Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sudeepj » 11 Feb 2012 22:52

A paki nuke submarine can happen one of two ways:
1. They lease a Chinese nuke submarine, that can launch a cruise missile through its torp tubes.
2. China helps them build a diesel electric/AIP + short range SLBMs.

One boomer hardly threatens the west, all it means is a new sosus type array around Karachi and one SSN to shadow the Pakistani where ever she goes. NATO can easily spare that.. their militaries may even welcome this new threat to justify their expensive budgets.

What will be the effect on India? We will have to substantially invest in anti submarine technology, and also on BMD/cruise missile defense, while at the same time, this will dilute our claim to a UNSC seat based on military hard power. All in all, good business for west, while keeping India off its balance - buying western planes, western SSKs, western SAMs..

Our policy with Pakistani Army and the PLA needs to be one of untrammeled confrontation, instead of accommodation. We must take this seriously, and make it clear to the Chinese that such an approach will have unpredictable consequences.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby aniket » 11 Feb 2012 23:05

Why are we only thinking about the Pakistani Navy getting a nuclear submarine ?
China may not have the balls to give then a nuclear submarine but it might arm one of their subs with a SLBM or dedicate a nuclear sub that would be under Chinese Navy but work for Pakistani Navy
sudeepj sir nice point

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kartik » 12 Feb 2012 05:58

PAF receives its last F-16D Block 52 from the USA alongwith 2 of its upgraded F-16 Block 15s. And TAI has completed overhaul and upgrade of 3 PAF F-16 Block 15s as well.

FlightGlobal link

They ordered these many weapons for the fleet of F-16s..some they may use against their Pakistan Talibs, but most will be stored for use against India. Makes me wonder how many weapons we'll need to order for a fleet of 126 Rafales...

A proposed weapons package outlined by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency in 2006 included 500 Raytheon AIM-120C5 advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles and 200 short-range AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinders, plus 500 Boeing joint direct attack munitions, 1,600 enhanced GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs and 700 BLU-109 penetrator bombs.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 12 Feb 2012 09:13

the F-16 delivery and overhaul line, and american munitions factories seems to operate as a smoothly oiled kamandu machine.
most likely the weapons were transferred from US stocks in mid east being a munna grant deal.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Philip » 12 Feb 2012 09:40

Don't underestimate Pak's military ambitions,as the country is run by the military.See how they negated our lead in N-weapons and missile tech through covert assistance from Beijing and NoKo? beijing will continue to give thme eevrything they need to counter India's modernisation and expansion and in particular,our strategic deterrent capability.They will be provided with a Chinese N-sub reactor,as they have been continuously getting Chinese N-reactor assistance for their massively expanded N-warhead manufacturing capability,adn mate it with a sub that has elements of stolen western tech and Chinese sub design.

One must rememebr that Pak will not need a very long-ranged missile to deter India.A missile with a range of 1500km-300km would suffice.There is a pic of a PRC sub with a bulge below the keel ,meant to accomodate missiles of length longer then the hull diameter.A Song/Yuan or new class of sub with extended plugs/sections for missiles could be designed for Pak,which would have wetsern eqpt. like sonars,etc.which Pak has acquired for its Agostas.

In retrospect,this is a highly expensive method for Pak to follow ,which smacks of its inferority complex with India.Instead the Israeli option of using its German Dolphin conventional AIP subs with two larger tubes for tube launched N-tipped long range cruise missiles would seem a more practical and far cheaper alternative.Once India also gets its own LR cruise missile Nirbhay perfected,we will also have the option of using some of our conventional diesel subs for the same purpose,as detterent against Pak,while the dedicated N-subs with ICBMs will be used mainly to deter the PRC.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE

Pakistani Navy to Develop Nuclear-Powered Submarines: Reports
Feb. 11, 2012 -

ISLAMABAD — Media reports on Feb. 11 state the Pakistan Navy intends to build nuclear-powered submarines as a matter of priority.

No sources were quoted in the reports, which indicated the first submarine would be operational in five to eight years.

When contacted by Defense News, a spokesman for the Pakistani Navy said he could not comment as to the veracity of the reports.

