China Military Watch

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Thomas Kolarek
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 07 Sep 2010 07:37

India should gradually build up diplomacy making a point that any attack on its territorial control, would not be considered limited and the attacking enemy would face the wrath of the mother India. When and how they convey the message, is up to the diplomats. Thats their job.
On the Military point of view, Chinese will be foolish to attack India, knowing the mutual capabilities, if they dare do with new assertiveness (which they claim), prolong the limited war with Nuke threat and cut off Pak-China so called border, we need Russians and America's help for it.
At the end of the day, if India gets 10 years of current economic development, all our problems will gradually disappear at the end of the 11th year. Thats my 2 cents.

sum
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sum » 07 Sep 2010 08:45

Indira Gandhi, in 1971, had spies for the US rounded up and summarily executed-yep without benefit of judicial process, in democratic India.


Report this post

:eek: :eek:
Is there any link on the same ( even it is a site of rumours)?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 07 Sep 2010 11:33

The best example for preventing espionage and dealing with treason,is to set an example of those found guilty.Swift trials in permanent special courts meant for these and terror cases,plus swifter executions will do the trick.One is not advocating "kangaroo courts" as those disgraceful entities in Iraq that strung up Saddam and co.,but "rapid result" courts equipped with all the aids neccessary for the task in transparent trials.Public executions of traitors,along with corrupt babus,politicos,etc, flogged and placed in the "stocks" for lesser crimes will send the message to all concerned.If Mrs.G. did indeed deal with traitors as alleged,hats off to her!

The latest doubts on China's transparency in security matters.

"...China has the most active land-based ballistic and cruise missile programme in the world and that it is developing an anti-ship ballistic missile with a range of more than 1,500km, capable of attacking aircraft carriers in the western Pacific."

Pentagon demands on Chinese military impossible, warn scholarsUS says secrecy raises potential for 'miscalculation' but experts say China cannot reach desired level of transparency
Tania Branigan in Beijing and agencies

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... s-pentagon

Xcpts:
Pentagon demands on Chinese military impossible, warn scholars.
US says secrecy raises potential for 'miscalculation' but experts say China cannot reach desired level of transparency

China's military cannot meet Washington's expectations of transparency, scholars in Beijing warned today, after a report from the US defence department said the secrecy of the People's Liberation Army was increasing the potential for "misunderstanding and miscalculation".

The annual Pentagon report was published amid frictions between the countries over US arms sales to Taiwan, US naval drills with South Korea and China's growing confidence in the South China Seas. It argues that despite modest improvements in the PLA's openness, "the limited transparency in China's military and security affairs enhances uncertainty and increases the potential for misunderstanding and miscalculation."


This year China announced that the military budget would rise by 7.5% to 532.11bn yuan (£51.7bn), after two decades of double-digit annual increases. Experts suggested the slowdown reflected Chinese concerns about the way it was perceived, as well as financial constraints. China argues that spending remains well below US levels and that US capabilities remain far superior.

The Pentagon believes that China's actual military spending is roughly double the stated level. Its report says China has the most active land-based ballistic and cruise missile programme in the world and that it is developing an anti-ship ballistic missile with a range of more than 1,500km, capable of attacking aircraft carriers in the western Pacific.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Christopher Sidor » 07 Sep 2010 12:42

VinodTK wrote:^^^^^
India actually holds the upper hand as it only has to not be defeated. China needs to have an overwhelming victory.
In a full scale war China will be able to absorb the cost and will be willing to pay in blood. I do not think India can take any defeat at this stage in its economic development/transformation.


India can absorb the cost of war in the east. It will not be a victory for India in the traditional sense as in 1971 or 1965. But China will not be able to repeat a 1962 either. And a victory denied to China is a victory for India. Further we only lack the logistics capability to carry forward the war in the Himalayas. We have the required manpower and the required economic base to carry on.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Manishw » 07 Sep 2010 13:05

^ Agree any war this time has to be taken into Tibet.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby P Chitkara » 07 Sep 2010 14:37

We definitely will need long cruise missiles in hundreds to take out their infra in Tibet and cut them off in case of hostilities. That may, in the end be one of the most important factor in a conflict with panda. The psychological edge those numbers will give will be an additional spin off.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 10 Sep 2010 13:54

China's Great (Quantum) Leap Forward

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 87,00.html

China's R&D into sub commns. using blue lasers.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 11 Sep 2010 11:13

Hard on the heels of the drunken Chinese UN ambassador ranting at the Yanquis,comes the ascerbic comments of the singer Morrrisey of the Smiths,calling the Chinese a "sub-species"! Perhaps the two deserve each other.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/musi ... issey.html

Xcpts:
Chinese are 'subspecies' claims Morrissey
Morrissey, the sharp tongued former frontman of the Smiths, has once again courted controversy by describing the Chinese as a "subspecies".

