Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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manum
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by manum »

arun wrote:Michael Krepon at Arms Control Wonk:
Pakistan’s Nuclear Requirements

By krepon | 10 May 2011 | 32 Comments

Why is Pakistan building so many nuclear weapons and blocking the start of fissile material cutoff negotiations? There are many reasons. One is that Pakistani military officers who establish nuclear requirements read what Indians have to say. They have read Kautilya, the Indian version of Machiavelli, who wrote Arthasastra around 300 BCE. Great shoebox quotes: “Agreements of peace shall be made with equal and superior kings; an inferior king shall be attacked.” And “Whoever goes to wage war with a superior king will be reduced to the same condition as that of a foot soldier opposing an elephant.” …………………………..

ACW
Its an extraordinary article and comment section has exemplary form of discussions...one of quote in comment section is
from Vipin Narang at MIT, who is doing some of the best work on nuclear-related issues on the subcontinent:

I would only add one wrinkle, in the context of ‘proactive strategy options’: in my view, the expansion of Pakistan’s strategic nuclear assets is primarily aimed at backstopping their theater nuclear use options by establishing escalation dominance at every rung. That is, in a ‘proactive strategy options’ world, Pakistan’s recent tests of Hatf IX, Raad, Babur etc suggest that Pakistan is getting increasingly serious about—and capable of—theater use against Indian conventional forces. Originally it seemed as if Pakistan’s nuclear planners believed that nuclear use on Indian forces on Pakistani soil would in itself be a war-terminating event since they believed India would have little justification for strategic retaliation against e.g. Rawalpindi in that scenario. But that entails Pakistan betting on Indian restraint. The only way to ensure that it is indeed war terminating is to have escalation dominance up through the highest rungs of a countervalue exchange to deter an Indian counterstrike. So, in my reading, the expansion of Pakistan’s strategic nuclear arsenal is primarily designed to make its threat of limited nuclear use against ‘proactive strategy options’ credible—it’s the only way nuclear use doesn’t result in mutual suicide. That’s my attempt to make sense of Pakistan’s nuclear behavior.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ actually, that seems to make sense, given their predeliction for escalation for show and bailout by friends... but this is absolute folly to think that you can control nuclear escalation and still come out of it smiling after limited use...
this seems analogous to the deployment of cruise missiles and tactical nukes in europe by the US in the 1980's - which was a highly de-stabilising act
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by satya »

Nightwatch's Brief on TSPA
One Asia Times on Line analyst provided a reminder last week that Chief of Army Staff General Kayani was the head of the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate at the time bin Laden arrived in Abbottabad, six or, possibly. seven years ago. Musharraf was the Chief of the Army Staff and the leader of Pakistan by dint of his 1999 illegal overthrow of elected government. Kayani was his hand-picked successor as Chief of Army Staff.


Official remarks in parliamentary closed sessions last week that lament an intelligence failure leave unclear to what failure they refer. The implication is that it is not the presence of bin Laden but rather the failure to anticipate and detect the US raid against Abbottabad.


Pakistani officials are now blaming the US, according to a 15 May report in the Washington Post, for the ruin of the Army and the country. This is venting because the dominant culprit in ruining the country is the Army.


Under Musharraf, the economy declined. The number of madrasahs increased exponentially under Musharraf's regime, just as they did under Martial Law Administrator General Zia ul Haq. The Army made political deals with the Islamists against the civilian parties.
The Pakistan Army was unprepared for war and was unable to complete its preparations for war with India in 2001 and 2002. It remains unable to complete its mobilization and accomplish its readiness doctrine.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by manum »

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ actually, that seems to make sense, given their predeliction for escalation for show and bailout by friends... but this is absolute folly to think that you can control nuclear escalation and still come out of it smiling after limited use...
this seems analogous to the deployment of cruise missiles and tactical nukes in europe by the US in the 1980's - which was a highly de-stabilising act
Ya in one of the comment as I remember, it said, cold start doctrine is still a worry because it talks about limited capture of pakistan territory and use it as bait to get the wanted from Pakistan...so they opted to create theatrical response through low yield weapons like NASR and RAAD and make it illogical (cant find the right word) for India to move ahead or even stay there...since they will explode the weapons in their own territory...it becomes more nonsensical for India to retaliate in a similar manner...

