China Military Watch

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8055
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Indranil » 05 Jan 2011 12:29

My personal belief is that the truth lies somewhere in between.

The J-20 is not a pushover, but it is certainly not there yet. But the prototype is strong first step ahead. The time from drawing board to prototyping has been quite short.

Similarly the AShBM is definitely an irritant if not a threat. It will always be there at the back of the naval minds. A 10 percent probability of hit is considerable for strategic targets like an AC.

The amount of funds that they are pouring in humongous. And that will bear fruit sooner or later.

But the Chinese are really taking on world-powers by the horns. Who has the most number of satellites and ACs? Is it a smart choice to do so, so early? I hope they are not being overconfident. Only time will tell :).

VibhavS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 64
Joined: 04 Jan 2011 16:56
Location: Classified

Re: China Military Watch

Postby VibhavS » 05 Jan 2011 12:51

Gentlemen,

I have reading all ur posts on BR for a while now and generally enjoy the discussions going on for the sheer quality and knowledge that is brought forth in arguing a point. Although the responses to Wen took some of that flavour away. I know he was insulting and pompous, but then I guess he was here just to prove a point that we have no monopoly on idiots, they sprout all around the world.
In my humble opinion the US Mil makes big fuss in public about Chinese Weapons to get more money out of Congress. You really cant ask for money if you dont have a threat to justify the spending. The Russians are no longer that threat, the Indians are the new best friends so the only people left are the chinese.
Please let them feel very very happy about that, I guess somebody has to be a villan for someone to be a hero?

Rgds,
Vibhav

wrdos
BRFite
Posts: 312
Joined: 26 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: China Military Watch

Postby wrdos » 05 Jan 2011 13:12

Dear Sir, even America imports quite a few important military technologies from the Europe. :D

I don't think China will import military aircrafts by a significant number in the future. We may import some components that Chinese are still backward, but not the whole aircraft anymore.

Anyway, compared with India, China spends maybe 3 or 5 times more on its defense, but Chinese import of foreign weapons was less than 1/3 of Indian imports during the past 3 or 5 years.

and keeps decreasing.

P Chitkara wrote:If the chinese tech is all it is made out to be, why do they want the EU to lift the arms export ban? Why are they again going back to Russia for aircraft and engines?

Just as Soviets had the iron curtain, the CCP also has the same. We won’t know about any failures unless they spill into public domain - like the long march accident. There too, a design deficiency was found; some US co. (LM?) identified it and gave the solution.

Also, if the chinese tech was all that super duper why would the pukes look for better radar and avionics for jf17?

Not that we are not facing problems but, we are at least transparent by virtue of being a democracy. The CCP OTOH shows what it wants others to see.

Various defense agencies in US have finally got something they can blow out of proportion and get increased funding and that something is china. This has been a pretty standard practice by them all these decades.

DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 885
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 05 Jan 2011 13:39

Kartik wrote:At last a reputed website comes out and talks about the J-20- and their conclusion is the same as mine and others- that its a disappointing design and quite clearly takes a lot of influence from the MiG 1.42 program.

And so much for the WS-10. Apparently it requires an OVERHAUL (not even preventive maintenance checks!) every 20 hours !

Flightglobal link


Any website that still says the plane is F-111 sized is not reputable. I can understand it in the beginning, but it's now beyond doubt that it's false.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2011 13:44

wen wrote:And this fact (ASAT using an DF-21 varation, etc) is confirmed by the Americans, not the Chinese, and Americans change their defence plan accordingly, so thats not some typical internet hoax/joke like some of our neighbours's mindless boasts, you get my point, do you?


Thai is hilarious sir! :rotfl: You don't believe the Chinese and you want me to believe you because the Americans said something? Take a break sir. We are on the same side. You no believe the Chinese. I no believe the Chinese. Our only disagreement is that you believe the Americans. I don't.


wen wrote:So as you can see, most human beings are practical.

In another possible scenario, if your ballastic missile launch tests failed 50% or more of the time, then don't expect anybody will take your mindless boasting about the capability of your missiles seriously, get the basics done right before boasting.


Words of wisdom sir. Words of wisdom. Note that if my male organ is small - it does not make yours big. All I am saying is that yours is small like mine. Why not be practical like all humans and learn to cope rather than boast. After all India and China know how to produce babies, if nothing else.
Last edited by shiv on 05 Jan 2011 13:57, edited 2 times in total.

DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 885
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 05 Jan 2011 13:47

So basically, over the last few days the J-20 had another high speed taxi, this time lifting its nose much higher than before. They also practiced emergency procedures in case anything goes wrong, a recording/observation tower has been set up, and the runway has been repainted. It seems likely that the first flight will come within days.

Here are a couple of new CG's, closer than those posted before. I still think they're wrong, because it seems to me that the canards shouldn't be swept back.

Image
Image

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2011 14:53

DavidD wrote:Image


I can't find too much wrong with this image - it fits in with my assessments of photos so far.

What I find interesting is that the Chinese authorities are breaking new ground in the way information is being released. It is officially being released unofficially. What many Chinese lurkers on here who get mad at my taunts don't understand is how the Chinese government and the Chinese state is viewed by others. China is viewed with suspicion as a secretive state whose government chooses repression and lies over consensus and openness. Why they are viewed that way is beside the point, but I think that Chinese authorities are beginning to realise that there are diminishing returns from being closed and by trying to put a cloak of mystery on everything from China. It arouses curiosity and intrigue initially and ROTFL later. Openness eventually gets more dividends. Those who are able to see the J-20 for what it is rather than what some Chinese might want others to believe that it is are more likely to be more respectful of China.

PrasadZ
BRFite
Posts: 122
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 08:42

Re: China Military Watch

Postby PrasadZ » 05 Jan 2011 16:32

wrdos wrote:Anyway, compared with India, China spends maybe 3 or 5 times more on its defense, but Chinese import of foreign weapons was less than 1/3 of Indian imports during the past 3 or 5 years.


Typical bullshit :roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry#World.27s_largest_arms_importers
India is importing in 2009 less than China's imports in 2000 ..
Its a reactive state, its getting wary about the neighborhood, its buying a lot of weapons today.
About the abilities of the aircraft, I have to admit am hugely enjoying the posts .. shiv pratyush singha rohit disha have made my day many days in a row now ..

DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 885
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 05 Jan 2011 16:34

shiv wrote:
I can't find too much wrong with this image - it fits in with my assessments of photos so far.

What I find interesting is that the Chinese authorities are breaking new ground in the way information is being released. It is officially being released unofficially. What many Chinese lurkers on here who get mad at my taunts don't understand is how the Chinese government and the Chinese state is viewed by others. China is viewed with suspicion as a secretive state whose government chooses repression and lies over consensus and openness. Why they are viewed that way is beside the point, but I think that Chinese authorities are beginning to realise that there are diminishing returns from being closed and by trying to put a cloak of mystery on everything from China. It arouses curiosity and intrigue initially and ROTFL later. Openness eventually gets more dividends. Those who are able to see the J-20 for what it is rather than what some Chinese might want others to believe that it is are more likely to be more respectful of China.



Right, I guess I forgot to mention that I do think it's an excellent CG, very detailed and proportional to the pics we've seen. The canards are the only part I have a problem with. Also, I must say, shiv you're pretty good at mixing in some shots at the CCP :lol:

Anyhow, here's a cell phone video of the J-20 high speed taxiing.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/VDrpLi8EER0/

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7719
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: China Military Watch

Postby rohitvats » 05 Jan 2011 17:54

^^^DavidD, thank you for those CG images.

They basically confirm the theory that this bird is going to fulfill two roles: (a) bomb truck - with the penalty imposed on overall payload carried due to requirement of storing the payload inside (b) a high altitude BVR truck on the lines of Mig-25/31 to ward away the US interdiction force. However, what level of thrust the engines can provide to meet the gold standards of Foxhound/Foxbat remains to be seen.

Also, in case of (a), PLAAF will need the right kind of weapons (SLAM/LGBs of various types) to optimize the storage space and acheive max bang for the buck.

No way is this bird going to enter into aerial tango with anything or anyone.....an F-22 or PAK-FA or Su-30XX will eat this bird and spit it out before anyone even notices.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2011 18:21

for (b) thats why I was claiming a modernized foxhound engine D30 is the way to go - its a low bypass turbojet suitable for high alt and high speed ...if a pair can power the gigantic foxhound at mach2.3 sustained, it can likewise do the same for J-20 (DSI intakes and airframe materials & strength willing mashallah)

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: China Military Watch

Postby SaiK » 05 Jan 2011 18:28

This design wont even cross lahore.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jan 2011 18:29

Singha,

Was under the impression that the D 30 was the original Il 76 injun onlee.

