Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Mark Schwartzbard » 17 Dec 2008 23:53

kmc_chacko wrote:From another Pakistani Newspaper

$100 billion for Pakistan to abolish nuclear weapons?


Yeah !!!! and you will have another 100million Jihadi's, only this time with much more cash in their pockets.

Several hundred cruise missiles and some F-22 could eliminate that threat easily, and not a single US soldier needs to set foot on Pak soil.

I don't think it's in the Interest of China to disarm Pakistan, and US will simply wait until the 2 cats fight (India - China ) and then take away the pie.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kmc_chacko » 18 Dec 2008 20:04

It is very strange that after all these years IMF or any other financing agency has not asked for downsizing the defence budget of Pakistan. In the time of economy collapse or at almost getting into a position of defaulters the Western are more interested in helping them by means of writting off debts, sanctioning new aids or sanctioning fresh loans or helping by means of providing military aid, actually they should have monitored or varified regarding utilization of funds provided by them, than sanctioning fresh loan.

I think atleast India should ask the World regarding this. Because those funds are used aganist India.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kmc_chacko » 18 Dec 2008 20:06

Now China arms Pakis aganist India

$278m AWACS deal struck with China

Code: Select all

Thursday, December 18, 2008

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: In an effort to help the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) boost its air defence capability, Islamabad has struck a $278 million deal with Beijing to purchase a modern Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), legislators were informed here on Wednesday.

Pakistan is said to be the first country in the region to buy the Chinese AWACS system, which Beijing started developing in 2004 after the Americans stopped the Israeli government from selling the system worth $1billion to Beijing.

Under mounting pressure from Washington, Tel Aviv scrapped the contract to the disappointment of the Chinese, who badly needed the system for possible use against Taiwan. The details of the contract between Pakistan and China were placed before the National Assembly on Wednesday by Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Khan Jatoi.

The documents placed before the National Assembly reveal that under the multi-million dollar deal, China will provide the system to Pakistan in the next four years. The most important thing from Pakistan’s perspective is that China has agreed to supply the system on “deferred” payment. The contract has been awarded to MS CETC China.

The story of China starting the development of its own airborne warning and control system is interesting. Until 2004, Beijing had not even thought of making its own AWACS system. Just like Pakistan, China was heavily dependent on foreign countries in improving the performance of its air force.

Information gathered from various sources revealed China launched work on its own system after the US blocked its move to develop radar surveillance aircraft. Washington even vetoed the sale of such systems China wanted to deploy in the Taiwan Strait. Military specialists said the Chinese system used domestically-produced advanced radar mounted on a Russian-made Il-76 transport aircraft.

Chinese military technicians have been struggling to acquire AWACS-type equipment ever since the United States coerced Israel in 2000 into backing out of a $1 billion agreement on selling to China four of its Phalcon phased-array radar systems.

The systems would have used Il-76 aircraft as a platform, but the main US concern in blocking the sale was that China would gain a military advantage over Taiwan. Moreover, under the 1979 Taiwan Relations Act, the US government pledged to help Taiwan defend itself against a possible Chinese attack, meaning the US forces could become involved, should fighting erupt.

For the same reason, the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) air force leaders were determined to acquire such planes. After the 2000 Israeli fiasco, the PLA made it a matter of pride to prove to the Americans they could not be denied AWACS.

Initially, China turned to Russia, its traditional source of military equipment. Beijing concluded a deal to buy four Beriev A-50 Mainstay radar planes, which are roughly the Russian equivalent of the US Air Force’s E-3 Sentry AWACS. The purchase was believed to be the first phase of an agreement for eight Russian aircraft.

At the same time, Chinese scientists were working on their own radar equipment. It is not known whether the Russian aircraft were ever delivered, which would have provided a look at the technology, or whether the technicians obtained help from Israeli or Russian counterparts.


http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=19041

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sum » 18 Dec 2008 20:10

It is very strange that after all these years IMF or any other financing agency has not asked for downsizing the defence budget of Pakistan.

I think the latest IMF installment of 7.5B $ has some stiff conditions related to defence downsizing etc...Not sure though.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby kmc_chacko » 18 Dec 2008 20:22

sum wrote:
It is very strange that after all these years IMF or any other financing agency has not asked for downsizing the defence budget of Pakistan.

I think the latest IMF installment of 7.5B $ has some stiff conditions related to defence downsizing etc...Not sure though.