But as much I remember USA has missiles deployed in Netherlands...
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Lalmohan »

the US had cruise missiles and warheads in the UK and in Germany
i think as part of the reduction treaties they withdrew them... but can't remember
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by manum »

Lalmohan wrote:the US had cruise missiles and warheads in the UK and in Germany
i think as part of the reduction treaties they withdrew them... but can't remember
http://euobserver.com/?aid=31381
EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Turkey have US nuclear weapons situated on their soil, the WikiLeaks whistleblower files have revealed.

The four countries, along with Italy, had long been suspected of being home to a collection of American nuclear armaments, but neither the states nor Nato had ever officially confirmed or denied their presence.

For the first time, the confidential files released on Sunday evening (28 November) have acknowledged what was until now only conjecture, upending decades of careful diplomatic ambiguity.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Luxtor »

^^^

Don't try to make sense of puki logic, otherwise you will go insane. With each their war provocations with India they didn't have an escalation strategy, neither did they have an ultimate goal strategy; they did not have an exit strategy. Their Kargil folly is a perfect example of this. They just thought about capturing the peaks of those mountains and figured that India would just send in foot soldiers from below (which we did at first unfortunately) to dislodge them and they would just shoot them down, massacring them and India then would be discouraged and plead for mercy or would quietly hush up the intrusion and allow the puks to keep those territories. They probably never even once thought about India using heavy artillery or air power with PGMs etc. with a sustained campaign. They wouldn't have a clue what to do when India reacted the way it did. Boy, how I would like to sit in the back of the class rooms of their war colleges and their strategy planning conference rooms and watch and listen to their stupidity at work.

Just look at the Osama bin Laden affair; what country or people in their right mind would harbor that wholesome fellow? But the pukis did, even with them being so "close" the Americans in their "war-on-terror" and in previous decades with their geo-political games. But you know what, maybe the pukis are smarter then the rest of the world because the Americans are already talking about sitting down with the pukis once more (for the 10 millionth time) and asking them if they are really with them or not in the "war-on-terror" and would probably believe the puki claim that they had no clue that OBL was living near their capital, in a military town, right next to an army establishment in a much larger than usual house for the area with high walls with barbed wire on top. Yea that is very believable. You know what; the pukis will once again make chumps of the Americans. More F-16s, more AMRAAMS, more Cobra gunships, more firefinder radars will help the pukis cooperate with the Americans better.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by manum »

I think Pakistan needs a war with India, Guess it'll solve all its problems it can not solve itself.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Luxtor »

^^^

At this point in time and their history, a war with India could only help further to destroy pukistan more than anything else. The risk is ofcourse, from our perspective, is that they'll try to take India with them to hell. The pukis are really crazy enough to do something like that. They are a doomsday culture and they don't care. H&D is all worth losing their everything. But always they paint themselves into a corner with their crazy schemes and try to get others to bail them out. But with nukes now they might think that the only way out is to nuke India on a massive scale. India needs to be prepared for this puki insanity. I'm glad we are working on our ABM systems deligently. Can't wait to have a full scale and fully working ABM system in place over India to make the puki nuke threat impotent and obsolete.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Lalmohan »

puquis dont want a full war with india, they already know that that is a bridge too far
what they want is another kargil or sub-kargil type situation which they can stage manage - internally and externally but with the common objective of prolonging the fauji-hukum over the mango abduls
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by skher »

Luxtor wrote: ...
But with nukes now they might think that the only way out is to nuke India on a massive scale. India needs to be prepared for this puki insanity. I'm glad we are working on our ABM systems deligently. Can't wait to have a full scale and fully working ABM system in place over India to make the puki nuke threat impotent and obsolete.
Pakistan’s Nuclear Surge

Image

Image
“The buildup is remarkable,” says Paul Brannan of the Institute for Science and International Security. “And that nobody in the U.S. or in the Pakistani government says anything about this—especially in this day and age—is perplexing.”