Wiki unkil confirms it

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Dmurphy » 05 Jan 2011 18:42

Taiwan questions China's stealth capability
Taipei, Jan. 5 (CNA) The Ministry of National Defense (MND) indirectly confirmed Wednesday a lawmaker's assessment that China's research and development (R&D) capability as regards its the fifth-generation fighters is doubtful. :shock:

Shen confirmed that China has been developing its fifth-generation fighters but said the aircraft shown in the photos do not appear to be that system.

He said Taiwan's military has been gathering information on China's development of modernized weaponry but declined to go into detail.

Shen said he agreed with Lin's assessment and previous reports from Russian news agency RIA Novosti that China's R&D capability in engines, radar and composite materials for the fifth-generation fighters "has a long way to go" before any major breakthroughs can be expected.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2011 19:29

Pratyush, the foxhound uses a variant known as D30-F6 but yes the original civilian models are also there and used in both ilyushin and tupolev aircraft.http://www.avid.ru/eng/aviadvigatel/history/
the same co now makes the PS90A too. http://www.avid.ru/eng/pmz/history/

http://www.avid.ru/eng/products/military/D-30F6/ ... its a beast of a engine @ 2.4 tons weight (vs the usual 1t of fighter engines) and produces nearly 16t of wet thrust....around 38,000lb I think (multiplying by 2.4)

ofcourse the chi chi F135 engine claims to produce nearly the same thrust but weighs 1.5 tons only and probably consumes less fuel in doing so...thats the bleeding edge for now.

I am sure if China cuts a cheque of $5billion, Rus will put people to work on making a lighter and more modern version of D30F6 using physics and materials developed for the AL31 , 117S programs...perhaps the weight can be reduced to say 1.8-2t using such means.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7719
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: China Military Watch

Postby rohitvats » 05 Jan 2011 19:48

This may stretch the analogy a bit but the CGI resembles something which would result if one decided to develop a Jaguar or better, Tornado type aircraft today.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16936
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jan 2011 20:04

I'm still wondering what engine the J-20 fat b@stard uses. anything new on that ?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2011 20:06

DavidD wrote:
Anyhow, here's a cell phone video of the J-20 high speed taxiing.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/VDrpLi8EER0/


Thanks. It will fly soon - although news reports I read in the last 2 weeks suggested that there had been an end 2010 deadline which was not met. In fact I suspect that the flurry of reports in December were in anticipation of that deadline.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8055
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Indranil » 05 Jan 2011 20:12

DavidD wrote:Here are a couple of new CG's, closer than those posted before. I still think they're wrong, because it seems to me that the canards shouldn't be swept back.
Image


David I think the sweep angle on the canards is quite right. But i think the outward edges of the canard and the wing would most probably be edge aligned for stealth characteristics.

This is yet another problem the designers will face with that canard. Even in the Mig 1.44 the leading edges of the canard and the wing were edge aligned. On the J-20 they are not. This will make the frontal RCS jump quite a bit.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2011 20:14

For some reason I am reminded of a medical dictum where you find that fat people rarely complain of constipation because they eat so much they always have some shit to evacuate.

The J-20 has a lot of engine there. The engines - intakes and exhausts occupy a largish volume - even allowing for internal weapons bays. I am personally not convinced that it is 75 plus feet long and falls in the F-111 category. I am sticking my neck out and will retract and do a downhill ski if my impression is disproven.

If I am right - we have a fighter with a MiG 25 like power and probably some agility as well with all those aerodynamic surfaces. The long distance strike aircraft part may not pan out. Let's see. There's no fun unless you bet on something and either win or lose.

I must say I like the one piece canopy that they have made. That is a good job.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: China Military Watch

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2011 20:51

I just had another thought. Are the Chinese looking for supercruise in this design? Smallish wings, big engines with 6 added aerodynamic surfaces for maneuverability.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7719
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: China Military Watch

Postby rohitvats » 05 Jan 2011 20:57

^^^The BVR truck then......but then we need a very powerful radar on the scale of Zaslon, very long range BVR AAM and very-very powerful engines - but with refinements to allow for greater range and loiter time.

Which brings me to a hypothesis (I'm yet to do complete number crunching):

Does China/PLAAF have enough number of 4th Gen. Aircrafts (on the lines of Block 52 and Rafale) to take on something like India, forget USA? Let us see - what does PLAAF have in its inventory which can allow it to take strong offensive action (even of limited scale like Bekka Valley) against states like India or even limited defensive action against US Carrier force of 5-6 CBG?

