Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Apr 2010 17:14

X Posted.

The kleptocratic doctrine of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan at work.

The Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has been caught indulging in Water Jihad in the path of Allah with the Punjab province Irrigation Department accusing the Army of “blatant water theft”:

Army, Rangers accused of stealing water

By Ahmad Fraz Khan
Wednesday, 07 Apr, 2010 | 02:32 AM PST |

LAHORE, April 6: Accusing the Army and Rangers of being involved in “blatant water theft”, the Punjab irrigation department has urged the chief minister to “immediately take up the matter at appropriate level”.

In a summary to the provincial chief executive, the department said that water theft by “state agencies greatly undermines its moral authority (to check individual farmers and other influential people involved in the crime)”.

“Water theft has become a serious issue over the past two decades and is seriously affecting canal operations and equitable distribution of water. Theft by influential people at the head-reaches results in water shortage and deprives the poor farmers at the tail of these channels. Against this backdrop, water theft by state agencies robs the department of any moral authority to go after small farmers.” ..............................

Dawn

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 08 Apr 2010 00:38

TAKE IT FOR WHAT ITS WORTH!

Pakistan operates indigenous drones

ISLAMABAD (APP) – Pakistan on Monday conducted successful operation of indigenously developed drone in the area of Sargodha, said Director General ISPR Major General Athar Abbas.Briefing newsmen on the Azm-e-Nau-3 exercise by Pakistan Army, General Athar said that some of the news channels are airing news regarding the presence of some drones in the air of Sargodha presumably owned by some other country than Pakistan. “There is no substance in such news as the drones seen in the air of Sargodha are indigenously developed by Pakistan,” he said.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 08 Apr 2010 01:22

Pakistan To Test-Fire Italy Air Defense Missiles

Pakistan will test-fire in July the Spada 2000 air defense system acquired from MBDA Italia, a source at the firm said April 7.

The Spada test-firing will follow the delivery of the first of ten Spada batteries ordered by Pakistan for 415 million euros in 2007. Antonio Perfetti, CEO of MBDA Italia, said that delivery of the battery was currently underway.

All 10 batteries are due for delivery by 2013, and further orders from Pakistan could follow, Perfetti said. MBDA Italia is the Finmeccanica-owned Italian operation within the European missile house MBDA.

"We have identified 95 percent of the offset arrangements on the Spada contract," said Perfetti, who added that offset was less than the full value of the contract. "A facility has already been set aside for munition assembly and other firms have been given work commitments."

MBDA is also pitching an extended range version of its Marte anti-ship missile to India, for likely use on Sea King helicopters. The normal range, Marte Mk2-S version has now been delivered to the Italian Navy.
"We started talking to the Indian Navy two years ago and we are obtaining an operational requirement for helicopters to serve as a base for future cooperation," said MBDA CEO Antoine Bouvier, who was holding a press conference in Rome alongside Perfetti.

"We are considering launching a demonstrator that could be ready in 18-24 months," Perfetti said. "The model for this fast, low risk approach was the Complex Weapons program in the UK."

"We are looking for export customers interested in upgrade versions of products," Bouvier said. "We see it as a way of partly funding upgrades that our national customers could be interested in. The extended range Marte is an example."

MBDA Italia is also working with Italy's Alenia Aermacchi to mount the Marte missile on the light combat fighter version of the firm's M-346 jet trainer, Perfetti said.

...........

MBDA's Italian operation is also working on the MEADS missile defense system launched by the U.S., Germany and Italy. Bouvier said the Critical Design Review at system level should be completed by mid-year.

..........

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 08 Apr 2010 01:33

France suspends tech sale to Pak, Indian Mirage upgrade deal likely

07 Apr 8ak: France has suspended a Euro 6 to Euro 8 billion sale of high tech equipment to Pakistan. While most reports (Read Reuters) attribute this to Pakistan's inability to pay and pressure from India, StrategyPage provides another angle. They report that the U.S. has convinced France that any technology they will supply to Pakistan's JF-17's will end up in the hands of the Chinese and hence will be pirated across Chinese platforms. Corruption in Pakistan will ensure that no assurance they give the French will be worth the paper it is written on.

