Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2011 16:46

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/world ... ssile.html

WASHINGTON — The United States has accused Pakistan of illegally modifying American-made missiles to expand its capability to strike land targets, a potential threat to India, according to senior administration and Congressional officials.

The charge, which set off a new outbreak of tensions between the United States and Pakistan, was made in an unpublicized diplomatic protest in late June to Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani and other top Pakistani officials.
..........
Over the years, the United States has provided a total of 165 Harpoon missiles to Pakistan, including 37 of the older-model weapons that were delivered from 1985 to 1988, said Charles Taylor, a spokesman for the Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 23 May 2011 16:57

Austin wrote:
parshuram wrote:Very Good question Austin Saar ..... and infact as face saver for US and to ease out tensions after Abottabad strike, what better opportunity for american to show there support to there major ally in war against terror
Well they have many in reserves and bone yard , they will just gift it to them as a mark of friendship for GWOT and chumma chumma bhai bhai to make for Abottabad.

Exactly .... wonder if they[Americans ] change their mind as now they knew Chinese engineers were indeed there where they house P3C Orions... else we might see foto of chinese made P3C soon..

BTW what a country ... you have l every body there afghans, Americans , Chinese ..... and common Pakistani dying serving these in either way

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 23 May 2011 18:25

ok now they will sing the same song.
as you can see we don't harbour terror. We are victims of terror. please give us XXX million in USD onlee.
as for P3C now that it is destroyed it will land up you know where ?
first their engineers tested the working model and now destroyed model and next a xerox copy with a indeginous J letter added

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 May 2011 20:51

A charred P-3C Orion of the Pakistan Navy...

More pictures here --> http://tribune.com.pk/story/173888/blas ... lmia-road/

This is what happens when you park valued assets so close to each other...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 May 2011 21:04

Rakesh wrote:A charred P-3C Orion of the Pakistan Navy...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/ ... afe877.jpg

Take a good look at this image ladies,

There are 5 propellers visible

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 May 2011 21:16

If those missiles + planes have been modified, has Uncle been looking the other way just as was done for the nukes? Pakis, for sure, have signed all those acronym-ed agreements.

This whole stuff is getting more and more interesting by the hour.

A new, free, e-book in the making Shiv?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 May 2011 23:47

From the Hindustan Times --> http://www.hindustantimes.com/Pakistan- ... 01142.aspx

Malik said he opted to hold a briefing at the CM house because there were fears that if it were held outside the base, another suicide attack could take place.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 May 2011 23:53

With Lt Gen Pasha stating that targets are already selected in India and rehearsals already conducted, I wouldn't be surprised if they used the attack on PNS Mehran as an excuse to launch a new attack against India. Pakistan's Interior Minister - Rehman Malik - has already said that the attack was done in coordination with outside forces.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 24 May 2011 00:03

Rahman Malik's Star Wars Talibs

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 24 May 2011 00:09

These statements from rehman malik are very much pakistani effort to create or rather use it as an oppurtunity to blame it on india . Not surprised by the timing as headlely testifying against ISI back in chicago

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 May 2011 00:17

Militants targeted Navy, not aircrafts: Naval Chief
http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=15979

Selected gems from the above link;

The chief of Pakistan Navy Admiral Nauman Bashir, rejecting the impression that terrorists wanted to cause material damage to Navy, has said that terrorists targeted the Naval forces.

DELUSION!

Nauman dismissed rumors of security breach. “This attack could not be termed as security lapse,” he stated.

Then what was it?

He expressed the confidence that the investigation would uncover the militants involved in the assault.

The only problem is they are ALL dead!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 May 2011 00:56

next: jee hard was on the facility and not the nukes. but, btw, we have secured all of them in safe places [can't bring the mountain to you though].

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 May 2011 01:21

shiv the 5th propeller looks a bit different

could it be a diff aircraft

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 May 2011 04:30

After all the collaboration between Pagalstan and China, the latter still has not provided Transfer of Technology on photoshopping. See Below...

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 24 May 2011 04:45

^^
Chinese are proper businessman.

