Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 24 May 2011 16:40

Shiv,
To give my perspective on it - how does the prospect of nukes in the hands of pakis and the jehadis look like? What would stop elements in the pukistan use this as a cover to again target India like 26/11, this time with a dirty bomb?

I am under no illusion - all nukes with pakis are aimed at us and are meant for us - there is no doubt in that. They getting into the hands of jehadis just increase the possibility of a nuclear strike.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 24 May 2011 16:41

Rakesh wrote:Militants targeted Navy, not aircrafts: Naval Chief
http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=15979

Selected gems from the above link;

The chief of Pakistan Navy Admiral Nauman Bashir, rejecting the impression that terrorists wanted to cause material damage to Navy, has said that terrorists targeted the Naval forces.

Nauman dismissed rumors of security breach. “This attack could not be termed as security lapse,” he stated.

Was he also the chief when the 26/11 attacks took place? I remember a press conference held by the Paki Navy chief that showcased his intellect to the entire world. Wonder if anyone would have a copy of it.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 24 May 2011 16:47

Tableeghi Jamaats to be banned from Cantts, defence areas

“

...
Security agencies have been suggesting such measures from time to time in the past in view of the growing terrorism. It has happened in the past that junior officials of the Pakistan Air Force got one-year-long leave on the pretext of accompanying the preaching groups, but when they were later arrested, it transpired that they had in fact been training with different militant groups,” a senior security officer told The News on condition of anonymity.

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 24 May 2011 16:49

Shiv Sir- I respect your viewpoint and your apprehensions. However, I would disagree with treating nuclear bombs like divisions of an army, which if pointed in another direction will reduce the main thrust of the army. It does not make a difference whether Pakistan has a 100 nuclear bombs aimed at India or 95.

There is absolutely no guarantee that the jihadi's will "aim" their weapons away from India. To rely on such a gesture from lunatics is to crave their indulgence and give undue respect to their intelligence. Another point, the Pakistan army may well aim their bombs at India (our nukes are aimed primarily at them as well), because this is a factor of nuclear detente. The jihadis won't bother aiming. They will gladly detonate whatever little dirty bomb they get can get their paws on.

As diabolic and evil as we make Kayani & co. to be, the fact of the matter is that the actions of the Pakistani military establishment are dictated by cold logic. The actions of a terrorist are not.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 24 May 2011 16:59

what is 'that' ?

@ Rahul by that i was referring to 10 P-3C's they are getting, As P Chitkara mentioned that 10 is too big a number for them to operate Maritime -Recon planes considering the length of Pakistani coastline.

During PNS Mehran seize Pakistani Media constantly reported {i don't know whether it is true {Repotee's inculded Pakistani ex- Service Men }}.

1.) That these planes were optimized for Bombing Baluchistan-Quetta during operations against Jehadis.{Acc to Ex -Brigadier that is why jehadi's targeted these planes}
2.) and it was categorically reported in one news report in GEO-TV that there are strategic assests capable of nuclear bombing

@ Luxtor ... Sir with due respect ...

But what did Unkil did when it learnt that Harpoon Missiles have been modifed for Land Based targets.... Nothing Those missile still stay with pakistan pointed towards us
and i believe that with Chinese in picture {what were 11 PLA engineers doing there } and given the chance that if these planes could be modified for Nuke deployment. Pakistan will go for it ......
For that matter it completes there kind of nuclear triad if they have this capability, With SSBN not an option with PN in distinct future, A wing with PN that has capability to launch nukes ....

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 24 May 2011 17:04

I agree with Shiv saar. Give a loose nuke to any jehadi in pak today. I will bet they will target amrika in afghania. Nuke is not some herb available in the grasslands. It's the most prized weapon a jehadi can get ,that too, once in a lifetime .There is no bigger kafir than amrika. So, in my cold logic, jehadis will use the nukes against amrika or nato.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 24 May 2011 17:05

So, we seem to be making quitee a few assumptions here--

1) TSPN will be trusteed by GHQ with nukes

2) The P-3s will actually be able to carry the payload

3) What about top cover for a mission like this?

SOPs for P-3s call for solo flights--a radar picks one up with a escort package-- what next?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 17:20

abhishekm wrote: However, I would disagree with treating nuclear bombs like divisions of an army, which if pointed in another direction will reduce the main thrust of the army. It does not make a difference whether Pakistan has a 100 nuclear bombs aimed at India or 95.

There is absolutely no guarantee that the jihadi's will "aim" their weapons away from India.