The numbers from Wiki (the easiest source and not most reliable) are like these:

SU-27 (these are from Russia?) - ~55
SU-30MKK - 76
J-10 - ~200
J-11 - ~100
Total - ~350 (liberal round off)

How on god's earth can the Chinese even think of any sort of air dominance or even defensive action against an adversary like India and USA respectively? And the problem for the Chinese is simply not these numbers. Look at the development cycle and stage of modern fighter around the world. The Europeans are sitting with Eurofighter (claimed to be best thing short of F-22) and Rafale while the Americans have already reached the F-22 stage. While F-22 may/will not reach numbers akin to F-15 due to cost, if the Khan decides to come up with something on the scale of Eurofighter (relatively less expensive and for more numbers), one of companies can do so in double quick time. Also, courtsey the money in India's pocket, one of these very advanced birds will be in India's kitty in next couple of years and that too in substantial numbers. My guess is that MMRCA will reach 220-240 number.

But where are the Chinese in all this? At what level of development, in terms of electro-optronics and engines and armament, is the J-10? When will it reach F-16 Block 52 standard? And what answer does PLAAF have for the heavy fighter in heavy-medium fighter mix necessary for larger forces like PLAAF/IAF/USAF? What is the level of sophistication on SU-30MKK and what evolutionary path do they have? And what numbers are finally planned?

And what about the future? PAK-FA is a reality and will reach service in next 10years time. What will PLAAF in that class by then? I think the Chinese have missed this bus completely. They simply have no fighter in this class in enough numbers and with required sophistication to allow air dominance.

Contrary to all the hoo-ha, I think PLAAF is in real bad shape and will not come to anywhere close to real offensive machine till 2025 -that is if they get their act together for fighter in SU-30 class.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: China Military Watch

Postby SaiK » 05 Jan 2011 21:03

What is their strength on composites or high strength low weight materials?
Last edited by SaiK on 05 Jan 2011 21:11, edited 1 time in total.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2998
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Kanson » 05 Jan 2011 21:09

CG from DavidD doesn't represent the proper length of J-20 as we seen.

If it is similar to F-111, we are talking about a length of ~22 m otherwise ~20 m.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11204
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Gagan » 05 Jan 2011 23:23

More pics of the J-20 emerge. People might have seen some of these.
Image

Image

Image

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Viv S » 06 Jan 2011 02:59

rohitvats wrote:The numbers from Wiki (the easiest source and not most reliable) are like these:

SU-27 (these are from Russia?) - ~55
SU-30MKK - 76
J-10 - ~200
J-11 - ~100
Total - ~350 (liberal round off)

How on god's earth can the Chinese even think of any sort of air dominance or even defensive action against an adversary like India and USA respectively? And the problem for the Chinese is simply not these numbers. Look at the development cycle and stage of modern fighter around the world. The Europeans are sitting with Eurofighter (claimed to be best thing short of F-22) and Rafale while the Americans have already reached the F-22 stage. While F-22 may/will not reach numbers akin to F-15 due to cost, if the Khan decides to come up with something on the scale of Eurofighter (relatively less expensive and for more numbers), one of companies can do so in double quick time. Also, courtsey the money in India's pocket, one of these very advanced birds will be in India's kitty in next couple of years and that too in substantial numbers. My guess is that MMRCA will reach 220-240 number.


Well the rate at which they're producing aircraft is quite impressive. The J-10 started production in 2002, so that's about 24 aircraft produced annually. By 2015, the fleet should number about 325 with about half being the J-10B. About 200 J-11s are in service if wikipedia is to be believed. Assuming another 75 or so are added in the next five years, that's 275 J-11s. That's a total of about 700 fourth generation fighters by 2015. May be somewhat technological inferior but still a sizeable fleet that's only going to grow larger. At about 450 fourth generation fighters, the IAF is smaller but its access to western technology and higher training standards through extensive cross-training, ensure that it should be able to mount a very effective defence.

China's weakness is political. Its recent hard line stance on regional issues particularly the South China Sea has alienated most of East and South East Asia. The threat from Vietnam, Japan, US, Taiwan is more than enough to prevent China from dedicating the bulk of the PLAAF assets to Tibet. And that's without going into the diplomatic pressure from Russia, South Korea, Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia and the list goes on.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19128
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2011 03:03

Seriously, from the design point of view, this seems underwhelming and clearly helped by Russia plus copying others.

