Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 23 Dec 2009 23:05

Because they lag behind the west and russia in EW suites, missiles and other aspects. This they will try to get from Porkis. Ship building is not high tech Industry by any stretch of imagination. Just because GOI and PSU shipyards are incompetent morons does not make ship building a technological breakthrough.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 23 Dec 2009 23:11

Rahul M wrote:we should congratulate the pakis for setting a record with the F-22P induction ! it is the first major new built surface ship in PN's history !

How much of a threat is this going to be for Indian Navy

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 23 Dec 2009 23:15

Ship building is not high tech Industry by any stretch of imagination.

i beg to differ.

vavinash wrote:Because they lag behind the west and russia in EW suites, missiles and other aspects.

they already have an access to the russian tech on missiles , sonars and other sensor suites through their purchases , in fact the yuan class is like a chinese remake of the kilo to which they are trying to incorporate AIP etc .

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 23 Dec 2009 23:28

Sagar G wrote:How much of a threat is this going to be for Indian Navy

On paper these are reasonably capable frigates. They carry a ASW heli, a rapid fire main gun, CIWS, HQ-7 SAM and C-802 anti-ship missiles. Some of them are Chinese copy of Russian weapons.

While a F22p may not be able to take on a P-15A, the F-22p is certainly miles improvement over Pak Navy's current rust buckets. Think of it as their navy equivalent of the Bandaar.

arun · Post by **arun** » 23 Dec 2009 23:40

Doubt cast on Pakistan's battle claims

West Point Report; Taliban said to have vacated Waziristan

Peter Goodspeed, National Post Published: Wednesday, December 23, 2009

While Pakistan's Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has claimed a military offensive in South Waziristan is over and successful, a new study published by the Combating Terrorism Center at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., is far less enthusiastic.

It suggests there is little evidence of heavy fighting in the area because "it appears most militants fled in the face of the government advance." ……………………

National ost

The referenced report, written by Rahimullah Yusufzai, is available in the December 2009 edition of CTC Sentinel:

Assessing the Progress of Pakistan’s South Waziristan Offensive

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Dec 2009 23:46

Anujan wrote:
Sagar G wrote:How much of a threat is this going to be for Indian Navy
On paper these are reasonably capable frigates. They carry a ASW heli, a rapid fire main gun, CIWS, HQ-7 SAM and C-802 anti-ship missiles. Some of them are Chinese copy of Russian weapons.

While a F22p may not be able to take on a P-15A, the F-22p is certainly miles improvement over Pak Navy's current rust buckets. Think of it as their navy equivalent of the Bandaar.

all true, but it still does not give PN any kind of superiority over IN. in a strength vs strength face-off PN will always lose to the much larger and capable IN. these boats would be little more than cannon fodder then.

a more prudent strategy would have been to invest in more subs, which is basically an asymmetric strategy. methinks this buy is due to the pressure of surface ships personnel of PN. submariners had the agosta, they needed something too.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 24 Dec 2009 00:09

Rahul-ji

The fact that PN will eventually buy new frigates is a given. Their Babur-class had fires, cracks with steel plates welded, stuff taken out and Chinese stuff put in -- it is a miracle that their current frigates even float.

Eventually PN will buy destroyers too, just like their AF eventually got AWACS and Refuelers.

I am not debating that PN is a match for IN even with (eventually 8 ) F22p. But they do carry SAM and AShMs and are more dangerous than what Pakis have in their arsenal right now. It will have an impact on our war planning.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Dec 2009 01:03

A few of Pakistan's Nuclear and Strategic sites - Google Earth pics

Pakistan Institute of Science and Technology (PINSTECH) Rawalpindi:
PARR-1 Research reactor, designed for highly enriched (90% uranium) fuel, designed and built in collaboration with the United States, commissioned in 1965, was raised from 5 MWt to 9 MWt and converted to low-enriched (20%) fuel in 1990. China assisted in fuel fabrication for the rebuilt and upgraded PARR-1 research reactor. PARR-I may have been used clandestinely to produce tritium for advanced nuclear weapons.
PARR-2 - training reactor, Pool-type, light-water, HEU, 27-30 kWt, designed and built in collaboration with the Chinese Institute of Atomic Energy (Beijing), went critical in late 1989.
New Labs Reprocessing Plant: Unsafeguarded facility for plutonium reprocessing. Recently doubled in size due to the addition of a new wing.
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/843/32588684.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Chashma Nuclear Complex
CHASHNUPP-1
300MW PWR
Supplied by:
Shanghai Nuclear Engineering Research and Design Institute(SNERDI)
China National Nuclear Corporation(CNNC)
East China Electric Power Design Institute(ECEPDI)
CHASNUPP-2
300MW PWR
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9519/48998325.jpg

