China Military Watch

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Mar 2010 07:25

Brahmananda wrote:Allright guys just found some very cool pics of the J-10 crash, apparently crashed back in 2007 but the pictures have leaked out.

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2010/ ... -down.html

we don't know, but there might have been casualties in this incident. let's not make this a mirth-making matter.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 26 Mar 2010 20:25

Says lots of good things about China's Defence planning in order to achieve National objectives. Not so good things about India's. Ran the risk of quoting the entire article. So not quoting any

Rising Dragon, Slumbering Elephant: Chinese and Indian Defense Planning

Author Laxman Kumar Behera is an associate fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis in New Delhi, India.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 26 Mar 2010 21:25

Hiten wrote:Says lots of good things about China's Defence planning in order to achieve National objectives. Not so good things about India's. Ran the risk of quoting the entire article. So not quoting any

Rising Dragon, Slumbering Elephant: Chinese and Indian Defense Planning

Author Laxman Kumar Behera is an associate fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis in New Delhi, India.

Damn! Not that I did not know of this, but reading makes me go

Till now I had hope that at least IN was on track..but with recent articles about the delays, even Navy seems to have lost track.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Mar 2010 23:56

Apparently, 3 J-10s have crashed to date.

this was posted on Keypub forums by a Chinese (or Taiwanese) poster named Don Chan..

April 2007 (?):
J-10.
5th Regiment, 2nd Division, PLAAF.
Crashed, in Gui Lin, Guang Xi Province.

Rumour: engine malfunctioned, and failed emergency landing.
Two-seater, and both pilots ejected.
Third J-10 crash.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 27 Mar 2010 17:24

Progress and questions in Sino-India security relationship

there are still some unresolved problems between the two countries.

First, border dispute is the root cause affecting bilateral ties. There has never been an official China-India border, which has resulted in a large disputed region. It is difficult to resolve this problem in a short time. India has been strengthening its military occupation over the disputed region by deploying more troops along the border and enhanced the effective control over the disputed area by encouraging people to inhabit it. In the last two years, India made China nervous by sending senior officials to inspect the disputed region.

Second, the lack of trust is an important factor affecting the bilateral ties. China and India are suspicious of their security environment, which has resulted in a lack of strategic trust. India is worried that China’s rise will be a threat to its security, and China’s relationships with other countries, Pakistan in particular, also upset India. Meanwhile, China thinks many Western countries, particularly the U.S., want India to act as a balance to China’s power in Asia and is using India as a pawn in their strategy to contain China.

Third, Chinese naval escorts in the Indian Ocean is an emerging factor affecting bilateral ties. Since last year, piracy has become intense in the Gulf of Aden, which is located in the Indian Ocean. To protect Chinese merchant vessels through the pirate-infested waters, the Chinese navy began to take over escort missions. But India, who has always taken Indian Ocean as its sphere of influence, considers this legitimate move a challenge.

There is fundamental clash of security concepts between China and India that is rooted in history, culture and geopolitics. But as the two largest developing countries in the world, China and India should handle security issues properly. Military trust between the two countries, which is beneficial to people’s interests and regional security, requires both sides to enhance communication and understanding, getting rid of fixed ways of thinking and showing great foresight.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Mar 2010 12:50

http://english.cri.cn/6909/2010/03/15/189s556820.htm

PLA Extends Pilot Training to High Schools
2010-03-15 22:41:30 Xinhua Web Editor: Jiang Aitao

China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force has launched a program to train talented high school students as pilots, military sources said on Monday.

The Air Force had begun a special class in Baoding No. 1 High School, in Hebei Province, to train selected students, Wu Mou, director of the Air Force's bureau responsible for pilot recruitment, told Xinhua.

Twenty-four students from the first grade at the senior high school, will take special physical trainings to improve their flexibility, coordination and balance.

They will also take aviation education programs along with the standard curriculum and operate paramotors and gliders in aviation clubs to gain flying experience.

The students were selected from 350 candidates from 59 high schools in the province after a series of physical and psychological exams.

To become a member of the class, a candidate had to meet strict requirements for height (162cm to 175cm), weight (45kg to 48kg), have a an excellent sense of three-dimensional space and eyesight, according to a regulation issued by the Air Force.