They even promised the full ToT on Bunder but I don't see porkies doing anything more then creating few electronics and painting it with hospital green color (yuk).

They also did so called ToT on MBT 2000, which they sold as a single vendor to some south American country.

All these ToT programs for porkies are made for internal consumption.

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 24 May 2011 06:58

I think I have played this mission in Delta Force 1, Infiltrating an air base and taking out aircrafts and then successfully reaching back the extraction point...

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 May 2011 07:01

Najam Sethi on the PNS Mehran attack. Rips into the military's response both during and after the incident. At his acerbic best.

[youtube]tqwYAIohp-U#at=206[/youtube]

Excerpt:

Munib: Aapko maloom hai sawal kya kiya gaya wahaan ek. (Did you hear one of the questions posed there?)
NS: Kya? (What?)
Munib: Admiral sahab se poocha ki aap keh rahe hain ki jo aaye the wo bade well trained the, sharpshooters the. To phir kisi ne poocha, to aap apne log unke paas kab bhej rahe hain training ke liye? (Someone asked the Admiral - you're saying that the attackers were well trained. Were sharpshooters. So when are you sending your men to be trained by them?
NS: Waah. (Wonderful).

[youtube]Hhx-DH2zXgU&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
[youtube]naoW1f0u7CI&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Gets quite choked up, sentimental at it proceeds. Little sad really.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 May 2011 07:56

Confused state.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 May 2011 08:33

Rakesh wrote:After all the collaboration between Pagalstan and China, the latter still has not provided Transfer of Technology on photoshopping. See Below...

[*img]http://www.opinion-maker.org/wp-content ... ZDK-03.jpg[/img]

i doubt this junk could actually provide airborne early warning. like most other chipanda products this will jam @ critical time.

btw doesn' the porki naval base attack seem staged attempt to generate sympathy as unkil may block funds ? p3c orions could be halaaled as porkis may hope that unkil may reimburse them. here in amreeka everything comes with insurance !!! because however stupid and ill equiped a naval base might be a bunch of gunmen cant just enter a naval base and blow away aircrafts unless the navy wants it to be done.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 08:35

is that a chinese variant of the venerable An12 ?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 May 2011 08:44

Singha wrote:is that a chinese variant of the venerable An12 ?

yup . with an aew chapati on top of it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 08:48

if HAL were to propose a license build of the An12 and use that for IAFs medium transport and AEW needs today everyone incl the media , rakshaks would laugh them out.

but the chinese religiously seem to have licensed old soviet gear in the tu16, an12 et al and still use that as a mainstay for their forces without attracting the same criticism.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 24 May 2011 10:30

Wow, after one day of operation they only managed to kill few and rest were able to escape.

And that too in a major military installation (unlike a civilian installation like Hotels in Mumbai) when operation was conducted by their super elite marine commandos, SSG and blah blah.

I don't see any porki laughing now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 11:01

word on the street is 11 attackers escaped, a few were left behind to attain martydom. so not all were suicide types, the high value A-listers must have been in the escape party.

Navy installations to be relocated says Naval Chief
KARACHI - 23rd May 2011
By APP

Naval Chief, Admiral Noman Bashir said Monday that installations of Pakistan Navy were being relocated to a safer place away from residential areas.

“We are trying to relocate Naval Base and other vital installations away from residential areas”, he said while addressing a press conference to give a preliminary report about the special anti-terrorist operation.

He said the effective security of naval installations is becoming difficult due to crowded residential areas around the Mehran base.

When these installations were planned and built near Karsaz, they were away from the city, but with the fast growth of residential areas around the base, it has become in the centre.

He said that 11 Chinese and six American engineers, who were there at the time of attack, were rescued unhurt and shifted to a safer place.

Naval chief pointed out that the response time from Naval commandos was three minutes and they fought back, but the attackers were highly trained and had sophisticated weapons like RPG launchers.

