Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Nov 2011 11:08

Acharya wrote:
Ashutosh Malik wrote:Mr. Ravi Rikhye in orbat.com on the latest tamasha about Pakistan Nuclear weapons.

Pakistani N-warheads zapping around the highways and byways? Who comes up with this stuff? Atlantic Magazine has a a video interview http://t.co/GfdrvoZV where a gentleman says that to keep the US from seizing its N-warheads the Pakistanis are moving them around on the road. To avoid drawing attention, they are using ordinary trucks without protection. Big danger, says this person, because if AQ could get a hold of a schedule, they could seize a truck.
This is good and right kind of questions
The entire senario is for creating the image of 'nuclear Flashpoint' which they want to create into a real picture with this kind of news

In fact the news of unprotected warhead moving around may well be correct. That is the only way to move them. But releasing the news is to tell Pakis "We are watching unprotected transport as well - so be careful when you move them next"

But why has everyone missed (or failed to mention) a significant bit of info from that Atlantic article. Why has that been mentioned at all? Does anyone know what I am talking about?

Will come back on this later...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Nov 2011 16:10

these are all modes of arm twisting and making the pakis lose face to get what co-operation the US wants in afpak border.

any benefits/downsides to india are only incidental in the US games.

manum · Post by **manum** » 07 Nov 2011 20:16

nevin · Post by **nevin** » 08 Nov 2011 10:34

^^^
nice documentary.

a nation built on a lie,living on its knees,propelled by hatred and fear: just wonder how long its gonna last and who all are it taking with when it implodes. a democratic,peaceful pakistan as our neighbour is a myth. it would never happen, like this 'MFN' fiasco last week has shown.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Nov 2011 11:45

Pakistan LoC build-up worries panel

Looks like something is cooking across the Border, I we keep a close watch and ready for any dirty games they may be planning.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 08 Nov 2011 13:05

^^ "diya jab bujne wala hota hai tab ek bar jor se phadphadata hai",death of pakistan is imminent both militarily and economically it is not a matter of if but when. Till now they have begged borrowed and stolen to survive, now everyone has shut doors to these creepy crawler species known as pakis

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 13 Nov 2011 20:09

Pakistan offers cut-price fighter jet

"You can buy three of our aircraft for one F-16," Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar told Reuters at the Dubai Air Show, where the aircraft is being displayed.

He said that the producer, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, was not able to keep pace with the requirements of the air force.

He said the development of the aircraft was not targeted at archrival India.

"India need not worry -- it's not India-specific. We are building very close relations with India."

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 13 Nov 2011 22:35

Manish_P wrote:Pakistan offers cut-price fighter jet

"You can buy three of our aircraft for one F-16," Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar told Reuters at the Dubai Air Show, where the aircraft is being displayed.

He said that the producer, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, was not able to keep pace with the requirements of the air force.

He said the development of the aircraft was not targeted at archrival India.

"India need not worry -- it's not India-specific. We are building very close relations with India."

Does it mean we have to sell them SU-30MKI under MFN status?

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 13 Nov 2011 23:46

rajanb wrote:
Does it mean we have to sell them SU-30MKI under MFN status?

Pakis don't have money to buy anything . So, MMS might have to gift it as goodwill measure along with his dove card at next Mumbai like "accident".

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Nov 2011 11:33

Manish_P wrote:Pakistan offers cut-price fighter jet

"You can buy three of our aircraft for one F-16," Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar told Reuters at the Dubai Air Show, where the aircraft is being displayed.

He said that the producer, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, was not able to keep pace with the requirements of the air force.

He said the development of the aircraft was not targeted at archrival India.

"India need not worry -- it's not India-specific. We are building very close relations with India."

Are there 3 squadrons of JF-17 THundaar?? For a new aircraft, it has hardly taken time for IOC, FOC etc. and no public information on it clearing milestones unlike Indian, Russian, European and American aircrafts.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 14 Nov 2011 12:21

How about a Arab war like ambushes over Thar and kashir with Jf17 Vs MKI

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 14 Nov 2011 12:26

^^^
Well one crashed about an hour ago. Hopefully it is a Bundaar and has obtained the FOC for the ejection seat.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 14 Nov 2011 12:32

Anujan wrote:^^^
Well one crashed about an hour ago. Hopefully it is a Bundaar and has obtained the FOC for the ejection seat.

