Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

sum · Post by **sum** » 23 Aug 2011 13:29

As has been argued by Rodney Jones, Pakistan need not resort to the nuclear option to counter India’s Cold Start doctrine since the results of the Azm-e-Nau III military exercises held in 2009-10 suggest that its conventional defences alone are fully capable of resisting a shallow penetration as envisaged by the Cold Start doctrine

Is this true?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Aug 2011 13:38

sum wrote:
As has been argued by Rodney Jones, Pakistan need not resort to the nuclear option to counter India’s Cold Start doctrine since the results of the Azm-e-Nau III military exercises held in 2009-10 suggest that its conventional defences alone are fully capable of resisting a shallow penetration as envisaged by the Cold Start doctrine
Is this true?

Thats where the F-16 armed with C-5 Amraam makes the difference, when Cold Start was originally thought off recently after Kargil where the PAF had to basically turn and burn when a BVR Mig-29, M-2K turned up.

The 500 Amraam would make sure IAF took time to take care of the PAF threat which would expose army columns to arial assualt from PAF.

Thats why the Pakis wanted and got the Block 52's and the Block 40 upgrade while our Netas slept regarding upgrading the IAF and thwarting such Sales.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 23 Aug 2011 13:56

maybe, TSP ability to fight in a the very short window of 48-72 hours would be good as they have a shorter logistics network and distances to the border, not to mention air assets which would pose a problem for IA advance , at least in the 72 hour stated window.

Their problem has been obvious and I'm sure India has taken notice wrt the long term deployment of Army, Navy and AF. I'm certain our armed forces will also look at a repeat of Op Parakram with heavy involvement of IAF and IN. Stretch TSP to breaking point economically as the cost of maintaining troops in a state of readiness is very high and the greater the opposing forces the bigger the expenditure. Air interdiction of logistical lines like Railways, Roads, crucial bridges to create a massive re-supply problem for PA as well as sustained interruption of TSP Naval traffic (if not blockade).

A high intensity shooting match with quick interjection by world powers is a TSP wet dream where they can declare that brave forces of allah have dettered the non-believers blah blah blah, but, I doubt they can hold for more than a month in a low intensity conflict with sustained Naval and Air pressure and the threat of Army's advance when resources run thin.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Aug 2011 14:00

even with BVR capable F16's, PAF can at best impede but not greatly alter the impact of a full Indian assault
going nuclear for them remains the only 'viable' option tactically
but suicidal strategically
but jarnails are known for their tactical brilliance...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Aug 2011 14:16

Lalmohan wrote:even with BVR capable F16's, PAF can at best impede but not greatly alter the impact of a full Indian assault
going nuclear for them remains the only 'viable' option tactically
but suicidal strategically
but jarnails are known for their tactical brilliance...

They belive by buying time international forces like previous conflicts will interfere on thier behlaf and the status quo will remain unchanged.

The essence of why cold start was thought of was that TSP will be punished before the international community can intervene like in December 2001.

James B · Post by **James B** » 23 Aug 2011 14:18

sum wrote:
As has been argued by Rodney Jones, Pakistan need not resort to the nuclear option to counter India’s Cold Start doctrine since the results of the Azm-e-Nau III military exercises held in 2009-10 suggest that its conventional defences alone are fully capable of resisting a shallow penetration as envisaged by the Cold Start doctrine
Is this true?

Here is the article in TFT by Rodney James

Pakistan’s answer to Cold Start?

Pakistan's conventional defences alone are fully capable of repelling or flaying the quick but shallow penetrations Cold Start envisages. Besides, the Indian Army's ability to generate Cold Start IBG formations is incomplete and moving forward at a glacial pace. The concept is not operational yet

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Aug 2011 14:24

the only real defensive depth of the pak army is 20 million jehadis with aks and rpgs dug into berms on the rajasthan and punjab borders willing to die fighting whilst their uniformed brothers downhill ski to the rear and into afghanistan to save their musharafs

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 23 Aug 2011 16:07

In as much the PA tactics is concerned; the foremost of them will be to bogged down the advancing IA force within sustainable depth of the IB/LOC....PA will have multiple options in its hand to execute the plans....

