China Military Watch

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songfeihong
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby songfeihong » 07 Jan 2011 11:58

I suspect that today is the public maiden flight. These two birds must have flied before.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Indranil » 07 Jan 2011 12:05

If indeed, there are two prototypes, one with a WS-10 engines, then kudos to them. This kind of speed is unprecedented in recent times.

They are really way ahead of what the rest of the world thinks of them.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Jan 2011 12:09

songfeihong wrote:8 pilots line up to shake hands with big boss. 4 for 2 two seat J10B, 1 for K-8, 2 for 2 J20 and one backup maybe.


Umm, this might be a stupid question, but has anyone considered the possibility that there might be two prototypes existing?

I mean, is there any proof that those images were part of the same event?

Since I am not aware of the exact nature or origin of these pics, I am open to correction if somebody has them...

-Vivek


Talk about that shot in the dark about the two prototypes, huh? :D

What did I say about the Chinese?

What might be logic to you and me does not seem to translate to them.

In any case, though. Let's wait and see if it pans out beyond being rumors...

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2011 12:10

vivek_ahuja wrote:
songfeihong wrote:8 pilots line up to shake hands with big boss. 4 for 2 two seat J10B, 1 for K-8, 2 for 2 J20 and one backup maybe.


Umm, this might be a stupid question, but has anyone considered the possibility that there might be two prototypes existing?

I mean, is there any proof that those images were part of the same event?

Since I am not aware of the exact nature or origin of these pics, I am open to correction if somebody has them...

-Vivek


Talk about that shot in the dark about the two prototypes, huh? :D

What did I say about the Chinese?

What might be logic to you and me does not seem to translate to them.

In any case, though. Let's wait and see if it pans out beyond being rumors...


There was always knowledge of a 2nd prototype, but everybody just assumed that it's for static testing. It's really pretty surprising that both are meant to fly.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rohitvats » 07 Jan 2011 12:12

Another poster has asked this question and I'm reiterating it again: Are the dimensions of WS-10X and AL-31 same? If they are not (and basic internet search tells me so), than how can there be two prototypes/TDs of the same aircraft? Will not the difference in dimensions of engines mean that two different birds have been manufactured with differing dimensions? And that lot of extra work will be required in terms of design issues related with housing different engines and their impact on other aspect like inlet design, length of fuselage etc.

So, what gives?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Jan 2011 12:13

DavidD wrote:There was always knowledge of a 2nd prototype, but everybody just assumed that it's for static testing. It's really pretty surprising that both are meant to fly.


Oh okay. I didn't know that.

Yeah, I am pretty ignorant about the current news tidbits coming in regarding the J-20. I will depend on you guys for that stuff.

I just thought: if you hear hoof-beats, think horses, not zebra.

JMT

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2011 12:16

rohitvats wrote:Another poster has asked this question and I'm reiterating it again: Are the dimensions of WS-10X and AL-31 same? If they are not (and basic internet search tells me so), than how can there be two prototypes/TDs of the same aircraft? Will not the difference in dimensions of engines mean that two different birds have been manufactured with differing dimensions? And that lot of extra work will be required in terms of design issues related with housing different engines and their impact on other aspect like inlet design, length of fuselage etc.

So, what gives?


Right, so they must have slightly different designs. But the Chinese do have experience fitting both engines into the same airframe in the J-11, and the WS-10 was designed to be able to fit wherever the AL-31 can fit, so maybe that's not so much of a problem.

Anyhow, they're really taking their sweet time showcasing the plane to the CCP officials, it's taking forever! I hope today wasn't just some sort of exhibition....

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Jan 2011 12:17

rohitvats wrote:So, what gives?


Rohitvats, so far all we "seem to know" about this stuff is that there are in fact two prototypes with different color nozzles. Even this hasn't been fully confirmed. This is of course a far cry from saying that the WS-10x etc has been incorporated in the design.