Strange, considering U.S. is giving Pakistan all its technology including the latest drones and F-16s. Also there is bad blood and unresolved issues between France and Pakistan.
.................

it was U.S. pressure that led to France suspending the deal for supplying key components for the Chinese JF-17 combat aircraft being used by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). While the exact contours of the upgrade package was not known, it was thought to include Thales RC400 fire-control radar and the MBDA Mica medium-range family of air-to-air missiles, as well as air-to-surface weaponry.

There is no doubt that France values its increasing relations with India. The French Ambassador had made it clear to a meeting of French companies during a dinner at Defexpo 2010 that France faces tough competition in India and they need to work hard and stick together to win it big in India. And it is working. India’s price negotiation committee has reportedly given the go-ahead to sign the US$2.2 billion deal with France for the upgrade of 52 Mirage-2000 aircraft. The formal signature on the deal is expected to be during the visit of French President Sarkozy to New Delhi this year.

....................

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 08 Apr 2010 04:59

x post

IOL: French govt has ruled that ATE will not be able to sell gear for JF-17, but DCNS will be allowed to make an imminent sale to TSP. HDW is also negotiating sales to India for 6 subs. HDW was supposed to sell U214s to TSP, but talks have broke down. DCNS is allowed to sell to TSP only because India has completed the purchase for scorpene's and looks like Delhi has made it clear it wont be buying anymore and no chance of sales to India.
A delegation of French officials and defense industry executives attended manoeuvres by the Pakistan Navy in the arabian sea. Several SM-39 Exocet missiels were fired.

A delegation from the Pakistan Navy is expected to accompany the Prime Minister Yousouf Gilani on a visit to Paris in the last week of April. Negotiations with Pakistan maybe complicated by Judicial and parliametary investgation into the Karachi attack that killed 11 DCNS employees.

Well done India.

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Apr 2010 08:59

Craig Alpert wrote:France suspends tech sale to Pak, Indian Mirage upgrade deal likely

The French are a very mercenary lot and at the end of the day I suspect the below dealing with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s precarious financial position would have been the dominant factor in going slow (Note: Going Slow

) on the deal.

X Posted:

arun wrote:The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has yet again made a “list”.

This time it has made it onto “The Worlds Riskiest Sovereign Debt” list put out by CMA Datavision in its “Global Sovereign Credit Risk Report: Ist Quarter 2010”.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is rated as the third most likely sovereign to default behind Venezuela and Argentina but ahead of Ukraine and Iraq.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is rated as having a 42.3 % probability of defaulting on its debt over the next 5 years {5 Year CPD (%)}.

See Page 3:

The Worlds Riskiest Sovereign Debt

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2010 09:38

the strategy of the euros is consistent - sell alternately to india and pak, with no overlap between major deals like agosta90, scorpene etc.

I hope atleast my son will see what I could not - a self reliant nation able to build whatever
we need to.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Apr 2010 17:41

Pak Army’s training aircraft crashes, pilot dead

PESHAWAR (PTI): A pilot was killed when a training aircraft of the Pakistani army crashed into fields on the outskirts of Peshawar on Thursday, police said. The aircraft from the army's aviation wing was on a routine training flight when it crashed in the Naguman area, they said.

There were no reports of damage or casualties on the ground.

Police said the crash occurred due to a technical fault.

Local residents said they had seen the aircraft's engine misfiring before it slammed into the fields.

An investigation team from the army inspected the crash site and removed the pilot's body.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 09 Apr 2010 19:07

Is paki weapons acquistion system smoother, efficient and faster than Indian one ?

Kavu · Post by **Kavu** » 09 Apr 2010 19:52

Chinmayanand wrote:Is paki weapons acquistion system smoother, efficient and faster than Indian one ?