1. To rapidly escalate the conflict to target the civilians through missiles.
2. To use the irregulars to constantly harass the supply line of the IA and to push them directly into the Indian heartland to create some form of flanking.
3. The masterstroke will be to call PLA division at strategic choke points enroute the IA path...If India does not formally declare war against China...will they going to hit the PLA division?
4.Completely outsourcing the battle to the irregulars...in as much TSPA is not a war fighting army.....its an armed group to maintain the grip over the land of Indus.
5.They will try to save as much as possible of the TSPA assets to use it against any internal dissent after the war is over....
6.The nuclear threat and its use will be dependent on how much jihadised the controller of the weapons will be....It is safe to say that under the emergency situation the chain of commands will break down.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Aug 2011 16:11

we must assume that 99% of pakjabi tanzeems will rally to the call and run behind green robed djinns on camels towards the IB with ak phyrr on a glorious trip towards their 72's

not so sure about the pashtun tanzeems, they might try to secure their positions on the east of the durand line...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Aug 2011 19:16

20 million tanzeem students armed with ak47s ? thats a joke - at best they could likely mobilize maybe 30K northern area tribal levies and 15k plains pakjabi terrorists who know how to use a gun and some form of tactics. thats not a whole lot - one division, and they would have nowhere near the staying power, training and logistics of a regular PA division. these could form some units to guard logistical tail and help patrol lightly threatened areas - at best. wouldnt last 15 mins in a stand up fight against divisional/corps assets of a regular army.

we should really track the growth and re-equipment if any of regular PA divisions and armed tribal scout levies.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 23 Aug 2011 20:12

Singha wrote: thats not a whole lot - one division, and they would have nowhere near the staying power, training and logistics of a regular PA division. these could form some units to guard logistical tail and help patrol lightly threatened areas - at best. wouldnt last 15 mins in a stand up fight against divisional/corps assets of a regular army.

My 2 paise on spending any resources on invaders officially in any order:

Indians do not have to offer legit battle on demand, thus creating a chance, however small, of some legit gains by uncivilized invaders. One has to defend enemy within borders by Guerrilla tactics only, according to me, and harass by all means possible; treat everyone in kind, and arm the locals so that the barbarians would find it extremely discouraging to cross border, too.

It is wise, according to me, to not offer battles on demand, or any form of legitimacy at all. I would like to quote Shivaji on this: from A blog post on Shivaji (part 2 of the blog)

"It is true that I've deceived many of my enemies. Can you show an instance where I deceived a friend?"

This is mark of a gentleman. Fearless to cheat invaders and steadfast with friends.

If these people are our enemies, why extend these any legitimacy and not harass them on Bharatbhumi?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Aug 2011 20:17

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Aug 2011 20:44

so vishwak, should we dismantle the armoured corps and artillery and reconfigure everyone with ak47's and rpg's and have them hide in forests and jungles for the forseeable future?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 23 Aug 2011 21:07

Lalmohan wrote:so vishwak, should we dismantle the armoured corps and artillery and reconfigure everyone with ak47's and rpg's and have them hide in forests and jungles for the forseeable future?

Oh no, just saying that invaders should be treated with utmost contempt is all. I first of all find myself at sea in the details. So just suggesting a thread of logic. That is all.

The 'invader' nomenclature is absent in public discourse is somewhat strange.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Aug 2011 21:17

whenever india has been strong she has not been invaded. even genghiz khan stopped short of invading india after overrunning the khwarazim empire. whenever india has looked weak and fractious, invaders have come - whether over the khyber and bolan or across the seas

guerilla warfare is not a winning strategy, it is only useful in tieing down an army of occupation and inflicting losses on it. the real victory happens in a different dimension - typically economic or the arrival of a more pressing problem.

to answer your previous question - what are the modern forts? they are our armoured divisions and strike corps that are positioned on our western and northern borders.

i hope that no indian has to fight a guerilla war again against an invader

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Aug 2011 21:48

A simplistic view !
Why not just fight the air battle onlee for short period?Keep Harassing them to the point of substantial depleting of both planes and arnaments. AFAIK, it can take couple of years before they recover in air, thus exposed to CSD decision by India in that time period.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Aug 2011 13:36

Lalmohan wrote:i hope that no indian has to fight a guerilla war again against an invader

Why discount Guerrilla warfare as an option? Unless we are comfortable about it in India, including in public discourse, will Indians be able to fight Guerrilla on foren lands when Indians have to?