It makes little difference to India but it makes a world of a difference to America. I never know if forumites have or have not read the copious information these forums carrry. I repeat in brief

The US actively looked away and certified Pakistan as safe when it started acquiring nuclear weapons
Even in the last couple of weeks US "exeprts" have opined that it is OK for Pakistan to be anti India as long as it is not anti US

Facing a world like this I would like to see everything that would put the US under some degree of threat from Pakistani nuclear weapons in the way India has faced for decades. The only way that can happen is if jihadis get nukes.

Unless you are willing to ignore the statements made by jihadi groups - they hate the US just as much as they hate India. In your opinion you feel that they still would not aim nukes at US targets. But to the US it clearly makes a difference. If the US is going to stand against India in allowing Pakistan to have nukes - I fully support the falling of nukes into the hands of jihadis to make things just that much more insecure for the US so they too start to jump around with the sort of anxiety Indians have to face. Even if you are certain that those nukes won't be aimed at the US - I am dead certain that the US will not (and does not) see it that way. You only have to read what US entities say - officially and unofficially.

P Chitkara wrote:To give my perspective on it - how does the prospect of nukes in the hands of pakis and the jehadis look like? What would stop elements in the pukistan use this as a cover to again target India like 26/11, this time with a dirty bomb?

The prospect of nukes in Paki hands looks very dangerous to me
The prospect of nukes in Paki hands and jihadi hands looks very dangerous to me.

How do you think each of these possibilities looks like to the US?

Clearly nukes in the hands of Pakis was of little concern for the USA. Nukes in jihadi hands is of great conccern to the USA.

I would love to see a situation where the US actually feels concern about Pakistani nukes. I do not see too much concern now, Naturally. Every single nuclear threat from Pakistan besince th 1980s has been aimed at India. Why should the US be concerned?

For similar reasons I see no extra threat from Paki nukes in jihadi hands. It remains unacceptably dangerous to India. I don't see it as "more dangerous" because the Pakistanis themselves are hardly moderate. They are extremist jihadis when it comes to india. I personally have no preference about dying from a nuke attack by Pakistan army rather than by a jihadi.

But nukes in jihadi hands would be the culmination of the efforts of the US and China to arm Pakistan against India as part of the cold war.Why should India prevent success of that enterprise?

jai · Post by **jai** » 24 May 2011 17:26

Chinmayanand wrote:I agree with Shiv saar. Give a loose nuke to any jehadi in pak today. I will bet they will target amrika in afghania. Nuke is not some herb available in the grasslands. It's the most prized weapon a jehadi can get ,that too, once in a lifetime .There is no bigger kafir than amrika. So, in my cold logic, jehadis will use the nukes against amrika or nato.

Or, blow up some part of Islamabad or Pindi. AQ and Talibs right now hate the paki establishments as much for double crossing them and for allowing US operations from the now land of Impure. They may find most targets of opportunity in Pukistan itself, like this raid on Karachi shows.

Given the jihadi infiltration and sabotages within the services - now acknowledged by pak, it would not be a surprise if the jihadis did manage to steal some nukes, though I doubt if they will ever make such news public.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 24 May 2011 17:43

In terms of ease of reach for the jehadis, India is a far easier target than continental US.

Yes, I do agree nukes falling in the hands of jehadi ~~will~~ may make uncle do something. But, nevertheless threat to us will be far greater due to geographical proximity - we do not rank much far below uncle in the hate equation of the terrorists.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 17:59

I cannot personally do anything to stop or encourage Pakistani jihadis from getting nukes from their jihadi Pakistani army brothers. They are both sets of India hating people.

But I see absolutely no point in "expressing concern" that jihadis may get nukes. To me that is a hypocritical emotion. If anyone is "concerned about nukes in jihadi hands" how come I saw no expressions of concern about nukes in Pakistani army hands and the nuclear delivery systems that the US supplied Pakistan with. We should be howing loudly and telling the US to stop supporting the Pakistan army and not worrying about jihadi nukes.

The US helped Pakistan acquire nukes and gave it delivery systems. The US made the Pakistani army more dangerous to India. It is the US that needs to worry about nukes falling into jihadi hands. Not Indians. India have enough on their plate to worry about without singing in sympathy with a US that made Pakistan extra dangerous in the first place.