The ejection seat worked. Must be an F-16!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Nov 2011 14:34

DUBAI: China, Pakistan tout affordability of JF-17

Five countries in the Middle East are evaluating the JF-17 as an affordable replacement fighter alongside China's Peoples Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

The sales opportunities for the programme were described by the head of the Pakistan air force, Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman. He was speaking at a press briefing hosted by the PAF and the China Aviation Technology/Import-Export Corporation (CATIC), the government-owned company responsible for Beijing's aerospace defence exports.

He added that the five countries could send pilots to Pakistan to evaluate the single-engine fighter.

He also said he visited the PLAAF in China recently, where he discussed the programme with his Chinese counterparts.

It has long been known that the PLAAF has followed the JF-17 programme closely, but most industry observers have shared the view that it prefers to focus on replacing older aircraft with the J-10A, J-10B and Shenyang J-11.

ACM Suleman and the other presenters placed great emphasis on their claims about the JF-17's affordability. They claim the aircraft is two to three times cheaper than rivals on a flyaway basis, and that the aircraft is also inexpensive to support.

Separately, PAF Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, deputy chief project director (operations) for the JF-17 programme, said there is a potential market of around 4,000-5,000 aircraft as air forces seek to replace Mikoyan MiG-21s, MiG-23s, MiG-29s and Northrop F-5s.

"There is no plane that gives this much capability at this cost," added Air Cdre Mahmood.

He said that in PAF service the aircraft has completed 10,000 sorties. The PAF has two active squadrons of 16-18 aircraft each, with the third squadron to be activated in the coming months. The PAF has confirmed it will buy 150 aircraft, but this could run to 250.

He said about half of the airframe and more than half of the avionics are produced in Pakistan.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 14 Nov 2011 16:05

News trickling as JF 17 is crashed just received twitter of Shiv aroor

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 14 Nov 2011 16:21

livefist: Very tragic news about the PAF JF-17 crash today, killing its pilot. But I hope this doesn't affect the JF-17's schedule at #DXB11.

So the ejection seat didn't work after all .....

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 14 Nov 2011 16:24

SKrishna wrote:
livefist: Very tragic news about the PAF JF-17 crash today, killing its pilot. But I hope this doesn't affect the JF-17's schedule at #DXB11.
So the ejection seat didn't work after all .....

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/pakis ... 111114.htm

A Pakistan Air Force jet, believed to be a frontline JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, crashed during a training flight in Punjab [ Images ] province on Monday, killing the pilot.

A PAF spokesman said a "jet aircraft, while on a routine training mission, crashed due to technical malfunction near Attock" in Punjab.

The spokesman said the pilot was "fatally injured".

There were no reports of loss of civilian life or property on the ground.

The PAF ordered a board of inquiry to determine the cause of accident.

Though the PAF spokesman did not identify the type of aircraft that was involved in the accident, several TV news channels and websites that track the Pakistani military said a JF-17 Thunder jet had crashed.

The pilot, Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain, was killed as his parachute failed to open after he bailed out of the aircraft, Geo News channel reported.

The aircraft crashed in a mountainous area.

The pilot's body was found about two kilometres from the site of the crash, the channel reported.

Pakistan has been promoting the JF-17, which it developed jointly with China, as a low cost combat aircraft for developing countries.

It has showcased the jet at the ongoing Dubai [ Images ] Air Show.

The PAF has equipped two squadrons with the JF-17 and plans to raise another squadron by early next year

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Nov 2011 16:31

Is there anyway now that Pakis are marketing the JF-17, we can friendly nations to evaluate the aircraft and find out the required details about it?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 14 Nov 2011 16:34

One trial unit in China and a trial unit + a squadron in Pakistan. Around 30 odd in service. The trial unit converted to a full squadron sometime back. By Pakistani logic that translates to three squadrons. In 1965, they renamed the then PNS Babur to Jehangir, and since then claim two ships served, and even shelled Dwarka.

The unit cost will come down for the Pakistanis every time someone buys it. That is how Pakistanis got F-7 later versions unit costs reduced - by ensuring sales to others. The Chinese were buying Su-27 and producing F-7 for the Pakistanis.

Respects to the departed, condolences to the family, the investigation report will be eagerly awaited.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Nov 2011 16:37

Ouch. Bandar down. Cloned Cheeni ejection seat shaheedizes a PAF pilot.

.

Surely, the PAF idiots should focus on getting that damn Cheeni rust bucket tested fully before painting it green and calling it 100% Pindigenous and flying it in airshows ,and oh, atleast import a decent ejection seat and fit it in.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Nov 2011 16:40

vina wrote:Ouch. Bandar down. Cloned Cheeni ejection seat shaheedizes a PAF pilot. .

