Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 14 May 2009 09:48

Rahul M wrote:
parshuram wrote:...........

Do pakistan really posses SLCM's ?
exocets.

But they are AshM's Writer in aricle is refereiing to land attack based SLCM's . Do pakistan have those . ?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 14 May 2009 15:19

More Paki begging for bheek
Pakistan seeks ownership of US drones: Zardari

Speaking in London after talks with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, Zardari said Islamabad was "negotiating terms" with the US over the drones, which have long been a source of tension between Washington and Islamabad.

Negotiating he says! That way I encounter negotiators of all sizes and ages at traffic signals here in mumbai everyday.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 15 May 2009 06:52

US Shares Drone Intelligence with Pakistan, But No Joint Control

James B · Post by **James B** » 17 May 2009 04:23

Report: Germany sells tanks to Qatar, delays on subs to Pakistan

arun · Post by **arun** » 18 May 2009 23:18

X Post.

Maybe Kayani is being correct in saying that the capability for COIN operations does indeed exist within the Pakistan Army. Afterall the rather poor Pakistani COIN record in FATA/NWFP could very well be a case of a lack of motivation in fighting similarly inclined though un-uniformed jihadis

:

Kayani: Oh yeah, we can do COIN

Mon, 05/18/2009 - 12:04pm

Pakistani army chief Kayani insists that his outfit can do that counterinsurgency thing just fine, contrary to what many foreign observers have asserted. …………………….

In my experience, the more someone insists they can do counterinsurgency, the less likely that is to be the case. …………………………..

Foreign Policy

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 18 May 2009 23:55

Dmurphy wrote:US Shares Drone Intelligence with Pakistan, But No Joint Control

America shouldn't be surprised if terrorists now develop the tactics to limit drone intelligence.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 May 2009 20:17

abhiti wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:US Shares Drone Intelligence with Pakistan, But No Joint Control
America shouldn't be surprised if terrorists now develop the tactics to limit drone intelligence.

no doubt you've seen "Body of Lies"? Jeeps circle in the desert raising dust storm, the drone cannot see what is going on and then which jeep the perp gets into and then all the jeeps leave in different directions... which one should the drone follow?

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 22 May 2009 07:19

More hit to H&D..

Foreigns Affairs contradicts MacKay on arms sales to Pakistan

The Foreign Affairs Department took the unusual step Thursday of publicly contradicting Defence Minister Peter MacKay — who has flip-flopped over the issue of potential arms sales to Pakistan.

However, in an interview this week, MacKay said Canada was prepared to end its 11-year arms embargo on the sale of military technology to Pakistan — a statement that angered India, which said the high-tech weapons would in all likelihood be turned on them.

The comments also shocked the Foreign Affairs Department, which took the unusual step of publicly contradicting MacKay, who once was foreign minister.

"Canada's policy regarding military exports to Pakistan remains unchanged," said Catherine Loubier, director of communications for Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon.

The bottom line: "There are no plans to lift restrictions on the arms sales ban with Pakistan.

"

Even Kanadian vizza is becoming difficult.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 27 May 2009 14:46

Promo add of Pakistani Army Documentary. Nice Video. worth a watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5xT96-PqlY

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 27 May 2009 20:38

Type 42 Batch 3 Destroyers for Pakistan

The UK and Pakistan are discussing a deal under which the Pakistan Navy (PN) could acquire up to three Type 42 Batch 3 destroyers following their retirement from the Royal Navy (RN), Jane's has learned.

Meanwhile, Pakistan is conducting a separate dialogue with the United States regarding the availability of additional FFG 7 frigates, as the PN looks to recapitalise a large part of its surface combatant force through second-hand acquisitions.

The PN frigate force currently comprises six ex-RN Type 21s constituting the 25th Destroyer Squadron. Transferred between 1993 and 1994, these ships – now known as the Tariq class – have undergone significant modernisation since transfer, but all are now over 30 years old and becoming increasingly difficult to support.

Pakistan also has four F22P frigates on order from China with the first, Zulfiquar, due to be accepted into service later this year.