Why don't we wait and see if there are:

a) Indeed two prototypes on the ground there
b) Both are flyable


Only after this is confirmed, we should speculate about:

c) Two different color nozzles or two different nozzles?
d) corresponding to different engines?

And finally:

e) Should us SDREs brown our pants or not

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby songfeihong » 07 Jan 2011 12:26

What are they doing? As said before, they can't be judged by normal logic. No flight show today.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 12:28

vivek_ahuja wrote:Why don't we wait and see if there are:

a) Indeed two prototypes on the ground there
b) Both are flyable


Only after this is confirmed, we should speculate about:

c) Two different color nozzles or two different nozzles?
d) corresponding to different engines?

And finally:

e) Should us SDREs brown our pants or not


Boss you got the sequence wrong. Our Chingo guests want us to do (e) first and then the rest. That's the whole purpose of this ball by ball commentary of Hu standing up, pilot lining up, Hu sitting down, some pilot going to take a crap etc.

Just one point to note: If indeed all these posters are writing a minute by minute description here based on what they are seeing on TV in China, then that gives away their location right? And we all know that the Great Firewall does not permit access to this dispreputabe SDRE website. Now go figure! :wink:

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 12:31

songfeihong wrote:What are they doing? As said before, they can't be judged by normal logic. No flight show today.


Maybe they are just rehearsing what they will do when one day the J20 flies? We can be rest assured there's be not one misstep save for, perhaps, what the star of the show may on may not do.

But then the question still remains who would be the Star? The one with Russian cojones or the one with full 400 per cent Chinese cojones?

So many questions and even greater number of answers.
:D

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Jan 2011 12:31

amit wrote:Boss you got the sequence wrong. Our Chingo guests want us to do (e) first and then the rest. That's the whole purpose of this ball by ball commentary of Hu standing up, pilot lining up, Hu sitting down, some pilot going to take a crap etc.


:rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Gaur » 07 Jan 2011 12:33

Flight canceled today. VIPs have left, 747 gone, PLA military police gone. Wonder the reason behind creation of so much hype today.

Added Later:
According to various other English aviation forums, there was so much traffic on Chinese military sites and forums that nearly all of them Crashed. Chengdu Aircraft Corp's shares supposedly rose by 2.5% in an hour during all this hype.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rohitvats » 07 Jan 2011 12:40

^^^Sir, I'm not questioning the logic part of having two TD with different engine types. They may very well have the same. Simply saying that if the Chinese fanboys want us to believe that there two prototypes of J-20 with AL-31 and WS-10X, then they also need to come up with crdible answers to these questions.***

As for shivering in me dhotis, sir, IMO, this is nothing but massive psy-ops on part of the Chinese. And as usual, the usual suspects have fallen for the same. We do not know about engine, we do not know about radar, we do not know about other electro-optronics, the CGI show that it looks like a brick with wings and yet, this baby will take on F-22 and PAK-FA? As they say, hope springs eternal in human breast.

***The thing about WS-10X and AL-31 is interesting commentary on state of engine development in China.

To me, it seems that WS-10 is no where near maturity levels as AL-31X and is till WIP. The Chinese may well have development one version with AL-31X to insure that the development can continue apace with out having to bother about the engine reliability.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2011 12:40

Apparently the weather wasn't good enough for a first flight, it'll get worse over the weekend so the earliest possible date is early next week.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Gaur » 07 Jan 2011 12:46

DavidD wrote:Apparently the weather wasn't good enough for a first flight, it'll get worse over the weekend so the earliest possible date is early next week.

Next week? That's too bad.
Last edited by Gaur on 07 Jan 2011 12:49, edited 1 time in total.

vivek_ahuja
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Jan 2011 12:46

rohitvats wrote:Simply saying that if the Chinese fanboys want us to believe that there two prototypes of J-20 with AL-31 and WS-10X, then they also need to come up with crdible answers to these questions.***


Agreed.

As for shivering in me dhotis...IMO, this is nothing but massive psy-ops on part of the Chinese.


