China Military Watch

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 11 Sep 2009 15:07

Myanmar: No Chinese bases on Coco islands
if its true then what is this ?
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=14.1364924&lo ... %20myanmar

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2009 18:56

http://www.china-defense.com/pla/lmr/lmr001.jpg

other than psyops pics what exactly is the military utility of the above vehicle?

- ground clearance looks like a few inches only , unlike a real ATV - so looks unsuitable for sand , mud or rock
- engine would be small and incapable of high speed
- offers no protection from small arms or fragments
- no roof or proper roll cage
- looks unlikely to be capable of long journeys

looks more like a rich kids toy IFV than a weapon of war meant to punish the yindu . where are these kamandu's going to land by heli and drive on smooth pavement ? leh airport ?

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 11 Sep 2009 19:38

Singha wrote:http://www.china-defense.com/pla/lmr/lmr001.jpg

other than psyops pics what exactly is the military utility of the above vehicle?

- ground clearance looks like a few inches only , unlike a real ATV - so looks unsuitable for sand , mud or rock
- engine would be small and incapable of high speed
- offers no protection from small arms or fragments
- no roof or proper roll cage
- looks unlikely to be capable of long journeys

looks more like a rich kids toy IFV than a weapon of war meant to punish the yindu . where are these kamandu's going to land by heli and drive on smooth pavement ? leh airport ?

8x8 ATVs of an LMIC Platoon

At the heart of the LMR are its Light Mechanized Infantry Companies (LMIC). The LMICs combine the flexibility of dismounted infantry with the mobility of motorized forces without having a significant logistic tail. Unique to the LMIC is the 8x8 All-Terrain Vehicle (ATV). The 8x8 ATV routinely carries six infantrymen: a squad leader, gunner, driver, and three others that form a dismounted fireteam. 8x8 ATVs have been seen armed with either a QJZ89 12.7mm heavy machinegun (HMG) or a W87 35mm automatic grenade launcher (AGL) and reportedly sometimes mount a mortar. All 8x8 ATVs appear to have a provision for mounting the QBB95 5.8mm squad automatic weapon on a pintle at the front-left of the ATV. Each 8x8 ATV is also equipped with a winch, tactical radio, satellite positioning system, and tactical data terminal. The 8x8 ATV is capable of negotiating very rough terrain and with a quick modification is amphibious. It appears the 8x8 ATV in use by the LMIC is very similar in layout and dimensions to the Argo Centaur, a commercial 8x8 ATV manufactured by Ontario Drive & Gear Limited of Canada. In order to gain an appreciation of the capabilities of this uncommon vehicle, below are the operational specifications for the Centaur 8x8 ATV:
Engine Turbo Diesel, in-line 3 cylinder, 4 cycle, liquid cooled, 31 HP
Load Capacity 1500 lbs / 680 kg on land - 700 lbs / 320 kg in water
Fuel Capacity 12.6 U.S. gal. / 48 liters providing approx. 10 hours of operation
Speed

28 mph / 45 km/h on land - 2.5 mph / 4 km/h on water
Vehicle Weight 2100 lbs/950 kg empty, 3600 lbs/1633 kg max

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 12 Sep 2009 00:39

How much Jet Fuel reserves does China have?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_str ... m_reserves

Any news on when India's 3 reserves will be ready?
Is some percentage given to Jet Fuel as surely India would need at least 4 weeks of Jet Fuel reserves in case of War.

sumeet_s · Post by **sumeet_s** » 12 Sep 2009 01:52

How much Jet Fuel reserves does China have?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_str ... m_reserves

The link given refers to Strategic Reserves which is for base crude...so its quite hard to make out from that figure that how much jet fuel reserves would china have...

Any news on when India's 3 reserves will be ready?

India is building reserves of 5 million metric tonnes (i.e approx 37 million barrels)
The filling of reserves is expected to start by 2011-12.
But do expect some delays..