The qualified students should have no criminal record and no girlfriends, according to the regulation.

both are criminal activity I guess.

p.s. I understand it probably means unmarried and that bit has been lost in translation.

sunilpatel · Post by **sunilpatel** » 28 Mar 2010 15:27

Samay wrote:
Russia Looks East and Sees Storm Clouds (Part One)
Its is a fact that china has an eye on the eastern side of russia, may be they already had started capturing small parts of land .

Its also well known that russian army is much reduced in its size since 1990s and hence it would be difficult for them to monitor all those difficult terrain with china(when we have difficulty in keeping pla contingents crossing the borders,think of smaller russian army,that too much corrupT than ever) ,

I think chinese could do a 1962 on russia any time, thats why they are preparing so heavily,, to expand.

if not taiwan,India,SE asia,let it be russia then !!

amirkhan would love that ,lest not involve in this cat fight ,but it is waiting for some reason to block central russia .

good news from india point of view...to be honest we need TIME and planned modernalization of our forces to stand against chine...

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Mar 2010 17:07

Chinese Official Stresses Military Training Necessity

Guo Boxiong, member of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC) and vice chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC), stressed that Party committees at all levels should keep up vigorous military training, boost the innovative development of military training and improve the capabilities of the troops in accomplishing diversified military tasks with the capability of winning local warfare under information-based conditions at the core when making an investigation and study tour in the Nanjing Theatre recently.

Guo Boxiong was accompanied by Xu Qiliang, member of the CMC and commander of the Air Force of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), throughout the investigation and study.

On a training ground, Guo Boxiong watched the demonstration of new equipment operation, IT system-based command exercise and real-equipment and live-shell exercise of brigades and regiments under the Nanjing Military Area Command (MAC) of the PLA.

Guo Boxiong also came to an aviation division of the Air Force of the PLA to visit the officers and men and held discussion with the flight personnel during his investigation and study tour.

Guo Boxiong pointed out that Party committees at all levels should regard strengthening the leadership over military training as an important responsibility, put military training at a strategic position and unswervingly ensure that military training is always the top priority.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 29 Mar 2010 03:37

China's build-up is affecting regional military balance: US

"Of particular concern is that elements of China's military modernisation appear designed to challenge our freedom of action in the region," Willard said.

China knows the time for lying low has ended

This rethink began when the (western) financial meltdown put millions of Chinese out of work in early 2009. The shock undermined a number of Beijing’s basic assumptions. Most significantly, China had “coupled” its growth to the west, becoming an export powerhouse to ensure ever rising standards of living.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Mar 2010 04:44

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

Amalek said on 23 Tuesday 2010 pm31 12:00 pm:
I am an American professor living in China. I rarely run into the firewall, even when I am looking up info on Tiananmen. English sites are rarely blocked. It was not always that way. Some years ago many news sites were blocked, even HP for a while. But that all ended a couple years ago. I think the blocking is much more targeted today. I have VPN service if I need to get past blocking, but is is rarely needed except for facebook and *****. The biggest way they block is by selling a cheap internet service - basically free to students, that accesses only Chinese sites. If they want to go on the WWW, they pay more. I am amused that they have long blocked the DNC site, while leaving the RNC site open. I think they like RNC values better at the Communist Party Headquarters.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 29 Mar 2010 05:59

Peoples Liberation Army no more

Without any fanfare, China has changed the names of its armed forces. Gone are the PLA (Peoples Liberation Army) prefix for the navy (PLAN) and air force (PLAAF). It's now just the Chinese Army, Chinese Navy and Chinese Air Force.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 29 Mar 2010 15:05

Some very good points made by the good Gen.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 29 Mar 2010 23:47

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2009 ... rging.html
this so interesting to read sorry if posted before

I have repeatedly pointed out that the actions of the Beijing government betray attributes of Nazi Germany. On September 1, 2004 in an article entitled “The Real Axis of Evil” I wrote: ”China has emerged as a corporate version of Nazi Germany

Zhu Chenghu of the National Defense University jumped out and announced to the world very loudly that if the Untied States got involved in a war between Taiwan and Mainland China, China would be the first to use nuclear weapons and wipe out hundreds of cities in the United States

However, according to the research conducted by most Chinese scholars, the Chinese are different from other races on earth. We did not originate in Africa. Instead, we originated independently in the land of China.

jimit · Post by **jimit** » 30 Mar 2010 07:47

Sorry if posted before...

