Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2008 08:48


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Postby JaiS » 09 Feb 2008 22:36

Rakman, the thread prior to the previous one was archived. Requesting archival of the previous thread. TIA !

Drone crashes in Peshawar

PESHAWAR - Two children sustained minor injuries when a drone fell down over a house at Aabdara area close to Peshawar Airport on Friday afternoon.

The high-ups of Pakistan Air Force and police department rushed towards the site soon after the crash. The condition of the injured children is stated to be out of danger.


UAV of PAF crashes near Peshawar

Updated at: 2300 PST, Friday, February 08, 2008

PESHAWAR: An Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) of Pakitan Air Force crashed on the ground near Peshawar on Friday.

“It was a UAV which has no pilot in it :rotfl: and it crashed due to technical malfunction,â€
Last edited by JaiS on 09 Feb 2008 23:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JaiS » 09 Feb 2008 22:48

7 Pakistan army officials embrace Shahadat in helicopter Crash

ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan Army helicopter crashed near Tanai, on Jandola-Wana road at 2.40 pm on Wednesday.

On board were seven officers namely, Major General Javed Sultan, Brig. Afzal Cheema, Brig. Saeed Khan, Lt. Col Omar Farooq, Capt. Shehzad, Capt Naveed (Pilot), Capt Haroon (Pilot), and one non-commissioned officer, crew chief Naik Amir embraced shahadat in the crash, said an ISPR news release.

Reportedly, the crash occurred due to technical fault.


The rescue teams have rushed to the scene.

President Condoles

President Pervez Musharraf Wednesday expressed his deep shock and grief over the death of eight military personnel, including GOC Kohat, in the crash of a military helicopter.

A technical malfunction in a Bell helicopter resulted in the killing of General Officer Commanding Kohat Major General Javed Sultan, two Brigadiars, two pilots and a Junior Commissioned Officer in South Waziristan Agency.

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Postby JaiS » 13 Feb 2008 13:18

Singha wrote:I expect 90% of PAF and our bison/mig29s will fall apart inside of a week in
sustained combat ops. but thats ok, because with PAF grounded we can make
the falling apart process more permanent by bombing their bases with jags, mig27, mirages and su30s.


Singha,

What do mean when you say fall apart ? Are you commenting on maintainance related issues ? Secondly, what kind of a timeframe are you talking about ?

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Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2008 13:55

soviet era gear and their chinese clones were designed for a intense 2 week
campaign and to be scrapped thereafter - when they were new. now I dont
think the inventory I listed which years old would survive one week without
serious downtime issues.
western a/c being more complex need more care and upkeep but can continue the war.

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Postby JCage » 13 Feb 2008 15:28

JaiS wrote:
Singha wrote:I expect 90% of PAF and our bison/mig29s will fall apart inside of a week in
sustained combat ops. but thats ok, because with PAF grounded we can make
the falling apart process more permanent by bombing their bases with jags, mig27, mirages and su30s.


Singha,

What do mean when you say fall apart ? Are you commenting on maintainance related issues ? Secondly, what kind of a timeframe are you talking about ?


Things arent that bleak at all. The IAF per disclosed data is planning easily more than 2 weeks of high intensity combat ops, plus more - dont know whethe we should be discussing this openly. The MiG-29 and MiG-21 spares (for that matter all aircraft) will be inventoried accordingly. Almost all of the MiG-29s flight critical (mandatory SKU) spares and those of the 21's are built in India per queries I confirmed. The spares that arent are for some avionics items which can and are being stockpiled accordingly.
The newer MiGs are meant to be much more intensively used as well, eg the 29 Ks are to have an uptime of 90% and more, with the warheousing for spares etc to be built as part of the contract in India. And the same avioncis fit is going for the MiG-29 upgrade for the IAF. These will surely be maintained common for both aircraft. Another thing is that as part of the MiG-29 upgrade, the MiG-29s will receive both airframe overhaul and the new RD-33 engines built at HAL, allowing both more intensive usage, as well as better availability of even non mandatory engine spares.

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Postby sum » 13 Feb 2008 20:55

Recall reading somewhere that the Pakis have ordered few Il-78 refuellers from Uzbekistan??
Is it true or just a unmentionable site rumour??

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Postby satya » 13 Feb 2008 21:22

Recall reading somewhere that the Pakis have ordered few Il-78 refuellers from Uzbekistan??
Is it true or just a unmentionable site rumour??