Yes, without a doubt. And due credit must be given.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 09 Apr 2010 20:14

Hardly surprising, knowing that in Pakistan it is the military which calls the shots...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2010 22:33

they do not generally hold multi vendor trials. instead the selection committee and generals decide what is needed, approach the best vendor (who will pay most in kickbacks) among the equal quality pool and sign the contract.

there are no political lobbies out to score points, the kickback system is well polished through decades of use and everyone knows their place. those who make noise get a smashmouth slap.

have to say it works and generally delivers the best of what is available for them.

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Apr 2010 10:13

there are no political lobbies out to score points, the kickback system is well polished through decades of use and everyone knows their place. those who make noise get a smashmouth slap.

have to say it works and generally delivers the best of what is available for them.

Its actually scary for the vendor like in the DNS Augusta sub case where a Admiral hired a suicide bomber squad to hallal 11 DCN men( The Karachi bombing) because he didnt get his kickback. Different matter that DGSE ensured that the Admiral's legs were broken as a punishment.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 10 Apr 2010 12:05

sum wrote:
.....Different matter that DGSE ensured that the Admiral's legs were broken as a punishment.

I'm aware of the Karachi bombing that killed DCNS engineers, but when was the Admiral's leg broken? Any links?

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Apr 2010 22:26

aditp wrote: I'm aware of the Karachi bombing that killed DCNS engineers, but when was the Admiral's leg broken? Any links?

Was posted in BR itself long time back. Need to scan through the archives to get hold of that.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 11 Apr 2010 00:19

Wow... I haven't been active on the BR military forum in years but I'm overwhelmed at all the new developments. The Pakis have certainly been busy... this is not the same opponent we fought at Kargil 11 years ago. One of their more unsettling upgrades has been the PAF getting a world-class BVR capability (with the AIM-120 no less - the most proven and effective BVR missile ever built). That's a very significant milestone in an 8-9 year period full of milestones, where the Pakistani armed forces have increasingly caught up to us in every area where we'd previously enjoyed superiority.

We had a window of opportunity (from the late 90's through the early 10's) where Indian naval and air power both enjoyed a decisive lead over the Pakis in both quality and #'s. The Pakis didn't have such a potent arsenal of nuke-equipped ballistic missiles back in those days either (they relied mostly on aircraft-delivered atom bombs), which would have made them less willing to "press the button". And before 2001, they didn't enjoy American protection.

Back in those days, I was always saying on this forum that the time to strike Pakistan was now, that the window of opportunity would soon close forever. Now, after several years of neglect on our part while the Pakis have simultaneously engaged in an unprecented upgrade of their armed forces.... I think we all know the game is up. We're no longer in a position where we could carry out any kind of effective air campaign, blockade, or land invasion of Pakistan - that threat (which was once taken quite seriously) is now considered an empty one. Nobody on either side even seriously entertains the possibility any more.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2010 01:48

Y. Kanan wrote:Wow... I haven't been active on the BR military forum in years but I'm overwhelmed at all the new developments. The Pakis have certainly been busy... this is not the same opponent we fought at Kargil 11 years ago. One of their more unsettling upgrades has been the PAF getting a world-class BVR capability (with the AIM-120 no less - the most proven and effective BVR missile ever built). That's a very significant milestone in an 8-9 year period full of milestones, where the Pakistani armed forces have increasingly caught up to us in every area where we'd previously enjoyed superiority.

We had a window of opportunity (from the late 90's through the early 10's) where Indian naval and air power both enjoyed a decisive lead over the Pakis in both quality and #'s. The Pakis didn't have such a potent arsenal of nuke-equipped ballistic missiles back in those days either (they relied mostly on aircraft-delivered atom bombs), which would have made them less willing to "press the button". And before 2001, they didn't enjoy American protection.

While we no longer exclusively possess any technology in South Asia, if you factor the numbers the gap has widened. They go into raptures about the 18 block 50/52s that they're inducting, while the IAF is adding the same number of MKIs every six months.

