China Military Watch

[Shameek]

I wrote that Taiwan is administered by china and could possibly use it as a base .and we can use banglaesh as a base.I did not say bangladesh is a threat pls read properly.

I did not say that either. What I asked is the relevance of using Bangladesh as a base against the threat of attack from Taiwan (Why China would use Taiwan for an attack against India is also questionable). Indian territory surrounds Bangladesh on 3 sides. So I fail to see the advantage of having a base there. Besides they are not really our willing allies.

[Samay]

^^^

If I stand correct,All the current day military sats comes with missile warning systems.They do carry RWR`s and will dodge at the last sec to avoid the attack.

Not millitary sats but general sats like navigation,communication,indigenous gps,etc will then be in clear danger,.
knowing the fact that china also behaves like a rabid dog in the fashion pakistan does , we should be installing missile detection and avoidance mechanisms in all our future satellites of all kinds,.
DRDO/ISRO intelligentsia should loook and act into this matter seriously.
.
I guess all future satellites of west will be anti-asat , but if we initiate in this technology earlier ,isro could earn a lot,because many countries will be searching ways to secure their sats from iran,china,nokos,pakis,etc

BTW how much payload will increase on sats by installing radars/sensors for this purpose ??

[vasu_ray]

here's one more reason, a missile based sat launch capability gives us on demand 'Brilliant Pebbles' which should be the goal, its premature at this stage but whenever they get to the PDV and the kill vehicles it could become a reality

China is ahead in long ranged missiles while we may be ahead in ABM, its matter of time before they bridge their gap in ABM and we should too in the range/payload aspects

[Shalav]

^^^
If I stand correct,All the current day military sats comes with missile warning systems.They do carry RWR`s and will dodge at the last sec to avoid the attack.

That is incorrect.

A satellite in orbit is not going anywhere other than its current orbit, and unless it is manoeuvring to different orbit it is unpowered the rest of the time. So its vector is more or less known to every ground based surveillance RADAR. There may be dozens of ground based RADARs which have the satellite under surveillance at any time.

Since its orbit is known to any surveillance RADAR there is no point in locking onto a satellite. Hence the satellite will never know if it has been targeted. Neither will it know when it should dodge since a kill vehicle need not be powered nor transmitting, the necessary RADAR coverage can be provided by any by plain ground based surveillance RADAR without locking on, since there is no lock-on signals for the RWR to warn against, there is no need for a RWR.

A KV need not even collide directly with its target. It could use an explosive charge to launch a hail of pellets into the projected path of the target, those pellets will spread like a shotgun blast increasing their coverage volume as they travel. Even a single pellet colliding head on with the target at a combined velocity of 3.5-4 km/s will cause catastrophic damage to the target.

There may be a few highly specialized satellites which may have RWR, but I have not heard of these being standard equipment on current military satellites.

[Singha]

some of the big milsats have a small nuclear reactor onboard and could have a active radar to detect pursuers and colliders. for pursuers, it could use thrusters (KH12 types have a lot of fuel) to raise/lower orbit or move sideways but for colliders coming from opp direction there is almost zero warning time. at closure of 4km/sec, even a 50km N012 type radar permits bare 10 sec of warning time to change orbit and escape the cloud of pellets.

I think a full spectrum Ereyie type radar is onree soln. perhaps some such radar sats (specialized) can ride herd on a small collection of sats in line-of-sight and provide coverage and guidance.

[D Roy]

most of these 'nuke satellites' have RTGs on board which don't meet the power requirements of anything resembling an active radar of any consequence.


even for SNAP-10A which is the only known reactor launched into space by the US, the power generation was around half a kilowatt.

what was the power availability in the RORSAT program?

[shukla]

China far from being capable of building an Aircraft carrier..

In its quest for an aircraft carrier during the last three decades China purchased hulls of three de-commissioned ships which led to periodic reports that a new or refurbished carrier unveiling was imminent.

“However, acquiring or even building a carrier is not China’s real problem; their dilemma is the type of aircraft that is going to be operated from the ship,” he said. In the current scenario China was unlikely to have access to a steam catapult to launch an aircraft from the deck and its option is confined to two Russian aircraft that use short take-off and arrested recovery, he added.