Its true but no deal has been finalised however Pukees are indeed scouting for refuelers . Most likely 2012-2015 time frame will see induction of first air-refuellers in TSPAF

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Postby sum » 14 Feb 2008 07:42

Why does a relatively small country like pak need refuellers?? Esp when it is the first to proclaim that it is a "defensive" air force( meaning they wont be going far from their bases??).......

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Postby p_saggu » 14 Feb 2008 13:27

Only possible reason would be that they still harbour wet dreams of somehow making it to Bombay High or Trombay itself following a circutious route through eastern arabian sea...

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Postby JCage » 14 Feb 2008 13:31

sum wrote:Why does a relatively small country like pak need refuellers?? Esp when it is the first to proclaim that it is a "defensive" air force( meaning they wont be going far from their bases??).......


They have a limited pool of F-16s which they plan to use to defend their Erieye against our MKIs. For a decent CAP, they'll have to use refuellers. The problem for the PAF is pathetic planning, when the IAF is moving to a heavy/ medium (MKI/ MRCA) force backed up by light fighters (LCA)- they only have light/ medium fighters as counters, with a heavy tilt towards the former. When the PAF brags of buying 200-250 JF-17s, one can only shake one's head at their lack of choices passed off as something to be proud of.

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Postby uddu » 14 Feb 2008 17:09

The criminals are going to arm the terrorists.
Germany May Allow Sale to Pakistan of `Silent' HDW-Made Subs
Link

Feb. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Germany may approve the sale to Pakistan of three naval submarines made by ThyssenKrupp AG's HDW unit, ignoring the concerns of opposition lawmakers who claim the step might help stoke an arms race in the Indian Ocean.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's arms export council needs time to decide whether to go ahead with the sale, according to a government statement on the German parliament's Web site. The decision will take account of unrest in Pakistan as the country prepares for Feb. 18 elections, as well as potential human rights abuses and economic interests, the government said.

Navy materiel ``generally cannot be misused for internal repression or human rights infringements and the regional conflict with India doesn't have a naval component,'' the government said. Though a decision on the sale is still pending, such a step would help secure jobs at Kiel-based HDW ``for several years,'' it said.

The opposition Green Party fears that selling the U214 submarines will help push tension between India and Pakistan to the seas. Powered by silent fuel-cells, the deep-diving U214s are difficult to detect and their acquisition may spur a new arms race by forcing a potential foe to upgrade interception technology, the Greens say.

Merkel's government has indicated to Pakistan that it will approve the sale and will provide a Hermes export guarantee worth 1.3 billion euros ($1.9 billion) for HDW, the Greens said in a preamble to the government statement. Merkel's export council, comprising Cabinet ministers, convenes in secret.

Submarine Exports

The submarine exports would ``not comply with Germany's foreign and security policy interests'' and would infringe arms export rules, the lawmakers said. Pakistan's ``fragile, nuclear- armed regime is located at the center of a violent crisis-hub that stretches from Iran across Afghanistan to China and India.''

U214s sold by HDW to foreign governments are not equipped to fire missiles, the government said. The submarine has eight torpedo tubes and is technologically ``15 years'' ahead of the three French-made Agosta-class submarines operated by the Pakistani navy, said the Greens Party.

Germany ``fundamentally recognizes the right of other states to arm their forces with appropriate conventional means, exercising their right of self-defense,'' the statement said, adding that in Germany's view ``Pakistan's naval forces see modern submarines as a classic means to build their main deterrence against a blockade or an attack by a stronger opponent.''

This is like giving boon to Basmasura. With this silent subs, they can cripple maritime traffic in the region, which can have a tremendous impact on world economy.

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Postby sum » 14 Feb 2008 21:14

Navy materiel ``generally cannot be misused for internal repression or human rights infringements and the regional conflict with India doesn't have a naval component,'' the government said

Yeah,right... :roll: :roll:
There is no aerial component also,so please sell the typhoon....
Btw,how will the Pakis finance this when their economy is in shambles even with Unkil's aid being pumped in??

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Postby derkonig » 14 Feb 2008 21:28

sum wrote:Btw,how will the Pakis finance this when their economy is in shambles even with Unkil's aid being pumped in??


ofcourse empelol hu.

