China Military Watch

ChandraS · Post by **ChandraS** » 27 Apr 2009 09:06

Guddu wrote: However, is it not so that after this incident we have become less "aggressive". I frequently read about Chinese border incursions and also that the Tibetan Border Force has restrictions placed on it (as I recall they are not allowed near the border)...am I misremembering ?.

You are mostly correct. SFF was not allowed to be deployed within 5 kms of the border or something to that effect. It was part of some understanding between India and China. Also the SFF folks were going on some 'unauthorised' diversions during their regular ops leading to some delicate situations

Regarding us becoming less aggressive, I think it's a matter of perception in the absence of any confirmed reports other than some news articles talking of our patrols joining hands to form a human roadblock, etc.. The number of reports about the Chinese incursions could well be a ploy.

My inferences from the Sumdorung Chu is that the Chinese learnt their lessons and went to the drawing board to rectify what they figured to be their shortcoming. Their thrust into Tibet in terms of rail and road infrastructure and air bases with extra long runways are mostly a result of this study, IMVHO only. This gives the Chinese a huge advantage to bring in their supplies and reinforcements quickly and in greater numbers than us pretty much upto the border. In contrast, we have yet to develop any road or rail links worth talking about. Our military is still supplied by air and mule trains for a large part of the border. We didn't develop such infrastructure fearing it would help the Chinese if they come knocking again ala '62

I don't know if hte military was part of this thinking but the bureaucrats and netas for sure were. Guess the doofuses didn't figure that we could blow the infrastructure if it comes to that, something like 'scorch earth' policy of the Russians.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 27 Apr 2009 09:34

sum wrote:Sadly (for the Chinese), the Indians have come a long way since 62 and the Chinese will be in for a rude shock if they assume that it will be a 62 like walkover again in this age( they should have got the hints from the "Chola incident" etc)

Never underestimate your enemy. No doubt Indian military has come a long way since 62. But Chinese military is evolving fast as well. The Indo-China situation is rapidly evolving. The old calculations of past decades don't hold true. The biggest chance is the demise of USSR. Another being improved logistics (road and rail) network in Tibet. These two changes coupled with rapid modernization will provide China the ability to launch an attack from Tibet. This is exactly what our military chiefs are telling us.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Apr 2009 09:41

abhiti wrote: Never underestimate your enemy. No doubt Indian military has come a long way since 62. But Chinese military is evolving fast as well. The Indo-China situation is rapidly evolving. The old calculations of past decades don't hold true. The biggest chance is the demise of USSR. Another being improved logistics (road and rail) network in Tibet. These two changes coupled with rapid modernization will provide China the ability to launch an attack from Tibet. This is exactly what our military chiefs are telling us.

Absolutely no doubt in that but all im saying that we wont be like the bali ka bakras of 62...We have come long way since then( of course, there is still a long way to go) and China will have to pay a heavier price than 62 if it tries some mischief this time around...

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 27 Apr 2009 09:48

sivabala wrote:Most of the Indian companies in computer technologies are in just database maintenance business. There is no noteworthy Indian company in internet security service. We don't even have good indigenous encryption technology. Our intelligence agencies cannot decrypt 128 bit encrypted communication. Almost for all wireless radio decryption our agencies rely on imported hardware. How can you expect our country to be proactive in this domain.

It is hard for any government to compete in internet security. The reason american govt is able to accomplish so much is because it depends on leading network and software providers to do what it needs done. Infact Cisco has a seperate department (with its own office, independent network, and seperate security from rest of the organization) which works with govt in internet security (read dominating internet for america). The same is true for every large system provider (hardware or software). The reason China is able compete at all is because of the company called Huawei which is supported by massive Chinese infrastructure orders. In India we depend on foreign equipment makers. So I doubt we will be able to compete with Chinese in this area. The only hope I see is if likes of Cisco, Microsoft, McAfee, Symantec etc increase their R&D investment in India. This can create sufficient knowledge base in Bangalore to deal with this threat.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 27 Apr 2009 09:49

sum wrote:China will have to pay a heavier price than 62

But will a heavier price bring them victory?

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 27 Apr 2009 09:51

sum wrote:Absolutely no doubt in that but all im saying that we wont be like the bali ka bakras of 62...We have come long way since then( of course, there is still a long way to go) and China will have to pay a heavier price than 62 if it tries some mischief this time around...