So, either Russia will have to give sufficient numbers of either MiG29 K [which India has procured for its aircraft carrier] or Su-33 fighter to equip its carriers or China design carrier aircraft in a hurry.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 105765.ece

[abhik]

I think the key is to make the satellites stealthy , if a huge fighter like the F-22 can be invisible to radar (well almost),then there is no reason most mil sats can be made very very hard to detect and track,at least the ones which use passive surveillance methods. Evasion should come next.

[Pratik_S]

I think the key is to make the satellites stealthy , if a huge fighter like the F-22 can be invisible to radar (well almost),then there is no reason most mil sats can be made very very hard to detect and track,at least the ones which use passive surveillance methods. Evasion should come next.

Americans put the first stealth sat in orbit in 1990, so its done aready.
Read Project MISTY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misty_(classified_project)

[Pratik_S]

Varyag Status
The Chinese have finish lot of the work on the carrier Varyag and they have also built a full scale mock-up of the carrier and it seems they have integrated the Radar too. According to the link the Chinese are expected to begin the trails by 2011-12 which is roughly the same time the Indian carrier Vikadi will starts its trail in Russia. Is the Vikadi capable of taking on the Varyag? What plans the the IN have for it?
http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/va ... nsform.htm

[Srivastav]

^^ getting an AC carrier doesnt mean that one will know how to best utilize it too. China might have many good plans on paper but end of the day Indian Navy has been operating carriers for decade and knows how to best utilize them.

Also its one thing getting a carrier and its totally different thing getting good enough planes to fly off it. Maybe I am mistaken but i dont think china has received any su-33 yet. Of course them might use a navalized J-10 or bundar....who knows....End of the day.... China getting a carrier is a development indeed, albeit not a earth shattering one (for now).

[Pratik_S]

Yes the Chinese are not getting the Su-33 from Russia. But they had purchased a Su-33 prototype from Ukraine in 2000-01. It was used as a test bed to develop a copy of Su-33 which the Chinese call as J-15 Flying Shark which supposedly flew last year. But considering China's lack of capability in the field of aviation it should take them atleast 5 years to finish the fighter.
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/po ... 4466.shtml

It won't take the Chinese long to understand carrier warfare.

[shukla]

India to deploying Akash & other missiles along Chinese border...

The plan to base Akash squadrons in North-East constitutes yet another step to counter China's massive build-up of military infrastructure all along the unresolved 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Though it woke up quite late, India is now fastracking measures like raising of two new specialised infantry mountain divisions and an artillery brigade for Arunachal Pradesh and basing of two Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons (36 fighters) each at Tezpur and Chabua in Assam.

India is also looking to deploy the 3,500-km Agni-III and the under-development over 5,000-km Agni-V ballistic missiles as soon as possible. While Agni-III will be operationally ready by 2011-2012, the two new infantry divisions, with 1,260 officers and 35,011 soldiers, will be in place by 2012.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 577195.cms

[Srivastav]

It won't take the Chinese long to understand carrier warfare.

Sir, how do you know this, its different to copy/reverse engineer an item but learning how to use it depends on your trainers and people of expertise in that field . In other words, you and I both have no idea how long its gonna take china. Yes, basics are easy to understand but what about myriad other problems like escorts, cleansing the carriers path, fighter pilot tactics etc

Although i do agree with you that we cant just sit on our behinds and wait for Chinese to learn how to use their new assets.

[Pratik_S]

It won't take the Chinese long to understand carrier warfare.

Sir, how do you know this, its different to copy/reverse engineer an item but learning how to use it depends on your trainers and people of expertise in that field . In other words, you and I both have no idea how long its gonna take china. Yes, basics are easy to understand but what about myriad other problems like escorts, cleansing the carriers path, fighter pilot tactics etc

Although i do agree with you that we cant just sit on our behinds and wait for Chinese to learn how to use their new assets.