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Postby Johann » 15 Feb 2008 07:59

The bristling response to the suggestion that its borrowing ideas from the IA is amusing, but the re-organisation is important.

The COAS as an institution had long resisted an additional layer of command no matter how much military sense it made thanks to political reasons.

What is interesting is to see the way that the war with the Pakiban will affect the arrangement of commands and the assignment of forces.

Phased plan of command indigenous: Armyhttp://www.nation.com.pk/daily/feb-2008/11/index8.php

Maqbool Malik
[quote]ISLAMABAD - The Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) Sunday rejected a report claiming that the Pakistan Army’s ongoing phased programme is based on Indian pattern of army commands.

An ISPR spokesman told TheNation that the move to set up army commands in phases was part of the efforts aiming at organising the force on modern lines so that it could effectively meet the present day challenges.

“This (the programme) was required to keep pace with the changing times,â€

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Postby Johann » 15 Feb 2008 09:06

Been gone for a bit, but this *really* ought to have been put up by someone else;

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080204/j&k.htm

Jammu, February 3 (UNI)

At least nine brigades of various Strike Corps, including two from the crucial I Corps's (also known as Army Reserve North) Kharian-based 17 Infantry Division, have been moved towards violent Afghan borders, sources said.

...Sources said three Brigades of Peshawar-based XI Corps and two of Quetta-based XII Corps were also moved to take on violence in the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) on bordering Afghanistan.

...Meanwhile, sources said one Brigade each from the XXX Corps (Gujaranwala) and Bahawalpur-headquartered XXXI Corps has also been relocated to meet the ''internal crises'' in Pakistan.


This is the equivalent of an entire *corps* that has been shifted westwards from the IB/LoC.

The PA for the last four years of operations in Pasthun areas has attempted to avoid any fundamental re-alignment of forces - much of the burden has fallen on paramilitary internal security forces like the Frontier Corps.

The battalion-level Taliban assaults on four FC forts in mid-January, the friendship tunnel, etc, and the shortage of manpower to retake these positions *and* secure lines of communication between them has forced the PA to face reality.

Unlike the Soviets in Afghanistan, or the Americans in Iraq, the Pakistanis do have the manpower to re-establish basic physical control of population centres and main roads *simultaneously*.

This will come at the cost of the Pakistan Army's ability to mount offensive operations (Zia's 'riposte' doctrine) across the IB/LoC has been seriously, as well as its strategic reserves, and its overall strategic flexibility.

These force re-alignments are not temporary, because Pakistan's problems with the Taliban are far from temporary.

The Pakistani Army is going to be a lot more nervous when thinking about conventional conflict with India.

===============================================

A technical malfunction in a Bell helicopter resulted in the killing of General Officer Commanding Kohat Major General Javed Sultan, two Brigadiars, two pilots and a Junior Commissioned Officer in South Waziristan Agency.


Maj. Gen. Sultan had commanded 9th Infantry Division since November. The division has had the lead role in operations in Waziristan right from the start.

Although the Pakistanis are denying it, it is *very* possible that the helicopter was shot down by the Pakiban.

The Pakistanis have had helicopters hit several times in the last year of operations in Waziristan, although they are extremely cagey about their exact losses.

As I said earlier, the size of the theatre, the number of places where the Taliban are operating, combined with battle damage and losses in previous operations has affected their AH-1 gunship availability in particular. There's a lot more use of artillery.

The threat to transport helicopters can be managed, but it makes securing the roads all the more important, particularly given the PA and PAF's airlift capacity was moderate to start with.

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Postby Naidu » 15 Feb 2008 09:31

Interesting news, if true, about the PA units moving west to engage the Pakiban. But most reports to date still seem to indicate that it is the FC and the Scouts/Levies/Khasadhars that are facing the Pakiban, and that most regular PA infantry units are not venturing out. They only seem to be providing artillery support, some occasional air support via heli gunships and a few SSG-led misadventures.

Johann and others: Is there any evidence of the regular PA doing any heavy lifting in pursuit of their counter-Pakiban campaign so far? My take is that they really do not want to eliminate them. Just make peace deals; and when things get a bit hot, send in the FC to fire off a few rounds and surrender. Everything else is for a show.

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Postby Johann » 15 Feb 2008 20:03

Hi Naidu,

The troop movements are in progress.

The real changes are probably going to be seen over the next month.