Mansoor Ahmed, a lecturer at Islamabad’s Quaid-e-Azam University who specializes in nonconventional weapons and missiles, believes the reports are the result of a calculated leak by the Navy, and that a message may be being sent to India.

“This news … appears to be some kind of signaling to the Indians seeing as they are taking delivery of a new nuclear-powered submarine from the Russians as well as their own Arihant Class SSBN,” he said.

“So Pakistan is signaling to the Indians that they are mindful of these developments and taking due measures in response.”

Ahmed said he has for some time believed Pakistan was working on a nuclear propulsion system for submarine applications and that Pakistan already has a functional submarine launched variant of the Babur cruise missile.

The Babur cruise missile is very similar to the U.S. BGM-109 Tomahawk, and perhaps derives at least some technology from Tomahawks which crashed in Pakistan during U.S. strikes on al-Qaida training camps in Afghanistan in 1998. It can be armed with conventional or nuclear warheads.

Ahmed believes Pakistan is now gearing up to build its own SSN/SSGN flotilla as a way of deterring India and maintaining the strategic balance in South Asia.

However, in the long term in order to fully ensure the credibility of its deterrent Ahmed said he believes Pakistan should build ballistic missile submarines.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Anujan » 12 Feb 2012 10:14

Nuke boomer is out of the question. Even if they acquire one, what will they fire from it? Green painted Ding-Dongs?

On the other hand, Nuke attack sub leased from China and painted green is entirely possible.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Rakesh » 12 Feb 2012 11:19

The Pakistan Navy's sole purpose in war is to keep the Indian Navy at bay from its lifeline. Keep the oil flowing.

What are they going to achieve with a nuclear powered submarine, that they cannot do with their Agosta boats? If their boats can fire missiles that can strike land targets, then a nuclear powered boat is useless for them.

And if endurance is an issue, their MESMA fitted Agosta boats is more than sufficient for them. If a future Indo-Pak War does occur, it will be quick and not long drawn out. Again, the nuclear boat is a waste of money for them...money which quite frankly they do not have.

But since they are always in the habit of upstaging India, they just might get one (or more).

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 12 Feb 2012 11:32

They would likely lease one or more Chinese SSN , may be HAN may be something better.

As to what they can achieve with a nuke sub over conventional ...for once immense tactical mobility ...ability to engage India CBG far away from shore at time of their choosing without worrying how the fuel meter will force a decision , ability to engage Indias deep south or far east of bengal via N-tipped cruise missile.

The potential with SSN is enormous to IN as it is for PN.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 12 Feb 2012 11:47

sudeepj wrote:Our policy with Pakistani Army and the PLA needs to be one of untrammeled confrontation, instead of accommodation. We must take this seriously, and make it clear to the Chinese that such an approach will have unpredictable consequences.

How about the USA which gives the Pakistan army the money, artillery, UAVs, Patrol a/c, NVG and aircraft, helos and support its needs. I think India shows a curious dhimmitude towards the USA which is why we will never ever succeed in taming Pakistan.


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby ashish raval » 12 Feb 2012 22:29

^^ I highly suspect that this is possible and GoI does not know much about it. It is possible that there will be some military exercises with Chinese army. China should very well know the implications of strolling around in a disputed territory. It is perfectly possible that India can nuke in the event of war and there will not be anything that chinese will be able to claim in the International forum because it is not the party in dispute there nor they have any business of being there. I believe chinese are merely securing their oil supply from central asia and pakistan to bypass India in the event of a confrontation.
Time for Raw to use the techniques learned from KGB and Mossad to bomb chini Generals in PoK then.. ;)

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 12 Feb 2012 22:44

How could they lease pure Pak land zameen and send fellow muslims to be ruled by kaafir agnostic Chinese? BTW, wasnt Gilgit and Baltistan part of Azad Kashmir and yet has no say in its future.