I donot think so

The biggest lier on earth says

‘Pakistan will fulfil IMF requirements’

Code: Select all

‘Pakistan will fulfil IMF requirements’

* Zardari says govt to ensure self-sufficiency in fuel, edible oil

By Sajid Chaudhry

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will stand on its own feet and achieve its goal of self-sustained high economic growth, President Asif Ali Zardari said during a meeting with a delegation of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) on Tuesday.

The delegation, led by Masood Ahmad, the director of Middle East and Central Asia development, also met Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani.

Zardari and Gilani assured the IMF that Pakistan would implement the measures it had agreed on with the IMF authorities as conditions for a $7.6 billion bailout loan.

Ahmad apprised the president of the details of the IMF programme –which he said was Pakistan’s homegrown.

Fuel and edible oil: The president said his government had also planned to achieve self-sufficiency in fuel and edible oils. The government had decided to accord a very high priority to the agriculture sector for this purpose, he said, adding that it would take measures to reduce the import bill of edible oil and explore the use of ethanol as fuel.

In his meeting with the delegation, Prime Minister Gilani expressed the government’s commitment to economic welfare of the people through infrastructure development and an increase in economic opportunities.

He told the visiting delegation about his government’s approach to addressing problems such as poverty, limited access to public services, and extremism through a combination of administrative, political and security measures.

He underlined the importance of economic development in the long-term to tackle these problems.

Officials privy to the meeting told Daily Times the IMF delegation also discussed problems that Pakistan’s economy is facing, and measures to improve the tax-to-GDP ratio.

The delegation was told the government had been considering various mid-year options in the customs and federal excise areas to generate additional revenue and discourage the import of luxury and non-essential goods.

The delegation was also told the Pakistani government wanted to take new income tax and general sales tax measures in the next fiscal budget (for the year 2009-10).

The IMF delegation stressed need for measures to decrease inflation, which they said had already been affecting common people and the local industry.

The visiting delegation also included Juan Carlos Di Tata, the deputy director for Middle East, Dr Jaffer Mojarrad, the executive director, and Paul Ross, the senior resident representative of the IMF in Pakistan.


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2008_pg7_1

There is no mention of defence :roll:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vavinash » 18 Dec 2008 21:13

The chinese awacs is a joke. I am surprised they didn't simply order more eyeries? It would have made logistic sense plus far better quality though below phalcon or sentry.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sum » 19 Dec 2008 09:04

I donot think so

The biggest lier on earth says

‘Pakistan will fulfil IMF requirements’

Please do not expect the Porkis to openly state ALL the requirements of the IMF loans. Even the IMF will avoid doing so due to H&D matters.

The chinese awacs is a joke. I am surprised they didn't simply order more eyeries? It would have made logistic sense plus far better quality though below phalcon or sentry.

The most probable reason would be the lack of $$ with pak currently. Also, the Chinese may have force fed them the Y-8 to help in marketing the product to other countries( by stating that the Y-8 is export ready).

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Hiten » 19 Dec 2008 10:45

sum wrote:
The chinese awacs is a joke. I am surprised they didn't simply order more eyeries? It would have made logistic sense plus far better quality though below phalcon or sentry.

The most probable reason would be the lack of $$ with pak currently. Also, the Chinese may have force fed them the Y-8 to help in marketing the product to other countries( by stating that the Y-8 is export ready).

Could it also be because Pakistan does not want to procure all its weapon systems from one country.
By inducting a mix of American, Swedish and Chinese+Russian [its an Il-76 based AWAAC] system Pakistan would not be as badly hit if sanctions or restrictions imposed on them in future by one group of nation.
Read it in in a feed today - made a lot of sense.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vavinash » 19 Dec 2008 11:53

sweden wouldn't put any sanction. The Y-8 will be cheaper and helps their ally.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Philip » 19 Dec 2008 12:41

Boycott all german goods! Protest to Frau Merkel about her latter day Nazis supporting Islamist Nazism.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show ... istan.html

German parliament backs submarine sale to Pakistan
Europe News | Home

Berlin - Germany's parliament rejected Thursday an attempt to stop the sale of three submarines to Pakistan, with pro-government speakers defending the sale. Last year, the transaction was approved in the first phase of Berlin's review of the sale by the German warship-building consortium.

Germany's opposition Greens party asked parliament Thursday to intervene, but the large government majority rejected the motion. However several speakers in government parties voiced some misgivings at the sale.