As long as the Pakistani state *refused* to deal with chronic and acute shortage of manpower in NWFP and FATA, given the rich array of targets, it was inevitable that the commanders would cut deals, and that the rank and file's morale would be low.

The PA will still face casualties, but the scale of operations that the Pakiban will be able to conduct will be severely restricted. IED attacks instead of Bn level attacks on forts, etc. The kidnapping of individual officals, instead the takeover of entire villages or towns.

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Postby A Sharma » 15 Feb 2008 20:36

FROM DAWN

Pakistan fighter jet crashes, pilot killed ISLAMABAD, Feb 15 (AFP) -

A French-built Pakistan Air Force Mirage fighter jet crashed in central Pakistan on Friday, killing the pilot, an air force spokesman said. The jet came down 30 kilometres southeast of Sargodha city in Punjab province, the site of a major air force base, he said. “The jet was on an operational training mission when it came down apparently due to technical malfunctioning. The pilot embraced shahadat (martyrdom),â€

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Postby BijuShet » 15 Feb 2008 21:27

Johann wrote:Been gone for a bit, but this *really* ought to have been put up by someone else;

At least nine brigades of various Strike Corps, including two from the crucial I Corps's (also known as Army Reserve North) Kharian-based 17 Infantry Division, have been moved towards violent Afghan borders, sources said.

....
This is the equivalent of an entire *corps* that has been shifted westwards from the IB/LoC.


Johann any thoughts on how this reduction of troop levels along IB/LOC will affect India vis-a-vis Jehadis creeping into India. Will the old adage "When the cat’s away, the mice will play" come to haunt Indian security forces. With the reduced oversight will the HUJI and LET vermin not use the opportunity to bolster and energise its ranks? I agree that PA was never interested in securing Indian interests but the fact that they were the big bad dog in the neighborhood would have kept some of the other jehadis in check. This shift in focus of PA strength, could embolden the Jehadis to use the opportunity to gain the upper hand in J&K affairs and torment us?

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Postby ranganathan » 15 Feb 2008 21:37

If India is clever this is the ideal time for cross border Spec op missions to wipe out the training camps. Its a golden opportunity to wipe out a few thousand terrorists at one go. But you need leadership with balls like PVN or IG.

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Postby Rudranathh » 15 Feb 2008 22:04

^Or Sri Manmohan Singh who has made some good moves in the eastern sector to check mate chinese designs.

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Postby A Sharma » 15 Feb 2008 22:05

PAF plane crashes, pilot killed

Pakistan Air Force fighter plane ‘Mairaj’ crashed Friday in Shaheenabad area near Sargodha, killing its pilot Wing Commander, Azhar Ismail

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Postby Naidu » 15 Feb 2008 22:22

I'll believe it when I see it! The PA really, seriously engaging the Tal Qaida (the Taliban-Al Qaida combine), that is.

How much of this PA re-deployment is for election and post-election duty vs moving to the Western front? Haven't we heard about similar movements months before (from BR Raman, I think), and yet nothing significant has changed as far as the PA's role? And here we are still discussing PA's imminent redeployment West.

I just hope this doesn't lull the IA and IB into complacency, a la Kargil. "But we thought they were all out in Waziristan chasing GOATs!"

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Postby BijuShet » 15 Feb 2008 22:51

ranganathan wrote:If India is clever this is the ideal time for cross border Spec op missions to wipe out the training camps. Its a golden opportunity to wipe out a few thousand terrorists at one go. But you need leadership with balls like PVN or IG.


IMVHO the Spec op missions to wipe out the training camps in POK, will not work. Military bases with all its tangible assets can be destroyed with the use of force so as to inflict collateral damage in terms of human casualties and rebuilding costs. These camps are at best a collections of semi-permanent structures, may be some tents and ditches etc. At these camps, young men learn the basic combat skills. They also learn the use of weapons and explosives along with lessons in communication etc. The infrastructure required to impart such skills will be very minimal. Plus it is likely that these camps are spread out over a wide area in POK. At best we can inflict some human casualties but these camps will be quickly rebuilt when we leave.