The front is a total ripoff of the Raptor. The open canopy pics even showed the same layout with white parts as on Raptor.

The planview is that of the MiG 1.42/1.44 - again implying the reports that China liberally got all sorts of Russian designers during the Soviet collapse is correct.

The all moving tail fins - seem a direct ripoff of the PAK-FA concept.

The overall design is also ungainly, unlike the compact, highly engineered Raptor, to the more aerodynamnically aesthetic PAK-FA.

The Chinese design is around building the basic functional blocks of frontal stealth, but edge alignment seems gone for a toss and with front canards & those huge tailfins, even very low RCS (to me) seems doubtful.

This is basically a compromise aircraft built keeping in mind limitations of Chinese aerospace.

Large body (because Chinese weapons are larger and they have not mastered aerodynamics to strike the balance between internal payload & compact airframe), larger volume for more ineffecient chinese systems (such as radar which is still lagging Russia) and more fuel, to take into account earlier engines which consume more fuel.

However, I still find this to be an example of Chinese practicality, though Chinese fans may not like my comments. Though their fans are comparing this to PAK-FA, Raptor etc, in reality it seems their designers are well aware of their limitations and are willing to settle for "something" versus "the best".

This is the same approach they have taken for J-10, building aircraft in blocks, and even today, we don't have clear details on how exactly that plane performs, and now they are making J-10B version.

My simple question is that if J-10A was that good they would have tried technology insertion there itself and not gone to making a new B variant. Saying that they made a bunch of the first one is not saying much because this is an AF which was struggling to field Sukhois and otherwise had MiG-21 level planes. To such a force, anything at the J-10 level is acceptable.

To my mind, the Chinese are adept at production of basic technology, their armed forces accept it (since they dont get anything better) and they then move to the next variant, using same approach. This to me is symptomatic of how much the Chinese value local production, and also politics - giving local factories and companies production orders, via state orders. It is typical of how China operates even economically, and while they can afford it, it is a fairly capital intensive, and not necessarily "best bang for the buck exercise".

Basically they still havent achieved the level west achieved in the late-80's and early-90's with aircraft like upgraded F-16, Mirage 2000 etc. An upgraded MiG-29, Mirage 2000 is likely to be superior to the first 200 J-10s & the next J-10B, fan talk apart is also an unknown quantity.

With this latest aircraft they approach the next generation of western aircraft (what India is evaluating in the MMRCA) but are still behind true 5G designs as generally accepted (Raptor, JSF, PAKFA).

However, looks apart, I would still take a Rafale or Eurofighter, as overall they'd be more sophisticated and also more capable aircraft with all systems in synch and developed to a high capability. This is a big thing most Chinese fans miss. They don't have details so automatically assume the best about their systems while downplaying west & russia. But these countries have decades of experience in systems integration and building components and systems that are not just best in class or meet functional requirements, but when together, add to a whole that is greater than sum of parts.

However, this aircraft would still pose a threat to earlier aircraft like F-16 variants, remastered MiG-29 (MiG-35) & even light contenders for MMRCA like Gripen, as even if it gets parity with these types, the Chinese predilection for building 200 of each type & India's constraint of allocating forces to both PAF & PLAAF means that we need a superior aircraft.

To me, this means IAF may end up again looking at airframe performance for MMRCA and not just systems and sensors. That puts Rafale & EF at an advantage versus other competitors.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19128
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2011 03:14

rohitvats wrote:^^^The BVR truck then......but then we need a very powerful radar on the scale of Zaslon, very long range BVR AAM and very-very powerful engines - but with refinements to allow for greater range and loiter time.
.