No doubt about that. Though the situation for India can be very grim if Pakistan decides to join in when China attacks. We don't have the capacity to hold both Pakistan and China.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 27 Apr 2009 10:00

abhiti wrote:No doubt about that. Though the situation for India can be very grim if Pakistan decides to join in when China attacks

Which they will undoubtedly will. Back in 62 the Pakis were caught off guard at the strategic level regarding the Chinese intentions. You can be sure that that particular mistake won't happen again...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Apr 2009 21:15

FYI:

The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Apr 2009 23:01

China Launches Remote-Sensing Sat

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 28 Apr 2009 05:23

It seems these Yaogan birds are operated by the PLA. This is the sixth to be launched.

Yaogan 1, 3, and 5 are in SSO and are SAR imaging (5m resolution/40km swath)
Yaogan 2, 4, and 6 are in LEO and are electro-optical imaging (0.6 - 1.0 m resolution)

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Apr 2009 05:47

NRao wrote:FYI:

The Dragon's New Claws: The J-10B Emerging

written by a Puke who pretends to be Bangladeshi and goes by the name of PLA-MKII on the Keypub forum. don't go too much into his fanboy garbage.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 28 Apr 2009 11:06

NRao wrote:China Launches Remote-Sensing Sat

upps .......... I didn't know they had synthetic aperture radars capability .... that too for almost 4 yrs

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 28 Apr 2009 11:24

Is China doing a Mayanmar in Sri Lanka?

China Gains where India Loses

The Hambantota port construction is estimated to cost $1 billion to be lent by the Exim Bank of China. The entire project is expected to be completed in 15 years in four phases. The first phase of construction, which was started in October 2007, is estimated to cost $450 million. The entire project, inter alia, provides for the construction of a gas-fired power plant project, a ship repair unit, a container repair unit, an oil refinery and a bunkering terminal. The bunkering terminal, which is expected to be completed in 39 months, provides for the terminal to handle up to 500,000 metric tonnes of oil products a year.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 29 Apr 2009 07:05

China may build up to six aircraft carriers

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 30 Apr 2009 08:02

Guys, there is this thread on key publishing forum, they show picture of varyag being moved to a dry dock,any idea may be a possible refit of the aircraft carrier.Check this out :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 227&page=8

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 Apr 2009 10:27

Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the Poor Quality of Jet Engine

Apr.2 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) — Mr. Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), the top head of ACIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China), has to admit that China’s “Taihang” WS-10 Turbofan Engine is still unsatisfactory in its quality.
In one of his opening letter, he says that the military aircraft engine production has been the “chronic illness” in Chinese aviation industry and he urges that the solving of “Taihang” WS-10 Turbofan engine is the key step to reinforce the Quality Control Procedure in AVIC.

Now PLA Air Force has install some WS-10 engine on its J-11B dual-engine heavy fighters for evaluation. But the result is not positive. Some resources report that the quality of WS-10 engine is terrible and PLA Air Force has begun to lose patiency of purchasing more WS-10 engine.

SuKan · Post by **SuKan** » 30 Apr 2009 11:00

krishna_krishna wrote:Guys, there is this thread on key publishing forum, they show picture of varyag being moved to a dry dock,any idea may be a possible refit of the aircraft carrier.Check this out :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 227&page=8

The news is based on this source

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/?p=3392

More discussions are here

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/navy/la ... #post98144

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 30 Apr 2009 11:45

Varyag's Flight Deck looks similar to Vikramaditya,which kind of Aircraft will they be using?SU-33 or Mig 29Kub

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 07 May 2009 06:00

Chinese and American ships clash again in Yellow Sea

China demonstrated its growing naval confidence again in the latest standoff between American and Chinese ships.

The fifth such incident in two months occurred on Friday in the Yellow Sea when a US Navy surveillance ship turned its fire hoses on two Chinese fishing vessels.

A spokesman for the Chinese Foreign Ministry said that the American ship was operating in China’s exclusive economic zone without permission and had violated Chinese and international laws. “We express our concern about this and demand the US side take effective measures to ensure a similar incident does not happen again,” he said.

The USNS Victorious, an ocean surveillance ship designed for anti-submarine warfare and underwater mapping, was conducting what the Pentagon called routine operations in the waters between China and the Korean peninsula. The Chinese vessels came within 100ft (30 metres) of the vessel.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 May 2009 07:11

Just a few days ago I saw a picture of a proposed Chinese AC with what the site claimed to be 6 cats!!!!!!!!!!!! The picture showed 4 and I could not see or figure out where the other two were - so I did not pay much attention to it. I have not been able to find that site again. IIRC it was a Chinese site.