At the first sign of an attack the vermin in these camps will melt into the local population. Unless we go in as a large force and are prepared to station our forces in large numbers over a long period of time there will not be any meaningful gain for us. And that definitely will result in a direct conflict with Pakistan. To do that will require a strong resolve and the political will from India and the ability to manage world criticism that is bound to occur after our endeavor. With the Indian economy doing upwards of 9% growth there will be very little support for such an effort from the general population and the Indian industry as well. As much as we want an end to this menace of Jihadi terrorism in India, our best bet is to do a USSR on Pakistan. We keep pushing them to spend more on internal security and less on bread butter issues. We need to use their internal conflicts to our advantage. If the kettle boils without a spillover for a long period then the longer it will take for Pakistan to get on to the path of recovery. This will be the best outcome for India in the next 2 decades where Indian population can live in relative security while the fire in the neighbor’s home slowly turns it to dust. Eventually when only the ashes remain we will reclaim what is rightfully ours. Until then we need to be vigilant in the protection of our home and not let any of these vermin to come across.

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Postby Nayak » 16 Feb 2008 10:38

Mirage fighter crashes, pilot killed: PAF

[quote]
ISLAMABAD: A Mirage aircraft of the Pakistan Air force crashed on Friday near Sargodha, killing its pilot.

“Pakistan Air Force announces with great sorrow and grief that a Mirage fighter aircraft, while on a routine operational training mission, crashed 30 kilometres south east of Sargodha,â€

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Postby Nayak » 16 Feb 2008 10:48

Pakistan needs modern weapons to counter insurgency: ex-PAF officer

Saturday, February 16, 2008
LONDON: A former senior officer of Pakistan Air Force has called on the West to provide his country with modern weapons for dealing with counter insurgency and to avoid collateral damage.

Air Marshal (retd) Masood Akhtar was speaking at a seminar titled "The Role of Air Power in Counter-Insurgency. Pakistan's Experience in the Tribal Region" at the International Institute of Strategic Studies here on Thursday. He said the Pakistani forces are battling a Taliban insurgency in the tribal areas in the NWFP in which the PAF is playing an important role. However, he added that helicopters rather than fixed-wing warplanes had been found more useful in these hilly areas.

Air Marshal Masood, who has been a fighter pilot for 35 years and with over 2,500 hours of flying experience on a variety of PAF fighter and training aircraft, said the Air Force had been using this air power with caution and restrain in order to prevent collateral damage. He was of the view that precision guided ammunitions were better suited for PAF's requirement rather than 1,000-pound or 500-pound bombs which caused greater collateral damage. "If we are provided with smaller and smarter bombs, we could easily avoid unintended damage to civilian life or property," he said. For the air power to be successful in counter-insurgency, he said a lot depended on good ground intelligence because any wrong information could lead to unwarranted damages.

Air Marshal Masood, who also served as a Commandant, Air War College, during the course of his service with the PAF, noted that damages to civilian life and property had resulted into a backlash which had been evident by the recent attacks on the PAF personnel by suicide bombers. He also explained the circumstances, which led to the rise of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban and said such extremists groups emerged as a result of the global politics in which Pakistan, willy-nilly, had been caught up with and was paying a heavy price.

Masood said during the Soviet Unionís 10 years of occupation of Afghanistan, the PAF had brought down a dozen Soviet and Afghan Air Force planes found in violation of the Pakistan territory. The retired air force officer said Pakistan was pushed into thinking itself as a citadel of Islam as a consequence of the Cold War in which the West's primary motive was to defeat Communism of the Soviet Union and stop its spread.

He said both Osama Bin Laden and Mulla Omar had used globalisation to the hilt and achieved their objectives. He stressed the need for launching political, economic and social campaigns in the tribal areas to win the hearts and minds of the people and wean them from extremist ideology.

Masood called for overhauling the education system in Pakistan with greater focus on providing an effective primary education to replace religious seminaries. "Only a well-established and efficient unified education system could provide a basis and sense of nationhood," he asserted.

He pointed out the difficulties of fighting an enemy without a face and thought that Pakistan will have to fight such non-state factors for a long time.

Responding to questions, he said there is reluctance on the part of the West to give Pakistan sophisticated weapons while the country is averse to allowing Nato troops to operate inside its borders.


Baki Abdul begging for more baksheesh.

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Postby satya » 16 Feb 2008 20:54

Can someone provide info on when was the last time TSPA conducted exercises at div. level or above?

It seems a bit strange tht TSPA has not done any field exercises atleast publicily at div. levels or above even after announcement and subsequent field exerices by IA based on Cold Start doctrine or is it tht TSPA's training command and GHQ is confident with wargaming softwares only ?