Rolf Hempelmann of the Social Democrats, a party in Chancellor Angela Merkel's government, called for a "fresh review of the security situation in the region" before the government gave its final blessing for the sale.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby soutikghosh » 20 Dec 2008 19:01

PAF and the challenge from the east

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=152807

Saturday, December 20, 2008
Yasser Latif Hamdani

The violation of Pakistani air space by Indian jets recently has given everyone a lot to be excited about. Everyone from every walk of life has had an opinion about it. Still it was when I saw a senior corporate lawyer suddenly transform into a TV expert on international law and its application to military aviation that I decided enough is enough, I need to jump in. After all, in the past I had pursued with some amount of seriousness the dream of joining the ranks of the Pakistan Air Force before I abandoned it for education abroad. Every now and then the PAF Warrior asleep somewhere deep inside yawns and tries to rise up from deep slumber. These are his ramblings.

There is no Pakistani worth his salt who is not proud of our Air Force--perhaps one of the few institutions that have truly lived up to the finest aspirations of the new nation that was founded in 1947. It is a truly merit-based institution that has served the nation with the devotion and integrity that is becoming of a truly professional fighting force. As was true of the whole country in 1947, RPAF too faced scarce supplies and, at partition, a deliberate kick in the pants from the Indians, who had choked the engines of RPAF planes with sugar. It also survived the great ego battle of two Englishmen, the commander in chief of Pakistan's Army, General Gracey, and the Air Chief, Air Vice Marshal R L Atcherley, with the former holding the view that the RPAF's only conceivable role would be to act more or less as the aviation wing of the Pakistan Army--i.e, air support to ground operations. Thankfully, the view of Air Vice Marshal Atcherley prevailed and the PAF became arguably the most efficient fighting arm of our state.

In 1965, the PAF was able to retain air superiority over India by retaining the element of surprise and scaring the living daylights out of Indian pilots by strategic use of the dozen F-104 Star Fighters in aid of the F-86 Sabres. In 1971, the war that was lost politically and on the ground, the PAF still came out on top with more than three times the number of kills than its Indian rivals. In his autobiography, renowned American pilot Chuck Yeager, the then attaché to Pakistan, wrote, "PAF is second to none… the air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty four airplanes of their own… they were really good aggressive dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying." Despite the numerical disadvantage, the PAF managed to keep up with the IAF over the first four decades since Pakistan's inception through superior pilot training, as well as aircrafts which had qualitative edge over Indian planes. This prompted another American, Lt Gen Charles Horner, the architect of the air segment of the Gulf War, to declare that "Pakistan has one of the best most combat ready air forces in the world… For the Indian war planners, the Pakistan Air Force is their worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world…because they know how to fly and fight."

Today, however, one fears that the disparity between the PAF and the IAF technologically has grown so large that fighter pilot skills might not be enough to bridge it. Much of this has to do with the false sense of security that our nuclear arsenal gives. Somewhere along the line, the policymakers started neglecting the one institution that has proven itself in battle.

This brings us back to the recent violation of Pakistan's air space by Indian jets and the PAF's response, which has generated a lot of media interest in the PAF. While our president played down the violation as a mere technical mistake in the interest peace, The New York Times and other US media pointed out why this was not a plausible explanation. For one thing, it was not a single violation but two which took place 100 miles apart. It might even have been a dry run to see how fast the PAF responds to a ground strike within Pakistani territory. The very fact that the IAF planes could violate our air space once and then repeat it, without being shot down, means that the PAF no longer has the technological edge or air superiority that it once had. While our media played on the theme of PAF jets scaring IAF jets away, the truth is that with the Su-30s and the Mirage 2000s and their beyond-visual-range Astra missiles, an Indian pilot today doesn't need to be adept at dogfight or gunnery to blow our planes out of the sky. Therefore, it was really India's way of telling Pakistan what was possible.