If Pakistan uses a nuke on India it will be partly the responsibility of the US and we are in no position to retaliate against the US. However India will destroy the US's whore - Pakistan in retaliation at great cost to itself. The US is applying pressure on the Pakistani army to prevent nukes from falling into jihadi hands. Supporting the US in this endeavour is pointless for India. It will not help us either way. We need to make sure that the US applies pressure on Pakistan not to use those nukes at all. Forcing the US to see India's viewpoint and making the US take steps to keep indian concerns in mind is better.

Singing a brotherly chorus along with the US that we too worry like the US about jihadi nukes just does not cut it. That does not help us one bit. We need to worry about Pakistani nukes now. Not about some unspecified future of Paki nukes in jihadi hands. That is what the US is worrying about. And the US needs to understand that.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 May 2011 18:24

parshuram wrote:
what is 'that' ?
@ Rahul by that i was referring to 10 P-3C's they are getting, As P Chitkara mentioned that 10 is too big a number for them to operate Maritime -Recon planes considering the length of Pakistani coastline.

During PNS Mehran seize Pakistani Media constantly reported {i don't know whether it is true {Repotee's inculded Pakistani ex- Service Men }}.

1.) That these planes were optimized for Bombing Baluchistan-Quetta during operations against Jehadis.{Acc to Ex -Brigadier that is why jehadi's targeted these planes}
2.) and it was categorically reported in one news report in GEO-TV that there are strategic assests capable of nuclear bombing

1) very, VERY unlikely. it would take a lot of modifications to convert it into a land bomber, that pakis certainly can't manage on their own (think sensors). and to what end ? they already have f-16s and AH-1's for that job, why would they want to use what is basically an unarmoured 60's design propeller driven airliner ?
2) they claim many things, geo also claimed P3 can land on TSPN warships !!

don't take geo as gospel.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 May 2011 18:39

on jehadi nukes,
a) it is a HUGE mistake to assume that they are not already in jehadi hands as far as India is concerned. ISI still has its loyal terrorist cadre and can provide them with a nuke anytime given other favourable conditions (portability and weight of weapon, ability of cadre to handle it and if JDAM attack on India is considered a favourable outcome overall)

b) it is equally incorrect to assume that pak army is more stable and rational than the jehadis.
that is an illusion, given how it has conducted highly destabilising operations one after the other, from kargil to 26/11. TSPA is NOT a rational player as far as India is concerned. there is not reason to trust TSPA with nukes any more than we trust the jehadis with nukes. (in fact we can probably trust the jehadis a little more. more on that in next point)

c)we should keep in mind there are broadly 2 types of jehadis, those loyal to ISI and hate only India and those fighting against TSPA and hate all non-muslims, esp the west. the first group have no reason to want nukes and if the 2nd group gets nukes, India is just one of their targets in stead of the ONLY target, as the situation is now. that is an undeniable improvement in my eyes.

Kapil wrote:So, we seem to be making quitee a few assumptions here--

1) TSPN will be trusteed by GHQ with nukes

2) The P-3s will actually be able to carry the payload

3) What about top cover for a mission like this?

SOPs for P-3s call for solo flights--a radar picks one up with a escort package-- what next?

+1
this would be a wasteful way to use nukes for pakis even if TSPN gets to use nukes in frist place.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 18:50

Speaking of whom the Pakistan army trusts with nukes - here is a cross post of a post I made a couple of days ago hidden away in an obscure thread of the other forum. Read it carefully - its about the time when Pakistan tested nukes in 1998

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1094274

shiv wrote:From Carey Sublette re 1998 tests
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Pakistan/PakTests.html
According to the Azam the nuclear devices - in sub-assembly form - were flown from Rawalpindi to a designated airfield in Baluchistan (Quetta?) on a Pakistan Air Force (PAF) C-130 Hercules transport aircraft (it is curious that so many would all be entrusted to a single aircraft though). Four PAF F-16s armed with air-to-air missiles provided escort, with secret orders to shoot the C-130 down if it tried to fly out of Pakistani airspace. The F-16s were ordered to keep their radio communications equipment turned off so that no orders, in the interim, could be conveyed to them to act otherwise. They were also ordered to ignore any orders to the contrary that got through to them during the duration of the flight even if such orders originated from Air Headquarters.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 May 2011 18:56

shiv sir,

don't you see any chanikyan in everybody "crying out loudly" - of nukes falling into the pakistani jehadi hands??

possibly scaring the americans into taking some action??

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 May 2011 18:59

US is scared enough on its own. all it does is get India behind the west when there is a potential threat to the west, while the west stood back and encouraged paki nukes when it was India being threatened.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 May 2011 19:11

pragnya wrote:shiv sir,

don't you see any chanikyan in everybody "crying out loudly" - of nukes falling into the pakistani jehadi hands??

possibly scaring the americans into taking some action??