Unlike Iran, which has yet to produce highly enriched uranium, or North Korea, which has produced plutonium but still lacks any real weapons capability, Pakistan is significantly ramping up its nuclear-weapons program. Eric Edelman, undersecretary of defense in the George W. Bush administration, puts it bluntly: “You’re talking about Pakistan even potentially passing France at some point. That’s extraordinary.”
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by skher »

Lalmohan wrote: puquis dont want a full war with india, they already know that that is a bridge too far
what they want is another kargil or sub-kargil type situation which they can stage manage - internally and externally but with the common objective of prolonging the fauji-hukum over the mango abduls
War is too dirty for Pakistan.Hence, such endeavors are always to be outsourced for a profit and claimed as own for reputation. Therefore, China and America have been allowed rental facilities (with full atteched radar switch off capabilities) for their respective wars with their respective enemies in neighbouring areas.

Meanwhile, a civilian government must be put in place to ensure some economic backup and for apologizing five times a day for violation of sovereignty and other such trifling PR issues with concerned parties.
According to Lahori logic (QEDism), a country that has already destroyed itself can never be destroyed more efficiently by anyone else (presumably Indian Army). It can only take everyone else down with it if such a misadventure takes place.
Afghanistan is the historical graveyard of all nations and hence is vital for this doomsday plan to remain credible to the contemporary world.

The aforementioned strategy is very beneficial to Pakistan's Army which effectively does nothing but achieves everything.Namely:-

[a] Financial resources for a nuclear stockpile and the concerned technology updates.All paid for.
The very best equipment and training - not for own use against India - but for Honour & Display and subcontracting of pious mercenaries from time to time for gentle reminders.
[c]Not a dime to be paid for infrastructure development done by sponsors of strategic routes like Karakoram Highway.
[d] Respect from the highest landlord controlling Mecca:- Saudi Arabia. Free oil, free education and employment guarantee from His Royal Highness and his coterie in the OPEC/GCC/OIC.

The only hiccup is if somehow the Indian bureaucracy is galvanized to work most efficiently against Pakistan and affect a swift Israeli-style land reorganization. Past record tells Pakistani strategists otherwise...even an attack on the Indian Parliament did not result in such a swift joint Air Force-Army partitioning strike.
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Post by P Chitkara »

Is there any info on the degree of networking within and across the puke army and fizzle ya?

Disruption of whatever networking is there within and between them must be part of our battle plans as well.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by nits »

Considering above Pak has more Nuke then UK, Israel, North Korea, China and India individually possess... thats insane... They just need to devlope 100 odd more and will be in competition with Uncle... :lol:

Seems this theory of Islamic bomb is gaining more heat...
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Lalmohan »

i cant believe that china only has 40
prithvi

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by prithvi »

Lalmohan wrote:i cant believe that china only has 40
yaa thats a typo.. China definitely has far more ...
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by abhishek-nayak »

Lalmohan wrote:i cant believe that china only has 40
HAHA...china has more than 240

china is the baap of nuclear proliferation
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Samay »

from ToI
"They are following the Chinese model of having low-yield nuclear weapons. Pakistan believes these weapons will provide it a flexible response in case of an escalation with India and allow it to dominate," says Pradhan.

Officials and experts believe Pakistan will use it only in the case of any incursion made by Indian forces into Pakistani territory or what is known as India's cold start doctrine. In the event of another Mumbai-like terrorist attack, there is going to be real pressure on India to mount such an incursion and strike some of the terror camps.

Indian officials said the manner in which Pakistan has carried out work on the fourth reactor, of which there was no trace as late as 2009, suggest a constant supply or uranium and that this could only have been made possible by China. "The cost involved is too high and then, of course, the amount of uranium required. It's too much for Pakistan to achieve without support from China," said a senior government official.
So the chinese are essentially doing their war planning ?
Aren't they supporting the terrorist state to go for any ' possible' suicide mission?
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Airpower Imbalance: Nuclear Pakistan’s Achilles’ Heel
Air Commodore Tariq Mahmud Ashraf, PakistAn Air Force (retired)

Air & Space Power Journal, Fall2008, Vol. 22 Issue 3, p13-17

The overt nuclearization of India and Pakistan in May 1998 drastically altered the military landscape of South asia. Military planners on both sides now had to grapple with the additional strategic doctrinal dilemmas and considerations of deterrence, first use of nuclear weapons, counterforce versus countervalue targeting, nuclear thresholds, and so forth.