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 12 Sep 2009 02:45

The link given refers to Strategic Reserves which is for base crude...so its quite hard to make out from that figure that how much jet fuel reserves would china have...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11490

India’s naval moves also play a central role in ongoing military tensions and long-term rivalry with China. India and its island territories sit astride some of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, through which most of East Asia’s oil flows. The ability to interdict these supplies gives India a strategic bargaining tool that can be used vis-à-vis its northern neighbor in the event of a conflict over the northeastern state of Arunachal Pradesh in the Himalayas.

From the present scenario it looks like China is much better prepared for border war than India and theoretically it could capture Tawang in 2 weeks and it would be difficult(though not impossible) to dislodge Chinese. It's a lot easier to build roads on Tibetan plateau than on Indian side and PLA has a lot more power in it's armaments buying process than IA e.g. Mountain Guns. However, the trumpcard with India is then putting a Quarantine on Oil Flow to China through Persian Gulf as in Indan Ocean IN is a lot stronger. That's like a flank attack.
From Chess Technique:

However, in the case of a stable center, where the defender cannot hit back in the center, a wing attack is usually a good idea. For example, if a wing attack is started, the defender can't do anything about it in the center.

On the other hand, I doubt Chinese would actually attack India just for Tawang, the reason being it would make a India a 100 year enemy of China, and make India united against a common enemy, destroy Communists in India, double India's defence budget, triple it's artillery and mountain divisions, quadruple it's Nuclear/Missile arsenal, quintuple it's Nationhood resolve and will catapult a person like Modi to be PM and may in the long term be beneficial to India just as 1962 war was, when the defence budget doubled in 1963/64 which greatly helped in 1965/67/71 wars.

http://www.idsa.in/publications/stratco ... 300508.htm

Total defence spending have been hovering between 1.69 per cent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 1961-1962 to the highest ever of 3.84 per cent of GDP in 1963-64, constituting 25.45 per cent of total Central Government expenditure in that year.1

The real danger maybe that Chinese attack India for intentionally losing the War so there is a sense of complacence in India(like Goa War did) and then really attack when it's least expected.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Sep 2009 04:21

Singha wrote:http://www.china-defense.com/pla/lmr/lmr001.jpg

other than psyops pics what exactly is the military utility of the above vehicle?

- ground clearance looks like a few inches only , unlike a real ATV - so looks unsuitable for sand , mud or rock
- engine would be small and incapable of high speed
- offers no protection from small arms or fragments
- no roof or proper roll cage
- looks unlikely to be capable of long journeys

looks more like a rich kids toy IFV than a weapon of war meant to punish the yindu . where are these kamandu's going to land by heli and drive on smooth pavement ? leh airport ?

I had posted before on this vehicle. This is a mijjile trip by some PLA kernail. Same as those goofy Segways used by their equivalent of NSG.

Ground clearance is not the problem and the thing can go through mud/sand etc if you let go of tyre pressure. The four axles ensure you dont scrape your underside, even over a moderate size tree trunk and it can climb good gradients at slow speeds. Roll cage should be a big issue during fast driving in combat, as I am not sure there are going to be seat belts/restraining harnesses, if you are deploying troops that need to be firing all around. It is a bumpy ride and no way you can shoot well with its rather primitive shocks.

This vehicle is an ambusher's dream. A claymore can leave a lot of wounded/disabled soliders in that thing, let alone an artillery barrage. And in mountains, that is kind of a given. I feel India (and after Iraq fiasco, Khan) got it right with those Cassipir/MRAP kind of V-bottom vehicles. They might not assuage the egos of web-fans, who want to see herrows driving opentop jeeps. But they do save lives of soldiers in ambush prone areas.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2009 04:26

Same as those goofy Segways used by their equivalent of NSG.

my exact thoughts !

seems like the "little emperor" generation is not ready for a walk and needs to be driven to the battlefield.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2009 06:08

am surprised they didnt have a couple of buff barebodied mortal kombat type shaolin troopers standing in the back with javelines for added CQB psyops muscle.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 12 Sep 2009 06:34

Amitabh wrote:
Philip wrote: There are two separate elements here. One is that as anyone who bothers to ask someone who actually serves or has served in the Indo-China border, these violations are par for the course on both sides and serve to underline territorial claims in a disputed area. It is only armchair journalists and web experts who are outraged at this alleged "escalation".