By Richard Alleyne
The singer, who has been accused of racism in the past, made the comment in relation to what he describes as their poor treatment of animals.

Famously a Vegan, the singer who once penned the song Meat Is Murder, said: "Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific.

Related Articles
Hu Jintao's son linked to African corruption probe

"You can't help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies."

Morrissey, 51, made the comments during an interview with the poet Simon Armitage in the Guardian Weekend magazine.
It is not the first time he has made controversial remarks about other races.
In 2007 he told the NME, "The gates of England are flooded. The country's been thrown away."

When asked if the star, who was living in Rome at the time, would return to England, he replied that Britain is "a terribly negative place".

"Also, with the issue of immigration, it's very difficult, because although I don't have anything against people from other countries, the higher the influx into England, the more the British identity disappears," he added.

"England is a memory now. The change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country.

"If you walk through Knightsbridge on any bland day of the week you won't hear an English accent. You'll hear every accent under the sun apart from the British accent."

He once performed on stage draped in a Union Jack and his songs have included lyrics such as "Life is hard enough when you belong here" and "England for the English".

For his part Morrissey has always denied any racist tendencies.

After the NME article, he issued a statement along with a writ.
"I abhor racism and oppression or cruelty of any kind and will not let this pass without being absolutely clear and emphatic with regard to what my position is," he said.
"Racism is beyond common sense and I believe it has no place in our society."
He also once donated money to an anti-racism concert.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby gnair » 12 Sep 2010 10:59

One aspect that we don't seem to be taking into consideration in our advantage is, if the next India-China war breaks out, the assumption on both sides is a slug fest at the border, with the red force at a geographical and scale advantage. How about us enlarging the theater of battle to the Gulf of Aden and up to the Straits of Melaka and making sure, not one of their economic supply chain ships transit the Indian ocean. For sure PLAN will get active from Gwadar and maybe even Hambantota, if they had their way. But it'll still be an overstretch for the PLAN at current growth rates to handle the IN of the future. The transit passage is just too long for them from the Middle East region. But the dhoti brigade in Delhi has to get their act together and not sit on decisions regarding capital acquisitions or policy for that matter. The IN aerial, surface and sub-surface capability should be in a position to create havoc with their export oriented economy for not less than six months, after the first day of serious provocation and loss of life.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 13 Sep 2010 15:08

Chinese bravado as their mini deepwater-sub descends to the ocean depths (like the Russians earlier in the Arctic waters) giving them an advantage in undersea mining for the future and in establishing maritime territorial rights

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/scien ... ss&emc=rss

China Explores a Frontier 2 Miles DeepBy WILLIAM J. BROAD
Published: September 11, 2010

When three Chinese scientists plunged to the bottom of the South China Sea in a tiny submarine early this summer, they did more than simply plant their nation’s flag on the dark seabed.

Wang Wensheng/ChinaFotoPress
The Jiaolong submersible planted a Chinese flag on the bottom of the South China Sea during a two-mile-deep dive in June.
Video: China Submersible Travels to the Bed of the South China Sea (via CNTV)

The men, who descended more than two miles in a craft the size of a small truck, also signaled Beijing’s intention to take the lead in exploring remote and inaccessible parts of the ocean floor, which are rich in oil, minerals and other resources that the Chinese would like to mine. And many of those resources happen to lie in areas where China has clashed repeatedly with its neighbors over territorial claims.