One of our journalists, clearly a fellow armchair warrior, quoted some unnamed source as saying that the PAF was a defensive air force and therefore a prolonged conflict would be to its advantage. This does not make sense--in fact, if the conflict prolongs, PAF will lose its skies in less than 10 days. Indeed, the PAF's entire war strategy rests on an offensive strike at the heart of India's Western Air Command--as was the case in 1965--thereby disabling a great number of Indian aircrafts on the ground to establish air supremacy. The bitter truth is that the PAF only has about three dozen truly world class fighter planes--the F-16 Fighting Falcon--and from them, only a few are the latest block 52 fighters. The rest are ageing aircrafts acquired between 20 and 25 years ago and are not an even a match for the Su-30s and are outnumbered by the MiG 29s. After the F-16s, we have Mirage IIIs and Mirage Vs. The earliest of these were received more than 37 years ago. The later models--Mirage Vs--are more capable and the PAF has through its rebuild factory in Kamra managed to keep these planes in good flying condition, by cannibalising a great number of them for spares. Pakistan also relies heavily on F-7Ps, the Chinese version of the Soviet MiG-21, which India uses as its most dispensable plane. The JF-17--rumoured to now have a production cost of $17 million per unit--is still years away from becoming the PAF's mainstay. There are other planes, including a solitary surviving squadron of the MiG-19, or F-6 as it is called, its A-5 variant ground attack air craft, FT-5 (a variant of MiG-17), the jet trainer K-8 and the Super Mushak, but these would be of little consequence in a full-blown conflict. Pitting against these planes is a wide range of aircrafts, including, but not limited to, Su-30s, Mirage-2000s, MiG-29s, MiG-27s, MiG-23s and MiG-21s which makes the IAF a formidable nemesis even in the hands of mediocre or below-average pilots.

PAF war planners and strategists must take into account the poignant lessons of history. In many ways, the strategy lag to technological advancement threatens us more. To hark back to military history, in many ways, the PAF's situation is analogous to the army of Virginia in the American Civil War. Like that army, the PAF is also highly motivated, disciplined, skilled and led by fine leaders. It must be remembered that, after all, no one ever accused General Robert E Lee or Stonewall Jackson of being poor generals either. Indeed, both these gentlemen rank higher as military generals and are more celebrated than almost all of the generals of the North. In comparison, the army of the North had a ragtag lot who were no match for the army of the South in battle. And yet they managed to win the Civil War, primarily because the North had the advantage of the Industrial Revolution, a growing economy and, above all, a healthy ignorance of skills that had long become obsolete in warfare. Thus, Lee led his fine Southern army to virtual suicide at the Battle of *****sburg where the great general's inability to come out of the American revolutionary war tactics led to the deaths of more than 50,000 soldiers in three days. It was the failure of Lee and his generals to fully appreciate the implications of a more accurate musket in this form of warfare. Similarly, the modern air combat, I suspect, will be fought beyond visual range and through sophisticated weaponry--the impact of which will be tremendous. I hope our war planners and leaders are students of history.



The writer is an Islamabad-based lawyer. Email: yasser.hamdani@gmail. com

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby sum » 20 Dec 2008 19:38

One of our journalists, clearly a fellow armchair warrior, quoted some unnamed source as saying that the PAF was a defensive air force and therefore a prolonged conflict would be to its advantage. This does not make sense--in fact, if the conflict prolongs, PAF will lose its skies in less than 10 days. Indeed, the PAF's entire war strategy rests on an offensive strike at the heart of India's Western Air Command--as was the case in 1965--thereby disabling a great number of Indian aircrafts on the ground to establish air supremacy. The bitter truth is that the PAF only has about three dozen truly world class fighter planes--the F-16 Fighting Falcon--and from them, only a few are the latest block 52 fighters. The rest are ageing aircrafts acquired between 20 and 25 years ago and are not an even a match for the Su-30s and are outnumbered by the MiG 29s. After the F-16s, we have Mirage IIIs and Mirage Vs. The earliest of these were received more than 37 years ago. The later models--Mirage Vs--are more capable and the PAF has through its rebuild factory in Kamra managed to keep these planes in good flying condition, by cannibalising a great number of them for spares. Pakistan also relies heavily on F-7Ps, the Chinese version of the Soviet MiG-21, which India uses as its most dispensable plane. The JF-17--rumoured to now have a production cost of $17 million per unit--is still years away from becoming the PAF's mainstay. There are other planes, including a solitary surviving squadron of the MiG-19, or F-6 as it is called, its A-5 variant ground attack air craft, FT-5 (a variant of MiG-17), the jet trainer K-8 and the Super Mushak, but these would be of little consequence in a full-blown conflict. Pitting against these planes is a wide range of aircrafts, including, but not limited to, Su-30s, Mirage-2000s, MiG-29s, MiG-27s, MiG-23s and MiG-21s which makes the IAF a formidable nemesis even in the hands of mediocre or below-average pilots.

Just when we wonder that the IAF is at its nadir( with babus holding up every possible procurement, mainly of the MMRCA), the PAF also seems to be in shambles.

Welcome news after hearing about the depressing state of affairs in the IA (brought about by our netas+babus+ successive IA top brass) wherein we are critically short of every concievable item, right from a NVG to 155 mm artillery and dont seem to be in a great position to have a decisive edge over the Pakis in case of a conflict( which seems to be inching closer day by day)!!!