Look no further than the Su-30 MKI. In days to come with selective upgrades, this will continue to remain a very capable aircraft in the BVR role.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36405
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: China Military Watch

Postby SaiK » 06 Jan 2011 03:41

Sometime back watched sci/natgeo presentation of an hypothetical scenario of world without oil, and one of the author's prediction on such a case is china attacking tibet first and then other neighbors second for getting whatever they need. Besides food shortage and water problems due to low utility resources. Back to viking ages.

andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1598
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: China Military Watch

Postby andy B » 06 Jan 2011 04:12

Singha wrote:for (b) thats why I was claiming a modernized foxhound engine D30 is the way to go - its a low bypass turbojet suitable for high alt and high speed ...if a pair can power the gigantic foxhound at mach2.3 sustained, it can likewise do the same for J-20 (DSI intakes and airframe materials & strength willing mashallah)


Aiyooo GD saan D30 Solovyev is a turbofan onlee i believe the big bad Tumanskys of the 25 were the turbo jets... :mrgreen:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig-31/

[/quote]MiG-31 supersonic aircraft is equipped with two Solovyev D-30F6 turbofan shaft engines with a take-off thrust 15,500kgf each. The dry thrust of the D-30F6 is 9,500kgf for each engine. The engine provides a maximum speed of Mach 1.23 at low altitude and increases the aircraft's range. The fuel consumption of the MiG-31 is very high compared to other aircraft, principally due to its multiple roles.
[quote]

DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 885
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 06 Jan 2011 04:30

indranilroy wrote:
DavidD wrote:Here are a couple of new CG's, closer than those posted before. I still think they're wrong, because it seems to me that the canards shouldn't be swept back.
Image


David I think the sweep angle on the canards is quite right. But i think the outward edges of the canard and the wing would most probably be edge aligned for stealth characteristics.

This is yet another problem the designers will face with that canard. Even in the Mig 1.44 the leading edges of the canard and the wing were edge aligned. On the J-20 they are not. This will make the frontal RCS jump quite a bit.


Check out this pic, it definitely doesn't look swept back. I think it's very possible that it has the exact same shape as the main wings.

Image

DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 885
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 06 Jan 2011 04:30

rohitvats wrote:^^^DavidD, thank you for those CG images.

They basically confirm the theory that this bird is going to fulfill two roles: (a) bomb truck - with the penalty imposed on overall payload carried due to requirement of storing the payload inside (b) a high altitude BVR truck on the lines of Mig-25/31 to ward away the US interdiction force. However, what level of thrust the engines can provide to meet the gold standards of Foxhound/Foxbat remains to be seen.

Also, in case of (a), PLAAF will need the right kind of weapons (SLAM/LGBs of various types) to optimize the storage space and acheive max bang for the buck.

No way is this bird going to enter into aerial tango with anything or anyone.....an F-22 or PAK-FA or Su-30XX will eat this bird and spit it out before anyone even notices.


I don't think so, this plane is designed to be an air superiority fighter first and foremost. If, and that's a big if, China can put the WS-15 in there, then there's no reason why it can't tango with anyone. It has a large lifting body, good wing area(the PAK-FA has small wings too, it just has a wider body so it has a bigger wingspan. It relies much heavier on the lifting body which produces far less lift per area than wings.), and canards, so aerodynamically, it might be the best of all 3 current 5th gen fighters/prototypes. Can you give me some reason why it wouldn't?


Singha wrote:for (b) thats why I was claiming a modernized foxhound engine D30 is the way to go - its a low bypass turbojet suitable for high alt and high speed ...if a pair can power the gigantic foxhound at mach2.3 sustained, it can likewise do the same for J-20 (DSI intakes and airframe materials & strength willing mashallah)


No way, the WS-15 is closer to the WS-10 in size and definitely will be much smaller than the D30. If it ever hopes to put the WS-15 in there then there is no possible way they can accommodate an engine the size of the D30.


shiv wrote:
DavidD wrote:
Anyhow, here's a cell phone video of the J-20 high speed taxiing.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/VDrpLi8EER0/


Thanks. It will fly soon - although news reports I read in the last 2 weeks suggested that there had been an end 2010 deadline which was not met. In fact I suspect that the flurry of reports in December were in anticipation of that deadline.


No idea about such a deadline, but the rumor from the beginning was that the fighter would make its first appearance at the end of 2010.

DavidD
BRFite
Posts: 885
Joined: 23 Jun 2010 04:08

Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 06 Jan 2011 05:08

J-20 engine change?

Image

There are a few more pictures such as these:

Image
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/ ... -20-42.jpg

Maybe the 2nd prototype has different engines?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16518
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: China Military Watch

Postby NRao » 06 Jan 2011 05:18


Craig Alpert
BRFite
Posts: 1440
Joined: 09 Oct 2009 17:36
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Craig Alpert » 06 Jan 2011 05:19

DavidD wrote:
No idea about such a deadline, but the rumor from the beginning was that the fighter would make its first appearance at the end of 2010.