Back in those days, I was always saying on this forum that the time to strike Pakistan was now, that the window of opportunity would soon close forever. Now, after several years of neglect on our part while the Pakis have simultaneously engaged in an unprecented upgrade of their armed forces.... I think we all know the game is up. We're no longer in a position where we could carry out any kind of effective air campaign, blockade, or land invasion of Pakistan - that threat (which was once taken quite seriously) is now considered an empty one. Nobody on either side even seriously entertains the possibility any more.

Well the military needs to be given a clear objective before committing them to a war. In '48, they were to push back the invaders from J&K, in '65 it was to thwart Op. Grandslam, '71, liberate Bangladesh, and in '99 expel the intruders. To quote Clausewitz, "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means".

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 12 Apr 2010 17:04

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... batics-740

PAF become the only AF in the world able to bomb targets from an incredible height

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 12 Apr 2010 17:36

^^ Is this a sarcastic post which I could not understand unfortunately?

I did,t see anywhere the article which says paf is the only AF in the world to do that feat. Moreover, this is nothing but pure puke DDM just to scare us, sdre's.

It is the incredible height of Pak's DDM-ism.

no fighter jet can even reach that height of 250km, forget about bombing

kulhari · Post by **kulhari** » 12 Apr 2010 19:08

For instance, the two F-16 flew at a height of 250km and at a speed of 480 knots to drop 84 bombs of 2000 pounds at designated targets.

Hain ji !!!! Since when F-16 has become a space craft????

Seems like Puki AF also follows Madrassa logic.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Apr 2010 19:23

250m/480 knots/Mk84 bombs/each 2000lb

even a B52 would have some trouble lifting 42 x 2000lb bombs

it is certainly a powerful and successful weapon, still used either inertly or as
the bomb part of guided weapons.

wiki:
The Mark 84 is capable of forming a crater 50 ft (15.2 m) wide and 36 ft (11 m) deep. It can penetrate up to 15 in (380 mm) of metal or 11 ft (3.3 m) of concrete, depending on the height from which it is dropped, and causes lethal fragmentation to a radius of 400 yards (366 m).

Many Mark 84s have been retrofitted with stabilizing and retarding devices to provide a precision guidance capabilities. They serve as the warhead of a variety of precision-guided munitions, including the GBU-10 and GBU-24 Paveway laser-guided bombs, GBU-15 electro-optical bomb, GBU-31 JDAM and Quickstrike[2] sea mines.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Apr 2010 21:23

For instance, the two F-16 flew at a height of 250km and at a speed of 480 knots to drop 84 bombs of 2000 pounds at designated targets.

Wow, have the Pakis invented the successor of the space shuttle, the space fighter?

arya · Post by **arya** » 12 Apr 2010 23:45

kulhari wrote:
For instance, the two F-16 flew at a height of 250km and at a speed of 480 knots to drop 84 bombs of 2000 pounds at designated targets.
Hain ji !!!! Since when F-16 has become a space craft????

Seems like Puki AF also follows Madrassa logic.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 13 Apr 2010 04:10

Does IAF has a counterpart to this Mk84 bomb?

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 14 Apr 2010 00:43

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8617843.stm

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Apr 2010 20:39

France arms sale to Pakistan held up

France's plan to sell 1.2 billion euro worth of military equipment for Pakistan's JF-17 combat aircraft has been held up, a source at President Nicolas Sarkozy's office says.

The French daily Le Monde reported earlier that France decided to suspend the sale of electronics and missiles -- the first section of a six billion euro contract -- under pressure from India and uncertainty over Pakistan's finances. "It's a deal that's not ready from the Pakistani side," the source said, without giving further details. "For now, the state of the dossier doesn't allow us to carry on with it."

A consortium made up of French company ATE and arms group Thales (which both have South African operations) as well as missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the equipment, Le Monde said. Thales declined to comment. France was also worried over insufficient protection of its technology, with Pakistan pushing to assemble the equipment on its soil, the paper said. In February, MBDA said it planned to upgrade India's Mirage 2000 fighters and was looking to expand in India.