The four cats were duplicates of the traditional two. Must be a monster of a ship to pile that many cats.

Well google to my rescue. No pictures here, but: May, 2009 :: China Links Military Power To Economic Security

Russian technology may figure heavily in carrier designs. In April, a Chinese television show interviewed experts who speculated that the new carrier would be similar to the Varyag, and employ a ski-jump. But the show also explored a unique configuration with up to six catapults. Carriers may be built at Dalian, the location of the Varyag, and at an expanded shipyard on Changxing Island near Shanghai. An early base for China’s carrier force will likely be a new naval base on Hainan Island.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 08 May 2009 04:09

NRao, I believe THIS is what you are refering to.

Note that in the begining of the issue, there's a small blurb about the IAF being the first customer for the new Il-476 aerial tanker version.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 09 May 2009 22:02

China readies J-10A fighter for export

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 10 May 2009 03:45

DoD Background Briefing

China's military is also enhancing its strategic capabilities in the nuclear, space and cyberspace domains. And in this context it's developing new generations of land- and sea-based nuclear missiles capable of targeting the United States as well as other regional powers. And this includes the road-mobile solid-fueled intercontinental-range ballistic missiles like the DF-31 and the DF-31A, as well as the JL-2 submarine-launched ballistic missile for deployment aboard the new Jin-class ballistic missile submarine -- the Chinese call it the Type 094 -- which we expect to IOC this year or perhaps next year.

SR. DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Longer-range capabilities could include conventional ballistic missiles, both the short-range ballistic missiles like the ones that are deployed opposite Taiwan, but also longer-range, like conventional medium-range ballistic missiles, which is something that they're working on, as well as the DF-21D, which is an anti-ship ballistic missile that they're working on. That's based on a CSS-5 medium-range ballistic missile air frame. Those are the types of things that we would consider, you know, disruptive in terms of longer-range capabilities.

pankaj · Post by **pankaj** » 20 May 2009 11:16

The Chinese think big, we don't
Rajesh Kalra Tuesday May 19, 2009

A number of readers were upset with my blogpost 'Slumdog India' because I had compared India with China and portrayed China as a nation that had its infrastructure priorities right. Readers pasted me on the comparison and held forth on China's shocking human rights record.

I am a proud Indian and have no doubt that despite poor infrastructure, we are a better country to live in. We have the freedom to do things that would be the envy of the world, leave alone China. But this post, unfortunately, is again a comparison between the two nations, but in a different context.

Let me get to the point straight away and look at the geopolitical aspirations of the two nations. We all know that while we have aspirations, China has gone far ahead, and is feared and envied the world over. A strong dose of such a feeling was administered to me last week as I cycled around the Ladakh region.

In the Changthang region of Ladakh, at 14,000 feet, there is breathtakingly beautiful Pangong Tso (Lake). Only 40% of this 130-odd-km-long lake is in India and the remainder is in Tibet (China). Since the lake is shared between the two, it is inevitable that the forces of India and China have boat patrols too.

Now, the forces of the two nations have an unwritten understanding (as conveyed to me by a senior army officer) that since it is a peaceful region, they would not fire at each other. So, what the two forces often indulge in is a game of cat and mouse. They enter each other's territory, activate their opponents, and rush back to the safety of their home waters. If you shut your eyes, you can actually imagine the Indian game of 'kabaddi'. Both sides have power boats for the task.

It is even so far, but don't pop the bubbly yet. In any case, we have this irritating habit of popping the bubbly too soon. Sania Mirza wins a point in the first round of a US Open game, and we behave as if she has won the grand slam. OK, that may be an exaggeration, but it surely happens when she wins a set in the first round.

But getting back to the boat patrols. How would you imagine, this 'kabaddi' is played? I would have imagined that our guys are sitting ready, in their hideouts, and as soon as they sense an incursion, they scramble into their power boats and chase the Chinese back. How lovely! And the Chinese would be doing the same. I really would have loved to see a game. Pity, neither side obliged. Apparently, that is not how it happens, though. I went around talking to more of our guys around, and the information was startling.

Our high-speed power boats look great, and they can move really fast on water, but, they take 30 minutes to warm up before they can chase our Chinese brethren. We have two such boats. Of course, we have other small motor boats too belonging to the army and the border police, but they are like the ones tourists use when they go visiting a vacation destination. Thankfully, at that altitude, not many are in the frame of mind to demand such facilities.