After the flag planting, which was done in secret but recorded in a video, Beijing quickly turned the feat of technology into a show of bravado.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 13 Sep 2010 15:16

naval blockades are utterly difficult to enforce in general shipping lanes far away from destination shores. perhaps 300 container ships and 300 tankers must be passing daily through the bay of bengal to malacca. only some would be china bound directly and some via other ports of call. how do you stop and commandeer such a vast and unruly collection of ships owned by 20 different flags with their own legal issues? a dozen navies are making heavy
weather of controlling the somalian shore.

since we cannot send a vast surface fleet to the seas near china to impound and chase away ships from the inshore part of the shipping lanes, the only other recourse is to declare the area as off limits to merchant ships and subject to submarine attack. this will drive up insurance rates and some carriers may refuse to sail. but again all the big trading partners of PRC would not be pleased to not get their daily fix of electronics and stuff. and this is a game
if you plan with 25 SSNs it might work, not with a paltry 10 SSK and 1 SSN...it doesnt even address the problem.

as things stand today our military capabilities would be hard pressed to draw a bead on vital military and strategic targets in the hinterland..there
are so many on such a vast frontage from kashgar down to yunnan, let alone play tom clancy in the yellow sea!

come back with 15 world class SSNs then we can talk :)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby shukla » 13 Sep 2010 16:28

Copy-cat China in trouble with Russia

Chinese version of Russian jet endangers bilateral relations

Despite holding the position as one of the world’s biggest economies, China seems unwilling to shed its reputation for producing cheap replicas. One of their more ambitious copycat efforts may put a strain on Russia-China relations.

“This Chinese plane is simply a Russian design stuffed with local electronics,” says Maksim Pyadushkin from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technology about the Chinese J11B jet’s resemblance to the Russian Su-27. “It's a knock-off.”


China was given the design plans for the Russian fighter jet in 1995, when it promised to buy 200 kits and assemble them domestically. After building 100 planes, the Chinese said the Russian plane did not meet specifications, only for a copycat version soon to appear – "Made in China" – without copyright.

The threat from China is real, and it will be difficult for the Russian aviation industry to maintain its lofty position, and soar further unless it manages to better protect its intellectual rights and also find new ways of co-operating with its eastern neighbor. Although it made its maiden flight over 30 years ago, the Su-27 remains the bedrock of the Russian air force, and is highly popular abroad.

“I don't think anyone who's flown on the SU-27 can ask for a different plane, unless we are talking about a new generation jet,” believes Lt. Colonel Andrey Alekseyev, Air Force Pilot. “It's maneuverable and has a huge range.” Some are calling for calm over the controversy. While the similarities between the two planes are clear, experts say the Chinese J11B does not have the latest Russian high-tech features and will be no match for it on the international market.

The best way to fight copyright violations is to be technologically ahead of your rivals, claims Maksim Pyadushkin from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technology. “The biggest problem for Russia is that it has been living off the legacy of the Soviet Union, and soon its technology may no longer be the world leader,” he asserts. Rather than a continuing dogfight over the copycat plane, it is possible that Russia and China may yet settle the matter amicably – at the highest political level. But in the shady world of international weapons copyright, similar cases are sure to follow.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby shukla » 14 Sep 2010 17:48

From the horses mouth..

China building aircraft carrier: Maj Gen Mao Xinyu

hina is building an aircraft carrier, close on the heels of developing carrier-killer missiles and advanced nuclear submarines, with the confirmation of it coming from none other than Maj Gen Mao Xinyu, the grandson of Mao Zedong. The Mao junior, who has been a strong advocate of the Chinese Navy acquiring the big ships to counter US naval superiority, confirmed that Chinese marine forces were building a carrier, without specifying its tonnage.

"As a General, I was very interested in the development of the Second Artillery Corps and our Marine forces. I am glad to know that the marines are constructing the first aircraft carrier," the General was quoted as saying by the web edition of the state run 'Global Times' Tuesday. Despite building a strong navy with a host of warships and submarines, China so far did not have an aircraft carrier and speculation has been rife in the West that Beijing is building one, but there was no confirmation so far.

Recently, influential Japanese daily 'The Asahi Shimbun' had said that China would produce its first aircraft carrier within five years. US naval intelligence sources have said that China is building two 50,000-60,000 ton aircraft carriers to be equipped with Russian SU-22 fighters. These are expected to be ready by 2015. There have also been reports that China may opt to build nuclear powered carriers.

There is a steady build of public opinion by official media in recent weeks for developing carriers in the light of steady rise in military tensions in the Korean peninsula as well as China's plans to build dominant blue water navy on the lines of its rival US.


"Like all Chinese, I hope our marines can have an aircraft-carrier. This is a matter of national dignity as well as sovereignty. As long as we have our own aircraft carrier, the naming of it (after Mao) is no big deal," he said in an interaction with media in connection with the 34th death anniversary of his grandfather, the architect of China's revolution.

Mao Junior has also said the Chinese military should strictly function under the guidance and the ruling communist party. Asked about the US Rand Corporation report that it was not modernisation of the Chinese army that world should worry but the thoughts of Mao Zedong, Mao Junior said Rand report was confident that in terms of modernisation, Chinese troops wouldn't match the American military.