Surely, the PAF idiots should focus on getting that damn Cheeni rust bucket tested fully before painting it green and calling it 100% Pindigenous and flying it in airshows ,and oh, atleast import a decent ejection seat and fit it in.

Isnt it a dream for person who joins PAF to be Shaheed? So why waste money on good ejection seats, infact the rest of the fleet should try and join the PAF pilot in his martyrdom.

steve · Post by **steve** » 14 Nov 2011 16:44

FIRST PAKISTAN J 17 AIRCRAFT CRASH : PILOT KILLED

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.

According to PAF spokesman, pilot Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain ejected successfully but the parachute failed to open properly. There were no reports of damage as the crash site is a mountainous region.

Rescue teams reached the site soon after the incident while an investigation board has been set up to investigate the crash.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 14 Nov 2011 17:11

News Flash: Pakistan has revised its JF17 offer. Now you can buy "two" JF17 in the price of one F16.

nits · Post by **nits** » 14 Nov 2011 19:42

^^ That was quite fast...

News in Morning - PAF inducts two J-17 squadrons

- I am shivering; what will India do now... ?

News in Evening - J-17 Crash...

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 14 Nov 2011 19:45

^^^ Pilot Ejected

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Nov 2011 20:13

X Post dealing with the JF-17 crash from the TSP thread.

shiv wrote:
Aditya_V wrote: Only 1 has crashed so far, that still is a good record.
"Good record" is a judgment reached from hours flown and serviceability. At one extreme, if you keep an aircraft on the ground it will never crash and that would constitute a "fantastic" record , so such a judgment cannot be arrived at without the missing data.

Per an article by Thierry Dubois the claim is that the JF-17 fleet has clocked 10,000 flight hours. Check out the upgrade path of the JF-17 in the article as well:

China-Pakistan JF-17 Fighter Slated for Block-2 Upgrades

Dubai Air Show » November 14, 2011

by Thierry Dubois

……………. The in-service fleet has logged a total of 10,000 flight hours with the PAF …………….

AIN Online

Those 10,000 flying hours of the JF-17 have been reportedly clocked by two squadrons :

Pak raises two squadrons equipped with JF-17 Thunder jets

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 14 Nov 2011 20:34

^^^^ Either it is time for major overhaul of the two squadrons or the Bandaar is a Wondaar or expect more crashes.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Nov 2011 21:03

X Posting Shiv's post from the TSP thread:

shiv wrote:
arun wrote: Those 10,000 flying hours of the JF-17 have been reportedly clocked by two squadrons :

Pak raises two squadrons equipped with JF-17 Thunder jets
One accident in 10,000 flying hours is bad. That translates to 10 crashes per 100,000 flying hours.

Now lookee what the Pakis say about the IAF

http://siyasipakistan.wordpress.com/200 ... the-world/
The India Air Force has the worst crash record in the world India, using mostly Russian aircraft, has an accident rate of 6-7 per 100,000 hours flown (compared to 4-5 for all NATO air forces.)
Pakis now hold the record, using the Chinese Junk Fighter 17. Congratulations.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Nov 2011 21:24

i wonder of the parachute was british or chinese. the ejection seat is supposed to have a small drag parachute to make it upright in the air and slow it down and automatic sensors are supposed to release the pilot and deploy his parachute ... to cover for the pilot being blacked out or injured. its all supposed to be automatic once the ejection is done.

obviously cut rate engineering and shoddy 'startup mode' testing to meet timelines and h&d is not good for health.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 14 Nov 2011 21:32

Austin wrote:DUBAI: China, Pakistan tout affordability of JF-17

"There is no plane that gives this much capability at this cost," added Air Cdre Mahmood.

He said that in PAF service the aircraft has completed 10,000 sorties. The PAF has two active squadrons of 16-18 aircraft each, with the third squadron to be activated in the coming months. The PAF has confirmed it will buy 150 aircraft, but this could run to 250.

And where mai baap will the money for these come from? First make payments for the Saab erieye.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Nov 2011 22:06

Singha wrote:i wonder of the parachute was british or chinese. the ejection seat is supposed to have a small drag parachute to make it upright in the air and slow it down and automatic sensors are supposed to release the pilot and deploy his parachute ... to cover for the pilot being blacked out or injured. its all supposed to be automatic once the ejection is done.

obviously cut rate engineering and shoddy 'startup mode' testing to meet timelines and h&d is not good for health.