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/03 ... er-killer/

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Mar 2010 08:11

jimit wrote:Sorry if posted before...

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/03 ... er-killer/

Check the segment after 7min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-nNVvtacXU

Can somebody translate

jimit · Post by **jimit** » 30 Mar 2010 09:04

Check the segment after 7min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-nNVvtacXU

even I am waiting for translation.
Also have a look at the first .pdf link, its very informative.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 30 Mar 2010 09:27

does the DF-21 carry a MaRV with a radar that can track and lock on an aircraft carrier given its last known location and sailing time of up to 15-30 minutes? with the last known location of the carrier fed by subs and/or sats along with possible mid course updates to the DF-21

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 30 Mar 2010 09:28

Gaur wrote:Some very good points made by the good Gen.
....

Utterly pointless interview! He is merely repeating things everybody already knows!

These "expert interviews" are increasingly becoming more and more redundant as rarely do these "experts" have anything to add that any tom. dick and harry can't read on a dozen website or on BR!

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 30 Mar 2010 09:43

vasu_ray wrote:does the DF-21 carry a MaRV with a radar that can track and lock on an aircraft carrier given its last known location and sailing time of up to 15-30 minutes? with the last known location of the carrier fed by subs and/or sats along with possible mid course updates to the DF-21

It doesnt need a MARV warheads or radar even. It can just as easily use a thermal sensor to pick out the largest signature in a given area and home-in on that. A USN supercarrier is hard to miss compared to the smaller frigates and Ageis.

The most puzzling thing (IMO) about the animation in the video is that it seems to show something like the Rolling Airframe Missile or ESSM taking out the cruise missiles approaching the carrier but they never account for the huge Aegis Terminal Ballistic missile defense system with the SM-3s and the Patriots accompanying the carrier expressly to counter such threats!?

The people who should be really worried are not the USN but the Indian Navy which doesn't have a robust system like the Aegis TBMD tagging along with its carriers!

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 30 Mar 2010 10:24

we could do better by developing our own anti-ship versions, the Agni series is really versatile and can be adapted for mini-sat launches, ASAT weapons or Anti-ship roles, only problem is instead of leaving to extrapolation we must demonstrate these things

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 30 Mar 2010 10:43

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/03 ... eedfetcher

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 31 Mar 2010 08:51

India strengthens eastern sector with china
http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/ ... =HTML&GZ=T

New Delhi: India’s worstcase scenario is a two-front war. Add the insurgencies in Kashmir and North-East, and rampant naxalism in other parts, and it becomes a complex two-and-a-half front situation.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Mar 2010 09:19

Unconfirmed report: US is developing a kind of "screen" than can deflect the incoming Ballistic RV in anti-ship operation role.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 31 Mar 2010 13:56

Can gurus create a list of links like what we have on P-stan for China. Only 1-2 links on the first page for China while long list for P-stan! Time for Look East Policy for BR!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 31 Mar 2010 17:50

what are we doing to prevent chinese asbm hitting our ACs ?
except that we hear from navy that such asbm are of no danger,then why everyone is talking so much abt it?
now it seems why chinese have installed radars near andaman islands and are doing so in gwadar,srilanka,,,...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 01 Apr 2010 05:33

An arsenal called deception

India needs to be vigilant. The spectacular growth in Chinese military and economic power cannot but be a matter of grave concern to India. Both nations have several outstanding border issues that China doesn’t seem to be in any hurry to settle. It has made the audacious demand that Indian leaders should refrain from visiting parts of Arunachal Pradesh staking claim to the state. Beijing has also successfully blocked international financial institutions from extending development assistance to a sovereign part of India. These are but a few instances. Its continuing policy of arming Pakistan against India is evidence of Chinese animus against India.

However, India’s defence budgets have, on the other hand, not kept pace with its growing security imperatives. Its 2010 defence budget of Rs 147,344 crore (around $31.1 billion) represents a measly year over year growth of 3.98 per cent, barely enough to maintain the previous year’s level of expenditure after adjusting for inflation.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Apr 2010 08:04

It will be nice for China to start something so that Indian leaders can wake up. Of course after that there will be discussions, panels, etc, but at least the ball will get rolling.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Apr 2010 09:13

VinodTK wrote:An arsenal called deception

However, India’s defence budgets have, on the other hand, not kept pace with its growing security imperatives. Its 2010 defence budget of Rs 147,344 crore (around $31.1 billion) represents a measly year over year growth of 3.98 per cent, barely enough to maintain the previous year’s level of expenditure after adjusting for inflation.