About 15 attackers entered the base from the eastern side and attacked PC-3 Orion surveillance aircrafts with RPGs. He said ten Naval personnel were martyred including one officer and three firemen. Lieutinent Yasir was perhaps the first martyr who challenged the attackers. Meanwhile, three firemen who never cared for their lives rushed to save the burning aircraft, but became victims of the attackers, he added.

He said that two attackers blew themselves, while several were arrested and are now in the custody.

Admiral Bashir said that Naval commandos completed the entire operation with the back up support of Pakistan Army, Rangers and Police. Rangers and police were at the outer cordon.

Naval chief said that he remained in direct contact with the President, Prime Minister, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, Army and Airforce chiefs and other heads during the entire operation.

Responding to a question, he said five P-3C Orion aircraft, built in USA, were at the base and three of them are modified. Four more P-3C aircraft are currently being modified in USA, he added.

http://www.aaj.tv/2011/05/navy-insta...s-naval-chief/

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 May 2011 11:17

Singha wrote:word on the street is 11 attackers escaped, a few were left behind to attain martydom. so not all were suicide types, the high value A-listers must have been in the escape party.

Navy installations to be relocated says Naval Chief
KARACHI - 23rd May 2011
By APP

Naval Chief, Admiral Noman Bashir said Monday that installations of Pakistan Navy were being relocated to a safer place away from residential areas.

“We are trying to relocate Naval Base and other vital installations away from residential areas”, he said while addressing a press conference to give a preliminary report about the special anti-terrorist operation.

In one fell swoop, more prime land just became available for the crore commanders to grab.

Smart guys! Convert every adversity to opportunity

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2011 11:19

the shaheen, fauji and bahria foundations would already have teams onsite scoping things out.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 24 May 2011 11:24

There is no measure of how stupid porki awam can get and to what extent porki govt can go to fool them.

Initially reports said 10-15 militant entered using two ladders. Tahrik-e-Taliban guy said 15-20 people.

At the end of the operation when the porki army guys finished rounding up only four bodies that could be tagged as terrorist. Immediately Rehman changed his statement to 6 militant entered, 3 killed, one blew himself and 2 escaped. Certainly it will be hard to admit that 10-15 guys came in blew two of there most expensive planes, killed ten of there service men and 6 to 11 of them successfully escaped.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 24 May 2011 12:13

Today's TOI says the porkies plan acquiring 10 P3Cs. That is a substantial num considering the size of their coastline. How many will we eventually have including the p8s?

The destroyed baksheesh will be replaced by uncle..there should be little doubt on that.

On a serious note, it is matter of concern for us as well. What if the attack was on a facility storing nukes and a few of the jehadis escaped with some stuff?

Sean Rowe · Post by **Sean Rowe** » 24 May 2011 12:57

I have serious doubts whether Pakistan Army did it to get sympathy that Pakistan is a victim of terror

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 24 May 2011 13:31

I think you guys are right, something is fishy here. After all said and done this does look like a stage managed puki fake drama to garner sympathy from Uncle after the OBL embarrassment. A group of terrorists enter a navy base and blow up just two P3's while a couple of other P3's parked right next to them and totally untouched? I can imagine the ISI and puki navy instructions to the base personnel: "you idiots better blow up only the two P3's on the left ...if you even touch anything else, we'll ring your necks." Now we wait for the generous (gullible) Uncle to respond to the puki "misfortune". Come to think of it, three weeks from OBL incident is just about the right amount of time for the pukis to contemplate, plan and execute this stage show. It's almost like clock work. The pukis have done such things many times in the past also to show that they are victims of terror too.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 May 2011 13:33

P Chitkara wrote:On a serious note, it is matter of concern for us as well. What if the attack was on a facility storing nukes and a few of the jehadis escaped with some stuff?

Even if Jehadis stole the nuke they would be under many codes and safetly feature to arm the weapon , so merely stealing nukes would just help them extract PU/HEU that can be used to build dirty bombs or poision water supplies etc , extracting such things is not a trivial task.

Unless some one in GHQ conspires and provides them the codes and arming mechanism and trains them for it , that jehadis would find it really useful

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 24 May 2011 13:57

P Chitkara wrote:Today's TOI says the porkies plan acquiring 10 P3Cs. That is a substantial num considering the size of their coastline. How many will we eventually have including the p8s?