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Postby Johann » 19 Feb 2008 06:53

Naidu wrote:I'll believe it when I see it! The PA really, seriously engaging the Tal Qaida (the Taliban-Al Qaida combine), that is.


Naidu,

Who said that the PA was serious about eliminating Al Qaeda or Taliban?

The Pakistani state has just gotten serious about stemming the loss control in NWFP as a whole and its security and transport infrastructure in FATA.

The Pakiban as a guerilla movement will not base a campaign on attacking the Pakistani state head-on where it is strong - up to this point that was just about nowhere in Pashtun areas.

The redeployments are meant to restore confidance to the Pakistani state in Pashtun areas by strengthening its presence across the board, and deterring attempts to seize population centres, infrastructure, etc.

If the troop deployments are short term, then the state's relief from the pressure will also be temporary.

With the reduced oversight will the HUJI and LET vermin not use the opportunity to bolster and energise its ranks? I agree that PA was never interested in securing Indian interests but the fact that they were the big bad dog in the neighborhood would have kept some of the other jehadis in check. This shift in focus of PA strength, could embolden the Jehadis to use the opportunity to gain the upper hand in J&K affairs and torment us?


ranganathan wrote:If India is clever this is the ideal time for cross border Spec op missions to wipe out the training camps. Its a golden opportunity to wipe out a few thousand terrorists at one go. But you need leadership with balls like PVN or IG


None of the brigades moved appear to have been from along the LoC - almost all seem to have been from from Pakistani Punjab.

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Postby NRao » 19 Feb 2008 07:17

ranganathan wrote:If India is clever this is the ideal time for cross border Spec op missions to wipe out the training camps. Its a golden opportunity to wipe out a few thousand terrorists at one go. But you need leadership with balls like PVN or IG.


The US brokered a "deal" and India is expected to play her part.

The infiltration has declined due to the fencing....which has made them Jihadis move to the coast.

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Postby Nayak » 20 Feb 2008 08:19

Due apologies for posting the article in full

Stuck in Sichuan: Pakistani JF-17 Program Grounded? No.

[quote]
Back in January, DID wrote:

“The military world has no shortage of irony. The defense industry has its moments too, as Pakistan just discovered. An aircraft whose development was driven by military sanctions from the US and Europe is now derailed by military sanctions. This leaves the Pakistani Air Force dependent on an alternative from… America. Meanwhile, the Chinese are left with no export launch customer for a plane they may now have to reluctantly buy themselves, instead of the favoured and more capable J-10.
Somewhere in Delhi, champagne is pouring – but first, a bit of background.â€

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Postby Naidu » 21 Feb 2008 02:42

Johann wrote:Who said that the PA was serious about eliminating Al Qaeda or Taliban?


I misunderstood what you were saying then. If, as you clarify, the PA is going to just create more point-defence forts/bases instead of venturing out on area domination patrols, etc., then that is a more-of-the-same campaign. It will just serve to deny domination of these areas to the Pakiban. But should one or two of these encampments get rolled over by the Pakiban, then the PA will be in serious trouble. I don't think they've even attempted anything like this yet. (Plenty of this against the FC/paramilitaries, but none yet against PA encampments.)

The PA's main interest right now seems to be to keep IFOR/NATO's LoCs open for supplies into A'stan. They wouldn't want see that particular golden goose die prematurely.

Thanks for your insight.

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Postby Johann » 22 Feb 2008 08:24

Naidu,

FC positions that have been over-run in combat have generally been of platoon, or reinforced platoon strength.

PA cantonments or camps in Pakiban infested areas on the other hand are usually of battalion or brigade size. Kohat for example has been harassed with hit-and-run rocket and mortar fire. Disruptive, but generally not lethal.

It is the classic problem when you adopt a largely static defence - if you concentrate your forces, you abandon positions. If you attempt to secure everything, you thin out your forces dangerously.

The troop reinforcements make a static defence of population centres and main transportation routes against the Pakiban considerably more viable.

What will this do?

It means that the PA is freer to conduct punitive actions against the Pakiban when it feels they are getting a bit too upitty, or raid AQ or Pakiban camps when US pressure compels them without fearing that the Pakiban response might in fact collapse the Pakistani in the area.