FWIW

What is the point of increasing budget allocations if they were not spent? Last year's capital allocations were not completely spent. This money will be diverted after 4-5 years (don't remember exactly). One can understand the delays in MMRCA, assuming India is trying to get some strategic value out of it (that is a big assumption here).

Atleast India could have spent a reasonable amount of money in improving military infrastructure in border areas while it waits for the privatization of armament production lines such as Pinaka, Akash, Radar systems, etc.,

We need to improve our project execution efficiencies. Enemy will want to act when we are least prepared not when we complete our modernization.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 01 Apr 2010 09:15

NRao wrote:It will be nice for China to start something so that Indian leaders can wake up. Of course after that there will be discussions, panels, etc, but at least the ball will get rolling.

The Audacity of Hope...

I kid, I kid...

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Apr 2010 13:41

Security concerns force IMD to switch from Chinese radars

Security concerns over advanced weather instruments imported from China are forcing the India Meteorological Department (IMD) to alter its Rs900 crore modernization schedule, two of its officials said.

The department had bought 12 Doppler weather radars in May from Beijing Metstar Radar Co. Ltd, or Metstar—a 49:51 venture of China National Huayun Technology Development Corp., a wholly owned subsidiary of the China Meteorological Administration, and the US-based defence contractor Lockheed Martin Corp.

At least two of these were to be installed by October, when the Commonwealth Games are to be held in New Delhi.

Now, following security worries over the Chinese instruments, IMD plans to replace some of those with radars from Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL), said Shailesh Naik, secretary, ministry of earth sciences, which governs IMD. BEL is India’s largest listed public sector defence firm.

Last year, the Indian Navy had said no to a Metstar radar that was to be installed off a naval base in Mumbai.

This radar will be replaced by a BEL product that, incidentally, IMD had rejected when it had called for bids in 2008.

“Two of these BEL radars will be (installed in) Mumbai and Goa,” said Naik.

A third radar, to be installed near the Indira Gandhi International Airport in New Delhi, is awaiting security clearances and would be delayed until next year, said the two IMD officials mentioned earlier, asking not to be identified

Naik said all the radars would be installed in time. “There were some delays, but these shall definitely be in place before the (Commonwealth) Games.”

IMD is also buying 550 automatic weather stations and 1,350 automatic rain gauge stations from various vendors as it shifts to a numerical weather prediction model, used globally to give more precise forecasts. India currently uses statistical techniques for monsoon forecasts.

Metstar had outbid BEL—which develops weather radars based on proprietary technology of the Indian Space Research Organisation—and Germany’s Selex Gematronik GmbH for the IMD contract to install radars in 12 cities, including Mumbai and New Delhi, and key ports.

The radars, to be supplied, installed and commissioned by Metstar, cost about $17.8 million (around Rs80 crore) each.

BEL radars, say experts, had not been selected earlier as their software needed improvements. IMD had planned to consider BEL radars for its second stage of modernization, in which 33 radars are to be installed across India.

“The BEL radars needed improvement in their software, and that’s why it hadn’t made the cut early on,” said P.S. Goel, former secretary of the ministry of earth sciences. “But I think security reasons hindering the radars’ delay is unjustified. They don’t pose a threat at all.”

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Apr 2010 13:58

So why didnt they just let them rectify/upgrade the SW and buy it from BEL?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Apr 2010 17:55

Boundary issue not to affect growing India-China ties: NSA

National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon Thursday said India and China have found a way to manage their differences over "the most complicated and difficult" boundary dispute and have decided not to allow it to stand in the way of expanding ties in other areas.

"The two countries have found a modus vivendi to deal with the boundary issue and to manage their different approaches to issues where their peripheries overlap," Menon said at a seminar on India-China relations organised by Indian Council for World Affairs.

Menon underlined the need to "evolve a detailed framework for the resolution of the boundary dispute in a manner that is feasible to both leaderships."

Alluding to then prime minister Rajiv Gandhi's visit to Beijing in 1988, Menon said Indian and Chinese leaders had decided that the difficult and complicated boundary question would be addressed, but would not stand in the way of the expansion of relations in other areas.