"However we have the Mao Zedong thoughts, our precious tradition, which made us invincible (in Korean and Vietnam Wars). We should uphold two principles. The first is the Party guides the gun, and our troops can only achieve victory under the leadership of the Party."

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby svinayak » 14 Sep 2010 20:13

Singha wrote:naval blockades are utterly difficult to enforce in general shipping lanes far away from destination shores. perhaps 300 container ships and 300 tankers must be passing daily through the bay of bengal to malacca.

since we cannot send a vast surface fleet to the seas near china to impound and chase away ships from the inshore part of the shipping lanes, the only other recourse is to declare the area as off limits to merchant ships and subject to submarine attack. this will drive up insurance rates and some carriers may refuse to sail.

as things stand today our military capabilities would be hard pressed to draw a bead on vital military and strategic targets in the hinterland..there
are so many on such a vast frontage from kashgar down to yunnan, let alone play tom clancy in the yellow sea!

come back with 15 world class SSNs then we can talk :)


The distance between the southern tip of the last island to the sumatra is only 80km.
40Km is India zone and that can be covered by surface ships and submarines.
Also the deep waters can be under the control of India.
40% of the world trade passes in that area. Markers can be put into Chinese ships through air and satellites.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby sarkar » 14 Sep 2010 20:44

shukla wrote:China is building an aircraft carrier...

Now our Subs will have something to hunt for. Good :wink:

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby manum » 14 Sep 2010 20:54

sarkar wrote:
shukla wrote:China is building an aircraft carrier...

Now our Subs will have something to hunt for. Good :wink:


Love the attitude... :)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby VinodTK » 15 Sep 2010 03:32

deleted.
Last edited by Rahul M on 15 Sep 2010 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: unacceptable source.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Juggi G » 15 Sep 2010 03:44

EU Remains Torn On Lifting China Arms Embargo
Defense News
We discussed delivering arms to China but did not advance at all towards a solution or joint position", French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said at the close of two days of informal talks with his 26 EU counterparts.

"France has Long been Favorable to Ending the Embargo", He said. "But We Need a Joint Stand."

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Anantz » 15 Sep 2010 23:26

As per current assessments, PLA has the capacity to air transport approximate a division plus (15,000 troops) in one go and air drop a regiment worth (3,000 troops) in a single airlift. Its heli-lift capacity is nearly two battalions in a single lift. This capability was on display during exercise ‘Stride-2009’, involving transportation of 50,000 troops from four major regional military commands — stationed in the cities of Shenyang, Lanzhou, Jinan and Guangzhou. The sophisticated nature of the far-flung deployments together with projected manoeuvres 12 — 1600 km away from their bases was an exceptional power projection display that involved rapid force mobilisation using high-speed civilian rail and air links.


I did an analysis of the transport fleet of both the PLAAF and the IAF. My research on the internet gave the following as the inventory of Medium to Heavy lift fleet of both the Indian Airforce and the PLAAF,

India: (Operational as per BR Fleet page)
HS-748: 64
An-32 : 104
IL-76: 15

China: (As per wiki)
Y-7 (An-26): 23
Y-8 (An-12): 40
IL-76: 10 (As per SIPRI)

The gross tonnage for both the fleets is as below.

India:
HS-748: 64 X 5 T = 320 T
An-32: 104 X 7.5 T = 780 T
IL-76: 15 X 50 T = 750 T

Total Airlift Tonnage = 1850 T

China:
Y-7 (An-26): 23 X 5.5 T = 126.5 T
Y-8 (An-12): 40 X 20 T = 800 T
IL-76: 10 X 50 T = 500 T

Total Airlift Tonnage = 1426.5 T

So from the above we can deduce that by tonnage alone, the IAF has a greater airlift capability than the PLAAF. Then how is it that there is so much talk of Chinese Airlift capability when we have a much more better capability in terms of tonnage. Does this mean that if push comes to shove we can airlift a greater force than the PLA into theatre?