Singha, one reason for parachute not opening is lack of atlitude (low altitude eject) with the aircraft already in descent. That could happen with a bird hit. Or violent loss of control from a catastrophic failure - less likely IMO

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 14 Nov 2011 22:08

Sorry Fizaiya's brave pilots. First you are made to pilot next to trash second rate maal an on top of it the ejection seat is also bad, there shall be nothing worse than what you are going through. Look at the ejection seats instead of Martin Baker you might see Martin Bake dont get into such planes please.

steve · Post by **steve** » 14 Nov 2011 22:18

Pakistan J 17 Crash Pics

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Nov 2011 00:07

The only part Tejas shares with JF-17 is the Martin Baker Mk16 ejection seat, as also with Typhoon and Rafale. The Chinese offer a choice between the Russian K36 or MB, and Pakistanis chose MB. They also use MB in their earlier F-7s.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 15 Nov 2011 00:21

From LiveFist

Sqn Ldr Muhammad Hussain at Farnborough 2010.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Nov 2011 00:26

Now I have a doubt about this 10,000 hours for the JF-17 thingy-

Their ACM Rao Qamar stated that it has flown 10,000 sorties- that doesn't need to translate to 10,000 hours at all, not for a fighter that isn't yet capable of in-flight refuelling. The average sortie duration for a JF-17 class fighter would be more likely to be in the 30-45 mins range, which would translate to around 6000-7000 hours total. Quite a bit of a leg-up over our Tejas Mk1 thanks to its entering service in significant numbers.

I would look forward to reading the accident investigation report- but wait, this is Pakistan we're talking about, so there won't be any accident investigation report and their media isn't going to go to town blasting the JF-17 for its first crash.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Nov 2011 02:46

A tragic loss of a pilot no matter if he was a Paki one and from reports an experienced pilot.Shiv has made some pertinent points about the crash,bird strike or what? Ejector seat design has been some of the most difficult to engineer,MB the best of the west and we saw the Russian equiv. perform a virtuoso zero-zero performance at a Paris air show some years ago.

Whatever the reason for the aircraft to crash,the failure of the Chinese ejector (should be renamed "terminator"?) seat ,(or was it actuallya an MB one as Tsarkar says?) underscores that ancient Chinese adage.....
......"good thing come no cheap and cheap thing come no good" .
That should be the sticker that the "Thunder" dragon carries at Dubai!

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 Nov 2011 07:41

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

Head of the Punjabi dominated Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman discloses that the Air Force he heads carried out some 5,500 sorties in which 10,600 bombs targeting the Pathan / Pashtun minority were carried out.

Only in a country like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where the contempt of the Armed Forces for civilians is high will we have the head of the Air Force bragging about the use of a weapon that clearly represents excessive use of force besides being known to contribute a fair degree to collateral damage, namely Air Power:

Air force dropped 10,600 bombs in two years: Qamar

niran · Post by **niran** » 15 Nov 2011 08:03

abhishekm wrote: So the ejection seat didn't work after all .....

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/pakis ... 111114.htm

A Pakistan Air Force jet, believed to be a frontline JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft, crashed during a training flight in Punjab [ Images ] province on Monday, killing the pilot.

A PAF spokesman said a "jet aircraft, while on a routine training mission, crashed due to technically inapt handling near Attock" in Punjab.

The spokesman said the pilot was "fatally injured".(English translation for uneducated "Dead")

There were no reports of loss of civilian life or property on the ground.

The PAF ordered a board of inquiry to determine the cause of accident.

Though the PAF spokesman did not identify the type of aircraft that was involved in the accident, several TV news channels and websites that track the Pakistani military said a JF-17 Thunder jet had crashed.

The pilot, Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain, was killed while performing his daily in-flight prayers causing the aircraft crash in a mountainous area. Rigorous and vigorous investigation have shown that the pilot jumped from the craft when he remembered his missed prayer forgetting to done his parachute.
The pilot's body was found about two kilometres from the site of the crash, the channel reported.

Pakistan has been promoting the JF-17, which it developed jointly with China, as a low cost combat aircraft for developing countries.

It has showcased the jet at the ongoing Dubai Air Show.

The PAF has equipped two squadrons with the JF-17 and plans to raise another squadron by early next year

there you have it, breaking NEWS of the crash and the crash report.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 15 Nov 2011 08:07

niran wrote:
abhishekm wrote: So the ejection seat didn't work after all .....

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/pakis ... 111114.htm

The pilot, Squadron Leader Muhammad Hussain, was killed while performing his daily in-flight prayers causing the aircraft crash in a mountainous area. Rigorous and vigorous investigation have shown that the pilot panicked when he saw mountain ahead so jumped while forgetting
to done his parachute.
there you have it, breaking NEWS of the crash and the crash report.

Is this a joke?