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1072/69759298.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7340/13639057.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9768/75938762.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Khushab Nuclear Complex
Khusab Nuclear reactor
50 MWt, heavy water and natural uranium research reactor and Plutonium production reactor
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/8513/98886401.jpg

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/8052/66486122.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1888/52800537.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6982/36941191.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5164/58668264.jpg
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Karachi Nuclear Power Plant (KANUPP)
125 MW PHWR
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/605/97721423.jpg
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Uranium Enrichment Plants: Unsafeguarded facilities exist at the following sites.
Golra Sharif (Sector E-11 Islamabad)
Sihala - close to the police training academy, just outside Rawalpindi.
KRL - Kahuta

____________________________________________________________________________________________
Mines and Uranium processing facilities in and around Dera Ghazi Khan
Pakistan is opening several new mines for Uranium exploration. At least 4-5 different sites are being developed in addition to the earlier mines.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1712/82400166.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1112/99465562.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7919/23395887.jpg

Chemical Plants Complex: Uranium extraction plant, DGK. This plant is also undergoing rapid expansion to almost double it capacity.
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/2961/37718787.jpg

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6291/44361583.jpg

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/2176/10419114.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3610/25885561.jpg

There is a similar pilot scale Uranium Milling facility outside Lahore, called Atomic Energy Minerals Centre (AEMC)
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Pak-Arab Fertilizer Ltd. Multan
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5537/96387397.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sehwan Uranium mines, Sindh
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3548/14270101.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Isa Khel and Kulbul Khel Uranium Mines, Mianwali.
Close to Chashma
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/8719/10807948.jpg

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5986/39904066.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Khan Research Laboratories: Kahuta

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2006/20600982.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

N weapons Storage Sites:

National Defence Complex, Fatehjang

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/1985/81649557.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9817/14038631.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Close to Masroor PAFB, Karachi
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6081/94550283.jpg

Quetta

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1399/40774203.jpg

Kamra PAFB

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3853/65721767.jpg

Sargodha

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3031/47329043.jpg

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/1923/27441795.jpg

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7416/61488205.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

M-11 Missile storage sites

Dera Nawabshah

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7856/77652202.jpg

Shorkot Cantt, Jhang

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8012/76608656.jpg

Gujranwala

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1135/77952330.jpg

Taranawah Missile Complex

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5478/94146880.jpg

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1354/55934286.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9870/76525625.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Pakistan Ordinance Factories: Wah
Location of manufacture of key components of Nuclear weapons, Assembly of North Korean, Chinese missiles.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/2894/43964450.jpg
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Thal Firing Range

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/118/60354040.jpg

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 24 Dec 2009 01:50

Great work Gagan ji.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 24 Dec 2009 01:56

^^ yeah ,

also any pics of the kohat tunnel complex which might be a base for paki second strike capability , the mush-rat was bragging about ?

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 24 Dec 2009 02:06

-Deleted-

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 24 Dec 2009 02:12

Edited : Durgeshji has cleaned up his post..... My post is not relevant any more.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Dec 2009 00:07

Superb work Gagan.

How were the nuke storage sites identified?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Dec 2009 06:18

Err,
Press reports, FAS, Globalsecurity, googling.
There is plenty of info on the net. Random news reports which talk of an arms dump north of Quetta airport which is suspected to store nukes etc.

The three or four locations which I have not posted pictures of, I could not find any cross reference to on the web. The three uranium centrifuge cascades, and the lahore uranium mill. I have the approximate location, for example the one in lahore is in the area of kala shah kaku (close to muridke), there is another centrifuge in Sihala outside pindi, and one in Gorla Sharif in E-11 sector of Islamabad. Although I seem to have identified the buildings, I can't find a reference pinpointing its location. Anything, even a a general location, or a street address on the website, and it is possible to locate a place on google chacha.

For eg, this report in India Today.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... e+map.html

The info is out there, you just need to collect it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Dec 2009 06:25

Gagan - you are doing great work. Would it be possible to put a single placemark on each image that has the lat/long coordinates as well so they can be independently visited by anyone looking at your pics? Thx.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Dec 2009 06:32

I deliberately took out the lat and long from the images. But I'll very happily forward the google earth links.

atma · Post by **atma** » 25 Dec 2009 08:05

So I suppose about 40 precision strikes or missile attacks to take them out.. Hmmm....

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Dec 2009 08:34

Gagan wrote:I deliberately took out the lat and long from the images. But I'll very happily forward the google earth links.

Excuse my naivete but why so? If Pak itself doesn't mind, can GUBO and give US all they want to know, by all means you can post the lats and longs!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Dec 2009 13:57

Gagan wrote:I deliberately took out the lat and long from the images. But I'll very happily forward the google earth links.

Is it possible for you to save kmz file the one maintained by SOC of geimint blog.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Dec 2009 17:19

Here is the post at bbc.keyhole. Link
Thanks to Jagan and omlettebread for their initial work.

This file contains:
1. Pakistan Nuclear Sites
2. Pakistan Strategic Sites
3. Pakistan Airforce Bases.
Download link

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 26 Dec 2009 05:41

a nice illustration of f22p

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Dec 2009 08:54

X Posted.

Two serving officers of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan with the rank of Major have been implicated by the US’s FBI in funding Pakistani origin terrorist Daood Gilani aka David Coleman Headley.

The Majors of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan have been identified by the US’s FBI as Sameer Ali and Iqbal:

2 Pak Army officers gave Headley $25,000 for India trip: FBI dossier

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Dec 2009 08:55

Lilo,

Thanks.

I guess they gave a lot of importance to those life boats.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Dec 2009 09:02

arun wrote:X Posted.
2 Pak Army officers gave Headley $25,000 for India trip: FBI dossier

The analogy ofcourse is Mohd Atta getting the wire transfer from Omar Saeed Sheikh at the ISI Chief Lt Gen Mahmood Ahmed's behest.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 28 Dec 2009 10:49

Pakis fighting against F 22
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/f22-raptors-return-desert-training-middle-east
F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East[/url]

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Dec 2009 13:37

Nitesh wrote:Pakis fighting against F 22
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/f22-raptors-return-desert-training-middle-east
F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East[/url]

link doesn't work.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Dec 2009 13:48

first look at PAF's Saab Erieye AEW&C, taken at Basle during testing phase

image 1

image 2

image 3

image 4

image 5

image 6

images cross-posted from Keypub forum.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Dec 2009 18:15

Kartik wrote:
Nitesh wrote:Pakis fighting against F 22
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/f22-raptors-return-desert-training-middle-east
F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East[/url]
link doesn't work.

Worked for me!!!

Good for the PAF pilots that they got to face off against the F-22.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Dec 2009 20:44

Kartik wrote:first look at PAF's Saab Erieye AEW&C, taken at Basle during testing phase

image 1

image 2

image 3

image 4

image 5

image 6

images cross-posted from Keypub forum.

Strange they don't have the PAF markings on them, but nonetheless great pics... here is some more info on them along with the PAF IL-78's with their markings!
Pakistan Inducts First AEW&C

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 29 Dec 2009 22:15

Pakistani soldier sneaks into India, arrested

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Dec 2009 23:53

Craig Alpert wrote: Strange they don't have the PAF markings on them, but nonetheless great pics... here is some more info on them along with the PAF IL-78's with their markings!
Pakistan Inducts First AEW&C

oh, by the way, both those pics are photoshopped images. the second one of the IL-78 was found out to be a fake- they took an IAF Il-78, no less, from an airliners.net database and put in the background of the Himalayas. the actual PAF Il-78 has a greyish brown camouflage, not the IAF low-viz gray. that was seen when someone took an actual pic of the Il-78 when it landed at Karachi airport.

the first one must also be a fake since the Erieye was supplied with Saab markings very recently..I find it highly improbable that they'd paint on PAF markings and then fly it and take PR shots and supply it to journos in such a short time..as far as I know, they're pics from the PAF calendar, published before they even flew in PAF markings. anyway, the pictures of the induction ceremony of the Saab-2000 AEW&C show that there is a huge "PAKISTAN AIR FORCE" written along that balance beam array.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 30 Dec 2009 00:32

Kartik wrote: as far as I know, they're pics from the PAF calendar, published before they even flew in PAF markings.