Cconventional imbalance in the military domain has been a constant, defining characteristic of South asian defence dynamics ever since India and Pakistan achieved independence in 1947. Understandably, the greater size, population,
and resources of india have enabled its military to stay ahead in conventional might, with Pakistan continuing to play the “catchup” game. Needless to say, apart from the resources available to them, the military potential of both countries has also been shaped significantly by what their respective superpower allies or other friendly countries have been willing to provide them in terms of military wherewithal.

One irrefutable legacy that the Indian and Pakistani militaries retained from the British colonials was their rigid adherence to and unshakeable belief in the somewhat outdated tenets of continental warfare. This led both countries to adopt army-centric military doctrines and resulted in the diversion of more resources towards their respective armies, to
the neglect of their navies and air forces. This proved truer in the case of Pakistan, where the army has ruled the country for almost half of its total existence.

The chronic inferiority in the conventional military realm that Pakistan has continued to face led its army to a doctrine of “Strategic Defence and Tactical offence.” although Pakistan undoubtedly has remained militarily inferior to India, one must realize that Indian conventional military superiority has never reached a stage where one would categorize it as having
a “decisive edge” over the Pakistani military. The truth of the indecisive nature of this conventional military imbalance was borne out by the indecisive stalemates that occurred during the wars of 1948 and 1965. [1]

The situation that I have depicted in the preceding paragraphs remained valid until the conduct of nuclear tests by india and Pakistan in May 1998, an epochal event that drastically altered the South asian military scene. First of all, one needs to understand the essential motivation that drove Pakistan and India to go nuclear. In my reckoning, Pakistan’s basic objective in its quest to acquire nuclear military capability has always been the desire to be able to counter India’s conventional superiority. India’s motivation involved, among other things, its desire to emerge as a regional/global power, the need to balance China, and, of course, the wish to gain a decisive military advantage over Pakistan, which India had
failed to achieve in the conventional realm. From this it flows that although Pakistan has designed its nuclear arsenal primarily to deter the launching of a conventional attack by India, India is likely to employ nuclear weapons for the projection of political power and to obviate the chances of any other country’s employing nuclear weapons against it. Elaborating on Pakistan’s nuclear posture, two commentators write that “nuclear weapons are perceived in Pakistan as an instrument to countervail a manifest conventional inferiority.” Explaining further, they describe how the Pakistani nuclear
posture is strikingly similar to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) doctrine of extended deterrence during the Cold War. This doctrine also made constant reference to the possible use of nuclear weapons to countervail conventional inferiority vis-à-vis the Warsaw Pact military forces; furthermore, it refused to issue any no-first-use declaration. In fact, NATO has not issued any such declaration to this day and remains ambiguous on this matter, just as Pakistan has opted to do [2].

In any military conflict between two nuclear armed adversaries such as India and Pakistan, one could safely conclude that the chances are much higher of the conventionally weaker country (Pakistan) opting to use nuclear weapons first. This is precisely why India has disavowed first use in its draft nuclear doctrine; Pakistan, however, continues to maintain a
semblance of ambiguity regarding its first-use posture while simultaneously continuing to imply that such employment remains a possibility.

Since any future South Asian conflict would start in the conventional realm before escalating to nuclear dimensions, and because Pakistan is the more likely of the two adversaries to opt for the first use of nuclear weapons, it is vital for us to study the possible course of events that could make Pakistan move up the conflict-escalation ladder by opting to go nuclear. In my opinion, one could better describe this decision point—commonly referred to as the “nuclear threshold”—as the “nuclear-escalation threshold.”