I understand that its natural for us Indians to underestimate the Chinese since we don't like them, the Chinese military though not technologically innovative they sure are professional, as a matter of fact almost every military in the world would be able to understand and use their assets. China for decades have faced the threats of facing a war with countries with carriers. First the USSR and now the USA. So they must have studied carrier warfare should have a good idea how to kill it thus giving them a effective knowledge of how to us it.

[shukla]

J&K militants, Maoists..getting access to Chinese guns?

Products from China have not only made inroads into the general Indian consumer market but also the terror network here with Northeast insurgents, Jammu and Kashmir militants and Naxalites taking up small arms from the Dragon land.

http://www.ptinews.com/news/520204_Chin ... s-in-India

[Srivastav]

I understand that its natural for us Indians to underestimate the Chinese since we don't like them, the Chinese military though not technologically innovative they sure are professional, as a matter of fact almost every military in the world would be able to understand and use their assets. China for decades have faced the threats of facing a war with countries with carriers. First the USSR and now the USA. So they must have studied carrier warfare should have a good idea how to kill it thus giving them a effective knowledge of how to us it.

Again valid points by you but learning how to tackle a CBG is completely different from operating your own. You might see this as Indians underestimating china but i see this as a more pragmatic way of looking at china's eventual access to carriers.

Your point regarding China must know "how to kill carriers so it should know how to use them" is difficult to understand at best. As for, "as a matter of fact almost every military in the world would be able to understand and use their assets", using the assets and effectively using are 2 different things

China IS and WILL face teething issues with its Carriers and there is no 2 ways about It. Again you are not getting my point its very easy to make paper plans but real experience is gained through experience.

China can make all these plans but end of the day they are just plans. Thats why they are rebuilding Varyag, so that there pilots/sailors etc can train and be ready when their first real carrier is ready for deployment.

But you are welcome to have your opinion as iam mine.

[svinayak]

Americans put the first stealth sat in orbit in 1990, so its done aready.
Read Project MISTY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misty_(classified_project)

[hide]
v • d • e
US reconnaissance satellites
IMINT
Photographic
KH-1 CORONA · KH-2 CORONA · KH-3 CORONA · KH-4A CORONA · KH-4B CORONA · KH-5 ARGON · KH-6 LANYARD · KH-7 GAMBIT · KH-8 GAMBIT · KH-9 HEXAGON · KH-10 DORIAN
Electro-optical
SAMOS · KH-11 KENNAN · KH-12 · KH-13 · FIA
Synthetic aperture radar
LACROSSE ·
Infrared
·
SIGINT
Low Earth orbit
GRAB · Poppy · White Cloud · SAMOS F
Highly elliptical orbit
Jumpseat · Trumpet
Geosynchronous Earth orbit
Canyon · Magnum · Mentor · Mercury · Rhyolite/Aquacade · Vortex
MASINT
Primary mission
FORTE · GPS · DMSP · Vela
Secondary mission
MIDAS · DSP · SBIRS
Research and
development
Primary mission
MiTEx ·
Secondary mission
·
Unknown
USA number
USA-193 · USA-202

[shukla]

Cyber-wars: China Vs UK

Leaked MI5's report of Chinese cyber excursions against the Brits..

he report describes how China has attacked British defence, energy, communications and manufacturing companies in a concerted hacking crusade. It also details how undercover intelligence officers from the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) and the Ministry of Public Security approached UK businessmen at trade fairs and exhibitions, offering them ‘lavish hospitality’ and presenting nice ‘gifts’. Unfortunately for the recipients of the famed Chinese hospitality, the gifted cameras and memory sticks, tokens of Chinese friendship, contained electronic Trojan bugs which could enable hackers to remotely access their computers. According to the MI5 report, the Chinese government “represents one of the most significant espionage threats to the UK”.

China was also accused of ‘bugging and burgling’ UK business executives and setting up ‘honeytraps to later blackmail them’.

Unreal... Check it out..
http://sify.com/news/Cyberwar-and-the-8 ... fhdha.html

[Pratik_S]

China IS and WILL face teething issues with its Carriers and there is no 2 ways about It. Again you are not getting my point its very easy to make paper plans but real experience is gained through experience.
China can make all these plans but end of the day they are just plans. Thats why they are rebuilding Varyag, so that there pilots/sailors etc can train and be ready when their first real carrier is ready for deployment.