Also if we compare the number of medium lift helicopters of both China and India, the total numbers of Mi-8/17 helicopters as per SIPRI is

China :
Mi-8/17: 174 (procured so far from USSR as well as Russia as per SIPRI; Doesn't factor attrition)
India :
Mi-8/17: 150 (Procured 173; Attrition 13)

Again the difference is marginal considering we have larger numbers of light helos like Chetak/ Cheetah than the PLA, and also our ALH is coming up in terms of numbers. If the data I collected is accurate I don't see the reason why we have to be so alarmed about Chinese Rapid reaction forces. Provided we take out their Railway infrastructure in Tibet, both sides will be left with near parity in terms of rapid airlift and troop insertion capability, both in terms of helicopter assault as well as Airdrop.

Hope it helps..
Cheers,
Anant

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby yantra » 16 Sep 2010 03:21

^^^

This link seems to give different numbers for China - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s ... ce#Current

Shaanxi Y-8 China Multi-purpose transport 40
Xian Y-7 China transport 23
Shijiazhuang Y-5 China utility transport 300
Ilyushin Il-76 Soviet Union transport Il-76MD 20 Soviet Ilyushin Il-76 medium-range transport

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Anantz » 16 Sep 2010 09:47

Hi Yantra,

I didnt take the Y-5 into factor because it is an almost obsolete light aircraft useful mainly for communications purpose, with a useful load of 2140 kg and at the max 12 passengers I didn't factor it for military airlift.

Also the 10 figure for IL-76 MD, is what i have taken from SIPRI arms trade register as I found conflicting numbers over the internet and I somehow didnt trust wiki. It could be that the IL-76 numbers mentioned in wiki took all including IL-78 and A-50 currently in service with the PLAAF.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby D Roy » 16 Sep 2010 12:55

keeping the Y-5 out is fine, precisely because you have not considered IAF Dornier 228s either.

You can factor in Il-78 MKIs and MKKs into this comparison as well since both are capable of the swing role.

the point is India had a big advantage in airlift at one point in time. That big adv has got eroded and needs to be built up again.

And for that C-17s in greater numbers than what is planned currently would be a good idea.

On an off topic and side note. In the eighties the economic asymmetry between India and China wasn't anything worth mentioning. We also had in place a force structure that was quite formidable for the time.

And we had a huge huge advantage over the PLAAF. If we had weaponized quickly in the early eighties given that the Soviets were still around , it was the ideal time to have taught China a lesson. And I think Sundarji thought on the same lines.

A similar moment may come again in the third decade from now if we keep growing at 9-10 per cent and Chinese growth falters.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Sep 2010 13:40

i dont see a hot war between india and china, but a cold one... definitely, and proxy wars... well, even after the end of pakistan, these will continue
as others have said, we need a new forward policy, but a diplomatic one. shift the onus from our territories and spheres of influence to theirs
much more aggression and independence (even from unkil)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby jai » 16 Sep 2010 13:56

China:
Y-7 (An-26): 23 X 5.5 T = 126.5 T
Y-8 (An-12): 40 X 20 T = 800 T
IL-76: 10 X 50 T = 500 T


Dragon is pretty good at concealing facts and information...what with the total control on media and web..therefore very little credible information would be available in the public domain anyway.

However, this should not represent by any means that we are in a better position...we are not.

Unconfirmed reports peg the actual heavy lift capability of the dragon as much higher...some say even up to 350 AC. Reportedly over 100 Y8's have been built and available...many operating under civilian registration...which seems to be a regular trick used by the Panda to disguise some of its military assets.

There are also commercial transports available, along with airliners for troop movement..these numbers would never show on most reports.

The number of Heli's is also reportedly much higher....including more MI 17's (around 260 - however unconfirmed) and even some S 70's.

Additionally, there are some 34 IL 76 on order, Local production of Y9's underway (reported lift capability of 20T) and design projects also underway (for some time) to produce C919 transport (180 - 190 passengers) and one super large transport - comparable to AN 124 (with some claims on the web to have a 200T lift capacity !) ..which in typical Dragon fashion we would get to know about only once its flying.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby P Chitkara » 16 Sep 2010 14:51

I thought IL76 production line was closed?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby jai » 16 Sep 2010 15:48

Apparently, the production is to shift to Ulyanovsk from Tashkent..