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jn...0527_1_n.shtml

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 May 2009 07:58

Shooting down drones may spark war with US

RISALPUR (Agencies) - Pakistan Air Force Chief Rao Qamar Suleman has made it clear that Pakistan is capable of shooting down US drones but it could result in war between Pakistan and US, which we cannot afford.
The PAF can shoot down drones but the decision has to be taken by the government and Parliament, he said this while talking to mediamen after passing-out parade of 17th engineering course, 122 GDP, 80th air defence and 6th A&SD course here at PAF Academy.
“We had shot down a US spy plane near Kasur in 2002,” he said. He said acquisition of AWACS technology by India from Israel would lead to arms race in the region and Pakistan would also get 15 such planes by end of October and after that, 300 kilometres area of India would be monitored.
“We have every technology to reply India in a befitting manner,” he told the media. He said Pakistan would also get modern technology and 500 American Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles.
He said PAF destroyed several hideouts and caches of ammunitions of militants and paved the way for the military to make advances in the troubled areas of Swat. He said F-7, F-16 and Miraj aircraft are being used in the operation against militants in Swat.
He said PAF is fully supporting soldiers in the tribal areas and Swat. Every available resource is being utilised in the operation, he said, adding that the operation against militants would continue till logical end and peace in the region.
In order to avoid collateral damage they before hitting the target first review the information of intelligence agencies, he said. Precise weapons are being used in the operation, he added.
The Army is grappling with not only the greater external enemies but also the problems of extremism and terrorism within the country, he said. PAF, he said, is ready to play its role to defend the motherland.
Earlier, upon arrival at the academy, a smartly turned-out contingent of PAF presented guard of honour and general salute to Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman.
Pakistan is proposing to buy a Swedish SAAB Ericsson AWACS, which however, have a limited range as compared to the Phalcons.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 31 May 2009 18:24

Two AVM’s of PAF promoted as Air Marshal

PAF fighter crashes into house

Islamabad, May 29 (IANS) A Chinese-built FT-7 fighter of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed into a house Friday in Punjab province, killing one woman on the ground and injuring at least six people. The two pilots, however, ejected to safety.

The aircraft, which was on a routine training mission, came down on a rooftop in the Piplan area of Mianwali, approximately 200 km southwest of Islamabad.

The pilots were identified as Kamran and Musharraf.

PAF plane crash kill one in Mianwali

The plane crash damaged at least six houses.

And some more specifics about the crash,

PAF jet fighter crashes in Mianwali

The PAF aircraft fall over a laborer’s house due to engine fault during its low-altitude flight over Musawali area, eyewitnesses said.

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 May 2009 19:27

A Chinese-built FT-7 fighter of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) crashed into a house Friday in Punjab province, killing one woman on the ground and injuring at least six people. The two pilots, however, ejected to safety.

Dont most of our pilot fatalities occur due to pilots not ejecting and trying to ensure that the plane crashes in a empty space to avoid ground causalities?
That doesnt seem to have happened here (from the limited info available though i might be wrong)

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 31 May 2009 19:42

^^^^ Yeah.

LaWhori logic : One Puke pilot = 10 Yindooo pilots

Now you understand how?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 04 Jun 2009 16:48

Pak Documentary. First Episode.

http://www.zshare.net/video/6090037354768372

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 04 Jun 2009 17:16

rkhanna wrote:Pak Documentary. First Episode.

http://www.zshare.net/video/6090037354768372

such documentaries are necessary in tough times to infuse moral in common people,specially after getting billions in baksheesh

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Jun 2009 23:15

But , how much moral and strength can a person have if he is born of incest? Pakis will remain inferior in every spiritual,mental and physical sense. No wonder they have lost every war they fought and created world record in surrender .

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 05 Jun 2009 00:49

^ lost war against whom? maldives?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Jun 2009 01:07

Born of incest , Pakistani lost every war they fought starting 47 till now, beginning with their run from Indian Punjab. .

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Jun 2009 07:43

^^^ why resort to such unnecessary comments. you are only degrading the quality of forum by posting such one-liners.

rkhanna wrote:Pak Documentary. First Episode.

http://www.zshare.net/video/6090037354768372

Well made documentary. excluding all that rock song and effects, documentary was very critical of Paki weapon of choice. My understanding was that G3 had a better accuracy as compared to SLR (FN-FAL), but i can be wrong.

But they are quite right to point out killing power of 7mm, as compared to stopping power of 5mm. This i have heard from other Indian troops too, that INSAS has shorter range and power as compared to SLR (which was prone to frequent jam juts like Paki G3). But they would prefer SLR over INSAS in open killing fields. Same goes for 7mm LMG (which is not a fire suppressor like Paki LMG).

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 05 Jun 2009 10:32

Pak Documentary. First Episode.

Boo hoo...Boo hoo.....

we have poor weapons... we cant fight terrorists with this...Boo Hoo

Unkil..Unkil...If you would just give us some of those stuff we see on FutureWeapons(Courtesy:Discovery) then we may defeat the Thali-Buns ....

Otherwise the world is in peril.....

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 05 Jun 2009 10:43

SivaVijay wrote:
Pak Documentary. First Episode.
Boo hoo...Boo hoo.....

we have poor weapons... we cant fight terrorists with this...Boo Hoo

Unkil..Unkil...If you would just give us some of those stuff we see on FutureWeapons(Courtesy:Discovery) then we may defeat the Thali-Buns ....

Especially those drones, without which pak army in nothing against talibs kinda attitude.

But, must admit these talibs and pak army is way better at psyops. Saw a documentary couple of days ago where paki lady journo visits SWAT ruled by talibs and now by pak army. Talibs flaunting their child suicide bombers and pak army convincing west about their great efforts to control talibs (IOW begging for more). Hope IA invites some desi or english journos in kashmir and learn to flaunt tactics and weaponary to highlight their fight with terror.

black death · Post by **black death** » 06 Jun 2009 15:10

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 624566.cms

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 06 Jun 2009 15:16

black death wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 624566.cms

I'm waiting for their next consignment of bheek F-16s from US and submarines from germany.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Jun 2009 15:26

black death
BRFite -Trainee

Change your name to conform with forum rules..

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 06 Jun 2009 15:28

Dmurphy wrote:
black death wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 624566.cms

I'm waiting for their next consignment of bheek F-16s from US and submarines from germany.

Well from a Neutral perspective why shouldnt the Pakis milk the americans for everything they got. They are fighting an American war, their economy is in the shiter, they are no in a civil war which is adding to the economic burden and have millions displaced. Pakistan (with their small military budge) could never buy these weapons AND the chinese ones so might as well.

And the americans know that to get pakistani help on the Astan border and for all the UAV bombings ,etc they need to stroke their egos in some form or another so this is a small price to pay because India will eventual spend way more on more advanced weapons anyways.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 07 Jun 2009 03:11

Well from a Neutral perspective

That is questionable assertion.

It is a fact that the anglo-saxons are a major stake holder in the Pakistan project well before and since it's inception. if you could think on those lines it will all become clear...so either your assertion as a disnterested party or your understanding of the situation...one or both of them are flawed.

Probably both as is the case with most western born observors of the Indian subcontinent.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 07 Jun 2009 12:24

That is questionable assertion.

It is a fact that the anglo-saxons are a major stake holder in the Pakistan project well before and since it's inception. if you could think on those lines it will all become clear...so either your assertion as a disnterested party or your understanding of the situation...one or both of them are flawed.

Probably both as is the case with most western born observors of the Indian subcontinent.

wow pretty blanket statment there with little explanation. When i say Neutral perspective. I meant if the tables were reversed and India was in the same position (or any other country for that matter) considering the economic turmoil that country would make use of the same monetary oppurtunities to bulk up their conventional armed forces. and more over why shouldnt they? Only India has this right?

Secondly saying that anglo-saxons have been a major stake holder in Pakistan and using it as some sort of excuse to vent is pretty naive isnt it? saying my argument is flawed without giving any reason is a fallacy on your part sir.

And i like the way you call me a western born observer without knowning anything about me. Your holier than thou attitute is a bit much. Why is it that with "Indian born" observers India is always the victim. ?

My main point was what is the big deal if Pakistan milked america. They had every RIGHT to.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Jun 2009 12:36

Sid wrote: But they are quite right to point out killing power of 7mm, as compared to stopping power of 5mm. This i have heard from other Indian troops too, that INSAS has shorter range and power as compared to SLR (which was prone to frequent jam juts like Paki G3). But they would prefer SLR over INSAS in open killing fields. Same goes for 7mm LMG (which is not a fire suppressor like Paki LMG).

Stopping power is a colloquial term used to describe the ability of a firearm or other weapon to cause a penetrating ballistic injury to a target human or animal, an injury sufficient to incapacitate/ kill the target where it stands.

One could google for wound ballistics for greater details.

SLR is 7.62mm and INSAS is 5.56mm. Therefore, the 7.62 SLR has a greater stopping power.

However, INSAS is lighter and weapons are being added to the infantry weapon inventory that can engage and kill the enemy at longer ranges.

INSAS suits the tactical requirements essential for infantry needs.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 08 Jun 2009 05:55

Pak used US aid to fight India: Report

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 08 Jun 2009 16:09

Pak nukes could fall into hands of Taliban if democracy fails: Zardari

Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari
has said there is a possibility that its nuclear arsenal could fall into the hands of Taliban if
democracy "fails" in his country and the world doesn't help.

I am amused by the talent of these guys,they know how to blackmail and milk the world
they create monster and they take aid and arms from world to destroy it, win-win situation

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2009 20:56

For completeness....

Pakistan used anti-terrorism aid to build conventional force

Washington: Pakistan has used a substantial amount of military aid from the U.S. meant to fight terrorism to build up its army with modern weapons and equipment for a conventional warfare against India, Pentagon documents have revealed.

All this was done with the knowledge of the then Bush Administration, which not only provided $1.9 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) but also signed agreements with Pakistan for military sales worth nearly $5 billion during the period, showed the documents accessed by PTI.

The Pentagon documents also revealed that a major post-9/11 American defence supply to Pakistan under FMF had nothing to do with its fight against terrorism.

While the Taliban and Al-Qaeda gained ground in the tribal areas of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan, Islamabad bought eight P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment worth $474 million. It also placed orders for 5,250 TOW anti-armour missiles worth $186 million. 2,007 of these have already been delivered and the rest are in the process of being supplied.

Besides buying more than 5,600 military radio sets worth $163 million, Pakistan bought six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars worth $100 million and six C-130E transport aircraft and their refurbishment worth $76 million. Under the Excess Defence Articles (EDA), it was granted 20 AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters, which were then refurbished, according to the Pentagon documents. Pakistan also used a substantial chunk of America’s FMF to purchase up to 60 mid-life update kits for F-16 A/B combat aircraft valued at $891 million.

Islamabad also paid a whopping $1.43 billion to the U.S. to purchase 18 new F-16 combat aircraft and another $629 million for F-16 armaments. — PTI

So a lot of conventional armament was gifted by the US to bring up the TSP offence/defence capapbility. Yet they complain and worry about Indian threat!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 08 Jun 2009 22:21

^^^^
Well if the US knows that the aid money is being spent on purchase of military articles that do not serve any purpose except to arm up against India why does it sell it in the first place. It is not as if TSP uses the aid to purchase weapons from countries on which the US has no control.

May be a moot point to even think why unkil does what he does because he is after all unkil to TSP.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 08 Jun 2009 22:26

Well if the US knows that the aid money is being spent on purchase of military articles that do not serve any purpose except to arm up against India why does it sell it in the first place. It is not as if TSP uses the aid to purchase weapons from countries on which the US has no control.

Actually the Americans didnt have a choice in the matter. If they wanted pakistani Support they needed to provide Pakistan with the weapons IT needs not what the war on terror needs (or so say pakistani logic).,. Essentially the P-3s , F-16s .etc were a bribe.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jun 2009 11:55

Rkhanna wrote:

Actually the Americans didnt have a choice in the matter. If they wanted pakistani Support they needed to provide Pakistan with the weapons IT needs not what the war on terror needs (or so say pakistani logic).,. Essentially the P-3s , F-16s .etc were a bribe.

Thats total BS, Americans had a bot carrot and stick approach and the Pakis being beggars would have to take what they get. They can easily treat the Pakis like Iran and North Korea and ban any travel to them and completly collapse the Pakistani economy. But the West does not want to give up on its counterweight to India.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 09 Jun 2009 15:27

Thats total BS, Americans had a bot carrot and stick approach and the Pakis being beggars would have to take what they get. They can easily treat the Pakis like Iran and North Korea and ban any travel to them and completly collapse the Pakistani economy. But the West does not want to give up on its counterweight to India.

Actually no they cannot. The Vitality of Pakistan as an Ally with regards to whats happening in Afghanistan is very important. America cannot alienate the Pakistani Govt and military considering the population already has such high anti american sentiments.

Pakistan has much higher strategic value than iran and north korea. You push Pakistan too far they get even closer to China. And dont forget they actually do have nukes that they have tried to peddle on the black market in the past. Lastly the pakistani economy has already collapsed. As for Counterweighting India..whats the long term logic in that? Conspiracy theories aside has India ever tried any Power Projection ANYWHERE? (Militarily/Economically/Politically) I would assume logic dictates that they need us to Counter weight China.

govardhanks · Post by **govardhanks** » 09 Jun 2009 19:06

well here is article written by some pak scientist about his plan to defend his country from indian Sheild's supposedly AWACS and they want to get sword to fight( 500 US missiles).
http://www.issi.org.pk/journal/2006_fil ... cle/a4.htm
In the way he mentioned AWACS can be neutralised, we have to find some other sheild which can protect us..

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 10 Jun 2009 04:06

LiveFist : Pakistan's AEW&C Platform Detailed

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 11 Jun 2009 12:26

RAF gives training tips to the Pakistan Air Force

Members of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Flying Instructors School (FIS) have paid a visit to North Yorkshire to come face-to-face with their British RAF counterparts.

The visit to RAF Linton-on-Ouse was part of a fact-finding mission to allow the PAF to find out more about the RAF's training programmes, particularly the advanced courses for pilots.

Linton is home to the Tucano wing of the RAF's Central Flying School and it was explained to the Pakistani visitors how RAF fast-jet pilots are trained, as well as the importance of ground-based training using flight simulators.

govardhanks · Post by **govardhanks** » 11 Jun 2009 19:47

This RAF training tips to pak is really bad..

Everything is happing as if equipping pak against india. US funding in name anti-terrorism and UK's RAF training.. This is not safe really, it means international acceptance of pak and a major blow to India..

Pak already having more than required nukes, f-16planes, 500 US missiles and RAF training. They will soon launch an attack against india especially against IAF.