And how many such boats do the Chinese have? Though villagers claim the number to be upwards of 40, the army guys acknowledge the number to be around 22. So the ratio is 2:22, if you disregard the locals, who are normally well informed. These locals are diehard patriots, who also proudly showed me the indelible ink mark on their fingers that they voted. Ladakh had elections in the last phase, on May 13. They were also aware that no such rights exist on the other side of the border.

I asked the villagers to compare our boats with the Chinese. The honest assessment was that though our boats are fast, their boats are smaller and faster. But that is not what has caught their imagination. Almost all of them claimed that the Chinese boats emerge out of water suddenly, at high speed, and dive back in too. This means the Chinese are using submersible boats.

When I confronted an armyman with this claim, he pooh-pooed it: Why would they have something so expensive here? This one sentence itself made the comparison futile. We think small, they think big!

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... mment-form

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 20 May 2009 15:12

^^

they are using submersible boats for patrolling........

its the first time am hearing about such kind of boats..........

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 20 May 2009 19:53

All this talk about thinking big is fine. But using submersibles for regular patrol missions?

Heck, I was not even aware about the existence of submersibles till now. I personally doubt they will be using submersibles. I can get that they would have more patrol boats than us, but submersibles? Sorry, but this seems too far fetched to me. It has nothing to do with "thinking big", its waste of resources. And if one is to take the word of locals over army personnel who actually deal with Chinese patrols, then good luck to them.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 20 May 2009 20:07

Although, I dont believe these hypes of "Submersible boat" unless someone has a videotaped footage of it, however, they are available and used by columbian/mexican drug peddlers. In the past, I also read somewhere about "an Iranian" made vessel of this type.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 20 May 2009 20:16

^^ I am not denying the existence of submersibles. I am simply stating the improbability of them being used for regular patrolling. I also take offense at the author accusing army personnel of lying. Surely, having to deal with them, the said army person would know more about Chinese patrol boats than locals. If the Chinese were using submersibles, he would surely know. This small thing would surely be within the grasp of the author. So why, according to the author, are the army personnel lying?

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 20 May 2009 20:36

what is this:

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=41922

The warning came in a directive approved by Hu from the Central Military Commission, which ensures the ruling Communist Party's control of the PLA, and told top-ranking officers not to stray politically.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 May 2009 15:21

China's naval ambitions scares Asia.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 71,00.html

China's Navy Grows, and the World Watches Warily
By Ishaan Tharoor Wednesday, May. 13, 2009

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 May 2009 02:34

While surfing I came across a few pics of Chicom's 5th Gen plane. IF it is a close picture, it does look real good.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 May 2009 09:23

link ? there are a few fakes floating around so we must be careful.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 23 May 2009 16:58

HQ-19 (S-400) (China), Defensive weapons

It is now believed that the Russian S-400 Triumf (Chinese designator HQ-19) surface-to-air missile system was a joint development programme with China. The system uses the same sensors, battle management and launch vehicles as the Russian S-300 (SA-10/-20 'Grumble') and Chinese HQ-9/-15. The S-400 introduces three new missiles, the 9M96, 9M96/2 and the 40N6, which can be fitted in new canisters replacing all or some of the S-300 missile canisters on the TEL. It is believed that a new TEL vehicle has been developed specifically to carry the S-400 missiles, and that this is a wheeled vehicle carrying six to eight missiles. The 9M96 missile has a length of 4.75 m, a body diameter of 0.24 m, a launch weight of 333 kg, and a 24 kg HE warhead. Guidance is inertial with command updates and an active radar terminal seeker. The missile has a two-stage solid propellant motor system, with a maximum range of 40 km. The second stage has lateral thrust motors to improve manoeuvrability in the terminal phase, similar to the US PAC-3 design. It can intercept targets from 5 m up to 20 km altitude. The 9M96/2 missile has a length of 5.65 m, a body diameter of 0.24 m, and a launch weight of 420 kg. The two missiles share the same separating second stage, but have different boost motors. The 9M96/2 missile has a maximum range of 120 km, and can intercept targets from 5 m up to 30 km altitude. The 40N6 version
http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/j ... s9067.html

S-400 spotted in china

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6638 ... 382252.jpg

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2009 17:17

^^ Well, this has been speculated for some time now. I hope that it remains a speculation and nothing more.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 24 May 2009 17:58