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 20 Dec 2008 19:52

Worthless article. Virtually every line can be ripped apart.

soutikghosh wrote:...One of our journalists, clearly a fellow armchair warrior, quoted some unnamed source as saying that the PAF was a defensive air force and therefore a prolonged conflict would be to its advantage. This does not make sense--in fact, if the conflict prolongs, PAF will lose its skies in less than 10 days. Indeed, the PAF's entire war strategy rests on an offensive strike at the heart of India's Western Air Command.... :rotfl:


Pray, how many aircraft can PAF make available for "strike" at WAC air force stations. The only asset available to them are a handful squadrons of Mirage-V fighters. PAF will be foolish to risk its F-16s to stike targets directly. At best they can only escort their strike formation.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby p_saggu » 20 Dec 2008 20:15

IAF already has the ASTRAs !!!

But to give PAF and Pakistan credit, they've always managed to acquire the latest technology at handout prices from the US. India was the one who was following suit with similar technology and overwhelming numbers to maintain the advantage.

Problem is that in the last one and a half decade, their little nation has begun to unravel ever since Zia's Jehad culture has caught on. They have been on the verge of bankruptcy for sooooo long now, it must've been painful for the army to swallow pride and accept chinese mil hardware and call it top class - simply because they couldn't afford any western maal - even at handout prices in any significant numbers. This is telling as far as conventional military capabilities is concerned, and India now holds an overwhelming superiority both in terms of technology, training and numbers.

Of course this also has to do with the fact that after 1971 pakistan has realized that it won't come out into an open war and now uses its nuclear threat to carry out terrorist attacks against india in the feeble hope of damaging us.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby aditp » 20 Dec 2008 21:39

Surprising the alacritiy with which the pakistani intelligensia finds comfort in imagining our armed forces as incompetent, yet finds a justifiable reason for their overall defeat on every engagement in the battlefield. :roll:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Yogi_G » 22 Dec 2008 03:46

IAF already has ASTRA as per the article quoted above...LOL...

Here is something which cracked me up big time...LOL...in the link below check out the comments sections. search for the text "JF-17" in the comments, a Porki claims that JF-17 was designed in Pakistan and developed in China, this p!ssed off a Chinki LOL...I have also pasted some excerpts below from the comments...

http://thelandofpure.blogspot.com/2008/01/tata-nano-indian-auto-revolution.html

Anonymous said...(Paki)
Pakistan made the JF-17 and it is a cutting edge technology aircraft. This was possible because we have lot of talent. The R&D was done in Pakistan and manufacturing was done in China. This proves that we have immense talent. If we can focus these talents onto other things like car and industrial progress than we can also achieve it.

Anonymous said...(Chinki)
Dear anonymous, I love your enthusiasm regarding the JF17 fighter. But you are clearly mistaken. None of the R&D is done in Pakistan. Trust me. The pakistani govt just financed the project. Yes, some very minor parts are from pakistani initiative. The bulk comes from PRC and rest from Russia. Perhaps you may wanna show me sources highlighting the Pakistani components / RnD in the plane. As far as I know, there's none. And right now even the PLAAF is reluctant of accepting the plane due to dissatisfaction. News from local media. Non bias comments.

Anonymous said...(Paki)
JF-17 was designed in Pakistan. I am sure of it. Our government has invested lot of Engineers and Scientist in the project, basically intellectual property. Manufacturing was done in China because it is cheap to manufacture in China.


Anonymous said...(Chinki)
Hi annonymous,
Can you show me one source (a credible one) that JF17 was designed in Pakistan ? The fact is it was not. Do you think designing aircraft is like drawing an apple? China till today has not mastered the skill. How can Pakistan who hasn't even made a single plane make one?
The JF-17 is derived from the "Super 7" project, which Pakistan never even participated in. Its hard for me to summarise it all, but you can see it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder

All the info is there.

Everything in it is Chinese except some avionics and engines which are Russian. All I wanna know is name me 1 single Pakistani component which will be used in all versions of the plane (for PLAAF, PAF and export). Just name me one.

Not because I'm a Chinese but because this is the fact. Talking about production, the plane is being currently made in Pakistan. PLAAF is yet to accept it due to dissatisfaction. Chinese models will be made in China.