Menon's comments come days before external affairs minister S M Krishna goes to Beijing when the two sides are likely to discuss dates for the 14th round of boundary negotiations between their special representatives.

Menon has taken over from his predecessor M K Naryanan as India's Special Representative on the boundary issue.

Admitting that there are differences on many issues, Menon stressed upon the need for both sides to build on congruences while managing contradictions. "Differences in worldview, structure, systems and foreign policy making have not prevented and will not prevent an expanding engagement between India and China," he said.

Indian and Chinese leaders Thursday exchanged greetings on the 60th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic ties and expressed their optimism about the future development of the relationship for the sake of regional and global peace.

Hope the tone remains the same after SM Krishna's visit..

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Apr 2010 17:56

krishnan wrote:So why didnt they just let them rectify/upgrade the SW and buy it from BEL?

I thought so as well.. guess they've become weary of anything tagged 'made in china'..

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 02 Apr 2010 03:58

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love China’s Carrier Killing Missile

A big part of the U.S. military — that would be the Navy — is working itself into knots over the “anti-access” challenge, potential enemies possessing large arsenals of long-range, precision guided missiles, stealthy submarines and over-the-horizon radars. In fact, the Navy, with the Air Force in tow, is thinking through a new warfighting doctrine known as AirSea Battle intended to come up with ways to counter enemy missile magazines and allow ships freedom of access in offshore waters (we wrote about it a few weeks back).

The biggest, baddest threat in the anti-access arena is China’s DF-21 anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM), ominously known as the “carrier killer.” The DF-21 is not fully operational. That China has been working on such a missile for some time is well known. In testimony before (.pdf) the House Armed Services Committee last week, the head of Pacific Command, Adm. Robert Willard, said China is “testing” the weapon. A soft kill terminal guidance warhead is thought to be in the works that would detonate above a carrier and riddle its deck with thousands of steel flechettes.

Defense Tech friend Craig Hooper has a new piece out in the April issue of the Naval Institute’s Proceedings that says hyping China’s ASBM threat has done little but upset America’s regional allies and legitimized an unproven weapon. “This self inflicted blow to U.S. stature in the region requires an adroit diplomatic response.”

First off, the defense community must stop assuming American flattops are the only or even primary target of such weapons. Chinese ASBMs pose a far greater threat to regional allies, such as Japan, South Korea and Australia, each of which is developing smaller “pocket-carriers,” that can operate helicopters and STOVL aircraft. “Modern Asian navies are becoming important co-guarantors of stability in the Pacific Basin… Asia’s growing fleet of tiny flattops is far more vulnerable to ASBM strikes than any U.S. carrier.”

By focusing solely on the threat to the U.S. Navy’s supercarriers, the defense community forfeited an opportunity to frame ASBMs as a regional challenge and develop a regional response. He points to the Cold War example when Russia’s medium range missiles were portrayed as a European-wide threat. “A review of Cold War history might inspire American strategists to get off the fainting couch and confront China’s ASBMs directly, on almost a missile for missile basis.”

A conventionally armed Trident intercontinental ballistic missile, along with submarine launched intermediate range ballistic missiles, would be just the ticket to hold Chinese missiles at risk and extend an umbrella over regional allies. These missiles, along with the Air Force’s new long range strike initiative, fall under the prompt global strike (PGS) concept, one Congress has been reluctant to fund because of worries over misinterpretation of a conventionally armed ballistic missile launch.

The “confirmed entry” of Chinese ASBMs into the Pacific could pressure Congress to fully fund a range of PGS efforts. Reaching back again to Cold War history, Hooper says as the deployment of the Pershing II in Europe changed Soviet behavior on missile basing, “a comparable U.S. step in the Pacific might set the stage for an Asia-focused dialogue on limiting ballistic missiles.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Apr 2010 04:20

China buys air defense systems from Russia

Russia has delivered 15 batteries of S-300 anti-aircraft missiles to China, Interfax news agency reported on Friday, under a contract analysts said could be worth as much as $2.25 billion.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 Apr 2010 07:48

China’s historic return to the gulf

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/ ... o_the_gulf

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 03 Apr 2010 12:00

You know, I saw that interview of the retired general, and found one or two oft repeated misconceptions in it.