Le Monde said talks over that upgrade also played a role in the decision.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2010 20:53

IAF does have 2000lb bombs iirc, though not so commonly used as the 1000lb and 250lb which seem to be ubiquitous. eg. Su30 has a giant bomb purchased from
rafale around 1500kg packed with around 10,000 steel balls for anti personnel use.

with better precision guidance 250lb can have lethal impact of old 1000lb. thats driving the move to SDB type small munitions....even UAV/UCAV can carry a few and loiter for days in future.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Apr 2010 18:18

Pak armed forces exhibit capability in targeting drones

The massive firepower show included effectively targeting an indigenously developed drone flying at a certain height and speed with the help of the radar directed Orlikon Anti Aircraft gun.

The Air Defence of the Pakistan Army has also exhibited the accurate targeting of an enemy aircraft with precision through shoulder-operated system of Anza-II Missiles, The Daily Times reports

....effectively targeting an "indigenously" developed drone flying at a "certain height and speed"....

Yawnnnnnn

jimit · Post by **jimit** » 20 Apr 2010 01:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBbWoG8j ... re=channel

Pakistan's ongoing military exercise.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 20 Apr 2010 04:44

jimit wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBbWoG8j ... re=channel

Pakistan's ongoing military exercise.

Those gunships look beautiful with those camouflaged tanks...

A prime example of how far the "Begging-Bowl" diplomacy can take a cash stripped and bankrupt nation...

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Apr 2010 16:29

x-posted from tsp thread, posting in full due to information contained
Pak's Lt Gen Shamim appointed chief of general staff-PTI via Hindustan Times

Lt Gen Khalid Shamim Wyne, who will be the most senior general at the time of Pakistan Army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani's scheduled retirement in November, has been appointed the Chief of General Staff.

The appointment coincided the change of commanders of three key army corps.

Wyne will replace Lt Gen Mohammad Mustafa Khan, who has been posted as commander of the Mangla-based Corps.

Lt Gen Rashad Mehmood will be the new commander of the Lahore-based Corps while the army's Adjutant General Lt Gen Javed Zia will be the new commander of the Quetta Corps.

Four three-star generals are due to retire on May 1.

They are Mangla Corps commander Lt Gen Nadeem Ahmed, Lahore Corps commander Lt Gen Ejaz Ahmad Bakshi, Lt Gen Ahsan Azhar Hayat, Director General of Training and Evaluation, and Lt Gen Sajjad Akram, deputy chief of the Earthquake Reconstruction and Rehabilitation Authority. (are they not going to get extended??)

Lt Gen Waheed Arshad has already been named as Hayat's successor. Lt Gen Haroon Aslam, who was recently promoted with two other three-star generals, is yet to get a posting.

The Dawn newspaper quoted its sources as saying there was a possibility that Rawalpindi Corps commander Lt Gen Tahir Mahmood could be posted as Adjutant General at the General Headquarters and Lt Gen Haroon Aslam could be made commander of the 10 Corps in Rawalpindi in his place.

Maj Gen Sajjad Ghani, General Officer Commanding at the 8th Infantry Division in Mangla, one of the two divisions conducting operations against the Taliban in Swat, has been appointed as Vice-Chief of General Staff.

Maj Gen Nasrullah Tahir Dogar, one of 29 brigadiers recently promoted to two-star generals, has been made General Officer Commanding in Pannu Aqil.

Maj Gen Rizwan Akhtar, another newly promoted officer, has been appointed as Director Organisation and Methods at the General Headquarters.

Maj Gen Mohammad Asif has been appointed as General Officer Commanding of the 8th Division. Maj Gen Saeed Aleem has been appointed as Deputy Quarter Master General and Maj Gen Farrukh Basheer as GOC of the Special Services Group.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Apr 2010 11:29

Pakistan signs $65 million deal for US warship

Pakistan has signed a $65 million deal with the United States for the "hot transfer" of refurbished American frigate USS McInerney by August 31. The contract for the "hot transfer" of the USS McInerney, a Perry-class guided missile frigate, was signed by senior officials of the two countries here on Tuesday. Under the agreement, the Pakistan Navy will take over the vessel on August 31.