This may well be so, I would love to read anything from the puki or sugar daddy's press, indicating that India does the same...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2009 07:25

the chinese press which is quick to pounce on india - why have they never reported on indian border incursions if indeed they occur ?

the 'secular' press in india and the bideshi adjuncts have to explain this anomaly

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 12 Sep 2009 09:11

Army alert on China

NISHIT DHOLABHAI

posturing in Arunachal Pradesh but a concerned Indian Army is raising two more divisions, or about 30,000 men, in the Northeast.

The army has sounded an operational alert on the India-China Line of Actual Control (LAC) after reports of a Chinese military exercise involving 50,000 troops in Tibet, where Beijing has increased its activities. Correspondingly, the Indian Army is said to be conducting an operations exercise in Arunachal.

Sources said one of the two new divisions would be stationed in Arunachal to take care of the China-India-Myanmar axis and the other at Leimakhong, 20km from Imphal, to cover the Bangladesh-India-Myanmar axis. One of the divisions is already being raised, sources said.

Although the two divisions together make up a Corps’ strength, they would be separated and placed under the respective controls of the 3 Corps and 4 Corps, sources said. The division at Leimakhong will be under the 3 Corps, based at Rangapahar near Dimapur in Nagaland. The one in Arunachal will be under the 4 Corps, based in Upper (eastern) Assam.

Army chief General Deepak Kapoor today met Corps commanders and top officers of the Eastern Command in Calcutta, apparently to discuss China, which has built highways parallel to the LAC with approach roads intruding into Arunachal.

The divisions are being raised fast and army officers have been issued posting orders to various locations. Troops have been pulled out of army units from across the country. The 57 Mountain Division in Manipur is expected to move to southern Assam.................

Getting Ready

Prasanth · Post by **Prasanth** » 12 Sep 2009 09:52

hnair wrote:
Singha wrote:http://www.china-defense.com/pla/lmr/lmr001.jpg

other than psyops pics what exactly is the military utility of the above vehicle?

- ground clearance looks like a few inches only , unlike a real ATV - so looks unsuitable for sand , mud or rock
- engine would be small and incapable of high speed
- offers no protection from small arms or fragments
- no roof or proper roll cage
- looks unlikely to be capable of long journeys

looks more like a rich kids toy IFV than a weapon of war meant to punish the yindu . where are these kamandu's going to land by heli and drive on smooth pavement ? leh airport ?
I had posted before on this vehicle. This is a mijjile trip by some PLA kernail. Same as those goofy Segways used by their equivalent of NSG.

Ground clearance is not the problem and the thing can go through mud/sand etc if you let go of tyre pressure. The four axles ensure you dont scrape your underside, even over a moderate size tree trunk and it can climb good gradients at slow speeds. Roll cage should be a big issue during fast driving in combat, as I am not sure there are going to be seat belts/restraining harnesses, if you are deploying troops that need to be firing all around. It is a bumpy ride and no way you can shoot well with its rather primitive shocks.

This vehicle is an ambusher's dream. A claymore can leave a lot of wounded/disabled soliders in that thing, let alone an artillery barrage. And in mountains, that is kind of a given. I feel India (and after Iraq fiasco, Khan) got it right with those Cassipir/MRAP kind of V-bottom vehicles. They might not assuage the egos of web-fans, who want to see herrows driving opentop jeeps. But they do save lives of soldiers in ambush prone areas.

Seems like the amrikans are lazy to walk too...

Apparently even Europeans use this kinda kiddi toys for their troops. I think India should not follow them, overly expensive and useless.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... p?t=144737

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Sep 2009 15:04

[/quote]

RayC wrote:Army alert on China

NISHIT DHOLABHAI

posturing in Arunachal Pradesh but a concerned Indian Army is raising two more divisions, or about 30,000 men, in the Northeast.

