 2008, "much higher than the figure for the previous year", without providing a number.

China has been steadily increasing spending on its military, citing its overall backwardness in comparison to developed nations and a rise of internal and external security threats.

In 2008, China's official military budget was $61 billion, up nearly 18% over the previous year. By comparison, the Pentagon's budget for fiscal 2009 is $515 billion, with additional spending budgeted for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"China is faced with the superiority of developed countries economically, scientifically and technologically, as well as militarily," a newly issued national defense paper said this week. "It also faces strategic maneuvers and containment from the outside while having to face disruption and sabotage by separatist and hostile forces from the inside."

Figures for China's military spending in 2009 are still to be made public, but PLA officers say more needs to be done to usher Chinese troops into the high-tech era.

"Our military's general levels of armaments have made big strides," Fan Jianjun of the PLA's armaments department said at a press conference to launch the defense paper this week. "But there is still quite a large gap with the levels of the world's developed countries, and we still cannot fully adjust to the needs of protecting national security and unity and better fulfilling out international duty," he added.

The primary mission of the PLA remains stopping the self-ruled island of Taiwan from formally declaring independence, as well as preventing US forces from intervening in any ensuing war. Despite a recent thaw in relations with its longtime rival Taiwan, Beijing says threats from separatist forces in Tibet and the Muslim-populated Xinjiang region that endanger China's security and unity have risen.

"On these matters, we will not compromise," Defense Ministry chief spokesman Hu Changming said at the press conference.

New international developments have also demanded the expansion of Beijing's seafaring clout. Last month, two Chinese destroyers and a supply vessel joined the global armada patrolling the waters off Somalia's coast where Chinese ships have suffered seven attacks by pirates.

In a rare display of openness, the Chinese military has also said it is "seriously considering" adding an aircraft carrier to its fleet to ensure the country's maritime security and its commercial interests.

"The aircraft carrier is a symbol of a country's overall national strength, as well as the competitiveness of the country's naval force," Defense Ministry spokesman Colonel Huang Xueping told the media in December.

The US and Japan have taken aim at China's increased military spending, accusing Beijing of being murky about the motives for its accelerated army modernization. Some experts estimate China's true defense spending could be triple the officially announced figure.

But China contends its military budget is for defensive purposes, saying Washington and Tokyo have qualms about the rise of another global sea power.

For a country which strives to reassure its neighbors about the peaceful intentions of its global ascendance, the celebrations for modern China's founding provide the ideal legitimate platform to showcase its expanding military strength.

The October 1 parade - the first such display in 10 years - will include the navy which dispatched warships to join the global anti-piracy campaign in the Gulf of Aden and the Second Artillery Force, which controls China's nuclear missiles.

(Inter Press Service)

Masked motives in China's anti-piracy push (Jan 15,'09)

China's army looks beyond its shores
(Mar 29,'08)

China's army still getting to know itself (Jul 12,'08)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rajkhalsa » 02 Feb 2009 10:36

China to conduct exercise in Aksai Chin near border with India ?
Monday, January 26, 2009

China's CCTV program shows military officers learning about the landscape of the Aksai Chin region.

In 2006, a Google Earth user KenGrok discovered a "sandbox" in China's Ningxia province. Later it was found this "sandbox" is a model of the Aksai Chin region, which is 1,500 miles to the southwest of Ningxia.

There were a lot of speculations on why China built a "sandbox" model of its sensitive border with India. Most agree this model is used by Chinese military for training purpose.

The CCTV video shows military officers studying the map of Sino-India western border region. The "sandbox" model can be clearly seen in the background.

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