Because of Pakistan’s continuing nuclear ambiguity, we have heard little discussion of such key issues as what its nuclear-escalation threshold actually means. One significant exception to the silence of the Pakistani leadership on this matter occurred when a group of Italian journalists interviewed Lt Gen Khalid Kidwai, the director general of Pakistan’s Strategic
Plans Division. in a marked departure from earlier statements and interviews, which ignored this vital subject, General Kidwai outlined the limits of Pakistan’s nuclear-escalation threshold:

"It is well known that Pakistan does not have a “no First use Policy.” Pakistani nuclear weapons will be used, according to Gen. Kidwai, only “if the very existence of Pakistan as a state is at stake.” This has been detailed by Gen. Kidwai as follows:

“Nuclear weapons are aimed solely at India. In case that deterrence fails, they will be used if

a. India attacks Pakistan and conquers a large part of its territory (space threshold)

b. India destroys a large part either of its land or air forces (military threshold)

c. India proceeds to the economic strangling of Pakistan (economic strangling)

d. India pushes Pakistan into political destabilization or creates a large scale internal subversion in Pakistan (domestic destabilization)” [3] "


Since domestic destabilization and economic strangulation are not relevant to the subject of this discussion, I will focus on the space and military thresholds. regarding the territorial or space threshold, I have previously written the following:

"In conventional terms, the occurrence of any of the following events could warrant Pakistan resorting to the nuclear option:

Penetration of indian forces beyond a certain defined line or crossing of a river.

Imminent capture of an important Pakistani city like Lahore or Sialkot. . . .

Indian crossing of line of control . . . to a level that it threatens Pakistan’s control over Azad Kashmir. [4]"

Although the denial of Pakistani territory to the Indian military would jointly fall into the domain of the Pakistan army and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), the former would bear primary responsibility for it, with the latter operating essentially in a supportive role.

At this stage, we would do well to conduct a brief comparative overview of the respective armies and air forces of India and Pakistan since these two military arms would play a major role in determining the outcome of any conventional war between those countries. Regarding the two armies, the Indian Army has a better-than two-to-one advantage in personnel,
armour, and artillery. It has always been an accepted fact amongst military strategists and practitioners that in order to ensure success, a land force on the offensive must have a three-to-one advantage in numbers over the defending force since the latter operates from well-dug-in and reinforced positions generally located in terrain very familiar to its
personnel. The Indian Army does not by itself possess this decisive advantage over the Pakistan Army. If it were to operate jointly with the might of the Indian Air Force (IAF), however, the balance does definitely tilt in favour of the Indians.

Salient comparative aspects of the IAF and PAF show that the former enjoys almost a 2.6:1 advantage in combat aircraft, purely in numerical terms (see table). [5] However, the IAF’s exclusive possession of beyond visual range (BVR) weapons
and air-to-air refuelling capability, as well as superiority in unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), further accentuates its advantage. This edge would increase further once the IAF inducts the Phalcon airborne early warning and
control (AEW&C) platforms that it has contracted to acquire from Israel. The PAF has

------------------------------------------------
Table: Comparison of IAF and PAF combat assets and potential

Capability IAF PAF Analysis

Manpower 170,000 45,000 3.78: 1

Combat aircraft 852 331 2.57: 1

Transport aircraft 288 27 10.59: 1

Air-to-air
refueling Yes No IAF enjoys exclusiveness

BVR air-to-air
missiles Yes No IAF enjoys exclusiveness

UAV Yes Yes IAF enjoys superiority

High-tech
combat aircraft 132 32 4.1: 1

------------------------------------------------

been able to induct a few UAVs but has still not finalized any plans for the induction of an AEW platform despite having evaluated the Swedish Erieye system. If one also factors into the equation the number of combat aircraft
operated by the opposing navies, the disparity increases even further.

The IAF’s technological edge is also evidenced by the disproportionately large number of high-technology combat aircraft that it possesses vis-à-vis the PAF [6]. This qualitative advantage has shifted to the IAF because of its unrestricted access to Russian and Israeli technology while Pakistan has been denied any additional aviation assets other than a handful of
upgraded F-16 aircraft from the United States. China, Pakistan’s main provider of military aircraft, does not currently produce any combat aircraft comparable to the Western high-technology variety. Although this ratio might improve slightly after the initially ordered batch of 24 F-16 C/D aircraft enters service (Pakistan has taken delivery of the first two
aircraft), the IAF will again gain the edge with the induction of an additional 126 advanced combat aircraft that it is in the process of acquiring from the West. The most significant disparity lies in the number of high-technology combat platforms that the two air forces possess. Although the IAF has a 2.6:1 advantage in overall numbers, its advantage in high-tech aircraft exceeds a factor of 4.1:1, which will probably continue to grow as more Su-30 MKi aircraft and the additional 126 advanced combat aircraft join the IAF and enter operational service.