The army has sounded an operational alert on the India-China Line of Actual Control (LAC) after reports of a Chinese military exercise involving 50,000 troops in Tibet, where Beijing has increased its activities. Correspondingly, the Indian Army is said to be conducting an operations exercise in Arunachal.

Sources said one of the two new divisions would be stationed in Arunachal to take care of the China-India-Myanmar axis and the other at Leimakhong, 20km from Imphal, to cover the Bangladesh-India-Myanmar axis. One of the divisions is already being raised, sources said.

Although the two divisions together make up a Corps’ strength, they would be separated and placed under the respective controls of the 3 Corps and 4 Corps, sources said. The division at Leimakhong will be under the 3 Corps, based at Rangapahar near Dimapur in Nagaland. The one in Arunachal will be under the 4 Corps, based in Upper (eastern) Assam.

Army chief General Deepak Kapoor today met Corps commanders and top officers of the Eastern Command in Calcutta, apparently to discuss China, which has built highways parallel to the LAC with approach roads intruding into Arunachal.

The divisions are being raised fast and army officers have been issued posting orders to various locations. Troops have been pulled out of army units from across the country. The 57 Mountain Division in Manipur is expected to move to southern Assam.................

Getting Ready

Great New....

This is the confirmation that the threat from PLA is being taken seriously at the highest possible level in the GOI. The spate of news regarding the permission to raise the Mountain Strike Corps last year, tender for Light 155mm howitzer, need for embedding heptr. units with the proposed Strike Corps/Divisions, placing Su-30 Sqn. in Tezpur, clearly show that there is long term plan to not only "defend" against PLA aggresion but take the fight to the enemy. So all this talks of GOI sleeping etc. can be put to rest.

The raising of one more Mountain Division under IV Corps will take the number of Divisions under its command to 4. III Corps will have compliment of 3 Divisions under it; two in NE proper (57th and new raising) and 23rd in Ranchi. So from earlier 5, we've gone to 7 Divisions in NE proper. If I take Ravi Rikhye's word on number of new raisings required to balance PLA in NE proper (four), we need two more divisions. May be, we might see new Strike Corps HQ raised to manage the two new Divisions. For I think, we've already reached the limit wrt III and IV Corps in term of Divisions they can manage.

However, what is mystery to me is why does the IA need to move 57 Mountain Division from Leimakhong to other location?

From the present scenario it looks like China is much better prepared for border war than India and theoretically it could capture Tawang in 2 weeks and it would be difficult(though not impossible) to dislodge Chinese

@Karna_A: Can you enlighten as to how you managed to arrive at the magic number of 2 weeks?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2009 15:54

Tawang and Se-la has to be our Midway. every bush, every tree and every burrow should have a indian gun barrel poking out and pointing north.

the two more raisings need to under a new mountain strike corps (talked of) and
equipped with requisite toys like wheeled IFV, Mi17 and WSI Dhruv helis, UAVs and so on to break out of north sikkim and head for the tsango below Lhasa. driving
east north of bhutan, they should rear end the buildup of forces threatening tawang
and cause general mayhem in rear areas operating like the Russian brigades were designed to do in the aftermath of a breakthrough.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Sep 2009 21:23

Singhaji, stalingrad perhaps better than midway as analogy. or as gandalf says "this further and no more!"

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 12 Sep 2009 21:39

Manmohangrad

Hari Sud · Post by **Hari Sud** » 12 Sep 2009 21:48

Rahul M

Forum Admin

I rarely visit Bharat Rakshak. I found the members unrespectful except the Administrators. Most members are scared of the latter least they are banned from the forum.

Moreover I do not wish to compete with guys who have not physically seen the business end of a gun leave on side flying a Sukhoi.

I am taking up the matter of your uncalled for comment September 10th.

"hari sud sahab, the autor of that article happens to be a member of this board and I must say his knowledge of military matters leaves something to be desired most of the time."

When I write on military matters, I write in general terms not in specific terms. I consult with a retired Brigadier who happened to be my classmate in high school in Shimla. He concurs with me including the China battle scenario I wrote to which you as a forum administrator disrespectfully commented.

