China Military Watch

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 02 Sep 2009 04:54

AdityaM wrote: Is it to show at a later date that this area was very much under chinese control for long, especially since there is now material evidence in the form of food cans that chinese products dated XYZ year will be found in that area

Ouch.... places like San Francisco's downtown are in great danger.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 02 Sep 2009 04:58

RahulM: On a similar line, the admins could also consider the word "gora" and the way it gets used sometimes in BRF.

kit · Post by **kit** » 02 Sep 2009 17:42

China to unveil new missiles on National Day: State media

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 963587.cms

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 03 Sep 2009 16:48

1st Oct 09: The dragon will display its teeth

On Tuesday, exactly one month before its National Day Parade on 1st October, an unnamed official from China’s missile establishment briefed a group of journalists to announce that the highly anticipated military parade will provide a first-ever view of five new missiles, including a nuclear capable intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). The official confirmed that all these missiles have already entered service with the military.

Dong Feng – 41?

Most keenly anticipated, is China’s new third-generation ICBM, the Dong Feng – 41 (Dong Feng means East Wind), which has been in development for a decade but has never been publicly seen before. The DF-41 can be launched from a mobile firing platform. It is believed to be capable of carrying a nuclear warhead to within 700 metres of a target 12,000 kilometres away. Its payload consists of a single 350-400 kiloton bomb (20 times more powerful than the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki), or 3-6 MIRVs (multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles) with the explosive power of 100 kilotons each.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Sep 2009 17:43

An honest question to the maulanas and talibs of madrassa-e-BRFi....

What is that we, as in BRFites, and the strategic community "fear" the most in terms of threat from China and PLA?
Can we quantify the parameters?

Is it the relative strength of PLA in terms of weapon systems?
Is it the ability of PLA to achieve very high manpower and equipment ratios against the IA in specific sectors?
Is it the ability to mobilise large amount of troops and spring a surprise on the IA?
The 2nd Artillery Corps and relative abundance of conventional warhead equipped IRBMs?
The strength of PLA-Airforce?

I have deliberately not mentioned th "National and Political Will". Lets keep this at purely military level.
Please provided measured response to the queries above and try and quantify the numbers/parameters.

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 03 Sep 2009 18:07

AmitR wrote:1st Oct 09: The dragon will display its teeth

On Tuesday, exactly one month before its National Day Parade on 1st October, an unnamed official from China’s missile establishment briefed a group of journalists to announce that the highly anticipated military parade will provide a first-ever view of five new missiles, including a nuclear capable intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). The official confirmed that all these missiles have already entered service with the military.

Dong Feng – 41?

Most keenly anticipated, is China’s new third-generation ICBM, the Dong Feng – 41 (Dong Feng means East Wind), which has been in development for a decade but has never been publicly seen before. The DF-41 can be launched from a mobile firing platform. It is believed to be capable of carrying a nuclear warhead to within 700 metres of a target 12,000 kilometres away. Its payload consists of a single 350-400 kiloton bomb (20 times more powerful than the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki), or 3-6 MIRVs (multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles) with the explosive power of 100 kilotons each.

Isn't it interesting how the Chinese boast about their missiles only after these are fully operational while we make a huge event of the first test launch of a missile, even if it is only a technology demonstrator. I think we should follow the Chinese model and unveil our missiles to the media only after they are fully operational. Or atleast claim that they are fully operational when we unveil them.

Question 1- When/How does China test its ICBMs without letting the other countries get an inkling. I saw a TV report in the US where they made a big hue and cry (the reporter) about India testing a missile even after reporting that India had informed the US well in advance of the impending test.