For one, there is this tendency to give the best case scenario for chinese military power as far as the numbers are concerned and the very opposite for Indian equipment holdings.

I'll just stick to one metric. In the interview the general talks about the chinese having 2500 3rd and 4th generation fighters in the future ( 2020?) whereas we would have just 500. Now this is a gross exaggeration. They do not have that number even today ( more like 1700-1900), and we still have 650-750 fighters.
Chinese serviceability numbers are probably lower than ours and they too will have to retire a lot of their F-7s( Mig 21s) and older J-8s by 2020. They also have not exercised with any real modern airforces.

In all likelihood they will probably opt for a force of 1200-1400 fighters , half of which will be flankers and the rest made up of J-10s and J-8 upgrades and some late model J-7s. In fact , the flanker figure is a bit dubious, as heavy fighters of this class are rather expensive to operate and this was also one of the reasons why even the USAF kept pushing down the F-22 figure which was of course replacing the F-15. During the cold war only a superpower America could afford a fleet of 600-700 F-15 class aircraft. It is highly unlikely that the CAF ( formerly PLAAF

) will be able to do the same without diverting money that could be spent elsewhere.

On the other hand , we'll have atleast 270 flankers, 110-120 ( Mig -29s and Mirage 2000s), 100 MRCA, 120 LCA , 120 Mig-21s and 150-200 Jags and Mig 27s by 2020 with hopefully PAK-FA units coming in to counter the purported fifth generation Chinese fighter that they will try to induct by then..

So a total of 870-930 IAF units will face down 1200-1400 CAF units in 2020. Now obviously the last statement is misleading given the IAF's commitments vis a vis Pakistan and the CAF's commitments vis a vis the ROCAF/VPAF/JASDF . Moreover despite all the runway lengthening and new bases, the CAF will remain constrained in Tibet. There is no point denying it. it is the possible use of a myanmarese air corridor with Flankers( refuelled) that is a bigger source of worry. Then there is also EW/ tactics/ training/ NCW etc.

If we keep growing at 8-10 per cent a year, the chinese threat is manageable since we will have more than enough money to build the basic minimum required to build deterrence.

See this is something else that people need to realize when they make comparisons. Given the nature of warfare there is no need to assume that if x can spend less relative to y, the former necessarily has no chance.

I disagree with this. I instead rely on the notion of a threshold capability- i.e the point at which an economy relative to its rivals can generate enough security complexes to deter aggression- India has that today. Naturally this keeps changing as the others grow, so we need to keep growing as well.

Also, it would do well to remember, that when the cold war was on, The Soviets were more than a little concerned about west germany's military capability. since even though it was much smaller, it was still quite capable due to technology and human resources. Add to that tactical nuclear support from NATO and it was seen as a formidable adversary and deterrence held.

finally, as a retired air chief said in a recent interview - the Indian mind will always be superior to its chinese counterpart.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Apr 2010 12:27

I'll just stick to one metric. In the interview the general talks about the chinese having 2500 3rd and 4th generation fighters in the future ( 2020?) whereas we would have just 500. Now this is a gross exaggeration. They do not have that number even today ( more like 1700-1900), and we still have 650-750 fighters...............

even that is a HIGHLY inflated figure.

the real numbers look like this :
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 81#p772481
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=141

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 03 Apr 2010 12:47

yeah thanks for that.

somewhere there I have assumed even boneyard relics just to make a point. Also I am taking recourse to a report which quoted the ACM as saying that we have one-third the number of aircraft China has.The better ball park figure would be 1100-1300.

In any case this PRC alarmism is not in character.

Dear countrymen, we aren't holding a fricking pop gun . so please stop getting too paranoid. ( despite all the only paranoid survive blahh de blah de blah kind of philosophy- frankly speaking it reminds me of the ICE director character - "life is a race" tez nahin dauroge to tumhe koi kucchal ke chala jayeega bullshit. )

even in the game of nations- pursue excellence - be cool and steadily build up capabilities and despite all the Commie marching in front of painted planes- I think the IAF has the edge as far as becoming "Kaabil" ( Capable) is concerned.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 03 Apr 2010 14:37

It is very difficult to count on chinese, specially when their defence budget ranges between 70-150 bn ,(almost by 100%), that is what pentagon knows ..
It is really difficult to assign what they do with the extra money
maybe they are making N no of aircrafts per year without engines , no one could guess correctly