Comrade Rohitvats,

How dare your dhoti defy the mighty Chinese nation and their obviously superior advances in aeronautics? :P :mrgreen:

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rohitvats » 07 Jan 2011 12:49

DavidD wrote: Right, so they must have slightly different designs. But the Chinese do have experience fitting both engines into the same airframe in the J-11, and the WS-10 was designed to be able to fit wherever the AL-31 can fit, so maybe that's not so much of a problem........


My dear good sir, you underestimate the compexity of fitting an engine into a combat aircraft.

J-11 with two different engines may well have happened as a test bed - but that was done to a proven airframe. Here, you're trying to develop two prototypes which will need to be designed and tested from ground up considering different dimensions and requirements for the engines. Simple question - will the inlet design be able to handle both AL-31 and WS-10X?

As for fitting WS-10 where ever AL-31 can go, well, I'm sure this is not as simple as you make it seem. For example, this is what wiki tells me:

AL-31 - Diameter: 905 mm inlet; 1280 mm maximum external
WS-10 - Diameter: 950 mm inlet

Is it that simple a job of changing engines as changing the flat tyre on a car?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby pralay » 07 Jan 2011 12:53

Don't visit chinese military forums and sites
They must be monitoring it, as it will give them valuable targets to work on. :)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2011 12:55

First prototype, note the yellow band to the right of the cockpit:
Image

Second prototype, note the lack of the yellow band, and of course the shinier nozzle:
Image

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2011 13:00

rohitvats wrote:
DavidD wrote: Right, so they must have slightly different designs. But the Chinese do have experience fitting both engines into the same airframe in the J-11, and the WS-10 was designed to be able to fit wherever the AL-31 can fit, so maybe that's not so much of a problem........


My dear good sir, you underestimate the compexity of fitting an engine into a combat aircraft.

J-11 with two different engines may well have happened as a test bed - but that was done to a proven airframe. Here, you're trying to develop two prototypes which will need to be designed and tested from ground up considering different dimensions and requirements for the engines. Simple question - will the inlet design be able to handle both AL-31 and WS-10X?

As for fitting WS-10 where ever AL-31 can go, well, I'm sure this is not as simple as you make it seem. For example, this is what wiki tells me:

AL-31 - Diameter: 905 mm inlet; 1280 mm maximum external
WS-10 - Diameter: 950 mm inlet

Is it that simple a job of changing engines as changing the flat tyre on a car?


Anything associated with something as sophisticated as fighter jets is complicated, but comparatively speaking, building something that uses the WS-10x vs. the AL-31 is not too difficult. The J-20 is designed for neither engine anyway.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 13:02

If this nautanki about Hu coming all the way the Chengdu with PLA top brass in a 747 to watch the flight which got canceled because it was raining is true then all I can say is that's incredible! What is he going to do next week, make the same trip?

But I can't understand why the Paramount Leader of the People's Republic of China needs to come for the first flight of a new plane?

But I suppose that's natural having grown up in a SDRE and backward country like India. :rotfl: :rotfl: :-)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 13:09

DavidD wrote:Anything associated with something as sophisticated as fighter jets is complicated, but comparatively speaking, building something that uses the WS-10x vs. the AL-31 is not too difficult. The J-20 is designed for neither engine anyway.


David,

Even accepting that it's not difficult (with a extra dose of credulity, mind you) can you tell me what's the purpose?

Can you tell us what is being tested? The airframe or the engine? If it's the airframe why do you need to parade around two prototypes.

I think its pretty obvious, even to Chingos (that's not a bad word its a combination of Chinese+jingos :-) ) that as of now the AL-31 is a much better engine than the WS10x (whatever). So given that all things are equal (which it may not be because there will be difference in structure and dimensions of the two J20s) then the one being powered by the Russian engine will fulfill the mission parameters of the first flight much better than the second sample with the Chinese engine.