Question 2: If we scale up the Agni (i.e. make it carry more fuel), can the IRBM become an ICBM? Or are we trying to develop some path-breaking new technology to increase the range while keeping the size similar?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Sep 2009 18:16

@ rohit, if I have to choose one capability it will be the stand-off strike potential of PLA, in terms of 2nd Artillery, cruise missiles, long range MBRLS and of course the PLAAF.

those can cripple much of our critical assets and infrastructure, both civil and military without setting a foot in our territory.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 04 Sep 2009 03:50

76 Megatons In The Big Parade

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Sep 2009 08:09

Ref : http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... 441f51ef5d

Moreover, opaqueness - deliberately concealing its capabilities - is Chinese policy. "With no-first-use and a small arsenal, China depends on opaqueness to keep its deterrent credible, to induce uncertainty in an enemy's cost-benefit calculations."

Either India is taking it further or everything is an open secret.One would think it is the latter judging by the bellicosity and confidence of a far smaller PK.India is more looking like a ballooned up elephant by the day.

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Sep 2009 08:44

One need not have much imagination to see how the 'strategic' scenario vs China / PK is going to be played out in the next 3- 5 years., especially if India is going in big time for American weapons , China can easily blackmail them economically to stay put by way of spares and support.Their dreams of carving up India between them does have logic and both of them seem determined at it, with US being an 'unwilling' partner.India does not have any other choice other than to to go for fully MIRV ed fusion weapons and that too in large numbers not just for minimum deterrence but be able to deliver total annihilation to both potential adversaries., unless that happens the entire future of the country is going to be at stake.And India has to test its nukes ! A nice megaton explosion at the time of visit of some Chinese dignitary would be a good start for a subtle message.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2009 09:31

From Orbat.com:

So - watching the old blood pressure - Editor will have to lightly skip over the developments in the 1990s that led to India unilaterally demilitarizing the Sino-Indian border. The Indians said they were demilitarizing as part of agreements with China, but the reality is, China conceded nothing and India conceded everything.

Instead of peace, India got more than 10 years of escalating confrontation with a China that concluded - correctly - that if the Indians could be intimidated into demilitarizing without a shot being fired, they weren't going to react China's non-stop provocations - which include brazenly building roads through Indian border territory.

We mentioned a while ago that in the North West India has reactivated three airfields it had abandoned during the 1962 war. This is a tiny, tiny step in the right direction. India also made long-term plans to induct another infantry division into Ladakh. Currently there are two, but one is for the Pakistan border. It also made long-term plans to restore its defenses in Himachal Pradesh. The border there once had an entire division assigned; now a days it is a single scout battalion and a heavy mortar battery.

We'd also mentioned India would activate a new division in the Northeast.

Well, New York Times tells us it will be two divisions - quoting an ex-Army Chief of Staff who is governor of Arunachal state. (Indian governors are representatives of the Central Government to the states - they do not govern anything.)

The ex-army Chief, who presumably knows of what he speaks, says the process will take several years.

At this point Editor's blood-pressure begins to rise, dangerously. He would like to remind the Indian Army that it has the capability of raising 12 divisions a year, with each division taking two years to become fully operational.

While Editor is waiting for more information, he can reasonably say this idea of taking several years is not that of the Eau-De-Stoopid Brigade but of the Army itself. India is hardly short of defense money: it barely spends 2% of GDP on defense and the MOD routinely returns billions of dollars a year to the Exchequer because the civil/politicos can never get their weapon-purchase act together. A mountain division requires just a few hundred million dollars of equipment, almost all of which is domestically produced. There is no reason at all why India cannot raise the minimum four divisions it needs to restore the border balance with China within two years.

One reason the Army may be talking of years and not two years is because it wants the latest equipment available on the global market, and it wants hundreds of new helicopters. Given that India has not - for example - been able to procure more than 400 155mm howitzers over the last 25 years as opposed to then requirement of 1600, it is completely unrealistic to wait for the flood-gates of new equipment to open. (The new requirement is 4000 155mm guns/howitzers. India has the money. It does not have the will power to spend the money.)