This news should be broadcast from every loudspeaker in the Kashmir Valley on how Azad "Azad Kashmir" really is.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Jamie Boscardin » 12 Feb 2012 23:21

Philip wrote:Don't underestimate Pak's military ambitions,as the country is run by the military.See how they negated our lead in N-weapons and missile tech through covert assistance from Beijing and NoKo? beijing will continue to give thme eevrything they need to counter India's modernisation and expansion and in particular,our strategic deterrent capability.They will be provided with a Chinese N-sub reactor,as they have been continuously getting Chinese N-reactor assistance for their massively expanded N-warhead manufacturing capability,adn mate it with a sub that has elements of stolen western tech and Chinese sub design.
Pakistani Navy to Develop Nuclear-Powered Submarines: Reports
Feb. 11, 2012 -
ISLAMABAD — Media reports on Feb. 11 state the Pakistan Navy intends to build nuclear-powered submarines as a matter of priority.


Well, in a way, this is exactly what we want those Pakis to do, keep up the massive spending via-a-vis their GDP in matching India's might, thus keeping the small population in the hands of their jihadist ideology, continuing to top the list of terrorism export capital of the world and finally get into a full blown war with a western country or self-destruct to a large extent.
Either ways, its advantage India, I just wish they provide us with one opportunity before they self-destruct or destroyed by us.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby harbans » 13 Feb 2012 01:24

I guess Kiyani's 1 week trip to China was mostly about this issue of leasing Gilgit/ Baltistan to the Chinese..but what does Pakistan get? I think that in case of a major conflict, Pakistan thinks Chinese will involve themselves, so India would have to fight a 2 prong war. Presence of Chinese troops there makes the likely hood of that happening quite strong. Maybe even the Chinese feel a 2 pronged attack will be to there benefit in the future.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sudeepj » 13 Feb 2012 02:24

shiv wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Our policy with Pakistani Army and the PLA needs to be one of untrammeled confrontation, instead of accommodation. We must take this seriously, and make it clear to the Chinese that such an approach will have unpredictable consequences.

How about the USA which gives the Pakistan army the money, artillery, UAVs, Patrol a/c, NVG and aircraft, helos and support its needs. I think India shows a curious dhimmitude towards the USA which is why we will never ever succeed in taming Pakistan.


I dont think its a wise move to get into a confrontation with your biggest export market, an economy thats 4-5 times larger than you (PPP terms), is far far ahead of you technologically, offers help in many different ways, and holds together a lot of the legacy security structures of the world.

At the same time, I dont see why there needs to be a supine acceptance of whatever weapons any country wants to pump into our neigbourhoods! There are other ways of fighting this.. We have a non trivial share in the market of opinions in the world, and here we should shout from the roof tops that behind the shield of American weapons, Pakistan Army nourishes Islamist radicalism, and India directed terrorism.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Philip » 13 Feb 2012 04:40

Why that particular area of POK to be leased to the dragon? In that amount of time with the PRC's capacity to build like soldiers ants on dungweed,the Chinese will be able to build an impregnable fortress of military installations which we will not be able to remove/find it exceptionally difficult to later on.It also further extends the encircling claws of the dragon on the ground,now with an almost 180 degree footprint from east to west and will stretch our resources even further.

Unfortunately,the GOI of the moment does not know,pretends to ignore the fact that it holds two very powerful cards,both begin with the letter "T".Tibet and Taiwan.The more China militarises the region,the more we must exercise a more aggressive diplomacy drawing closer to Taiwan and assisting the Tibetan diaspora to confront the Chinese in Tibet.Recent elections in Taiwan have seen the pro-Chinese faction winning,but not overwhelmingly.We must not let slip the diplomatic opportunity while taking the strongest military measures to take on the Sino-Pak combine should the need arise.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby svinayak » 13 Feb 2012 05:03

Philip wrote:
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE

Pakistani Navy to Develop Nuclear-Powered Submarines: Reports
Feb. 11, 2012 -

Mansoor Ahmed, a lecturer at Islamabad’s Quaid-e-Azam University who specializes in nonconventional weapons and missiles, believes the reports are the result of a calculated leak by the Navy, and that a message may be being sent to India.

“This news … appears to be some kind of signaling to the Indians seeing as they are taking delivery of a new nuclear-powered submarine from the Russians as well as their own Arihant Class SSBN,” he said.