If you as an administrator is not disiplined then rest of the guys will continue in their merry way to pour snake oil, if they do not like anything.

My military experience is none but in 1962 India's battle in Ladakh myself and a lot more of us were sent by the then Chief Minister Partap Singh Kairon to help ferry supplies to Demchok area via Rohtang pass. We ran into countless supply trains and difficulties military supply trains were having in October when pass is almost closed. We were the only Shimla boys who did not need acclimatisation for climb to 14,000 feet and were useful.

It is not a military experience but how many of your forum readers who comment adversely can even come close to that.

Please if you it is possible not post links to my papers in your forum. There are other readers elsewhere who prefer to read these and take it to the most read paper on the news site.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2009 22:49

hari sud sahab, I'm more than aware and respectful of your credentials but that does not make some glaring omissions and mistakes in your military reports any less so. those have been discussed threadbare in the relevant forums and members have even tried to correct those through the comments section of your articles, to no avail. it is NOT just a matter of my personal opinion.

in spite of your commendable grasp on the larger issues, depending on your military articles for the little and not so little yet vital details is not entirely advisable. that was all I intended to convey by that comment.

regarding posting your article links on BR, kindly note that it is not the people who run this forum who have posted those, so there is no 'official' effort to post and denigrate your articles on BR that I'm aware of.
all such posting is strictly within the ambits of 'fair use' and does not violate copyright. currently I don't see a sufficient reason why I should impinge on the freedom of speech of BRFites. current BRF blanket ban on news sources are on those that produce absolute bilge, your articles don't fall in that category AFAIK.
even so, perhaps that can be done if you absolutely insist.
regards.

Raye · Post by **Raye** » 12 Sep 2009 22:51

Anyone has an idea, about why india doesnot have any diplomatic and more preferably military relation with taiwan

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2009 22:53

raye, this is geo-politics --> strat forum, not here. there are a number of china threads there. read up a bit , you'll be rewarded with some interesting information and analysis.

==========

rohitvats wrote: @Karna_A: Can you enlighten as to how you managed to arrive at the magic number of 2 weeks?

the origins of that analysis is here.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 32#p731932

Raye · Post by **Raye** » 12 Sep 2009 23:01

thanks rahul !!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2009 23:23

rohitvats wrote: Great New.... This is the confirmation that the threat from PLA is being taken seriously at the highest possible level in the GOI. The spate of news regarding the permission to raise the Mountain Strike Corps last year, tender for Light 155mm howitzer, need for embedding heptr. units with the proposed Strike Corps/Divisions, placing Su-30 Sqn. in Tezpur, clearly show that there is long term plan to not only "defend" against PLA aggresion but take the fight to the enemy. So all this talks of GOI sleeping etc. can be put to rest.

The raising of one more Mountain Division under IV Corps will take the number of Divisions under its command to 4. III Corps will have compliment of 3 Divisions under it; two in NE proper (57th and new raising) and 23rd in Ranchi. So from earlier 5, we've gone to 7 Divisions in NE proper. If I take Ravi Rikhye's word on number of new raisings required to balance PLA in NE proper (four), we need two more divisions. May be, we might see new Strike Corps HQ raised to manage the two new Divisions. For I think, we've already reached the limit wrt III and IV Corps in term of Divisions they can manage.

However, what is mystery to me is why does the IA need to move 57 Mountain Division from Leimakhong to other location?

though not exactly in proper NE, the XXXIII corps has to be considered in the overall equation too. am I wrong to assume it is also the largest of the 3 corps under EC at the moment and tasked with a more offensive posture than the other two ? assumption comes from the presence of the arty bde.

also, won't the total be more than the 30,000 the article mentions ? mtn divs are supposed to be more heavily manned.