Sorry but either your designers are incredibly stupid or more likely there is a story behind this "two prototypes with different engines" that we don't know about.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby naren » 07 Jan 2011 13:12

Actually, whipping up the Chino Stealth shelth phyter hysteria has its utility. A certain supah powah with a certain Joint Strike Fighter might be tempted to sell it to SDRE folks in turd world. Good good.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby rohitvats » 07 Jan 2011 13:18

One simple question - why is there not a single photo of both the prototypes togehter? I mean, if the idea is shock and awe the world, then two Stealth A/C in same snap means double the bang, no?

My theory:

(1) Both these a/c are in different locations
(2) The one with Russian engines will fly while the other is for more H&D purpose - fly it secretly so that no news, except the good news, about it goes out. If all works out, good, show this puppy as well. If no, well, it was always for static tests.

(3) Uber CT - these sets of snaps are at different time with color of nozzles painted differently.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2011 13:22

amit wrote:
DavidD wrote:Anything associated with something as sophisticated as fighter jets is complicated, but comparatively speaking, building something that uses the WS-10x vs. the AL-31 is not too difficult. The J-20 is designed for neither engine anyway.


David,

Even accepting that it's not difficult (with a extra dose of credulity, mind you) can you tell me what's the purpose?

Can you tell us what is being tested? The airframe or the engine? If it's the airframe why do you need to parade around two prototypes.

I think its pretty obvious, even to Chingos (that's not a bad word its a combination of Chinese+jingos :-) ) that as of now the AL-31 is a much better engine than the WS10x (whatever). So given that all things are equal (which it may not be because there will be difference in structure and dimensions of the two J20s) then the one being powered by the Russian engine will fulfill the mission parameters of the first flight much better than the second sample with the Chinese engine.

Sorry but either your designers are incredibly stupid or more likely there is a story behind this "two prototypes with different engines" that we don't know about.


Obviously, I don't have any inside sources who'd give me any definitive answer, so I only have some of my own conjectures. First, we don't know for sure yet if the shiny nozzle prototype is even movable on its own yet. It may not even be a WS-10x nozzle, heck, it may be a non-operational WS-15 in there so they can do some static testing with the final-ish configuration. If it's indeed meant to fly, then I would think that since the WS-10 did not become reliable enough until this past year, that the original design was made with the AL-31 in mind. The Chinese are known to build back-ups. For example, when the 052C destroyer was built, two less advanced 051's were built as well concurrently. That was to make sure that there's a simpler, more sure-thing back-up in case the more advanced machine doesn't work as expected. It could be the same thing here, as the AL-31 has been the sure thing since the JXX program started, while nobody knew when the WS-10 was gonna be ready.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2011 13:25

rohitvats wrote:One simple question - why is there not a single photo of both the prototypes togehter? I mean, if the idea is shock and awe the world, then two Stealth A/C in same snap means double the bang, no?

My theory:

(1) Both these a/c are in different locations
(2) The one with Russian engines will fly while the other is for more H&D purpose - fly it secretly so that no news, except the good news, about it goes out. If all works out, good, show this puppy as well. If no, well, it was always for static tests.

(3) Uber CT - these sets of snaps are at different time with color of nozzles painted differently.


Judging by the fanfare surrounding the J-20, I think both planes have flown already if they're both meant to fly. As for photos, I'd advise you to be a bit more patient. If they really wanted to shock and awe people they wouldn't have started the leak with an extremely fuzzy long distance photo through the fog and branches. It seems like the purpose was to use mystery to build up the hype or something.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 13:30

DavidD wrote:It seems like the purpose was to use mystery to build up the hype or something.


Isn't that exactly the way you shock and awe folks? By building up the hype?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Multatuli » 07 Jan 2011 13:33

ordos wrote

The Test Pilot of the J20 just farted. Today was indeed THE day.