Pragnya I understand that - but what I have been trying to say is slightly different. Pakistani nukes do not cause as much fear to the US now as they would if they fell into jihadi hands.

In other words the US is Ok with nukes in Pakistani army hands.

I am not Ok with that. I want the Pakistan army to come under maximum pressure of all types and from everyone. The US will only ramp up pressure and worry in nukes fall into jihadi hands. And from jihadi hands if nukes pass into Uighur hands to be used against the biratherly Chinese - so much the better.

Remember that India pressure on the Pakistani army is blunted by US and Chinese support. US and Chinese support will vanish soon if jihadis get nukes. So it is beneficial for India if jihadis to get nukes. It is non chankyan for India to toe the US line and say that we worry about nukes in jihadi hands.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 May 2011 19:59

I agree with shiv for several reasons -

1) The nukes are already with the jihadis by now. We don't need to worry about them acquiring them.

2) Contrary to popular perception , it will be far easier to deal with a disintegrated porkiland than a unified one. The only reason why India never struck against the porkis is due to the nukes. In 2 weeks of an Indo Pak war porkiland would be in mai baap mode with kia naani wetting his pants. WE can be sure that they ll use nuclear weapons when that happens. Because the lifelong aim of these yo-yos is to go to jannat . So they are not really concerned about there own country getting wiped. If the jihadis have a handful of nukes some of them will surely explode in porkiland (accidentally or otherwise). The whole country will be in a state of total chaos. It would be much easier for India to deal with them.

3) If porkiland fails Unkil sam and the internations community (nato , un peacekeeper etc) will have to remain stationed in TSP. That would save billions of dollars for India. IN event of unilateral indian strike against a stable (well relatively) porkistan the only country that might intervene is chipanda. the only way they ll intervene is invading india. which we surely dont want.

4) us typically sees only its own interest. Here in amreeka some people actually believe that paki govt helps out against terror and osmama set up taliban to steal nukes from porkiland. Yes these people may not be einsteins. But the reason why they believe this is because some of the news channels here showed it in this manner. Only recently have people awoken to the truth. Sadly the Indian lobby is not always proactive . there was more hue and cry to deny Narendra Modi visa then to stop direct funding of terror.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 May 2011 20:01

the defanging of pakistan must be unkil's problem
he made the mess, he can clean it up
we will hold the towel, provide thums up and limca
and encourage

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 May 2011 20:41

Kapil, The 700km range for Arihant payload means it has to be close to the shore to deliver the second strike. An Onion with all its anti-sub capability can depth charge the second strike capability. The Onion was used in such a role in Cold War. I believe that is what the 11 Chinese were doing : integrating the nooks to the Onions to take out the second strike. TSP-PRC are using unkil playbook in Cold War. Did any one envisage the Nasr battlefield rockets before they were unveiled?

I dont understand the blind faith in others statements?

In case people have forgotten:

Even before the 1971 war broke out the PNS Ghazi was lurking in the sea off Vizag harbor and got depth charged before it could do any damage. So the Pakis have a precedent of being hostile even in peacetime and trying to surprise India.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 May 2011 20:56

ramana ji, and how will it know 'where' arihant would be ? or will it just depth charge the entire arabian sea ?
>> The Onion was used in such a role in Cold War.
was not.

I believe we are again dhoti shivering on this issue for no real reason.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 May 2011 22:14

You win.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 May 2011 23:03

win about what ?

Sabyasachi · Post by **Sabyasachi** » 25 May 2011 03:46

shiv wrote:
pragnya wrote:shiv sir,

don't you see any chanikyan in everybody "crying out loudly" - of nukes falling into the pakistani jehadi hands??

possibly scaring the americans into taking some action??
Pragnya I understand that - but what I have been trying to say is slightly different. Pakistani nukes do not cause as much fear to the US now as they would if they fell into jihadi hands.

In other words the US is Ok with nukes in Pakistani army hands.

I am not Ok with that. I want the Pakistan army to come under maximum pressure of all types and from everyone. The US will only ramp up pressure and worry in nukes fall into jihadi hands. And from jihadi hands if nukes pass into Uighur hands to be used against the biratherly Chinese - so much the better.

Remember that India pressure on the Pakistani army is blunted by US and Chinese support. US and Chinese support will vanish soon if jihadis get nukes. So it is beneficial for India if jihadis to get nukes. It is non chankyan for India to toe the US line and say that we worry about nukes in jihadi hands.