The destroyed baksheesh will be replaced by uncle..there should be little doubt on that.

On a serious note, it is matter of concern for us as well. What if the attack was on a facility storing nukes and a few of the jehadis escaped with some stuff?

Well that raised my suspicion that actually some of these aircrafts are indeed nuclear delivery platforms ....

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 24 May 2011 14:01

^^^

You think that Uncle would allow that? Is this the modifications to the P3's that they were talking about?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 May 2011 14:03

parshuram wrote:
P Chitkara wrote:Today's TOI says the porkies plan acquiring 10 P3Cs. That is a substantial num considering the size of their coastline. How many will we eventually have including the p8s?

The destroyed baksheesh will be replaced by uncle..there should be little doubt on that.

On a serious note, it is matter of concern for us as well. What if the attack was on a facility storing nukes and a few of the jehadis escaped with some stuff?
Well that raised my suspicion that actually some of these aircrafts are indeed nuclear delivery platforms ....

what is 'that' ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 14:05

P Chitkara wrote:
On a serious note, it is matter of concern for us as well. What if the attack was on a facility storing nukes and a few of the jehadis escaped with some stuff?

Why would that be a problem. I mean if jihadis stole nukes from Pakis how would that affect us? Could you please explain why those nukes in jihadi hands would be more of a problem for India than nukes in Paki hands.

Is it less of a concern if Pakis have those nukes with them. I really can't understand why Indians would think nukes are safer in Paki hands. If you were an American - I can understand that the world is a less safe place for Americans if jihadis get nukes as opposed to the whoring Pakis. For India, what difference does it make whether a Taliban.jihadi has nukes or the Pakis? Have the Pakis given a written undertaking that they will keep the nukes away from India. Friggin heck - Paki nukes are all aimed at India and we have even been threatened as recently as a week or two ago. What gives?

I am amazed at the fact that this has to be explained individually to 1 billion Indians.

Sean Rowe · Post by **Sean Rowe** » 24 May 2011 14:16

^^^
In fact it will bring more clarity and will end the need for India to deal with multiple Pakistans

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 24 May 2011 15:43

Luxtor wrote:^^^

You think that Uncle would allow that? Is this the modifications to the P3's that they were talking about?

The Harpoon missiles carried by P3Cs were modified to strike at land targets. Additionally, it is speculated that the P3C was also modified to carry the Babur which is nuke capable cruise missile. It is similar to the harpoon which is nuke nude though.

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 24 May 2011 16:29

shiv wrote:
P Chitkara wrote:
On a serious note, it is matter of concern for us as well. What if the attack was on a facility storing nukes and a few of the jehadis escaped with some stuff?

Why would that be a problem. I mean if jihadis stole nukes from Pakis how would that affect us? Could you please explain why those nukes in jihadi hands would be more of a problem for India than nukes in Paki hands.

Is it less of a concern if Pakis have those nukes with them. I really can't understand why Indians would think nukes are safer in Paki hands. If you were an American - I can understand that the world is a less safe place for Americans if jihadis get nukes as opposed to the whoring Pakis. For India, what difference does it make whether a Taliban.jihadi has nukes or the Pakis? Have the Pakis given a written undertaking that they will keep the nukes away from India. Friggin heck - Paki nukes are all aimed at India and we have even been threatened as recently as a week or two ago. What gives?

I am amazed at the fact that this has to be explained individually to 1 billion Indians.

Shiv-sir. I beg to disagree.

Whilst the Pak army is certainly not a paragon of virtue and responsibility when it comes to handling nuclear weapons, it certainly makes for a more responsible safe keeper than a half mad jihadi. I would imagine that the primary objective of the Pak army is to defend the country and ensure their (the Army’s) self-preservation. Nukes for the Paks are seen as a bargaining chip to be used against India in the event of a war, or if they feel that they have absolutely nothing to lose from incinerating a few million kafirs. The latter situation will only take place when Pakistan is absolutely on the brink. Pakistan’s imminent demise has been predicted every successive year since the Lal Masjid siege. A gradual disintegration may eventually take place, but not any time soon.