"as long (soon) as the (Russian) Ulyanovsk aviation plant mastered (s) the modern upgrades Il Il -76 -476 production technology, we will immediately restore the supply on the aircraft and (conclude ?) the Chinese side of the negotiating process. "




[url = http://www.china-daily.org/Mil-News/Rus ... e-engines/]

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Christopher Sidor » 16 Sep 2010 17:28

Anantz wrote:
As per current assessments, PLA has the capacity to air transport approximate a division plus (15,000 troops) in one go and air drop a regiment worth (3,000 troops) in a single airlift. Its heli-lift capacity is nearly two battalions in a single lift. This capability was on display during exercise ‘Stride-2009’, involving transportation of 50,000 troops from four major regional military commands — stationed in the cities of Shenyang, Lanzhou, Jinan and Guangzhou. The sophisticated nature of the far-flung deployments together with projected manoeuvres 12 — 1600 km away from their bases was an exceptional power projection display that involved rapid force mobilisation using high-speed civilian rail and air links.


I did an analysis of the transport fleet of both the PLAAF and the IAF. My research on the internet gave the following as the inventory of Medium to Heavy lift fleet of both the Indian Airforce and the PLAAF,

India: (Operational as per BR Fleet page)
HS-748: 64
An-32 : 104
IL-76: 15

China: (As per wiki)
Y-7 (An-26): 23
Y-8 (An-12): 40
IL-76: 10 (As per SIPRI)

The gross tonnage for both the fleets is as below.

India:
HS-748: 64 X 5 T = 320 T
An-32: 104 X 7.5 T = 780 T
IL-76: 15 X 50 T = 750 T

Total Airlift Tonnage = 1850 T

China:
Y-7 (An-26): 23 X 5.5 T = 126.5 T
Y-8 (An-12): 40 X 20 T = 800 T
IL-76: 10 X 50 T = 500 T

Total Airlift Tonnage = 1426.5 T

So from the above we can deduce that by tonnage alone, the IAF has a greater airlift capability than the PLAAF. Then how is it that there is so much talk of Chinese Airlift capability when we have a much more better capability in terms of tonnage. Does this mean that if push comes to shove we can airlift a greater force than the PLA into theatre?

Also if we compare the number of medium lift helicopters of both China and India, the total numbers of Mi-8/17 helicopters as per SIPRI is

China :
Mi-8/17: 174 (procured so far from USSR as well as Russia as per SIPRI; Doesn't factor attrition)
India :
Mi-8/17: 150 (Procured 173; Attrition 13)

Again the difference is marginal considering we have larger numbers of light helos like Chetak/ Cheetah than the PLA, and also our ALH is coming up in terms of numbers. If the data I collected is accurate I don't see the reason why we have to be so alarmed about Chinese Rapid reaction forces. Provided we take out their Railway infrastructure in Tibet, both sides will be left with near parity in terms of rapid airlift and troop insertion capability, both in terms of helicopter assault as well as Airdrop.

Hope it helps..
Cheers,
Anant


The figures which you have quoted are present figures, and are true up to a certain point. But they do not take into account the projected increase or the planned increase which the Chinese are going to do. Also our air lift capability, is purely for defending our northern and eastern frontiers. It is more of a reflection on our lack of road and rail capability to our frontier.
We have seen how unreliable our air drop capability was in 1962, when many of our rations and supplies landed in Chinese hands. Even then our air lift capability was significant as compared to the Chinese.

Our fighters and air transport planes take off from lower altitude and plains, while the Chinese aircraft cannot. So as a general rule of thumb our planes can carry more load, compared to those of Chinese aircraft taking off from tibet. Off course China can lengthen the runways on the Tibetan plateau so that their planes can take off with higher payload, but longer runways are not the entire solution to the problem. That is why China is focusing so intensely on rail/road links to Tibet.

Also with its existing airlift capability and the recently completed joint exercises, PLA can airdrop a significant number of para troopers into Tibet. But the same capability can also be used to drop para troopers across the McMohan line. That is why it is so troubling. Delhi is not that far off from the Himachal-Tibet Border. Calcutta is not far from the sikkim-Tibet-Bhutan trijunction. This capability is a harbinger of things to come.

Philip
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Philip » 16 Sep 2010 17:56

"China Demands...".rrogant China demands that the Japanese enter into talks and compromise n everything that Chna demands!

China demands Japan takes steps to resolve dispute over terrritorial waters
China called for "concrete actions" from Japan to resolve a bitter row over Tokyo's arrest of a Chinese boat captain in disputed waters, which Beijing called an "obstacle" in ties

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... aters.html

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Lisa » 17 Sep 2010 01:26

Juggi G wrote:EU Remains Torn On Lifting China Arms Embargo
Defense News
We discussed delivering arms to China but did not advance at all towards a solution or joint position", French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said at the close of two days of informal talks with his 26 EU counterparts.