Shiv

I liked your post.

It is more of Chinese concern than American to keep Pakistani nukes in a better safe guard. Chinese have bigger stakes in Pakistani nuclear weapon program. Pakistan can not afford to piss off Chinese at any cost. I wonder (still trying to think more) China is keeping Pakistan's nuclear war aspirations against India in a water tight closet as well.

Regards

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 May 2011 05:17

Sabyasachi wrote:
It is more of Chinese concern than American to keep Pakistani nukes in a better safe guard. Chinese have bigger stakes in Pakistani nuclear weapon program. Pakistan can not afford to piss off Chinese at any cost. I wonder (still trying to think more) China is keeping Pakistan's nuclear war aspirations against India in a water tight closet as well.

Regards

Sabyasachi the extension of this thought process is OT for this thread - but has appeared many times in the other forum. We are not going to give the jihadis any nukes (although I think the Uighurs and Tibetans deserve nuke tech

) - but, on the other hand we must not raise a finger to help stop Pakistan from getting jihadized. After all it is their religion. Do you have anything against religion hain?

Sabyasachi · Post by **Sabyasachi** » 25 May 2011 06:33

shiv wrote:
Sabyasachi wrote:
It is more of Chinese concern than American to keep Pakistani nukes in a better safe guard. Chinese have bigger stakes in Pakistani nuclear weapon program. Pakistan can not afford to piss off Chinese at any cost. I wonder (still trying to think more) China is keeping Pakistan's nuclear war aspirations against India in a water tight closet as well.

Regards
Sabyasachi the extension of this thought process is OT for this thread - but has appeared many times in the other forum. We are not going to give the jihadis any nukes (although I think the Uighurs and Tibetans deserve nuke tech ) - but, on the other hand we must not raise a finger to help stop Pakistan from getting jihadized. After all it is their religion. Do you have anything against religion hain?

How can i have against their religion? It’s their Janam sidh Adikaar to snatch few

.

I would like IRP being at the verge of extinction more (International Intervention, sanctions etc.) than Jihadi getting some small block/dirty nukes.

The targets in China and Pakistan are more Inviting than anywhere else because of no possibility of nuclear retaliation. Blasting one in India or US would make their lawless Jihadi emirates of Pakistan a living hell because both promise to do so in that case (my thanks to nuclear forensics/watch dogs) and Jihadi wouldn't like it as they are trying to get hold of the pure lands.

Sorry for OT rant, no more after this.

jai · Post by **jai** » 25 May 2011 10:49

ramana wrote:Kapil, The 700km range for Arihant payload means it has to be close to the shore to deliver the second strike. An Onion with all its anti-sub capability can depth charge the second strike capability. The Onion was used in such a role in Cold War. I believe that is what the 11 Chinese were doing : integrating the nooks to the Onions to take out the second strike. TSP-PRC are using unkil playbook in Cold War. Did any one envisage the Nasr battlefield rockets before they were unveiled?

Ramana, do you really believe the ranges given in media ? Who knows what the actuals may be

Besides, we have a triad....submarine delivery is not necessarily the only way we will retaliate if we ever need to......also, this is a moving post...as I am sure our platforms would also be evolving in every possible way.

I trust the SFC to do its job very very professionally

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 May 2011 13:38

ramana wrote:Kapil, The 700km range for Arihant payload means it has to be close to the shore to deliver the second strike. An Onion with all its anti-sub capability can depth charge the second strike capability. The Onion was used in such a role in Cold War. I believe that is what the 11 Chinese were doing : integrating the nooks to the Onions to take out the second strike. TSP-PRC are using unkil playbook in Cold War. Did any one envisage the Nasr battlefield rockets before they were unveiled?

I dont understand the blind faith in others statements?

What is the distance between Goa and Karachi. Kilometers: 884.61
So if this can be accomplished then there is.

nits · Post by **nits** » 25 May 2011 15:05

China rejects Pakistan's naval base request

Apparently jolted by the Taliban attack on Pakistan's naval base, China on Tuesday indicated it would not invest funds on creating another naval base in that country.

Chinese foreign ministry said it had not seen any proposal to build a naval base in Pakistan. The statement amounts to a rejection of Pakistani defense minister Ahmad Mukhtar's claim that his government was pushing Beijing to build a naval base near the Gawdar port.