“So Pakistan is signaling to the Indians that they are mindful of these developments and taking due measures in response.”

Indian nuclear triad is for PRC China and other P5 members and this is very obvious for even Pakistan. India does not need this for deterrence Pakistan which has shallow geo graphic depth.
They want to use this item to create an image of keeping up with India and show that they are also powerful.

This is a calculated image creation with an element of intrigue and false strength.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Anujan » 13 Feb 2012 06:33

Philip wrote:Why that particular area of POK to be leased to the dragon?


Xinjiang yahoos use it as a base of transit/training/funding maybe?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2012 08:45

PRCs snow leopard CT police will soon bring the light of peace and progress to the faithful in the northern areas.

in modern era are there any case of countries leasing out parts of the mainland to another? I know of islands like Dgarcia being leased but not a good chunk of the mainland....gives a new twist to the "pakistan will sell anything to survive"

using the kazakh gas pipeline and other energy sources I believe the PRC plan is to repopulate Sinkiang with han settlers, industrialize the place and export into the CAR and TSP (which with 200 mil souls represents a good market for low and medium end consumer goods). the paki elites have already been co-opted and will be offered more carrots like JV assembly industries in TSP itself.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kailash » 13 Feb 2012 13:13


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shukla » 14 Feb 2012 18:21


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 21 Feb 2012 19:50

Pakistan gets two P3C aircraft from US

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani navy took delivery Tuesday of two state-of-the-art, US-made surveillance aircraft nine months after militants destroyed two similar planes, officials said.
<snip>
Pakistan is to receive six P3C aircraft from the United States in three batches. The first two, received in 2010, were destroyed during a 17-hour siege of a key naval base in Karachi last May blamed on the Taliban.

The attack killed 10 personnel and deeply embarrassed the military, just three weeks after bin Laden was killed in the garrison town of Abbottabad. (AFP)

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kailash » 21 Feb 2012 21:35

^^^
So much being gifted and India is acting like none of this is of any concern ! For a start, we should ask the American ambassador to clarify their so called strategic partnership.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Boreas » 22 Feb 2012 01:23

^^ nothing much to complain.. they are already giving us P8I. In line with Russian policy of giving latest to us and latest minus one to china.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Snehashis » 22 Feb 2012 01:28

Boreas wrote:^^ nothing much to complain.. they are already giving us P8I. In line with Russian policy of giving latest to us and latest minus one to china.


They are not giving but selling us P8I with watered down AN/APY 10I radar while they are gifting the bakis P3Cs and our Rambhas are better electronically equipped than the russkies.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Boreas » 22 Feb 2012 02:45

^^ So what u suggest, we should decline the P8I and sit in protest in front of white house for giving orions to PN?


Coz in my opinion nobody is going to put there national interest behind yours to make you feel good, so instead of waving the red flag its better to face the way world works and take the best out of it.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sukhish » 22 Feb 2012 05:02

yes that's how the world works. we should stop blaming U.S. keep focus on our efforts.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 22 Feb 2012 06:13

sukhish wrote:yes that's how the world works. we should stop blaming U.S. keep focus on our efforts.


God too works in mysterious ways and we cannot question him. The attitudes and excuses offered about the US to me sound no different to what my local EJ tells me about God.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2012 07:54

about the same as Rus selling Mi17 and AL33 engines to Pakis.
the Mi17s sold were the 'civilian' model but the PA uses it extensively.

however I agree that in the League of Haramkhori, khan stands one notch below PRC and two notch above Rus

PRC is the nuke and missile proliferator and military underwriter #1
Khan is the free goodie giver, economic aid and political cover #2
Saudis are the oil bankroller and political cover #3
Rus makes money on random side deals #4 - however wrt to PRC they have sold all the kit they sold to IN and then some.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2012 11:16

sukhish wrote:yes that's how the world works. we should stop blaming U.S. keep focus on our efforts.


Like Shiv says, it is not how the world works but US policy of containment against India. Thats why strategic weapons like MMRCA cant be given to US because it was try to pull the plug when we try to attack Pakis.