Perhaps what you say is what your government says. But just do some research and answer my questions. What in the plane did Pakistan develop themselves?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SGupta » 22 Dec 2008 07:45

soutikghosh wrote:PAF and the challenge from the east

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=152807

Saturday, December 20, 2008
Yasser Latif Hamdani


In 1965, the PAF was able to retain air superiority over India by retaining the element of surprise and scaring the living daylights out of Indian pilots by strategic use of the dozen F-104 Star Fighters in aid of the F-86 Sabres. In 1971, the war that was lost politically and on the ground, the PAF still came out on top with more than three times the number of kills than its Indian rivals.

Today, however, one fears that the disparity between the PAF and the IAF technologically has grown so large that fighter pilot skills might not be enough to bridge it.


Funny how it turns out that someone I know very very well, who flew directly against those Sabres didn't get shot down, or when he flew ground strikes against Pakistani armored formations in the chicken neck sector he only talked about ground fire. That thrust in the chicken neck sector was stopped by Indian air power, if the PAF had air superiority .... He didn't feel the need to trash the Pakistani soldiers skill. I still remember him saying I will give those guys full marks, even when we came in at tree top height and could not miss the gunners stayed their positions on the tanks and returned fire.

I guess the IAF also demonstrated its poor skills at Cope India and at red flag. Being sarcastic here.

Pakistan, the lies and the thinking there make me sick.

Sanjay

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 22 Dec 2008 16:32

They have moved their air-assets to foreword bases. They are on full alert. looks like they are anticipating something (a mole might have leaked some info to them) or planning to do a 1971 again.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Chandragupta » 22 Dec 2008 16:59

Yogi_G wrote:IAF already has ASTRA as per the article quoted above...LOL...

Here is something which cracked me up big time...LOL...in the link below check out the comments sections. search for the text "JF-17" in the comments, a Porki claims that JF-17 was designed in Pakistan and developed in China, this p!ssed off a Chinki LOL...I have also pasted some excerpts below from the comments...

http://thelandofpure.blogspot.com/2008/01/tata-nano-indian-auto-revolution.html

Anonymous said...(Paki)
Pakistan made the JF-17 and it is a cutting edge technology aircraft. This was possible because we have lot of talent. The R&D was done in Pakistan and manufacturing was done in China. This proves that we have immense talent. If we can focus these talents onto other things like car and industrial progress than we can also achieve it.

Anonymous said...(Chinki)
Dear anonymous, I love your enthusiasm regarding the JF17 fighter. But you are clearly mistaken. None of the R&D is done in Pakistan. Trust me. The pakistani govt just financed the project. Yes, some very minor parts are from pakistani initiative. The bulk comes from PRC and rest from Russia. Perhaps you may wanna show me sources highlighting the Pakistani components / RnD in the plane. As far as I know, there's none. And right now even the PLAAF is reluctant of accepting the plane due to dissatisfaction. News from local media. Non bias comments.

Anonymous said...(Paki)
JF-17 was designed in Pakistan. I am sure of it. Our government has invested lot of Engineers and Scientist in the project, basically intellectual property. Manufacturing was done in China because it is cheap to manufacture in China.


Anonymous said...(Chinki)
Hi annonymous,
Can you show me one source (a credible one) that JF17 was designed in Pakistan ? The fact is it was not. Do you think designing aircraft is like drawing an apple? China till today has not mastered the skill. How can Pakistan who hasn't even made a single plane make one?
The JF-17 is derived from the "Super 7" project, which Pakistan never even participated in. Its hard for me to summarise it all, but you can see it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder

All the info is there.

Everything in it is Chinese except some avionics and engines which are Russian. All I wanna know is name me 1 single Pakistani component which will be used in all versions of the plane (for PLAAF, PAF and export). Just name me one.

Not because I'm a Chinese but because this is the fact. Talking about production, the plane is being currently made in Pakistan. PLAAF is yet to accept it due to dissatisfaction. Chinese models will be made in China.

Perhaps what you say is what your government says. But just do some research and answer my questions. What in the plane did Pakistan develop themselves?


Thanks for sharing that link. More than the little altercation between the Porki & the Chinki, I had more fun reading the comments by Pakistanis, accepting that they are a decade behind us, made me smile. :D

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby aditp » 22 Dec 2008 17:20

Sid wrote:They have moved their air-assets to foreword bases. They are on full alert. looks like they are anticipating something (a mole might have leaked some info to them) or planning to do a 1971 again.