China plans to begin test flight of its first J-20 stealth fighter as early as this month and plans to deploy them by 2017, a development which comes just days before a visit to Beijing by US Defence Secretary Robert Gates.

Beijing appears to have completed a prototype of the stealth fighter, which Chinese experts are comparing to the US F-22 fighter, reinforcing the country's rapid military build-up, Japanese newspaper Ashai Shimbun reported quoting Chinese military sources.

The fighter will be equipped with large missiles and could reach island of Guam, a US territory in the western pacific with the aerial refuelling, the paper said.

But the Japanese daily quoting US experts said China would take 10-15 years to develop technology on a per with that of the US F-22 Raptor.

Reports had earlier quoted Deputy Head of the Chinese Air Force Gen He Weirong as saying that the nation's stealth fighter would be operational sometime between 2017-19.

So far, United States and China are among a handful of countries working on the next generation stealth fighters. India and Russia recently unveiled a new fighter as a rival to the American Raptor developed by Sukhoi.

.........

"It is still unclear how far along they are in the process. There are questions about the engine, things of that nature," Lapan said when asked about the pictures of such fighter planes appearing on various official and non-official Chinese websites.

.........

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16518
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: China Military Watch

Postby NRao » 06 Jan 2011 05:26

The J-20 is a very good start, but it should take the better part of two years to bring to fruit a proper induct-able plane.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4350
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: China Military Watch

Postby sanjaykumar » 06 Jan 2011 06:23

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6b/AvroArrow1.jpg


http://www.canmilair.com/products.asp?cat=157


1950s fuselage.

songfeihong
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 23
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 02:36

Re: China Military Watch

Postby songfeihong » 06 Jan 2011 07:01


Don
BRFite
Posts: 412
Joined: 09 Dec 2002 12:31

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Don » 06 Jan 2011 07:07

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... =yhoofront

A Chinese Stealth Challenge? .

By JEREMY PAGE

Images that appear to show Beijing's prototype stealth fighter jet during a 'taxi test' at a facility in western China.
.BEIJING—The first clear pictures of what appears to be a Chinese stealth fighter prototype have been published online, highlighting China's military buildup just days before U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates heads to Beijing to try to repair defense ties.

The photographs, published on several unofficial Chinese and foreign defense-related websites, appear to show a J-20 prototype making a high-speed taxi test—usually one of the last steps before an aircraft makes its first flight—according to experts on aviation and China's military.

The exact origin of the photographs is unclear, although they appear to have been taken by Chinese enthusiasts from the grounds of or around the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute in western China, where the J-20 is in development. A few experts have suggested that the pictured aircraft is a mock-up, rather than a functioning prototype of a stealth fighter—so-called because it is designed to evade detection by radar and infrared sensors.

But many more experts say they believe the pictures and the aircraft are authentic, giving the strongest indication yet that Beijing is making faster-than-expected progress in developing a rival to the U.S. F-22—the world's only fully operational stealth fighter.

China's defense ministry and air force couldn't be reached to comment on the latest photos. Even without official confirmation, however, the photographs are likely to bolster concerns among U.S. officials and politicians about China's military modernization, which also includes the imminent deployment of its first aircraft carrier and "carrier-killer" antiship ballistic missiles.

Such weapons systems would significantly enhance China's ability to hinder U.S. intervention in a conflict over Taiwan, and challenge U.S. naval supremacy in the Asia-Pacific region.

Gen. He Weirong, deputy head of China's Air Force, announced in 2009 that China's first stealth fighters were about to undergo test flights and would be deployed in "eight or 10 years." But there was no clear physical evidence of their existence until the latest photographs emerged.

Chinese authorities who monitor Internet traffic in the country appear not to have tried to block the J-20 pictures.

"The photos I've seen look genuine," said Gareth Jennings, aviation desk editor at Jane's Defence Weekly.

"It's pretty far down the line," he said. "The fact that its nose wheel is off the ground in one picture suggest this was a high-speed taxi test—that usually means a test flight very soon afterwards. All the talk we've heard is that this could happen some time in the next few weeks."

U.S. officials played down Chinese advances on the plane, which American intelligence agencies believe will likely be operational around 2018. "We are aware that the Chinese have recently been conducting taxi tests and there are photos of it," said Pentagon spokesman Col. David Lapan. "We know they are working on a fifth-generation fighter but progress appears to be uneven."