"China and Pakistan are friendly neighbors. Regarding the specific China-Pakistan cooperative project that you raised, I have not heard of it," Jiang Yu, Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman told a regular news conference in Beijing.

This is a reject of Mukhtar's claim that China had "acceded to Pakistan's request to take over operations" of the Gwadar port. "However, we shall be more grateful to the Chinese if they agree to build naval base at Gwadar," the Pakistani defense minister said last Saturday.

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 25 May 2011 17:08

^^^

Maybe India should offer to take over Gwadar port and build a naval base nearby.

I'm sure the day will come soon that India will take over many things at that time in a country previously known as Pakistan.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 May 2011 17:36

Luxtor wrote:^^^

Maybe India should offer to take over Gwadar port and build a naval base nearby.

I'm sure the day will come soon that India will take over many things at that time in a country previously known as Pakistan.

You see Chinese bases in pakistan cannot sustain. Pakistan is offering places where it has little control. Balochistan, where Gwadar is, is a place where Chinese have "don't venture" orders. Ask pakis to vacate karachi for chinese and see the reaction.

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 25 May 2011 19:38

^^^

Yea, I think the pukis think that they are so clever. They're trying to get the Chinese to take over areas that they're (pukis) barely in control of to get it cleaned up and the local revolting population subdued (killed off). The pukis think that the Chinese are so wonderful and capable that they can accomplish anything.

But what happened to the puki to chinki highway that suppose to stretch from Gwadar all the way through Karakoram and into Western part of China? I thought this was going to be the new "silk route" to the oil riches of the Gulf for the Chinese and export route for Chinese tinker toys to West Asia, Africa etc.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 May 2011 21:21

Hopes dancing on bald men’s hair
http://tribune.com.pk/story/174998/hope ... mens-hair/

Hillarious!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 May 2011 21:22

Luxtor wrote:^^^

Yea, I think the pukis think that they are so clever. They're trying to get the Chinese to take over areas that they're (pukis) barely in control of to get it cleaned up and the local revolting population subdued (killed off). The pukis think that the Chinese are so wonderful and capable that they can accomplish anything.

They think that this game is so easy and other countries are lined up to help Pakistan for whatever they want.
Even China has figured out that this is a trap.

Pakistan does this since it is a weak state and a weak nation. The 60 years of existence was based on global financial power brokers who created the global world in 1946-1950. This group helped any nation(even artificial) which was willing to align with them against the soviet union. This group used the USA for building a gigantic global alliance and made USA pay for all these dictator nation building. This worked as long as USA was not financially crippled country.

Pakistan thinks that this is still the same system and expects PRC to help itself to the goodies. Pakistan creation was built on this system and it is not based on an independent economy.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 25 May 2011 21:44

This trend of donating your sovereign land to foreign powers, to secure it from some other power, is so similar to colonial times. Don't they learn any thing from history books?

All these moves are going to put pressure on India as such protective custody will deter us from taking any action against Paki misadventures. Any unilateral action on their soil will then translate to war with their guardian angles too (read US/China).

India should object to any such military buildup in its neighbor.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 May 2011 21:53

Any attack by Pakistan will be considered as an attack by PRC

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 25 May 2011 22:03

^^
No, that's the beauty of such protective custody. If Paki's screw up then it will be their fault and Chinese can claim innocence. we wont have any political ground to launch offensive.

Ultimately these powers are using Paki land as a satellite nation to meet their own objectives.

How we can ensure that we wont be the next victim of these moves?

India should be strong in such times and overwhelmingly object to such moves. Porkies are brain dead, hence our message should be directed to these powers who are intentionally making moves to create bases in Porki land.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 May 2011 22:11

Sid wrote:^^
No, that's the beauty of such protective custody. If Paki's screw up then it will be their fault and Chinese can claim innocence. we wont have any political ground to launch offensive.

Ultimately these powers are using Paki land as a satellite nation to meet their own objectives.

How we can ensure that we wont be the next victim of these moves?

India has to use this arrangement for its own advantage. The final outcome has to be decided by India.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 25 May 2011 22:16

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 27 May 2011 01:56

Arrested Marine Commando had Warned Pak of Imminent Attack
Rediff.com News

The "negligence on the part of the intelligence community and security czars has encouraged Militants
who have named the Intelligence Agencies as "Sheep", the report said. Other Personnel of the Armed Services are dubbed as "Goats" by the Militants,
according to communication records obtained from a flash drive, the report said.

"Sheep" = Intelligence Agencies
"Goats" = Personnel of the Armed Services