Yup, it's come this, a Chinese gives a 'live coverage' of the ( aborted ) first flight of the J-20 on BRF. As if it's that important to us, really!
Amazing that the moderators don't step in. I guess they ( the mods ) kind of pity the Chinese, they ( the Chinese ) come here to impress us with their latest technological marvel, but all the Indians do is point out how unlikely it is that they really have achieved all they claim to have achieved.

Both Chinese 4th generation fighters, the J-10 and J-11, are copies of foreign designs. The best the Chinese could do by themself is the J-17, a 3.5 generation fighter ( meaning it's somewhere between a 3rd generation and a 4th generation, most likely closer to a 3rd generation ) and now all of a sudden we're to belief that they will have an aircraft on par with the PAK-FA and the F-22.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2011 13:33

amit wrote:
DavidD wrote:It seems like the purpose was to use mystery to build up the hype or something.


Isn't that exactly the way you shock and awe folks? By building up the hype?


Maybe, I didn't really care to discuss whether or not they want to shock and awe. I was just trying to say that not having pics of the two prototypes together fits the current pattern, which is a pattern that doesn't fit vivek's idea of what shock and awe is.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 13:49

DavidD wrote:Maybe, I didn't really care to discuss whether or not they want to shock and awe. I was just trying to say that not having pics of the two prototypes together fits the current pattern, which is a pattern that doesn't fit vivek's idea of what shock and awe is.


:D

You know David on another very popular thread on BRF this would have been classified as a bona fide downhill skiing.

Anyway just so that you know, I think the J20 as it stands today from the photos is an impressive achievement and should be left at that. If you try to squeeze too much out of it then people will start to wonder if it's all a big scam.

If the J20 has even half the capability of the F22 or Pak-Fa then that's a fantastic achievement for a country which does not have the rich history of plane building that the US and Russians have. And one could safely say that the next plane would match the best of US and Russian planes.

But if you say the J20 is even better or comparable to those planes without any information about radar, senor suite, composites that went into the frame and most importantly what engine then folks who understand these things (and I'm sure you and fellow Chingos have found that there are a lot of folks here who understand) are not going to take you or the pictures seriously.

JMT and all that.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Sanku » 07 Jan 2011 13:52

Dont Hu and other Chinese feel, well stupid, about their "come in 747 prance about, no fly, go home"

I thought these guys were supposed to care a lot about face?

Whats any face in coming to look at a dummy on some random airstrip somewhere and going back looking like a fool?

It is almost like trying to break a coconut or Arihant to find that Arihant has been replaced by a photo since the real deal was being kept "indoors" due to too much sun in Vizag.

Hell even we "chalta hai" Indians would feel morosely stupid about such a stupid stupid pointless "chakkar" by a Head of State.

The Chinese must have really low thresholds of self respect (real self respect)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 13:55

Sanku wrote:Dont Hu and other Chinese feel, well stupid, about their "come in 747 prance about, no fly, go home"

I thought these guys were supposed to care a lot about face?

Whats any face in coming to look at a dummy on some random airstrip somewhere and going back looking like a fool?

It is almost like trying to break a coconut or Arihant to find that Arihant has been replaced by a photo since the real deal was being kept "indoors" due to too much sun in Vizag.

Hell even we "chalta hai" Indians would feel morosely stupid about such a stupid stupid pointless "chakkar" by a Head of State.

The Chinese must have really low thresholds of self respect (real self respect)


:D

Ouch! That must of hurt.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Gaur » 07 Jan 2011 14:13

I know that I am only going to get a lot of flak for this but I am going to say this anyways. While most posters here are posting about how we should not shake with fear because of J-20, I find that some here are giving the impression of doing exactly that by showing their insecurity. All the ridiculing and jingoistic sneering is making us look most childish. Some people are sneering at J-20 saying that it will be nothing in compared to PAK-FA. OK..agreed. But if you truly believe that then why the need for all this jealousy and insecurity? In fact, I am finding DavidD to be behaving in the most commendable fashion on the face of all this jingoistic childishness...and this is coming from an Indian.
Get some confidence guys. We have PAK-FA and hopefully AMCA will also materialize soon. Why the need for so much insecurity?
Last edited by Gaur on 07 Jan 2011 14:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2011 14:15

songfeihong wrote:I suspect that today is the public maiden flight. These two birds must have flied before.