"France has Long been Favorable to Ending the Embargo", He said. "But We Need a Joint Stand."


There is something this gentleman does not want to discuss, Sanctions.
The US government has already said that it will impose sanctions on any
European contractor that elects to sell military equipment to China.

If in any doubt of US intentions see what they did to Israel when certain
Chinese drones came back for servicing. When Israel was not compliant
their team liasing with Lockheed on F35 had their visas revoked and to all
purposes and intent deported. If I recall correctly the Israeli they held
responsible for liasing with the Chinese was sacked before any further
talks with the US count resume.

By establishing an EU consensus the French would like to share out
equally the misery of these sanctions rather than be their sole
beneficiaries!

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby RamaT » 19 Sep 2010 16:48

I wonder if the French attitude would be adjusted if we were to award them the MMRCA for the Rafaele. Russia has no compunctions but with US on one side and Indian money on the other it might be enough.

Juggi G wrote:EU Remains Torn On Lifting China Arms Embargo
Defense News
We discussed delivering arms to China but did not advance at all towards a solution or joint position", French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said at the close of two days of informal talks with his 26 EU counterparts.

"France has Long been Favorable to Ending the Embargo", He said. "But We Need a Joint Stand."

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby arnabh » 19 Sep 2010 22:34


chackojoseph
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Sep 2010 18:05


Rahul M
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Rahul M » 20 Sep 2010 18:34

nice one chacko. I wonder if PLAN has finally learned to fly choppers at night. ;)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Sep 2010 20:16

Thanks EM, they can't fly helios @ night?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Kartik » 20 Sep 2010 23:20

new variant of Harbin Z-9 helicopter crashes on its maiden flight.

Helicopter crashes in Harbin injuring two
16:25, September 19, 2010
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 45209.html

A helicopter crashed in Harbin, the capital of northeastern Heilongjiang province, on Saturday, causing two injuries and no fatalities, Beijing News reported on Sunday.

It is understood that the helicopter crashed near a village in Pingfang Township on the outskirts of Harbin near the test-flight of the Hafei group at about 11 a.m. It is a new aircraft and crashed when conducting its first test flight. Rescue teams rushed to the scene after the crash and the scene was blocked off by the police.

"Compared to fixed-wing aircrafts, survival chances in helicopters are much greater when crashing," said Mr. Wang, who is a technician and has worked in the helicopter manufacturing industry nearly 20 years.

As long as there is no major damage to the rotor blade, which powers the lift, the helicopter will descend in a tolerable speed, Wang said. And if it has power, the speed of the descent will slow, so people will not be wounded, he said.

The cause of the crash is currently still under investigation.


link

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Craig Alpert » 21 Sep 2010 06:02

Apprehension Over Underdeveloped Border With China
He said that even after 48 years, the situation along the border remained the same.

Manyu said that the roads only touched a few border villages, which were far from the actual border, exposing the vulnerability of the area.

"The existing roads remain cut-off for months like the one that connects Chaglagam in Anjaw which is yet to be cleared," Manyu said pointing out that the Chinese have well developed highways and railways up to the international border.

To meet the situation, the Advisor suggested that mule tracks be developed all along the border to facilitate Army patrol even during the monsoons.

"While the country’s security can be thus maintained, the mule tracks would also facilitate movement of villagers within the state for trade and business purposes," he added.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Hari Seldon » 21 Sep 2010 06:57

Kartik wrote:new variant of Harbin Z-9 helicopter crashes on its maiden flight.

Helicopter crashes in Harbin injuring two
16:25, September 19, 2010
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 45209.html


link


I find this very troubling indeed. It seems even the chinese have given up pretensions to 'face' and are becoming, if slowly, more open to admitting prototype development failures and the like, more like a 'normal' country than the infalliable superpower wannabe. If even the PLA can set aside H&D issues in favor of 'truth', they are a formidable foe indeed.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby PrithviRajChauhan » 22 Sep 2010 00:12


Thomas Kolarek
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 22 Sep 2010 02:47


They keep throwing this s*** as if they own the entire South Asia. Lesson to MMS - Don't bend too much your back to Washington Masters, they stab you there.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby ramana » 22 Sep 2010 20:13

Nightwatch
9/21/2010

China: Two recent developments exemplify China's expanding use of military forces in support of diplomacy and to maintain stability along the borders.