Col. Lapan said it appears the Chinese are still seeking engines for a fourth-generation fighter from Russia, an indication that they are "still encountering problems" with development work toward the fifth-generation aircraft, the J-20.

But the 2018 estimate suggests U.S. officials believe China's development of the fifth-generation fighter has accelerated. In 2009, Mr. Gates predicted that China wouldn't deploy a fifth-generation fighter until 2020. U.S. officials said the latest disclosures wouldn't affect any U.S. aircraft-development programs.

China has made rapid progress in developing a capability to produce advanced weapons, also including unmanned aerial vehicles, after decades of importing and reverse engineering Russian arms. The photographs throw a fresh spotlight on the sensitive issue of China's military modernization just as Washington and Beijing try to improve relations following a series of public disputes in 2010.

Defense Secretary Gates is due to begin a long-delayed visit to Beijing on Sunday—almost exactly a year after China suspended military ties in protest over U.S. arms sales to Taiwan.

China's President Hu Jintao is then due to begin a state visit to the U.S. on Jan. 19. President Barack Obama joined in preparatory talks at the White House on Tuesday between his national security adviser, Tom Donilon, and Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi. During the meeting, Mr. Obama said he was committed to building a bilateral relationship that is "cooperative in nature," the White House said.

The two countries clashed last year over issues including the value of the Chinese currency, China's territorial claims in the South China Sea and vocal U.S. support for a jailed Chinese dissident who won the Nobel Peace Prize.

The U.S. was also frustrated by China's refusal to condemn two North Korean attacks on South Korea, while Beijing was angered by a U.S. decision to respond to the second attack, the shelling of a South Korean island in November, by sending an aircraft carrier to take part in joint naval exercises with Seoul near China's coast.

The U.S. and its Asian allies have also been alarmed by China's naval maneuvers and more forceful stance on territorial issues, while China's military strategists have accused the U.S. of trying to "contain" China—most recently by sending two more aircraft carriers to the region in December.

"The U.S. wants to retain its global hegemony and also preserve its regional interests. It is not comfortable with China's military rise," Senior Col. Han Xudong, a professor at China's National Defense University, was quoted as saying in the Global Times newspaper Tuesday.

Experts who said they thought the photographs were authentic included Andrei Chang of the Canadian-based Kanwa Asian Defence Monthly, and Richard Fisher, an expert on the Chinese military at the International Strategy and Assessment Center in Washington.

Several experts said the prototype's body appeared to borrow from the F-22 and other U.S. stealth aircraft, but they couldn't tell from the photographs how advanced it was in terms of avionics, composite materials or other key aspects of stealth technology.

They said that China was probably several years behind Russia, whose first stealth fighter, the Sukhoi T-50, made its first flight in January 2010, but that Beijing was catching up faster than expected.

The U.S. cut funding for the F-22 in 2009 in favor of the F-35, a smaller, cheaper stealth fighter that made its first test flight in 2006 and is expected to be fully deployed by around 2014. The F-22 has mainly been used for exercises and operations around U.S. airspace, but some have been deployed to Guam and Okinawa to help maintain the U.S. security umbrella in the Asia-Pacific region.

The Chinese prototype looks like it has "the potential to be a competitor with the F-22 and to be decisively superior to the F-35," said Mr. Fisher. The J-20 has two engines, like the F-22, and is about the same size, while the F-35 is smaller and has only one engine.

China's stealth-fighter program has implications also for Japan, which is considering buying F-35s, and for India, which last month firmed up a deal with Russia to jointly develop and manufacture a stealth fighter.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5030
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: China Military Watch

Postby Kartik » 06 Jan 2011 07:15

DavidD wrote:I don't think so, this plane is designed to be an air superiority fighter first and foremost. If, and that's a big if, China can put the WS-15 in there, then there's no reason why it can't tango with anyone. It has a large lifting body, good wing area(the PAK-FA has small wings too, it just has a wider body so it has a bigger wingspan. It relies much heavier on the lifting body which produces far less lift per area than wings.), and canards, so aerodynamically, it might be the best of all 3 current 5th gen fighters/prototypes. Can you give me some reason why it wouldn't?


Because it will also produce the most drag of all these 3 designs with all that wetted area, which seems to be more than the other two designs.. To be anything as maneuverable as the T-50 or F-22 it needs very high thrust engines, and even then its STR will be lower than the other two with such a large wing and internal volume.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests