Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 08 Dec 2009 21:48

PAF gets first Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C from Sweden

Any words of wisdom gurus...!!

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 08 Dec 2009 21:53

wiki says that....

The radar provides 300 degree coverage and has an instrumental range of 450km and detection range of 350 km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment—in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. In addition to this, the radar is also capable of identifying friends or foes, and has a sea surveillance mode.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 08 Dec 2009 22:06

^no news on mainstream media about this

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 09 Dec 2009 00:16

sumshyam wrote:PAF gets first Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C from Sweden

Any words of wisdom gurus...!!

Getting an AWACS and USING it are 2 different things.. India, a country roughly 10 times the size of Pakistan, received AWACS, but still needs some more time to integrate it within the entire spectrum of it's aircrafts to use it's capabilites to the maximum. From past scenarios with RED Flag, imagine a situation, where PAF fighterjets, barring the F-16's (which I assume to be compatabile with the AWACS) ALL other aircrafts would have to rely on audio or cryptic communications which obviously takes time beacuse if the pilot doesn't get an answer say within the next 5 sec, (he's either blown outta the sky or he's blowing the other outta the sky) I still think they have a lot to learn with the AWACS, and to enable its usage spectrum wide will take a fair amount of time as the needed infrastructure needs to be developed...

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 09 Dec 2009 03:35

sumshyam wrote:PAF gets first Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C from Sweden

India got its Phalcon in May this year while Pakistan received their AWACS now in December. With the Pakistani policy of vis-a-vis, they have done quite well in denying India any overwhelming advantage in the AWACS arena.

This gives all the more impetus for the indigenous Embraer Advanced Early Warning system to come into operation . Also, an upgrade order to existing Il-76 Phalcon radars from the EL/M 2075 to the EL/M 2085 would seem prudent.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Dec 2009 03:47

^ Key point is time lag between identifying a platform ,placing an order and the final delivery TSP seems to do well in above department at least , now of course PC types would argue about Phalcon is in another league and requiring substantial integration of modules sourced from different OEMs , but sadly it is not the only example.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Dec 2009 23:24

PRC's DH-10 cruise missile:

Looks familiar?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 09 Dec 2009 23:51

negi wrote:^ Key point is time lag between identifying a platform ,placing an order and the final delivery TSP seems to do well in above department at least , now of course PC types would argue about Phalcon is in another league and requiring substantial integration of modules sourced from different OEMs , but sadly it is not the only example.

This is probably one of the very few advantages of a country where the amred forces are the big daddies and politicoes come second.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Dec 2009 00:28

The pakistans just buy off the shelf. I don't think they have the purse to order any customizations. So delivery is fast. Now this is an AEW aircraft, not an AWACS in the truest sense.

India on the other hand has a true blue AWACS which has been customized to the IAF's needs so as to provide live input to IAF's entire fleet, in addition to ground and naval forces. The hardware will slowly come up for the same. The A-50I is bigger, has much much larger range and discrimination capabilities, in addition to 360 degree coverage. This thing is like MHOW with a pair of wings and very powerful eyes and ears. (MHOW=Mil HQ Of War)

All the same, this is a tremendous leap for pakistan, but this will only prolong the agony of the pak fizzaiya. They just don't have the technology or the numbers or the stamina in terms of spares or serviceability or healthy airframes, to be able to withstand the IAF.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 10 Dec 2009 01:23

Interestingly in the background of that DH-10 picture, covered in camouflage

we probably see China's own version of Rutan's Long-EZ design. they also have a UAV which looks like our ADE rustom-I

for those who came late we acquired the rights to the Long -EZ in the eighties and built the LCRA which is the basis for one of the UAV's that is called Rustom named after Professor Damania.

Shyam_K · Post by **Shyam_K** » 10 Dec 2009 06:35

Looks like PAF just got their first Erieye
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8404654.stm

Though the articles claim that its range is greater than Phalcons seems a stretch.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Dec 2009 06:44

Shyam_K wrote:Looks like PAF just got their first Erieye
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8404654.stm

Though the articles claim that its range is greater than Phalcons seems a stretch.

By all accounts that I read - kickbacks is big in Pakistan. Some Paki would have made millions for this order. But in the long term Sweden must not go unpunished by India for this.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Dec 2009 08:30

shiv wrote:By all accounts that I read - kickbacks is big in Pakistan. Some Paki would have made millions for this order. But in the long term Sweden must not go unpunished by India for this.

why single out Sweden ? they refused to sell them Gripens by the way when Musharraf went to Sweden and expressed interest in their purchase..the US sells them pretty much everything and that too at discounted prices as part of packages.then there are the French who sold them the Mirages, Agostas, wanted to sell them Merlin subs and were even close to selling Mirage-2000-5s to the Pakis and have sold a host of other items..its another matter that the bhikhaaris couldn't afford the new Mirages and preferred F-16s handed out as baksheesh. then the Russians cocked a nose at us (despite all the noises made in our media and by the GoI) and allowed the Chinese to transfer the RD-93s for the JF-17..turns out there is no one nation that won't sell to the Pakis just to please India, unless India can make up for their losses by buying something else.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 10 Dec 2009 08:44

Kartik wrote:why single out Sweden ? they refused to sell them Gripens

I at times suspect a hidden Chinese hand. You see Pakis bought Agostas and a decade later Chinese submarines were reported to have improvements derived from Agostas. I suspect same is going to happen for AWACS as well. Now this cannot be one way...remember Pakis getting Barber missile, don't assume Chinese gave them for free. Pakis seem to be the source helping Chinese defeat the sanctions on military equipment to China.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 10 Dec 2009 08:53

abhiti wrote:
Kartik wrote:why single out Sweden ? they refused to sell them Gripens
I at times suspect a hidden Chinese hand. You see Pakis bought Agostas and a decade later Chinese submarines were reported to have improvements derived from Agostas. I suspect same is going to happen for AWACS as well. Now this cannot be one way...remember Pakis getting Barber missile, don't assume Chinese gave them for free. Pakis seem to be the source helping Chinese defeat the sanctions on military equipment to China.

This is quite plausible. Chinese reverse-engineering coupled with their massive industrial and military espionage operation could help them defeat Western attempts to deny Chinese technology. The Pakistanis a few years ago were very insistent that Washington sell them MQ-9 Reapers. One can only imagine the damage to international security should that advanced UCAV technology have fallen into the hands of the Chinese. As the US shares technology with the Europeans and the European tendency to make a quick buck, the chance of advanced technologies proliferating into China remains very high. Like Kartik said, ultimately, money talks. Other than the Russians, almost every other nation has no problems selling the Pakistanis anything if it advances their bottom line and doesn't threaten their security.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Dec 2009 09:51

Pakistan acquires airborne early warning aircraft

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan has acquired the first of four airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft from Sweden, an air force spokesman said on Wednesday, in a move to match the capabilities of its main rival, India.

The Saab-2000 AWACS aircraft was handed over to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Tuesday.

"The aircraft landed at one of the PAF's main operating bases, marking the achievement of a major milestone in the overall modernisation plan of PAF," the spokesman said in a statement.

The air force gave no details of the cost of the deal nor did it say when the three remaining aircraft would be delivered.

The AWACS aircraft can detect high- and medium-altitude aircraft, low-level flying objects over land and sea and can pick up surface targets over the sea, the force said.

India acquired the first of three AWACS aircraft from Israel in May.

The nuclear-armed South Asian rivals have fought three wars since their independence from British rule in 1947 and strive to match each other's military capabilities.

India is also wary of its northeastern neighbour, China, which is the main supplier of defence hardware to Pakistan.

Relations between Pakistan and India improved after they launched a peace process in early 2004 but India suspended a broad peace process after last year's militant attacks on the Indian city of Mumbai by Pakistan-based Islamist militants.

India increased its defence spending by nearly a quarter in 2009/10 to $28.9 billion (17.9 billion pounds) as the government focussed on security following the Mumbai attacks in which 166 people were killed.

Pakistan raised its defence spending by 15.3 percent in the 2009/10 fiscal year to $4.2 billion, though defence analysts say much of the increase would be spend on the fight against al Qaeda and Taliban militants on its western border with Afghanistan.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Dec 2009 10:11

The chinese are under a european embargo for arms sales. The americans won't sell defense goods to them, and have also stopped the israelis from any defense cooperation with the chinese.
Pakistan is the only nation which gets defense goodies from the west and it freely shares these with its taller than oceans, deeper than mountains friend.
This is one of the reasons why the pakis have spent extra money in acquiring ToT for defense projects. We used to laugh that what is this country going to do with the ToT, when they just don't have a mediocre industrial or engineering base; now we know.
The US was not supplying advanced goods to the pakistanis for some time recently, but the economic situation back home has forced them to sell the pakistanis the Block 52 F-16s. Even though the US has demanded strict adherence to the EULA, one can't but help thinking that it is only a matter of time before these tech will be reverse engineered by the chinese. The SAAB eyrie is headed the same way into chinese hands to improve its KJ-2000 AWACS.

The chinese have no option but to innovate or steal tech. No one is giving them any defense tech directly.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Dec 2009 10:24

Gagan wrote:The SAAB eyrie is headed the same way into chinese hands to improve its KJ-2000 AWACS.

I'm no radar expert, but KJ-2000 being a chapati carrier and Eyrie being a belan carrier, how will the Eyrie technology help the KJ but for ina very limited way?

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 10 Dec 2009 11:10

Dmurphy wrote:
Gagan wrote:The SAAB eyrie is headed the same way into chinese hands to improve its KJ-2000 AWACS.
I'm no radar expert, but KJ-2000 being a chapati carrier and Eyrie being a belan carrier, how will the Eyrie technology help the KJ but for ina very limited way?

The shape of the antenna array is immaterial to the radar technology. The Radar dome is the optimum design as it provides the greatest coverage compared to pod design as earlier antenna were larger and required more space. NATO initially went for rotor radome's while the Israelis went for a 3 antenna array system. The Israelis now use a pod design of their latest Phalcon radar on their Gulfstream's.

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Dec 2009 20:27

X Posted.

Colonel plays out the “Jihad fi Sabilillah” or “Jihad in the path of Allah” part of motto of “ Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah” of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and gets a court martial for his troubles.

Is it halal in an Islamic Republic for the Government to penalise an individual for following the exhortations of a motto on Jihad

:

Court martial of colonel, two others from tomorrow

By Our Monitoring Desk Submitted 9 hrs 55 mins ago

Court-martial of a military officer and two civilians, who went missing in Rawalpindi a few months back, will start on Friday (tomorrow) on charges of spying and inciting army personnel to get involved in terrorist acts, reported BBC on Wednesday.

Colonel Shahid Bashir, a former Air Force pilot and now an advocate Nadeem Ahmad Shah, and Awais Ali Khan, an Engineer, were arrested by a military intelligence agency in Rawalpindi in May this year. …………………..

The three accused are in Army custody in Kotli District of Azad Kashmir but no details of the allegations levelled on them have been duly furnished so far. Certain sources, however, have told BBC that the three persons have been accused of leaking out some secrets of the PAF airbase Shamsi in Balochistan and inducing Army officers to destructive activities. ……………………..

As per details of the charges sent to the families of the three persons, Col Shahid Bashir of Army Engineering Unit has been charged with leaking out secrets of Shamsi airbase to the people who were planning to attack the airbase.

Col Bashir hails from Faisalabad and he is being interrogated for keeping links with Hizbut Tahrir.

Nadeem Ahmad Shah, a former PAF pilot and a lawyer for the last several years, is an active member of Rawalpindi Bar.

Awais Ali Khan returned to Pakistan in 2002 after getting his Mechanical Engineer’s degree from the US. He is a Green Card holder and husband of an American spouse. He joined service with Air Weapons Complex run by Pakistan Army but two years before he resigned from his service. Since then he has been running his own factory.

The Nation

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2009 06:31

I have almost finished reading PAF Air Cdre Sajad Haider's book (Flight of the Falcon) that I will review soon. It is a gold mine of info - a lot of which cannot appear on a review, but reading the book I got an insight into a topic that has been discussed here on BRF.

Time and again people have lamented "How is it that the PAF decides on a system - say an AWACS and acquires it in just a year or two while Indian babooze do not reach any decision for 20 years?"

It is clear from Haider's book that even from the 60s and 70s the "method" used by arms exporting countries like France (Submarines, aircraft), Sweden and the US and Japan (shipping) was to use a middleman - often a citizen of the importing country (Pakistan) to lubricate and sweeten the deal. Sweetening of course means inflating the price of a $ 800 million deal to $ 1.2 billion and using the extra money as kickbacks.

This is a time honored method which believe it or not India has actually tried to stop. No wonder people find it difficult to do deals with us. Most arms exporters are interested in their money, not your defence. A Pakistan is ideal. the country gets arms instantly and middlemen as well as the exporting company get very rich. Money often comes from loans and aid, paid by various taxpayers.

Off topic but this might possibly explain the failed ALH deal with that South American nation where the request for financing the deal may have been a request for bribe. GoI has no bribe giving dept although bribe taking is an individual's dharma and the nation's karma.

Sorry. OT

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Dec 2009 06:48

Which is why India's defense goods need an Antrix / Rosoboronexport to improve the sales and marketing of Indian defense goods, with a separate funds for 'education' purposes.

India needs an agent for its deals.

And BTW government to government deals are not immune to bribery. The saudi Typhoon fighter deal is a Government to government deal, where BAE - a government arm paid to the tune of $ 1Billion as bribes to the saudi princes. There was a huge row, and ultimately the brits quashed the investigation, with Tony Blair openly saying that this is detrimental to British-saudi relations.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2009 07:27

Gagan wrote:
And BTW government to government deals are not immune to bribery. The saudi Typhoon fighter deal is a Government to government deal, where BAE - a government arm paid to the tune of $ 1Billion as bribes to the saudi princes. There was a huge row, and ultimately the brits quashed the investigation, with Tony Blair openly saying that this is detrimental to British-saudi relations.

Yes - I saw the video of Blair saying that, but if I am a seller and my brother is the government and you are the buyer my brother and I stand to gain no matter which way you look at it. No wonder government to government deals are not free from bribery.

All Western nations apply their cheating/corruption laws internally very strictly but flout them when it comes to other nations. The difference between the US and India is that Americans. for all their freedom do not enjoy the right to screw other Americans, and are protected from being screwed by others, although they are allowed to screw everyone else. Indians on the other hand have the freedom to screw each other and be screwed by everyone else. We are a more free country no? We need to bend the rules to make it more American.

Pakistan is the ideal whore state where Pakis will happily screw their nation minus any guilt or punishment. Some Indians feel some guilt while screwing India. Americans will get punished for screwing America.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Dec 2009 09:09

Pakistan has just acquired the Saab AEW aircraft.
I wonder if it is a boon for them.
The analogy is similar to the nuclear bums they have, the nooks need a lot of protection within pakistan, and that country might end up never using them.

The pakistani airforce is as it is constrained in terms of numbers wrt the IAF. Now for each AEW aircraft in the air, their fizzaiya will have to dedicate their best fighters to escort it. Say 4 odd F-16s or JF-17 bandars. Any lesser number of aircraft escorting the AEW and they open a window for the IAF to take it out.

That means 4 aircraft just flying around, guzzling fuel and spare parts and not participating in battle. Not good for an airforce that faces a crunch in numbers and fuel and spares.

disha · Post by **disha** » 11 Dec 2009 10:58

Shyam_K wrote:Looks like PAF just got their first Erieye
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8404654.stm

Though the articles claim that its range is greater than Phalcons seems a stretch.

Juicy target for Astra or Akash or Barak or AAD. To defeat Eireye, all we have to do is push the LR-SAM assets forward and that system has to work outside SAM's envelope, resulting in a much truncated strategic value.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 11 Dec 2009 11:04

Gagan wrote:
That means 4 aircraft just flying around, guzzling fuel and spare parts and not participating in battle. Not good for an airforce that faces a crunch in numbers and fuel and spares.

Knowing the paki psyche of emulating arabee ghaddas, they will depute their best condition f-16s and their top line pilots to save the jewel.

Their lack of real-estate to safely operate within their envelope will be a boon for us. One more additional headache for fizzle-ya to save the Awacs. The icing would be when we get the novator, and fit it on the SUs.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Dec 2009 11:59

shiv wrote:I have almost finished reading PAF Air Cdre Sajad Haider's book (Flight of the Falcon) that I will review soon. ............................

Shiv, where can we purchase the book from? Any source in Bangalore?
Thanx.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 11 Dec 2009 15:33

A LRTR which we plan to use for our AAD/PAD system would surely be able to pick up a saab Aircraft inside TSP territory , then it would be able to take down such an aircraft too.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Dec 2009 12:38

Dmurphy wrote:
Gagan wrote:The SAAB eyrie is headed the same way into chinese hands to improve its KJ-2000 AWACS.
I'm no radar expert, but KJ-2000 being a chapati carrier and Eyrie being a belan carrier, how will the Eyrie technology help the KJ but for ina very limited way?

they have an Erieye duplicate also..the Y8 Balance Beam

image

exact same solution for the antenna as the Erieye

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 13 Dec 2009 09:32

Pak Air Force set to get mid-air re-fuellers

Pakistan will be receiving first plane of the batch towards the end of this month from Ukraine. The Ukrainian government has informed Pakistan about start of supply of the sophisticated planes.

I think they are trying to get what we have....

!

Any words of wisdom....gurus..!

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 13 Dec 2009 09:59

Nah..these are second hand refurbished ones. No one else will sell them new planes nor can they afford them. Anyway these are just White elephants for PAF. PAF will be fighting a defensive war they are not capable of any offensive attacks. IAF does need to order the A-330 based refuellers soon.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 13 Dec 2009 10:23

vavinash wrote: IAF does need to order the A-330 based refuellers soon.

hm...hope things to right...!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Dec 2009 16:36

pak is getting awacs and refuelers for == h&d purposes. instead of adding to war fighting capability, these will be operational and tactical nightmares for them and a further drain on resources. if they take off at all in a tactical environment, they will be nice targets for Rambha

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 13 Dec 2009 20:39

sumshyam wrote:Pak Air Force set to get mid-air re-fuellers

Pakistan will be receiving first plane of the batch towards the end of this month from Ukraine. The Ukrainian government has informed Pakistan about start of supply of the sophisticated planes.
I think they are trying to get what we have.... !

Any words of wisdom....gurus..!

The mid air re-fueling will give PAK the capability to strike targets in south India. PAF plains can take off from Karachi and refuel some where in the Arabian Sea before heading towards pre-designated targets like Bangalore and Hyderabad in the south. This is a game changer for PAF.

The thing that amazes me the most is, Govt. of India and its armed forces debate for decades before any thing is bought and baksheesh is received; On the other hand Pakistan gets what ever it need its baksheesh very quickly, killing two birds with one stone.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 13 Dec 2009 21:06

PAF will not be able to do squat with these. Infact 1 squardon of fighters will get tied down to protect these white elephants. Once IAF inducts KS-172 or R-33/37 these are sitting ducks anyway.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 13 Dec 2009 21:16

VinodTK wrote: The mid air re-fueling will give PAK the capability to strike targets in south India. PAF plains can take off from Karachi and refuel some where in the Arabian Sea before heading towards pre-designated targets like Bangalore and Hyderabad in the south. This is a game changer for PAF.

The thing that amazes me the most is, Govt. of India and its armed forces debate for decades before any thing is bought and baksheesh is received; On the other hand Pakistan gets what ever it need its baksheesh very quickly, killing two birds with one stone.

While theoretically they can reach Hyderabad or Bangalore now, I dont think its practically possible. They will be shot down. I dont think its possible for an enemy plain to fly over Indian territory for so long to reach Bangalore or Hydbd etc and attack. Not going to happen.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 13 Dec 2009 22:06

VinodTK wrote:
The mid air re-fueling will give PAK the capability to strike targets in south India. PAF plains can take off from Karachi and refuel some where in the Arabian Sea before heading towards pre-designated targets like Bangalore and Hyderabad in the south. This is a game changer for PAF.

The thing that amazes me the most is, Govt. of India and its armed forces debate for decades before any thing is bought and baksheesh is received; On the other hand Pakistan gets what ever it need its baksheesh very quickly, killing two birds with one stone.

If this was the case a decade ago I would agree with you. However, the balance of force in peninsular India now weighs against it. Last few years has seen a lot of activity (training and building of capabilities) by Navy at its myriad air stations and most importantly the Southern Command of Air Force.

IMHO 26/11 was a long term strategic blunder by Pak as India is now aggressively building up its sea ward defensive posture in all spheres (air, surface and sub surface) across the whole spectrum (low to high intensity).

Regards,
Kiran

khan · Post by **khan** » 13 Dec 2009 22:07

Lalmohan wrote:pak is getting awacs and refuelers for == h&d purposes. instead of adding to war fighting capability, these will be operational and tactical nightmares for them and a further drain on resources. if they take off at all in a tactical environment, they will be nice targets for Rambha

vavinash wrote:PAF will not be able to do squat with these. Infact 1 squardon of fighters will get tied down to protect these white elephants. Once IAF inducts KS-172 or R-33/37 these are sitting ducks anyway.

People seem to be under estimating the capability this affords the Pakistani's. The above analysis holds true if India is the aggressor and does not give them the opportunity to get their air defences in order.

However, as in all past conflicts with Pakistan, India will likely not be the aggressor. This means that the Pakistanis will have the ability to send their their planes deep into South India in the middle of the night, while India sleeps and try to do some damage. The worst case scenario for India would be a six day war type situation.

Regarding the AWACS, if the Pakistanis manage to get them up and defended, the cost of neutralizing them could be high.

I hope the IAF is not as dismissive of these threats as the August members of this forum.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 13 Dec 2009 22:34

Dear Khan,
Both the Saab 200 &Il-78 are subsonic with low rates of climb. Any manuvering by the erieye will shear off its radar & the tanker with a full load will face similar restrictions.

Remember the Atlantique?

Having a protective fighter cover restricts the fighter's freedom of movement. Hence the defender will have all the advantages against such a package.

The

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 13 Dec 2009 22:36

khan wrote: However, as in all past conflicts with Pakistan, India will likely not be the aggressor. This means that the Pakistanis will have the ability to send their their planes deep into South India in the middle of the night, while India sleeps and try to do some damage.

You do know there were at least 4 incidents in the past 6 months where we have forced aircraft to land because they did not have proper clearance. And some were just commercial airliners. So I feel that your assumption about Pakistanis sneaking a refueller and fighters while we 'sleep' might be a little improbable. Doesn't stop them from trying though. And if the august members of this community have taken note of that, I'm sure there are at least some in the IAF as intelligent as us.