Xinhua reported six Chinese aircraft launched "long-range sudden attacks" in Kazakhstan as part of ongoing anti-terror exercises of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, Chinese Major General Meng Guoping said on 20 September. Four H-6H bombers and two J-10 fighter aircraft participated in the drill, which General Meng described as China's first simulated cross-border strike.

China's air force hopes the exercise will build early warning, command, long-distance bombing, escort and aerial refueling capabilities, the General said.

On 21 September Pakistan's Daily Times reported China's Central Military Commission has approved the deployment of a contingent of four military helicopters to Pakistan to assist in flood relief. The helicopters and crews have participated in disaster relief in China, but this would be the first time China will send military helicopters outside the country on such a mission, Xinhua reported.

This also would be the second military contingent sent to Pakistan. Pakistan's Defense Minister acknowledged the presence of Chinese troops engaged in relief work on the 13th.

Special Comment: Both items manifest China's "emergence" as a "responsible international actor" and help observers deepen their understanding of what the Chinese might mean by those or similar terms.

Since 1990, when China sent five peacekeepers to the Middle East, it has participated in 23 UN peacekeeping missions, according to official Chinese government data. Nearly 10,000 Chinese personnel presently are participating in 12 peacekeeping missions. As a result, China has developed a core of military and police personnel with experience in commanding and sustaining forces in every crisis region of the world and a wide range of terrain and weather conditions.

The deployment of Chinese ships to the anti-piracy patrols off Somalia has been a successful test of capabilities to sustain a limited naval force far from China. It also has enabled China to gauge international reaction to Chinese naval operations far beyond the Asian littoral.

In Asia, China's emergence has been intimidating and less benign. The fishing boat confrontation with Japan is the latest demonstration of the change in style in handling disputes over contested areas. Previously for many years, China deferred discussion of disputed areas in the interest of good neighborliness, especially towards Southeast Asian countries, but it never surrendered any claims. Lately it is asserting those claims openly and bluntly.

A new mission. The simulated scenario for Kazakhstan and the Pakistan relief deployment are part of the emergence, but with a different twist. The Kazakhstan and Pakistan announcements carry special significance for their substance and for the implications of the press releases.

Substantively, the participation of combat aircraft beyond China's borders means that ground forces also must be engaged in such exercises, though not mentioned in the press release. Air forces cannot hold ground and the Chinese practice "joint" training, patterned loosely after US joint doctrine. Chinese joint operations tend to be "coordinated" more than "joint," but they involve ground and air or units from all three armed services working together.

In short, the People's Liberation Army has acknowledged in public that it is training for operations to project Chinese military power beyond China's borders under some conditions for some purposes. Clearly anti-terror operations qualify.

The second substantive point is the target was Kazakhstan, which is not a historic enemy, such as India or Vietnam; not an ally, such as Pakistan, North Korea, and is not a party to a significant Chinese territorial dispute. Like Pakistan, it is a bordering state. Like the helicopter and ground personnel deployments to Pakistan, the simulation involved the use of Chinese military forces in coming to the rescue of a bordering state in trouble.

The press reports are part of the public information program to test international reaction to China's having crossed another threshold as a "responsible great power," namely, policing its neighborhood. That mission expands China's options for responding to requests for help, for example, from the governments of bordering states should they experience an internal instability crisis. Border states at risk are North Korea, Burma and Pakistan, where China already has a military contingent.

Chinese forces are not yet capable of matching the US ability to send relief or provide rescue. The US, for example, sent 30 helicopters to Pakistan for flood relief. Nevertheless, the two developments spotlight China's intentions and near term strategic objective, which is dominance in Asia … all of it.

China-US: Update. On 21 September China expressed concern about the possibility of a joint statement from the United States and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) addressing South China Sea maritime disputes. The Foreign Ministry said internationalization of the maritime issue would complicate rather than help matters.

Comment: China claims almost all of the South China Sea and its resources as part of its national territory by right of succession from the Chinese Empire. Most members of ASEAN have claims to islands, ocean areas and seabed resources that China does not recognize and disputes.

Until recently the Chinese relied on diplomacy to maintain regional stability and the status quo against other claimants. In hindsight that conciliatory approach stands out as a stratagem to freeze the claims until China acquired the military power to back up its claims by force. By asserting its historic claims, China is the agent of instability.

China's assertive and more bellicose style has generated a multi-billion dollar Southeast Asian arms buildup since 2000. Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam have been modernizing or adding new capabilities to their air forces and navies, primarily, to prepare for almost unavoidable confrontations with China in the future.


Can read a lot between the lines.


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