The IAF has a large fleet of transport aircraft that bestows significant military-airlift capability. Its advantage of over 10:1 in this area gives the IAF a strategic level of airlift capability, but one could best describe the PAF as having only modest airlift potential. viewed from the perspective of the IAF’s substantially greater pool of trained manpower, India’s enormous
air-transport potential adds significantly to the flexibility of operational mobility in terms of rapid deployment and redeployment.

The IAF possesses more than twice as many total aircraft as the PAF, as well as a 3.78:1 advantage in manpower. The freedom of being able to deploy operational assets at a greater number of operating locations is an obvious
corollary of this edge. Having illustrated the gross imbalance that exists between the two air forces, i now move on to the implications that imbalance would have in any future conventional war between India and Pakistan.

To a great extent, modern land warfare depends upon establishing a favourable air situation over the battlefield, which entails the friendly air force’s fully supporting its own army while simultaneously preventing the adversary air force from interfering with its operations. The IAF-versus-PAF comparison indicates that the IAF is much more capable of
achieving a favourable air situation over the area of the land battle, so it can contribute significantly to the success of an Indian land offensive. Moreover, the strong IAF, with its exclusive access to AEW aircraft and BVR missiles, could neutralize the PAF by mounting a concerted counterair-operations campaign against the latter. [7] Adequate neutralization of the PAF
would absolutely open the path to an Indian victory on the ground, and the offensive formations of the Indian army would be virtually unstoppable. This could well create a state of affairs, mentioned above, in which, as General Kidwai put it, “the very existence of Pakistan as a state is at stake.”

An analysis of the comparative strengths of the Indian and Pakistani militaries clearly identifies the air force as the weakest link in Pakistan’s military—especially when compared directly with the much more powerful and better equipped IAF. One must not underestimate the significance of this weakest link since the destruction of the PAF emerges as the quickest way to make Pakistan contemplate the undesirable escalatory step of turning a conventional, limited war into a nuclear holocaust.

This conclusion has lessons not only for Pakistan’s government but also for the major global powers. The Pakistani government must embark on a crash program to suitably reequip its air force, but the major global powers must also
understand that enhancing the level of stability in South Asia requires that Pakistan’s nuclear-escalation threshold be raised and not allowed to drop any further. As i have indicated, the means for doing so lie in strengthening this weakest link in Pakistan’s military chain.

As the Kargil conflict of 1999 demonstrated, the advent of nuclear weapons in South Asia has not rendered limited conventional wars in the region impossible. In fact, as Michael Krepon argues in his discussion of the stability-instability
paradox, small-scale, limited conventional conflicts might even become more frequent in South Asia. [8] All international and
regional measures aimed at promoting and achieving nuclear stability in South Asia must focus on ensuring that the nuclear-escalation threshold of the militarily weaker country—Pakistan—does not drop. Consequently, the global community must remain alert to any weaknesses emerging in Pakistan’s conventional military wherewithal vis-à-vis India and address
these immediately lest a limited conventional conflict in South asia turn into a nuclear holocaust with terrifying consequences, not only for the region but also for the entire world.

In this context, one must concentrate specifically on the serious imbalance between the air forces of the two countries since the weak air force currently fielded by Pakistan might well prove to be its achilles’ heel by becoming the prime reason for escalating a limited conflict to the nuclear dimension. Paradoxically, therefore, it appears to be in India’s national
interest to downplay the increasing strength and potential of its air force so as to preclude a further lowering of Pakistan’s perceived nuclear-escalation threshold.

Notes

1. I have intentionally not included the 1971 war here since it was more of a civil war for the Pakistani military.
although it did result in the fall of east Pakistan, the situation on the western borders at the end of the war was
once again a stalemate, with neither side making significant gains.