The leadership of the Pak army delights in bombast and bluster. Listening to their statements – who would think that this is an army that lost every single war it has fought? The statements you are referring to in the aftermath of the Bin Laden incident arise simply from a need on the part of the military establishment to direct the collective attention of the nation to a common enemy- India. So long as Pakistan has nukes, it will do everything it can to keep it safe. Kayani, Pasha & Co. know that one slip-up in the security of any of its nuclear establishments will lead Unkil one step closer to attempt taking control of the arsenal.

Unlike the Pak army, the jihadis like TTP, AQ, etc. don’t give a hoot about the consequences of their actions. Besides, being officially considered as “non-state actors”, they have a lot of power and no corresponding responsibility. Pakistan faces war and possible nuclear retaliation if it uses nukes on India. Pakistan may still face war if the jihadi’s detonate a dirty bomb in India- but the impact of such a conflict on the perpetrators of the crime will be minimal. Kayani may well have to think a hundred times before pressing the nuclear trigger. Any decision in this regard is also likely to be consensual and involve the highest levels of authority in the armed forces. Your average one-eyed, three-fingered mullah thinks not of such niceties when he takes the decision to attack India…

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 16:30

Marut wrote:
Luxtor wrote:^^^

You think that Uncle would allow that? Is this the modifications to the P3's that they were talking about?
The Harpoon missiles carried by P3Cs were modified to strike at land targets. Additionally, it is speculated that the P3C was also modified to carry the Babur which is nuke capable cruise missile. It is similar to the harpoon which is nuke nude though.

If you look through Paki material - anything that they produce is called "nuclear capable". I have my doubts about the Babur,

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 16:39

abhishekm wrote: Whilst the Pak army is certainly not a paragon of virtue and responsibility when it comes to handling nuclear weapons, it certainly makes for a more responsible safe keeper than a half mad jihadi. I would imagine that the primary objective of the Pak army is to defend the country and ensure their (the Army’s) self-preservation. Nukes for the Paks are seen as a bargaining chip to be used against India in the event of a war, or if they feel that they have absolutely nothing to lose from incinerating a few million kafirs. The latter situation will only take place when Pakistan is absolutely on the brink. Pakistan’s imminent demise has been predicted every successive year since the Lal Masjid siege. A gradual disintegration may eventually take place, but not any time soon.
<snip>

Unlike the Pak army, the jihadis like TTP, AQ, etc. don’t give a hoot about the consequences of their actions. Besides, being officially considered as “non-state actors”, they have a lot of power and no corresponding responsibility. Pakistan faces war and possible nuclear retaliation if it uses nukes on India. Pakistan may still face war if the jihadi’s detonate a dirty bomb in India- but the impact of such a conflict on the perpetrators of the crime will be minimal. Kayani may well have to think a hundred times before pressing the nuclear trigger. Any decision in this regard is also likely to be consensual and involve the highest levels of authority in the armed forces. Your average one-eyed, three-fingered mullah thinks not of such niceties when he takes the decision to attack India…

Sorry.You are making an argument that suits America, not India

I believe you have not taken your own explanation through to its logical conclusion. You have not completed your analysis of the threat perceptions of the Paki army versus he jihadis

Nukes in the hands of the Paki army is bad for India. It is not a problem for the US or the West
Nukes in the hands of jihadis is bad for India. But it is also a problem for the US and the west

The number of bombs and fissile material is finite. Let us say Pakistan has 100 bombs (a hypothetical figure)
All 100 bombs are aimed at India as long as the Pakistan army are in power. This suits America and China
Any bombs that fall into the hands of jihadis will be aimed at others apart from India. Therefore the total number of bombs aimed at India will reduce.

It is better for jihadis to get nukes from the Indian viewpoint.

I am not sure why people start trusting the Pakistan army and mistrusting the jihadis. You can trust the jihadis to hate everyone. You can trust the Pakistan army to hate India alone.