It is imperative to get the four divisions raised and deployed ASAP, using whatever equipment is available indigenously. When it comes to training, the Indian Army is the most meticulous in the world (Sorry US Army, you are very good at most things, but even you don't train soldiers as thoroughly as the Indians do). On top of the two years, the Army needs three more to ensure a high level of battle efficacy for the divisions. The theatre is brutally difficult in geographic terms and India's communications infrastructure is worse than pathetic. No need to mention the great strides the Chinese are making on their side of the border when it comes to railroads, roads, and airfields. That is why India must not waste any more time.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 05 Sep 2009 11:43

Kar le Gal

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2009 14:53

once the PRC stockpiles enough of supplies south of Lhasa as they will do before anything starts, breaking those railway lines (which IAF will do) is kind of moot for a short 2-3 week border war.

Is it the relative strength of PLA in terms of weapon systems?

>> they seem to have a lot of trailing edge but useful artillery & mlrs compared to
>> our trickle mode induction and artillery acquisition circus.

Is it the ability of PLA to achieve very high manpower and equipment ratios against the IA in specific sectors?

>> definitely. their terrain and roads looks better + railway lines + huge long
>> runways they are putting up in places (Shalav had posted some googearth
>> imagery once I think). having 16000ft runways in tibet permits their a.c to
>> take off on full fuel and weapons which negates our altitude advantage in
>> air ops.

Is it the ability to mobilise large amount of troops and spring a surprise on the IA?

>> yes. and our mobilization is subject to key choke points in major rivers like
>> ganga and brahmaputra. they can build bailey bridges across most of the
>> tsangpo given its small stature up in tibet. our railway lines and junctions
>> are weak to say the least in NE. many sections are still MG, projects take
>> years more than scheduled. we simply dont have luxury of mobilizing quickly
>> from the interior - everything has to be fwd deployed - which I believe the
>> NYT article alludes to in the Se La - bomdilla - tawang area.

The 2nd Artillery Corps and relative abundance of conventional warhead equipped IRBMs?

>> can be used to strike key airbases. GLCMs can also be lobbed in.

The strength of PLA-Airforce?

>> 300 flankers even if armed with trailing edge avionics and weapons is not to
>> be sniffed at. they far outloiter anything in our den except the mki.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2009 14:56

btw PRC has started license manufacture of Mi17V with a more powerful engine than the 80 Mi17V we are buying outright after around 5 years of running around the mulberry bush.

and our proposed 10-t heli tender isnt even in RFP yet - no doubt anyone who can build a paper airplane from around the world will be invited to bid in a free n fair format. Panda would just move in and order 200 NH or eurocopter no questions asked on a cash and carry basis.

we will have enough time to ruminate after getting a bloody nose.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Sep 2009 07:18

What is the purpose of China's upcoming mission to Phobos in partnership with Russia?

Is it just an arbitrary science mission? Or do they see the Martian moons as the best means of establishing a toehold on Mars?

After all, hardly any energy at all is required to land or take off from Phobos.

Does China have any plans to go to Mars? Or will India beat them to the planet?

EDIT: Correction - I see that China is piggybacking their own Mars orbiter on the Russian mission to Phobos.

http://www.aerospaceguide.net/mars/phobos_grunt.html

http://21stcenturywaves.com/blog/2008/1 ... d-to-mars/

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 06 Sep 2009 09:12

On a lighter note,

Chinese female fighter pilots get new suits

They kind of look like the US Marine fighter pilots with their new suits on.

VijayKumarSinha · Post by **VijayKumarSinha** » 06 Sep 2009 09:50

A poll on cctv website, "How soon do you think India will accomplish its Mars mission?"

The voting is accessible through this link: http://english.cctv.com/01/index.shtml
Apparently, it is possible to choose more than 1 option LOL

Maybe they havn't discovered the virtue of radio buttons in polling or its just another cultural misunderstanding on my part.

So, Please do exercise your democratic right to vote!!!