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 13 Sep 2009 01:18

Dress Reahsal for the Chinese Military Parade

TYPE-99
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6674/26592632.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4718/91120735.jpg

ZTS-04
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4343/86183815.jpg

ZBL-09/VN-1 8x8 AFV
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7499/98450804.jpg

ZBD-2000 Amphibious IFV with 30mm gun.
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1716/14104918.jpg

ZBD-03 Airborne Fighting Vehicle with 30mm gun and HJ-73C ATGM
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7895/17418691.jpg

Type 89 Command APC
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5241/13166157.jpg

PLZ-05 155mm SPG
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1240/31505348.jpg

SH-3 122mm SPG
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2610/56832892.jpg

DF-31A ICBM
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2945/27862991.jpg

DF-21C MRBM
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3523/69823739.jpg

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 13 Sep 2009 03:10

Chinese Women's militia eqv to our home guard.

http://i27.tinypic.com/npqd14.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/33aqm9v.jpg
http://i26.tinypic.com/mmd4aq.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/4kuxab.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/m8gwhl.jpg
http://i31.tinypic.com/our1ud.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/1zqx0js.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/2z9ibyg.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/5eg9yf.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2e3uctc.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/2j0gmmx.jpg

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Sep 2009 03:12

Also, won't the total be more than the 30,000 the article mentions ? mtn divs are supposed to be more heavily manned.
though not exactly in proper NE, the XXXIII corps has to be considered in the overall equation too. am I wrong to assume it is also the largest of the 3 corps under EC at the moment and tasked with a more offensive posture than the other two ? assumption comes from the presence of the arty bde.

also, won't the total be more than the 30,000 the article mentions ? mtn divs are supposed to be more heavily manned.

Rahul, the scale of troops, even after accounting for certain specialized add-ons due the nature of terrain of operation, is lesser in Moutain Divisions as compared to Infantry Division. For example, the Armored Regiment will be missing. Also, the scale of inherent Mechanical Transport (MT) is lesser.

As for the Arty Bde in with XXXIII Corps, all Corps have a Corps Arty Bde authorised to them. So nothing out of the way in case of XXXIII Corps. As a matter of comparison, US Army Corps have 3 such Bdes authorized to them. So now you know where the firepower comes from.

This is where IA's Artillery Divisions come into picture. These formations can allot Bde/Units on case by case basis to formations. Along with the Artillery Combat Command and Control System (ACCCS), very high firepower densities can be brought to bear on the enemy troops.

As for the link to the analysis of 2 weeks period for PLA to capture Twang, all I can say is

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Sep 2009 03:14

Thanks Soutik...those pics are fabulous....impressive firepower display I say

....I like it...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Sep 2009 06:31

Hmmm,
So china has built a huge army of women servicemen who are obviously trained in the art of killing with just the weapons nature has given them (I mean bare hands) ready to uh... serve the cause of the nation and the party eh?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 09:20

Rahul, the scale of troops, even after accounting for certain specialized add-ons due the nature of terrain of operation, is lesser in Moutain Divisions as compared to Infantry Division.

thanks, unfortunately every other report on mtn divs repeat this line.

For example, the Armored Regiment will be missing.

could you give us a break up of the inf div.

this page for instance doesn't list any armoured regiment under the inf div.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ns-toe.htm

tallying the numbers, assuming those in the page are correct, (45 in all for the armoured divisions and 8 for the RAPIDs, a balance of 10 are left. it was my understanding that these constitute the indep. armoured bdes.)

As for the Arty Bde in with XXXIII Corps, all Corps have a Corps Arty Bde authorised to them. So nothing out of the way in case of XXXIII Corps.

that was my understanding too but the wiki page does list quite a few corps without corps arty bde which was the source of my confusion !

rajkhalsa · Post by **rajkhalsa** » 13 Sep 2009 09:34

United Arab Emirates, China, India and a plane load of “weapons”

Wednesday, September 09, 2009It was reported on September 5th 2009, that a China-bound UAE air force C-130 Hercules was detained at India’s Kolkata airport after the discovery of arms and explosives during a routine refuel stop. (here)

After being detained for 72 hours the C-130 and its 9 crew members were released and on their way to their original destination of Xiangyang China after the UAE government issued an apology; blaming the omission in the cargo declaration on a technical error. (here) Since the cargo was sealed during the episode, speculation concerning the content was abound, ranging from illegal US Harpoons, (here) to US Maverick or French MICA missiles to Pakistan. (here) (here) In other words, people were just guessing.