2. Paolo cotta-ramusino and Maurizio Martellini, “Nuclear Safety, Nuclear Stability and Nuclear Strategy in
Pakistan” (como, italy: landau network-centro volta, 21 January 2002), [6], [6]n11, http://www.mi.infn.it/~landnet/
Doc/pakistan.pdf.

3. ibid., [5]. Readers should note that General Kidwai mentions the destruction of Pakistan’s army and air force
but makes no mention of Pakistan’s navy.

4. Air commodore Tariq Mahmud Ashraf, Aerospace Power: The Emerging Strategic Dimension (Peshawar, Pakistan:
Pakistan air Force Book club, 2002), 152, http://www.pakdef.info/aeropowerfinal.pdf.

5. In terms of pure numbers, the advantage that the IAF has enjoyed over the PAF has gradually been narrowing.
according to "The Story of the Pakistan Air Force: A Saga of Courage and Honour" (Islamabad, Pakistan: Shaheen
Foundation, 2000), 469, the IAF enjoyed an almost five-to-one superiority in strength over the PAF during the
1971 war, with the PAF having only 22 percent of the IAF’s strength.

6. The combat aircraft included in the category of high-tech aircraft include the IAF’s Su-30, Mirage 2000 and MiG-29, while the only PAF platform that merits inclusion in this category is the F-16. See Anthony H. Cordesman and Martin Kleiber, “The Asian Conventional Military Balance in 2006: The South Asian Military Balance,” Working draft (Washington, DC.: Centre for Strategic and International Studies, 26 June 2006), http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/060 ... ance_south
.pdf; and Rodney W. Jones, Conventional Military Imbalance and Strategic Stability in South Asia, SASSU [South Asian
Strategic Stability unit], research Paper no. 1 (United Kingdom: University of Bradford, Department of Peace Studies,
March 2005), 15, 29–33, http://www.policyarchitects.org/pdf/con ... RJones.pdf

7. The IAF would retain exclusive possession of AEW capabilities until the PAF inducts a similar platform. However,
the IAF’s advantage in Bvr missiles might not remain once the PaF inducts the additional batch of 24
F-16 C/D aircraft since they are reportedly capable of using advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles (included
in the total delivered package).

8. Michael Krepon, “The Stability-instability Paradox, Misperception, and Escalation Control in South Asia,” in
Escalation Control and the Nuclear Option in South Asia, ed. Michael Krepon, Rodney W. Jones, and Ziad Haider
(Washington, Dc: Henry l. Stimson center, November 2004), 1–24, http://www.stimson.org/pub.cfm?iD=191.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by MN Kumar »

Pakistan to get 50 fighter jets from China
ISLAMABAD: China will hand over 50 multi-role combat aircraft to Pakistan, it was reported here Thursday.

Pakistan will get the 50 JF-17 Thunder aircraft "in weeks", Dawn quoted an official as saying in Beijing where Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani is on a four-day trip that takes places shortly after Osama bin Laden was killed by US commandos in Abbottabad on May 2.

The official said Pakistan and China were jointly producing the JF-17 aircraft, but the 50 fighter jets would have more sophisticated avionics.

He said the aircraft would be fully funded by China and it would help bolster Pakistan's defence and add to the tactical capability of the Pakistan Air Force.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Nihat »

Keeping aside my personal hatred against Pakistan, I wonder what PAF hopes to accomplish with such large scale inductions of "inferior tech." jets, JF-17 has never even been considered for induction by PLAAF and yet they are supposed to take on an IAF which consists of upgraded Mirage 2000/ Mig - 29, Su-30 MKI , EF/Rafale and PAKFA.