You know, they should also do a poll on when their langotia yaar aka Pak is going to Mars.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 06 Sep 2009 11:49

China and India dispute enclave on edge of Tibet so goes the headlines in the New York Times.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 06 Sep 2009 13:19

Chinese female fighter pilots get new suits

Why did they have to repeat the same line "The first female pilots to fly Chinese fighter jets were on Sunday given a special anti-G flight suit that has taken 15 months to develop." in every slide.....

A poll on cctv website, "How soon do you think India will accomplish its Mars mission?"

Majority of the people have voted for NEVER.....Doesn't matter, I would really love to see their response after 2015....The next decade is going to be India's decade.....

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 06 Sep 2009 22:36

VijayKumarSinha wrote:A poll on cctv website, "How soon do you think India will accomplish its Mars mission?"

The voting is accessible through this link: http://english.cctv.com/01/index.shtml
Apparently, it is possible to choose more than 1 option LOL
Maybe they havn't discovered the virtue of radio buttons in polling or its just another cultural misunderstanding on my part.

So, Please do exercise your democratic right to vote!!!

You know, they should also do a poll on when their langotia yaar aka Pak is going to Mars.

This site is not safe. My antivirus scanner raises an alarm for every page on this site. Admins please edit the post to insert a warning.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 07 Sep 2009 07:20

China draws Red border in Ladakh

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 07 Sep 2009 08:57

The secretive DH-10 LACM

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 07 Sep 2009 09:30

Why is China suddenly very belligerent?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 07 Sep 2009 10:19

Incursions into India never happened: China

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 07 Sep 2009 11:08

Chinks are scared..since the arihant came out. They know with Agni-3sl they are doomed once and for all.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 07 Sep 2009 11:14

vavinash wrote:Chinks are scared..since the arihant came out. They know with Agni-3sl they are doomed once and for all.

Where is the Agni-3SL and what does it carry?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 07 Sep 2009 11:35

Thats the point!! Once A-3Sl comes out they cannot do anything.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 07 Sep 2009 11:48

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/ag ... -this.html

According to this Agni 3 is set for final developmental phase testing in October 2009 , any clue as to what the potential production rate might be.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Sep 2009 18:52

Yes,China is right when it says that the incursions "never happened",
because according to it,the territory belongs to China>simple explanation for the PRC's doublespeak.It just says that the border is in dispute and then tries to skinch its way into Indian territory.Robert gates was on telly,neing interviewed by Zarkaria.He said that ttthe US could easily afford the Afghan/Iraq situs because the US was spending less than 4% of its GDP on defence and it was equal to the entire global defence put together! During WW2 it was higher,Korean War 9%,and during the Vietnam war 7%.Given these figures, and the challenges upon us from both Pak and China simultaneously,India must raise its defence spending to at least 3% annually,for the monent even raising it to 4% to meet seriously delayed decisons on artillery,subs,strategic deterrent,etc.In addition,we must raise several divisions of mountain forces,either in the Army,or a special border force equipped with light-weight artillery,armour and multi-role helos,for the Himalayas.Though Kargil took place 10 years ago,the disgraceful lack of artillery modernisation must be immediately set right.China is sensing that the moment is ripe as India will take a few years to upgrade and modernise,while it is in a superior position on our common border.It appears that it wants a military "success" to seal its anniversary.

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 07 Sep 2009 19:23

Patrick Cusack wrote:Why is China suddenly very belligerent?

The reason they are is because of the weak leaders we have elected to govern us,loot us and try to appease every damn country in the world (count Burma & Bangladesh)to put accross the debuncked idea of Panchsheel,whereas the Chinese politico/military doctrine rises from the notion of Power sources from the barell of Gun,whose leaders does not hesitate to to attack any country be it the mighty US or the erstwhile USSR to accomplish strategic objectives,their doctrine has been developed to withstand or overwhelm a far more competetive neigbourhood(S.Korea,US,Japan,Vietnam etc) than us(Pakiland,BD,Lanka etc)So naturally China does not count India a threat factor whereas the opposite is not true.