Agreed, they will face teething problem but again they will be "just teething problems". Since you mentioned about effectively using the vessel, they should be able to do so because they were planning this since 1990s and have studied carrier warfare for decades hence they should have developed tactics and strategies.
Varyag is a good carrier and in terms of capability its better than Indian carriers. It can carry more fighters however its not clear what other systems it will carry and more importantly fighters. Lack of availability of carrier based fighters is the only thing stopping them which is good for us.

[VinodTK]

Younger brother concerned about older brother.

India unveils 5-year military buildup plan against China

[shukla]

China’s Arms Sales to Latin America..

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cac ... 960d5733b0

[VinodTK]

Indians offer help to China shipping

[NRao]

Indians offer help to China shipping

Knock one thing off the table.

Now get Pakis off the table. That would help a ton.

[Pratik_S]

its a good way to keep PLAN out of the Indian ocean but I don't think the Chinese are going to agree to this.

[abhishek_sharma]

Think Again: China's Military

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... s_military

[shukla]

China circled by chain of US anti-missile systems

Analysts say that China is closely monitoring US-India missile defense cooperation since any integration of India into the US global missile defense system, would profoundly affect China's security.

However, according to former Chinese Ambassador to India Pei Yuanying, India is unlikely to be part of any such US scheme against China.

"New Delhi needs to develop relations with the US, but it wants to be an independent international power on the international arena," he said.

[shukla]

India should be transparent about intentions: Chinese media

[Carl_T]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12432

The Indian Air Force is planning to hold a joint war game with the Chinese Air Force in 2012, even as it prepares to showcase its capabilities to fight a war during "day, dusk and night" on February 28 in Rajasthan [ Images ].

The planning for the joint exercise with China's Peoples Liberation Army (air force) had already commenced and the exercise will be held keeping with its policy of joining an international war game biennially, IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said on Monday.

Is this a good idea??

[Craig Alpert]

China to avoid investing in PoK for success of Indo-Pak talks

BEIJING: China has told visiting Pakistani foreign minister Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi that it wants to avoid action like investing in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, which might hamper the proposed India-Pakistan peace talks, according to an expert close to the Chinese foreign ministry.

“China does not want to invest in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Chinese government knows Kashmir is a sensitive issue and a disputed area,” Ma Jaili, senior researcher at the State-run Institute of Contemporary International Relations told TNN.

China is conscious about India's sensitivities when it deals with Pakistan, he said. Most observers feel that any Chinese presence in PoK in the form of infrastructure building will come in the way of India-Pakistan peace talks.

Indian foreign ministry officials said they have picked up similar signals suggesting that China was not interested in any deterioration in India-Pakistani relation at this time. Beijing is more concerned about the unstable political situation within Pakistan and in Afghanistan partly because the Taliban exerts some influence over rebels in Xingjian in western China.

Qureshi had talks with Chinese foreign minister Yang Jiechi on Monday and is scheduled to meet premier Wen Jiabao on Tuesday. He is seeking China’s advice on the London conference on Afghanistan and the proposed peace dialogue with India. This is his first visit to China as foreign minister in the Zardari regime.

“This visit is important because of the security situation in Pakistan. The situation has become more serious after US president Barack Obama decided to send more troops to Afghanistan,” Ma said. China will consider supporting Pakistan by offering to train more military and para-military forces and extend financial aid. But it would do nothing to cause unease in New Delhi, he said. China might also be reluctant to extend help for establishing more nuclear plants in Pakistan at this time, he said.

Qureshi told the Chinese media that the outcome of talks with India “depends on the response from Indian side”. The peace process between the two countries was proceeding well, but India unfortunately suspended the talks after the Mumbai incident, he said. He earlier told the Pakistani media that he was “optimistic” about the talks.

The London conference, organized by the British government, is important to China because it might result in greater role for India in Afghanistan as well as enhance the operations of western powers. China has reasons to worry for reasons of its domestic politics as well.

The Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan are known to offer training and resources to Uighur separatists operating in the Xingjian region in western China. This is one of the reasons why China maintains a close relationship with both political and military leadership in Pakistan.

Qureshi will make a presentation at a government run think-tank on Tuesday and also visit Shanghai during his 5-day visit to China.

[shukla]

Will US sell F-16's to Taiwan??

The U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency report obtained Monday by The Associated Press says "far fewer of these are operationally capable," an unusually strong indictment of Taiwanese defense readiness.

By pointing out the island's shortcomings, the report could provide justification for Washington to grant a Taiwanese request for relatively advanced F-16 jet fighters, a key element in its arms procurement wish list.

Pentagon paints grim picture of Taiwan air defense

[shukla]

China, India .. Can trading partners also be strategic adversaries?

[Sudip]

Why AirSea Battle

A report by the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments
Chapter 2 (pg 23 to pg 35) discusses chinese military threats and strategies from a US perspective.

[Philip]

PLAN future naval power is rapidly becoming a cause for concern with the USN.

http://www.uwmpost.com/2010/03/01/holme ... val-power/

[quote]Holmes demands ‘great decisions’ about Chinese naval power
By Tom Swieciak

UW-Milwaukee’s Great Decisions lecture series continued last Tuesday with a sobering presentation on naval strategy in East Asia by James Holmes, associate professor at the Naval War College.

Holmes cited China’s growing naval prowess as a proverbial game-changer for the U.S. in the eternal struggle for global maritime supremacy.

“The Chinese are clearly on the march here,” Holmes said, referencing an impressive display of Chinese military naval power, with a slide depicting a high-tech ship that would rival anything in the U.S. Navy.

quote]

[Srivastav]

Not a guru but here is what i think the reason is.

US forces need a bugaboo/bogeyman...first it was cold war USSR, then all the hidden WMD's and now China. If something is not there which supposedly can harm US interests the military wont get all the funding it wants. They need to create a potential adversary who is superior or comparable to get the funding for all the weapon systems etc they are developing or buying.

Also - Less weapon systems production/development etc > less money to hire workers > angry populace > senator unkil scared to loose his job = create Satan and justify spending.

On the question why China and not India, thats simple too. India has never been aggressive and it will be pretty difficult to portray the land of slumdog millionaire (sorry but i had to use it here) as blood thirsty adversary. Whereas China is the ungodly communist super power with light sabers and X- wing planes out to destroy the world.

once again just my simplistic views onlee.

edit - maybe unkil suffers from superman complex or it is mostly economic as i think it is.

[jaladipc]

There were millions of direct and indirect jobs hanging with the defence companies in US.Any shortage of an adversary thereby reducing budget will lead to jobs loss and stops the R&D where US will loose its edge.

To promote its R&D and to let its citizens survive ,US needs a random enemy all the time.

But the thing with US is,it chooses its enemies and makes someone as an enemy.

[Rahul M]

nukavarapu, both the postors above have raised points I would have. in addition, please go through the earlier pages of this very thread for a more detailed discussion of PLAN and IN. there will be much more info than any of us can provide in an one post reply. use the search option if need be.

[suraj p]

nukavarapu, both the postors above have raised points I would have. in addition, please go through the earlier pages of this very thread for a more detailed discussion of PLAN and IN. there will be much more info than any of us can provide in an one post reply. use the search option if need be.

How sophisticated is Indian - RADAR, electronic WF, anti-electronic WF technology compared to China.

Can we say the RADARS or other electronic equipment used on Shivalik or any wing of Armed forces is superior to Dragons equipment.

China being a 'XEROX copier' - that spies and replicate technologies from other countries, how far they have reached. How good are their MMR technology.

Israel does not develop vessels, air planes or tanks, it buys them and installs state-of-art tech developed by Israelis. It is like - Selecting a pauper and making him into Warren Buffett in 2 months.

It is more encouraging situation, If our Shivaliks or other Frigates are moderate in performance but the electronic technology is the sexiest performers - We are superior in far great extent.

[shukla]

China announces 7.5% increase in defense spending for 2010

[VinodTK]

China-built large civil copter to make first flight