Back in June 2009, Norinco’s Kunlung Company shipped an entire LD-2000 air-defense system to UAE via a rented Russian An-124 for evaluation (here). After 22 days, the evaluation was considered a success, with a final live-fire demo in front of the PLA’s defense attaché and other high ranking UAE officers.

While the detained UAE C-130 may not contain the returning LD-2000, it must be noted that like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, the UAE has an active military exchange program with China, a fact missed by many pundits. In that light, it should not be a surprise to see military equipment in transit to China from UAE. Maybe next time someone will double check the paperwork and train the crew in simultaneous winking when embarking on such clandestine operations.

UAE C-130 Hercules at Kolkata airport

LD-2000

Like the land-based version of the naval CIWS Type-730, the LD-2000 combines a seven barreled 30mm Gatling gun with 6 TY-90 SAMs. The system is likely to have a similar overall capability to the US C-RAM but with extended range, thanks to the 6km reach of the TY-90s. However, rather than just anti-mortar defense the LD-2000 is more likely employed for point defense of key installations and facilities from cruise missiles, PGMs and fast jets at low altitude.

According to Norinco, LD2000 can engage cruise missiles with an RCS of 0.1 m2, up to a maximum speed of M2.0. The system is also claimed to have a multiple-target engagement capability and be able to operate in an electronic counter counter-measure environment.

Photo of the LD-2000 under eval in UAE.

Photos of LD-2000 in China.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Sep 2009 09:54

is the 1st photo a arms exhibition ? - seems to feature a kiowa little bird heli, a smerch TEL and the ld2000.

about the new PLA fraulein-kamandu units - we had best throw in towel and retreat back to tezpur

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 13 Sep 2009 09:58

rohitvats wrote:
@Karna_A: Can you enlighten as to how you managed to arrive at the magic number of 2 weeks?

There is no magic number in 2 weeks. It's just a guess based on current scenario. Now don't take me to task if it takes 3 weeks. I bet someone will take me to task if it's one week! Moreover, if China is not 99% sure of a 4-6 week victory it will never attack.
Sun Tzu Quote is relevant here.

If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

Just like the useless Nuke yield debate, the question here is not of exact time, but whether it's possible. Just as in larger picture it does not matter whether the Nuke is 20KT or 45KT, similarly here it does not matter whether it's one week or 4 weeks. what really matters is whether it's actually possible.

So here is the brief scenario:

(a) Check the map of Tawang
http://northeastindiaexpedition.org.uk/Images/Map2.jpg

(b) Now read BR discussions from 2005
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=120

Todays HT has published a news article that Chinese Army has intruded in numerous districts in Bhutan and even built pucca bridges.

(c) An attack by China through Bhutan would not only threaten Tawang, but has the possibility of threatening Chicken's Neck and hence whole of NE. So the main thrust of IA would be to save Chicken's neck and not Tawang.
http://www.pecad.fas.usda.gov/highlight ... apneIN.jpg
(d) That's why the importance of Sea Route to NE.
http://newsx.com/story/35543
Why India was not given a Port on NE and the Tripura border was stopped just 50KM from Sea is for another thread and another British cunningness.
Remember, a ship could carry as much as 200 Trains and Chittagong port may have to be focrcefully occupied for the war duration.

What the Indian reaction would be is worth a debate.
However, for India it would be a lot easier to cut Chinese Chicken's neck than get back Tawang because the Chinese Chicken's neck is Malacca Strait where all it's Oil passes.
http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/fline/ ... 605001.jpg
So the logical solution is if China cuts Indian Chicken's neck, IN cuts Chinese Chicken's neck. In Chess if your flanks are under attack, you attack in center and if center is under attack, you attack the flanks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Sep 2009 10:48

Karna, the north of bhutan is high mountains and only few routes exist to reach the
south, that are easily blocked to vehicular movement. BRDO maintains some roads
there. one IA div in Assam is assigned to move into bhutan and protect flank of
tawang should things er 'head south' literally.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 13 Sep 2009 11:02

Singha wrote:Karna, the north of bhutan is high mountains and only few routes exist to reach the
south, that are easily blocked to vehicular movement. BRDO maintains some roads
there. one IA div in Assam is assigned to move into bhutan and protect flank of
tawang should things er 'head south' literally.