The sale of the frigate, which would be inducted into the Pakistan Navy as PNS Alamgir at a ceremony in the US, was approved by the United States Congress in September 2008. Commissioned in 1979, the frigate would be handed over after a refurbishment that includes anti-submarine capability that has been paid for with the foreign military aid provided by the United States to friendly countries. On completion of the refurbishment in January next year, the vessel will sail to Pakistan to join the country's naval fleet.

Pakistani officials described the deal to acquire the warship a major "milestone" towards further strengthening the wide-ranging Pakistan-US relationship. "The successful completion of this contract will pave the way for acquisition of more vessels of the same class for the Pakistan Navy to raise a squadron of eight Perry-class frigates," a spokesman for the Pakistani embassy said. "This will greatly enhance the operational readiness of the Pakistan Navy," he added. In the last couple of years USS McInerney has been mainly involved in successful counter-drug operations.

Pakistan plans to raise a squadron of eight Perry Class Frigates. The frigate is being transferred under the Foreign Assistance ACT and the Arms Export Control Act in which Pakistan is considered a major non-NATO ally and is able to receive older unneeded US military equipment.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 21 Apr 2010 11:33

Its baffling how US is blatantly ignoring Indian sensitivities. Imagine if it gifted 8 of these frigates to Taiwan. China would've made a huge huge noise.

kit · Post by **kit** » 21 Apr 2010 11:51

Nikhil T wrote:Its baffling how US is blatantly ignoring Indian sensitivities. Imagine if it gifted 8 of these frigates to Taiwan. China would've made a huge huge noise.

Et tu Brutus ?!

US is just a fair weather friend.Let India choose its own destiny., no political "strategic" considerations or decisions please ! esp w r t MRCA .

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Apr 2010 12:08

I am sure that ship would be used for fighting the Taliban in landlocked Afghanistan.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Apr 2010 13:40

8 ships is quite a big deal , considering they are procuring Frigates from China.

These ships are big deal because its provided free by US , arm it with harpoon block 2/3 missile and its a very capable ship.

PN is steadily building its surface ships with least investment from US and China , while the money they have they are investing it wisely in building potent Submarine force , Smart Paki

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Apr 2010 15:12

^^, Plain simple logic here. US is trying to bleed India economically by the way of increasing Indian defense expenditure. A fairly simple way is giving refurbished/old products in large number to pukes. This automatically increases eyebrows in India which will then invest heavily in "NEW" high capability products by either importing (mostly) which needs to be paid in US $$$'s. So even if India does not buy weapons from USA, it needs $$$'s to pay from whomsoever it buys from. Purpose of US is solved, India keeps on investing in $$$'s and another fact is, USA knows that India dont have any option but to go after a Strategic Alliance with US because of headache with China. To play tactfully in this chessboard, GoI has to place utmost priority in solving all the outstanding border issues (except Tibet) asap and also increase trade links with China. Let some chinese companies operate in India in non-strategic areas. This will in return force china to look after its interests in India and not raise the tempo. Instead of competing cooperation should be the way forward or else we will keep on loosing...

India should also develop all the capabilities in-house and should gradually reduce any foreign dependence. Chinese did same by importing/cooperating in past but investing in developing its own weapons capability. There is no substitute for self-reliance.

ram_bharat · Post by **ram_bharat** » 21 Apr 2010 17:26

The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate USS McInerney was commissioned in 1979. Is a 31 yr old frigate really good enough to put up a fight against the Delhi class or the shivaliks or the Talwar class???

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Apr 2010 17:31

In defensive role Oliver Hazard Perry should not have any problem with the right equipment even though its old. We do operate older ships isnt it.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 21 Apr 2010 17:46

I can't even fathom as to how much they are starving their population so that they can spend millions upon millions of dollars on arms!