Please wake me up when it actually flies.

This is what someone wrote yesterday - 6 Jan 2010
wrdos wrote:Updated 14:27 Chinese time

The engine of the J20 started

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Sanku » 07 Jan 2011 14:16

Hu me? No no, I am not even thinking about what is that things name.

I am merely wondering about the inanity of the tamasha whose ball by ball commentary was being provided.

Can I please do that?

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 14:26

Gaur wrote:I know that I am only going to get a lot of flak for this but I am going to say this anyways. While most posters here are posting about how we should not shake with fear because of J-20, I find that some here are giving the impression of doing exactly that by showing their insecurity. All the ridiculing and jingoistic sneering is making us look most childish. Some people are sneering at J-20 saying that it will be nothing in compared to PAK-FA. OK..agreed. But if you truly believe that then why the need for all this jealousy and insecurity? In fact, I am finding DavidD to be behaving in the most commendable fashion on the face of all this jingoistic childishness...and this is coming from an Indian.
Get some confidence guys. We have PAK-FA and hopefully AMCA will also materialize soon. Why the need for so much insecurity?


Gaur bhaiya,

Please don't take this as flak, maybe at the most a flake.

But if you follow the sequence of posts on this fast moving thread, then you'll see who actually started to comparison with F22 and Pak-Fa. I think you'll find that exercise more profitable than measuring the amount of shake our dhotis are registering in the recto meter while we quake with fear (I'm sure it's not constipation). :-)

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby amit » 07 Jan 2011 14:32

shiv wrote:Please wake me up when it actually flies.


Hope you don't end up becoming a dhot-clad SDRE version of Rip Van Winkle - TFTA in the front but dhoti fluttering in the rear because you don't have something to stick up your posterior*! :-)

* good description of JXX?
Last edited by amit on 07 Jan 2011 14:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Indranil » 07 Jan 2011 14:35

Gaur wrote:I know that I am only going to get a lot of flak for this but I am going to say this anyways. While most posters here are posting about how we should not shake with fear because of J-20, I find that some here are giving the impression of doing exactly that by showing their insecurity. All the ridiculing and jingoistic sneering is making us look most childish. Some people are sneering at J-20 saying that it will be nothing in compared to PAK-FA. OK..agreed. But if you truly believe that then why the need for all this jealousy and insecurity? In fact, I am finding DavidD to be behaving in the most commendable fashion on the face of all this jingoistic childishness...and this is coming from an Indian.
Get some confidence guys. We have PAK-FA and hopefully AMCA will also materialize soon. Why the need for so much insecurity?

No, I completely support you!

Gaur
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Posts: 2009
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Re: China Military Watch

Postby Gaur » 07 Jan 2011 14:39

amit,
Yes I am perfectly aware how it was started. IMHO, the argument of "not my fault, he started it. I am just doing it because of him" is very kindergarten like. Again please take no offense, I am not pointing towards you in any way. What I am saying is this. Chinese made J-20? OK..good for them. We will be fielding PAK-FAs and AMCAs in the near future. So, why so much insecurity?

Regardless of the capability of J-20, I personally find it very impressive of the Chinese to have come up with a new design this quickly. That is, I will be very impressed if it flies (which I believe it will). No one can truly tell about the capability of J-20, but no can deny the determination and zeal of Chinese govt and public regarding military matters. That is a trait that I find most admirable.

Anyway, these are my views. You are welcome to agree or disagree as you wish. :-)

indranilroy,
Thanks. You are one of the few posters who have been most level headed. I have been reading your posts with great enthusiasm. :)
Last edited by Gaur on 07 Jan 2011 14:42, edited 1 time in total.


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