Man the PAF is light years ahead in PR wrt to IAF... If that is indeed true, would sure like to get my hands on'em calendar!

and yes I've see the "P...A...F..." written in the front of the IL-78, I was reffering to the Flag and the round insignias on the tail, wings & fins, but in anycase you are correct about the (paf) IL-78 turning out to be fake, not sure about the 1st one though! Should have known better!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Dec 2009 00:50

Craig Alpert wrote:
Kartik wrote: as far as I know, they're pics from the PAF calendar, published before they even flew in PAF markings.
Man the PAF is light years ahead in PR wrt to IAF... If that is indeed true, would sure like to get my hands on'em calendar!
and yes I've see the "P...A...F..." written in the front of the IL-78, I was reffering to the Flag and the round insignias on the tail, wings & fins, but in anycase you are correct about the (paf) IL-78 turning out to be fake, not sure about the 1st one though! Should have known better!

are you a member of Keypubs forum ? some Paki poster there has posted pics from their induction ceremony, and the aircraft looks different from that picture shown in the article, which was supplied by none other than the PAF itself. their PR dept. was working hard on creating PS images, but forgot to talk to those who were designing the camouflage- so it happened that they don't match.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Dec 2009 01:16

That insignia on the Saab-2000's tail is a "SAAB" insignia.

No where in those pics does it say PAF anywhere. This was a plane in testing in ouirope, without any PAF markings.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 31 Dec 2009 07:34

Army to seek 20 SuperCobra helicopters from US

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Army is likely to seek US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) to acquire 20 SuperCobra helicopters to reinforce its fleet of ageing Cobra attack helicopters, which are being extensively used in operations against terrorists in tribal regions.

...The helicopters alone, it said, would cost at least $500 million and the total acquisition would cost up to $1 billion.

The report says that SuperCobra attack helicopters will not be available for foreign customers till 2015. ...

The report says that Pakistan is likely to maintain its current force of Cobra helicopters, supplemented by armed Bell 412 aircraft. Pakistan currently has 32 Cobra attack helicopters. ...

However, the US government is currently spending $75 million from the Pakistan Counter-insurgency Funds to update a portion of the existing Cobra fleet.

Pakistan army has received two squadrons of Cobras since 1983, later upgraded with the ‘C-NITE thermal imaging’ package.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 31 Dec 2009 19:29

x-cross post from the IA THREAD
Indian Army's two-front doctrine betrays hostile intent: Pak

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has said that Indian Army's new military doctrine including scenarios such as a two-front simultaneous war with both China and Pakistan "betrays a hostile intent" and a "jingoistic mindset".

Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said in a statement that the Indian Army's new military doctrine "betray a hostile intent as well as a hegemonic and jingoistic mindset which is quite out of step with the realities of our time".

Pakistan is prepared to defend itself in the face of all contingencies, Basit said. "No one should ever underestimate our capability and determination to foil any nefarious designs against the security of Pakistan," he said.

Indian Army officials have said that the doctrine, which is reviewed every five years at the Army's Shimla-based Training Command, will now include scenarios such as a two- front simultaneous war with both China and Pakistan.

Basit called on the world community to take "due notice of such statements".

He added: "Pakistan remains mindful of the threats posed to its security as well as the importance of promoting peace in South Asia."

The spokesman also told a weekly news briefing at the Foreign Office that Pakistan's desire for peace should not be mistaken for weakness.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 31 Dec 2009 21:49

Clearly the notion of a more prepared India is causing a lot of brown matter ejaculation in the khaki musharraf's

Ananya · Post by **Ananya** » 01 Jan 2010 00:50

the Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) system purchased from Sweden is actually a mid-range technology, better than the rival French technology currently in use by the Pakistan Navy but inferior to the much-sought-after-but-denied American Awacs. Second, it is not clear yet to what purpose the new Swedish systems will be put

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... ms--il--04

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 01 Jan 2010 01:22

from above link...!

War planners here in Pakistan are always keen to highlight that they have ‘realistic’ assumptions and are ‘aware’ of the economic constraints of the country and therefore understand the impossibility and undesirability of matching India weapon for weapon in the military department.

I hope...If not now...someday they will understand this fact....!

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 02 Jan 2010 17:06

Rear Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila SI(M) promoted to rank of Vice Admiral

ISLAMABAD: The Government of Pakistan has announced the promotion of Rear Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila SI(M) to the rank of Vice Admiral and Commodore Zafar Mahmood Abbasi SI(M) to the rank of Rear Admiral with immediate effect, says a handout issued by the Pakistan Navy....