Thats good. Making it all the more easier for the IAF to do the finishing act. :mrgreen:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 22 Dec 2008 17:27

PAF ignites some sort of pavlovian response in the pakis, the same
way IIT/IIM/INFY does here :mrgreen:

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AMRAM

Postby khan » 24 Dec 2008 09:06

Ho they have the AMRAM? They ordered some in 2006...

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Re: AMRAM

Postby Yogi_G » 24 Dec 2008 09:57

khan wrote:Ho they have the AMRAM? They ordered some in 2006...


500 of them...

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby neerajb » 25 Dec 2008 17:14

AFGHANS DOWN A PAKISTANI F-16, SAYING FIGHTER JET CROSSED BORDER

Old news. Deleted.

Cheers....
Last edited by neerajb on 25 Dec 2008 18:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vishals » 25 Dec 2008 17:27

neerajb wrote:http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DD143DF931A35756C0A961948260

AFGHANS DOWN A PAKISTANI F-16, SAYING FIGHTER JET CROSSED BORDER

LEAD: The Afghan Government said today that it had succeeded for the first time in shooting down a Pakistani F-16 jet fighter, which it asserted had intruded into Afghan territory.



It's a very old news article... - May 2, 1987. Any relevance posting it now?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby neerajb » 25 Dec 2008 18:29

Sorry big goof up on my side :lol: , thought it's latest news. Mixed up the dates.

Cheers....
Last edited by neerajb on 25 Dec 2008 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Chandragupta » 25 Dec 2008 18:34

neerajb wrote:Sorry big good up on my side :lol: , thought it's latest news. Mixed up the dates.

Cheers....


Nevermind. :P
Last edited by Chandragupta on 25 Dec 2008 20:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Ardeshir » 25 Dec 2008 19:52

Whoa...for a moment I was about to go all ROFL till I checked the date.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby p_saggu » 25 Dec 2008 20:52

Are the AMRAAMs operational on the pakistani lock 50 f-16s? I guess they are not going to be fired off any other aircraft! That's only one dozen or so aircraft with BVR capability if at all.

They had also photographed an F-7 with Laser guided Bombs for psy-ops. The aircraft wasn't going to be equipped to fire off the weapon at all!

Bunch of dorks!

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shreeman » 25 Dec 2008 21:52

FYI: http://www.flickr.com/photos/armughan/3130783764/

This sort of thing is interesting. If someone comes across more, kindlee post.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Yogi_G » 25 Dec 2008 22:20

Shreeman wrote:FYI: http://www.flickr.com/photos/armughan/3130783764/

This sort of thing is interesting. If someone comes across more, kindlee post.


I am trying to look up information to see if all of the Porki F-7s have radars fitted to them. I dont think the ones doing CAP over cities are dependent on GCI and would have radars to them....

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Rahul M » 25 Dec 2008 22:30

saggu ji, the ROSE mirages are BVR capable and also have some degree of PGM ability.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 25 Dec 2008 22:32

There was a big ho-halla in Bakis about fighters in Lahore and some other cities. And then started their usual conspiracy theories of IAF intrusion and beginning of war and blah blah. And authorities didn't even bothered to shoot down such claims and sat idle, as they actually wanted to create this superhero image of PAF. At one point some looser said they force landed a MKI in Pakistan :mrgreen:

Wonder how PAF is so vigilant on eastern boarder where as Pakistan is actually being raped in western boarder on daily basis.

P.S. Point to be noted is that there was some unknown aircraft type sighted by spotters during this whole exercise, which is rumored to be Saudi F-15 leased to PAF.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Chandragupta » 25 Dec 2008 22:35

Sid wrote:There was a big ho-halla in Bakis about fighters in Lahore and some other cities. And then started their usual conspiracy theories of IAF intrusion and beginning of war and blah blah. And authorities didn't even bothered to shoot down such claims and sat idle, as they actually wanted to create this superhero image of PAF. At one point some looser said they force landed a MKI in Pakistan :mrgreen:

Wonder how PAF is so vigilant on eastern boarder where as Pakistan is actually being raped in western boarder on daily basis.

P.S. Point to be noted is that there was some unknown aircraft type sighted by spotters during this whole exercise, which is rumored to be Saudi F-15 leased to PAF.


That 'Saudi' plane, mistaken for Tornado/F-15, was Porki A-5. US will not allow that to happen in anycase.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sid » 25 Dec 2008 23:12

Chandragupta wrote:That 'Saudi' plane, mistaken for Tornado/F-15, was Porki A-5. US will not allow that to happen in anycase.


Well it was a rumor anyways. But they have a history of using leased weapon system (during war). IAF should take such weapon system in its calculation before going to war with them, so there are no surprises at the last moment.

Practically US cant do anything except imposing sanctions (which they can never do with Saudis) to stop such transfers.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Dec 2008 05:04

saudis will not be lending any F15's to porkistan - and even if they did, it would not be practical to use since its not integrated into their training and tactics. in 71, they used Jordanian F104's - the aircraft was well known to them and the systems in those days heck of a lot simpler

besides, how long do you think a saudi f15k is going to survive against a Bison, never mind a Mig29, never mind an Su30?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Hiten » 27 Dec 2008 08:47

kmc_chacko wrote:It is very strange that after all these years IMF or any other financing agency has not asked for downsizing the defence budget of Pakistan.

sum wrote:I think the latest IMF installment of 7.5B $ has some stiff conditions related to defence downsizing etc...Not sure though.

There appears to be no such clause in IMF's charity
the question of Pakistan's military expenditure had been excluded from the bank's negotiations with the country's Pakistan People's Party-led coalition government. "The issue of defence spending was not discussed during the programme negotiations," said Di Tata. "Defence spending is basically an item that was determined by the government and included in the budget projections for this fiscal year. There was no discussion of this topic."

Pakistan: Conditions attached to IMF “bailout” will exacerbate slump and poverty - The source sounded a little biased, but, this was a comment that the writer quoted

I also don't think it is in India's favor or in the interest of the World community to see a strong self-dependent Pakistani society. The Pakistani continuing to go for defence acquisations without a War to fight will only be compunding Pakistan's misery and lead to a further deterioration of the country's economy

Philip wrote:Boycott all german goods! Protest to Frau Merkel about her latter day Nazis supporting Islamist Nazism.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show ... istan.html

German parliament backs submarine sale to Pakistan
Europe News | Home

India never quite had anything more than a striclty business relation with the Europeans. No point expecting the Germans to hold back from earning a handsome profit out of a possible War scenarion.

The Europeans are mercenaries. No point holding any illusion pointing otherwise

p_saggu wrote:
But to give PAF and Pakistan credit, they've always managed to acquire the latest technology at handout prices from the US.

That IMO is only to make Pakistan favorable for Ameriacan industries there
Consider this - China to give $500 million USD loan to Pakistan
At the same time - Chinese companies build locomotives for Pakistan [a contract contested by american GE] as opposed to set up a joint venture plant in Pakistan

Pakistan's relatin with the world [esp China] is highly unequal. The World takes away a lot more than it gives Pakistan in return. And I am McLovin it :rotfl:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Rishi » 27 Dec 2008 19:44

X-Post

I recall reading somewhere that Pakistani "Mujahid" battalions have been activated (and the same was true during 2002 standoff.

Question to the Gurus:

1. Are these regular PA reserves? (i.e. ex TSPA soldiers?)
2. Or just the irregular militia of the Terrorist tanzeems? (i.e. scores of village louts with AK-47 training, maybe some with genuine tours of duty in Kashmir/Afganistan/etc)

Is there any parallel to this kind of set up anywhere in the world or in history? I was somehow reminded of Germany and the SS Waffen of the Nazi Party. (these were the brainwashed bigoted armed folks, who were not related to the Heer)

3. Doctrine wise, how would they be used? I guess many of these would have been porters and dogsbodies during Kargil.

regards,
Rishi

Added Later: OK, it seems that Mujahid battalions are PoK paramilitary. Is there any talk of using the yahoos from the tanzeems in mainland Pak for defensive purposes?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby negi » 30 Dec 2008 08:17

Few things :

1. Pakistanis indeed have got their priorities right when it comes to defense acquisitions and more importantly unlike in India they spend far less time on chai biskoot sessions over inking a weapons deal , U-214 and the Erieye are such examples.

2. Germany is reeling under recession ( refer to Vina garu's post in GBL ECO thread), the U-214 deal is a welcome booster for German economy. Lastly they know if they won't probably some one else will.

3. Btw Pakistan just got the IMF loan cleared so payment for the Subs should not be an issue.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Vikram_S » 30 Dec 2008 10:51

@ negi

point 1
i think all it means is in pakistan line of corruption is more streamlined so they dont care about any checks or balance system like in indian democrazy. there are many report on net of severe corruption in paki deals but advantage is that since military is the big dog so it does not get reported. in india if there is scandal so deal gets delayed

point 3
does not IMF loan have some condition to prevent spending it on defense? (curious)


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