Pakistan is paying only out of Baksheeh and not hard earned money.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kailash » 22 Feb 2012 11:34

Aditya_V wrote:Pakistan is paying only out of Baksheeh and not hard earned money.


Does it matter during war?

From our side we need clearly state our discontent and challenge their actions. Elections back home, plans to pull out of Afghanistan, OBL long gone, right time to put pressure through US lobbies to shut of aid.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Feb 2012 11:56

exactly my point regarding US intentions is supplying these arms, against a claim by many that these are PURE commercial transactions and its all about simple business with nothing against India.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Feb 2012 12:28

^^^No. TSP has only a single use for the P-3Cs, and that isn't against high-on-drugs Somali pirates, it is exclusively for killing Indians. I can guarantee you if the Saudis even made a squeak about Israel, then none of the billions in FMS sales would have happened.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kailash » 22 Feb 2012 13:06

With all due respect, if they want a "pure commercial transactions", let them open McDonalds, subways, papa johns, walmart, sams club etc. Let them subsidize products for the people of Pakistan. Dual use investments - like high tech hospitals, roads and infrastructure, grants for MS/PhD students in Aero/Nuclear tech can also considered partially commercial.

Selling F-16s and P-3Cs are clearly not. But the irony of the situation is India would have to pay for its own modernization AND/OR the lobbies in US to stop the flow of aid. Since either way we end paying, better let US bleed a bit too. Pakistan is as much a strain on their economy as ours.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 29 Feb 2012 21:55

X Posted.

Arun Roperia wrote:18 dead and 8 wounded in Pakistan bus ambush

{Snipped}.....................


A case of the uniformed Jihadi’s of Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan living out the last part of its motto of " Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah” or translated "Faith, Piety, Jihad in the path of Allah”?

The Asian Human Rights Council suspects the involvement of military personnel of the Mohammadden Sunni sect who make up the majority of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the slaughter of civilians of belonging to the minority Shia sect of Mohammaddenism in Kohistan.

Excerpts:

It is inconceivable in this day and age of modern communications, when every person owns a cell phone that the killers were able to operate on their own without any fear that they would be stopped at a military check post. This can only mean that they were military personnel themselves.


In Kohistan areas civilian movement is highly controlled and monitored by the military. The first question to be raised is as to how in such a highly military controlled and monitored area, the militants dressed in army uniforms and highly armed were able to stop the busses which were carrying mostly Shiite passengers and then shot them one by one after identifying them as Shiites.


Read it all:

PAKISTAN: The killing of Shias --it is hard to refute the accusation that the military was involved

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby nitinr » 03 Mar 2012 21:08


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby uddu » 03 Mar 2012 21:52

Ah, very long back we warned the Chinese about it in BR. The warning was that never ever get close to Adharmic Pakis. They are facing for their closeness and their support to the Pakis. The next will be attack on the Chinese with the same Nuclear weapons supplied by them. The reasons can be as simple as eating the pig. Threat exits for the U.S as well. It's them vs the rest of the world.
There is only one solution and it's dismemberment of Pakistan.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Mar 2012 11:37

Brahmos Operation status impact. Some Khaki pants have smelly yellow stuff in them.

Pakistan test fires short-range ballistic missile Hatf II

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Ankit Desai » 09 Mar 2012 20:50

Gilani names Lt Gen Zahirul Islam as new ISI chief; Pasha retires Mar 18

Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Friday appointed Lt Gen Zahirul Islam as the new chief of spy agency Inter Services Intelligence, reports stated on Friday.

Incumbent Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha is set to retire on March 18, reports added.

The appointment of Islam, the Karachi Corps Commander, puts to rest rumours regarding whether Pasha's tenure would be extended.


-Ankit

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 11 Mar 2012 16:55

Sub-sectarian Mohammadden parochialism being practiced by the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Mohammaddens of the Sunni sect and Barelvi sub-sect allege that the Mohammaddens of the Sunni sect and Deobandi sub-sect are favoured by the Pakistan Army when it comes to appointments for service in Mohammadden places of worship that are controlled by the Army:

Barelvi leader alleges pro-Deobandi bias in Defence Housing Authority


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