How about Mountain Trails?? How many are there no one knows? In 1962 they didin't use any major roads as below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-India ... _theatre_2

On the eastern theater, the PLA attacked Indian forces near Se La and Bomdi La on 17 November. These positions were defended by the Indian 4th Division. Instead of attacking by road as expected, PLA forces approached via a mountain trail, and their attack cut off a main road and isolated 10,000 Indian troops. Following a battle, the Indians were ordered to begin a retreat to regroup. However, the orderly Indian retreat was cut down into chaos and none of the Indians were seen until three weeks later.[6]

Singha,

Hopefully you are right and I am wrong. But China will only attack if it's sure of victory. If there is any doubt, China will not attack as a big military loss can result in loss of Tibet too.
But it looks like China has a window before India gets a sea Route to NE and all it's armaments come alive and that's why it's in belligerent mood.

Sun Tzu Quotes:

What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations.
Ch. 2

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 13 Sep 2009 12:30

Now, China makes incursion in Uttarakhand

Provoking India again, Chinese army made incursion in Uttarakhand on September 5, TV reports said.The state CM has appealed to the prime minister and the home ministry for more patrolling force to streghten the border areas.

According to locals in the area, the Chinese reportedly made the the Chinese came as far as Rimkhim in the Chamoli district and left behind cigarettes and biscuit packet wrappers.

Two weeks ago, the Indian army had confirmed Chinese incursion in Leh.

Bullying tactics underway.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Sep 2009 12:45

pandyan wrote: And when enemy wins, we must launch psy-ops to claim that we won. When we win, we must project we have won without lifting the finger.

Sounds like a coverall strategy that will make sense in hind sight as we can pick and choose what worked. Sun Tzu is over hyped. If you have something to quote from Thiruvalluvar, pls. do so.

on sun tsu,

F**t and move away so it stinks and they don't know if they are responsible or not
Be fearful so they think you are scared and they are fooled
Pretend to be deceptive when actually you are not so they are confused
Be in two places at the same time so they know not which is the real you
Lie when you don't have to so they think it is the truth
Tell the truth when you must lie so they think it is a lie
Practice looking cross-eyed so they don't know where you are looking
Eventually you will control your bowel movements.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 99#p691699

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 13 Sep 2009 13:11

pandyan wrote:
Karna_A wrote:Sun Tzu Quotes:
Quote:
What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations.
Ch. 2

Quote:
All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
And when enemy wins, we must launch psy-ops to claim that we won. When we win, we must project we have won without lifting the finger.

Sounds like a coverall strategy that will make sense in hind sight as we can pick and choose what worked. Sun Tzu is over hyped. If you have something to quote from Thiruvalluvar, pls. do so.

You are just splitting hair. Sun Tzu quotes are there just to reinforce an idea, but they are not the main idea.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 13 Sep 2009 22:12

rohitvats wrote:
RayC wrote:There were armoured units in Inf Divs throughout?
Sir, I was about to X-post your comment in the IA discussion thread on the integral armored regiments with Infantry Divisions even prior to RAPIDS. I'm given to understand that this phenomenon came into being in late 90s. Is that understanding correct? Or its predates late 90s?

Thanx in advance

Rohit, that organisation (1 Armd Regt with evey infantry division) existed from the 60s. All the wars , 62,65,71 were fought with an Armoured Regiment integral to every Infantry Division. There are frequent references to divisional armour in many histories.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 13 Sep 2009 22:28

I have served in Inf Divs and I have not seen an armd unit.

It was of course on the WET!

Maybe a shortage!

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 14 Sep 2009 01:42

More from CHinese Parade

http://i26.tinypic.com/1ys8yg.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/98hi4k.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/9ljz8p.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/2zokqvn.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2n87jw0.jpg