Singha
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Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2008 08:59

the FC from looks of it consists of middle aged or green types, left to their own to scrounge for food, without proper cold weather gear and 10 rounds of ammo each. no wonder they broke and vanished into the bush when confronted by heavily armed talibs with jeeps, RPGs and 4x4s.

to all intents all the paki paramils are combat ineffective against tribal forces only the PA can seek out contests with tribal formations and hope to survive.

Rudranathh
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Postby Rudranathh » 22 Feb 2008 10:02

Singha wrote:the FC from looks of it consists of middle aged or green types, left to their own to scrounge for food, without proper cold weather gear and 10 rounds of ammo each. no wonder they broke and vanished into the bush when confronted by heavily armed talibs with jeeps, RPGs and 4x4s.

to all intents all the paki paramils are combat ineffective against tribal forces only the PA can seek out contests with tribal formations and hope to survive.

Only 20 talibans are needed to catch 300 Pakistan army soldiers.

Atleast the FC scamper away at the first sighting of the taliban rather than surrender to the taliban like the PA.

1 FC = 300 PA.

Schär

Postby Schär » 25 Feb 2008 01:40

hahhaha what a BUllshit only 20 Taliban needed to catch 300 FC that is all Propaganda..that Pakistan do there..they want show "Look we figth against taliban..>Plz give us more High-Tech weapons"..hahahhah

shetty
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Postby shetty » 27 Feb 2008 19:51


sunilUpa
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Postby sunilUpa » 29 Feb 2008 06:56

Latest AW&ST has an article on FC-1.
Highlights:
The current model doesn't have surface attack capability. According to Li Pei (MD Catic) incorporating surface attack in the first production model involves too much effort. China will decide whether it will purchase the fighter in next 2 years. Stealth may be introduced by modification to Nose, Cockpit and inlet. Stealth (Radar signal reduction as per Pei) effort will involve new material and no changes to airframe. Currently 2 radars are available from China.

Naidu
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Postby Naidu » 02 Mar 2008 04:48

U.S. Plan Widens Role in Training Pakistani Forces (NY Times)

WASHINGTON — The United States military is developing a plan to send about 100 American trainers to work with a Pakistani paramilitary force that is the vanguard in the fight against Al Qaeda and other extremist groups in Pakistan’s restive tribal areas, American military officials said.

Pakistan has ruled out allowing American combat troops to fight Qaeda and Taliban militants in the tribal areas. But Pakistani leaders have privately indicated that they would welcome additional American trainers to help teach new skills to Pakistani soldiers whose army was tailored not for counterinsurgency but to fight a conventional land war against India.


[quote]United States trainers initially would be restricted to training compounds, but with Pakistani consent could eventually accompany Pakistani troops on missions “to the point of contactâ€

arun
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Postby arun » 02 Mar 2008 09:50

X Post.

Never mind equal-equal with India, it’s now equal-equal with the US:

Sunday, March 2, 2008

Change in US policy

….. According to the existing arrangements, the US pays Pakistan $ 650 per soldier per month whereas it spends $ 80,000 per soldier per month in Afghanistan and $ 100,000 per soldier per month in Iraq. Not only the allocation for Pakistani soldiers, for keeping up it efforts in the war against terrorism, is far lower than what is allocated for other contributors, especially the American soldiers, but also one finds extremely slow reimbursement of bills as far as Pakistan is concerned. …….


Anyway, Pakistan has successfully bilked the Coalition Support Fund as these articles, posted earlier on BR show :

Washington Post, February 21, 2008 :

U.S. Payments To Pakistan Face New Scrutiny

Guardian, February 27, 2008 :

Up to 70% of US aid to Pakistan 'misspent'

The consequences are going to be faced by India for a generation :x :

Pak pips India in arms-deal race
2 Oct 2007, 0000 hrs IST , Chidanand Rajghatta & Rajat Pandit , TNN

SMS NEWS to 58888 for latest updates

WASHINGTON/NEW DELHI: Pakistan, a country about a sixth of India in size, population, economy and several other metrics, has for the first time outstripped India in purchasing military hardware and software, notching up arms deals worth $5.1 billion in 2006, as compared to $3.5 billion by India, to be ranked the world’s largest arms shopper, according to a Congressional study released Monday. ……….

TOI


The staggering scale of the US rearmament of Pakistan is well put in perspective by the CRS Report, updated January 28, 2008, titled “ U.S. Arms Sales to Pakistanâ€


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