What are PAF decision makers thinking while ordering 250 JF-17, are they not in the least concerned that these jets could go down like flies in the event and Air war with IAF takes place?
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by P Chitkara »

He said the aircraft would be fully funded by China and it would help bolster Pakistan's defence and add to the tactical capability of the Pakistan Air Force.
Beggars are not choosers. They are getting it for free..they are just reaffirming their claim to the spot of #1 international bhikari. :lol:
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Singha »

I wonder why Chengdu would have 50 readymade JF17 in bubble wrap and ready for delivery. fighters are produced in response to orders unlike consumer items like condoms or KY.

either the production started long ago and its ready (tough to imagine inducting 50 planes together) or they will sign the deal in weeks and he was misquoted by the PDM.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Your second assertion is more likely the case. From what I had gathered from internet chatter on paki boards, the second production run of bandar was stuck because of money issues and China had been not forthcoming on the financing bit. The above news confirms that the issue seems to have been resolved and hence, the production can start.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by suryag »

Dont know which district in Gilgit Baltistan the pigs gave up for the 50 bandars. Hope they have the same problem as the dongdong railway locomotives
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Lalmohan »

the air commodore is basically saying - give us more weapons, or we'll start using the ones we have...
like the pistol wielding robber holding up the gun store and demanding a semi automatic...
very logical onlee!
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:I wonder why Chengdu would have 50 readymade JF17 in bubble wrap and ready for delivery. fighters are produced in response to orders unlike consumer items like condoms or KY.

either the production started long ago and its ready (tough to imagine inducting 50 planes together) or they will sign the deal in weeks and he was misquoted by the PDM.
I don't believe the news item.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by chackojoseph »

Once upon a time they sold radarless planes. Now engineless planes?
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by manum »

now I know why zardari went to russia...to buy engines for bunder
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Singha »

I think its just the 2nd tranche of 50; part of the planned 150. ofcourse this 50 will likely be delivered over 3-4 yrs ...
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by shiv »

I was under the impression that China has outsourced the main manufacturing of Bundaar to Paagalstan and was only making some critical sub assemblies which were shipped top Pakistan for assembly. I was not aware of a full fledged Bundar assembly line in China. Contrary to early reports I don't think China intends to employ the Bundaar. I would be glad to have my qibla corrected if need b.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Singha »

I think you are right. its just that PRC is funding this 2nd lot of 50 as a subsidy to chengdu and russia(klimov).

> critical sub assemblies

probably chendgu supplies everything in SKD form and PAC kamra assembles it and does flight test of each
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Post by Sean Rowe »

China is helping TSP by sending a earth observation satellite
Last edited by Sean Rowe on 19 May 2011 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Rahul M »

Singha wrote:I wonder why Chengdu would have 50 readymade JF17 in bubble wrap and ready for delivery. fighters are produced in response to orders unlike consumer items like condoms or KY.

either the production started long ago and its ready (tough to imagine inducting 50 planes together) or they will sign the deal in weeks and he was misquoted by the PDM.
china doesn't have a production line of the jf17 in the first place.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Mahendra »

Sean Rowe wrote:China is helping TSP by sending a earth observation satellite
Wow! they can now find out where Zawahiri and Omar are without having to wait for Barak Obama to call them up and tell them that both are dead 4 hours after the event.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by ramana »

Nightwatch thinks these 50 planes are for Durand Line support. So its TSP using PRC to challenge massa. Take money and show umbrage.

All fallout of the Abbotabad Raid.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by RamaY »

^ That is a good development. Imagine pakis shooting down a couple of their national birds and sending them to PRC. The next coldwar will be fought in Pakistan.

It will open good opportunities for India, if properly used.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by rohitvats »

ramana, that is a long short.

nobody in tsp or tspa has the guts to take on unkil.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Anujan »

ramana wrote:Nightwatch thinks these 50 planes are for Durand Line support. So its TSP using PRC to challenge massa. Take money and show umbrage.

All fallout of the Abbotabad Raid.
China is *NOT* financing the bandaar. The money is probably coming from Unkil's CSF, the Pakis are keeping it hush-hush to prevent massa from going "Pakis taking our money which we borrowed from China and giving it back to China"
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by ramana »

rohitvats wrote:ramana, that is a long short.

nobody in tsp or tspa has the guts to take on unkil.

Be that may be, but having these bandars in the West Pakistan makes abduls think Fizzle ya is taking care of them after the sleeping on the job at Abbotabad.

Shouldnt they rename it as Maulanabad?
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