Siddhartha · Post by **Siddhartha** » 07 Sep 2009 23:27

Ok your Excellency...deleted my post..I m just a mere Trainee so please pardon me..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Sep 2009 23:46

deleted.

p.s. people who don't have the patience or the ability to understand a thread's scope from the thread title and proceed to post OT material, should not make smarty comments.
just an observation.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Sep 2009 01:24

MEA, Army react differently over Chinese incursions

Chinese army enters Ladakh

Indians, get out: Chinese armymen

Krishna plays down report on Chinese incursions

China training, arming militants against India

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 08 Sep 2009 01:37

Deleted, this is not the thread for political prophecies.

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 08 Sep 2009 09:50

Oh Boy!!

Chinese are up to something big!!!

I feel they are helping Pakistan to divert India's attention from Pakistan. India, get ready for a rough ride in the 21st century!!! Chinese are circling India!!! India, fight or forget ur north east India!!

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 08 Sep 2009 10:35

From one of above news reports

"The arrested Manipuri militant has told interrogators that the PLA and other Manipuri groups are being armed and trained by Chinese experts in Myanmar. This is apparently in preparation for a major showdown with Indian security forces next year."

Prepare for Kargil II just that it is going to be worse.

Feel like whipping the chinese as*. I even hate the 'chinese food' written at so many outlets.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 08 Sep 2009 11:38

Philip wrote:Yes,China is right when it says that the incursions "never happened",
because according to it,the territory belongs to China>simple explanation for the PRC's doublespeak.It just says that the border is in dispute and then tries to skinch its way into Indian territory...Though Kargil took place 10 years ago,the disgraceful lack of artillery modernisation must be immediately set right.China is sensing that the moment is ripe as India will take a few years to upgrade and modernise,while it is in a superior position on our common border.It appears that it wants a military "success" to seal its anniversary.

Oh please, this whole story is a media frenzy created by people like Arnab Goswami to increase TRPs. Jingoism sells, as Fox News has known for years and Times Now discovered in late November last year.

There are two separate elements here. One is that as anyone who bothers to ask someone who actually serves or has served in the Indo-China border, these violations are par for the course on both sides and serve to underline territorial claims in a disputed area. It is only armchair journalists and web experts who are outraged at this alleged "escalation".

The second concrete issue is that India has indeed been losing its strategic edge along the border. This is now being rectified. You can argue it is too little and/or too late, but let's not fall into the media hysteria=ratings trap.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2009 11:41

and does one expect NDTV or CNN to report anything beyond what their political contacts tell them ?

atleast someone is saying what is going on, instead of passing out the "all is well" kool aid.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 08 Sep 2009 11:41

Why India is Clueless about China

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 08 Sep 2009 12:08

Since it is connected with China, am putng it in here.

News in todays Gulf News edition.

UAE air force plane detained in India
Staff Report
Published: September 07, 2009, 23:54

Dubai: The UAE Foreign Ministry said on Monday night that it is in constant contact with the Indian government to follow-up on the developments after an Emirati military plane was detained at Kolkata airport in eastern India.

According to Indian media reports, the aircraft, which was flying to Hanyang, part of the city of Wuhan in China's Hubei province from Abu Dhabi, landed in Kolkata for refuelling on Sunday and was found to carry arms and ammunition.

Indian customs officials found the "undeclared" cargo during a customary check of the aircraft, AP quoted Wing Cmdr. Mahesh Upasani, an Indian air force spokesman as saying.

The 10-member crew were being questioned about why they failed to declare the plane's cargo, he said.

He said he did not know the type of weapons and the quantity on board as the matter was being investigated by customs authorities.

"We are finding out whether this lapse was because of a communication gap or otherwise," Upasani said.

In a statement issued to WAM, Juma Al Junaibi, the Foreign Ministry's Director General, reiterating UAE’s respect to the sovereignty of India, stressed the deep-rooted relations between the two countries. The issue is expected to be resolved soon "diplomatically",an Indian Air Force official told an Indian TV channel.