Who are today's invaders, aren't they just across the border ready to run all over India, be it on this border, that border or any other border? Are invaders not across sea borders? Americans can come by the sea these days too, halfway across the world, when some Jaichand in India could cry for help.

IIRC, a car in the mirror is nearer than it appears.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Aug 2011 13:41

vishwak - please heed rahulm's advice and do some more reading on military matters

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Aug 2011 13:47

Lalmohan wrote:vishwak - please heed rahulm's advice and do some more reading on military matters

Ok. The book mentioned by someone already, 81709 45259 ISBN, A Military History of Medieval India by Maj. Gen. Gurcharan Singh wasn't available in nearest crossword, will check once more. Any other suggestions welcome too.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Aug 2011 13:50

start with ancient india by same author first

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 24 Aug 2011 14:27

vishvak wrote:Ok. The book mentioned by someone already, 81709 45259 ISBN, A Military History of Medieval India by Maj. Gen. Gurcharan Singh wasn't available in nearest crossword, will check once more. Any other suggestions welcome too.

Please check at Flipkart

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Aug 2011 20:06

Green on Green Ramadan / Ramzan violence with un-uniformed jihadis from Afghanistan striking the uniformed jihadis of the Chitral Scouts across the border in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

25 officials of Chitral Scouts killed in attack

manum · Post by **manum** » 28 Aug 2011 19:12

http://www.dawn.com/2011/08/28/train-at ... uetta.html

QUETTA: Gunmen ambushed a passenger train in southwestern Pakistan on Sunday, killing three people and wounding 16 others, officials said.

This is crazy, it is reaching a different level of madness...

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Aug 2011 20:56

^^ Well, just reaping the benefits of whatever they wanted to see being done to Kaffirs across the border... i certainly wont weep for any of them.

manum · Post by **manum** » 29 Aug 2011 09:42

ya I wont weep as well...but still it has turned into leisure activity...spray bullets at interesting targets and see what happens...
No doubt if they can attack their own in such a callous docile fashion...sure those nukes are not safe, they must be dreaming of strapping themselves onto them and flying into 72's...

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 31 Aug 2011 05:56

MQM letter of support to Tony Blair in 2001

Shocking, if true. I doubt the authenticity. No one would write such sensitive offer and mail it to the PM. These things are verbally communicated.

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 31 Aug 2011 23:03

Hi Gurus,

I don't know if I should post this as it grossly falls under unsubstantiated rumors and my only source is tweets from @akchisti (does his name sound familiar anyone???). Here are some interesting ones... However, mods, please remove the post if against rules....

Lt. Commander Nasir's dead? Please confirm? He was part of the investigation team of PNS Mehran.

There's really something spooky about the whole #Karachi Naval Bases. There had been over 08 attacks on Naval installations in KHI alone.

There had been three bombings of naval buses including PNS-Mehran attack in April-May this year alone. Navy has closeted jehadis within.

@fawadrehman yeah Navy is holding alQueda suspects - all naval persons.

Plus you have a zaleel naval chief who met his house contractor next day of PNS Mehran & ordered a new Beamer. He wants to make NI DG chief

Naval Chief's grooming his friend and incompetent DG, Naval Intel as the next naval chief who covered investigations and delayed results.

Would the naval chief deny that they had delayed investigations because of embarrassment? Only recently he was ridiculed by young officers.

The whole PN frigate deal from China is another scam.

JF-17 Thunder deal remains the biggest scam, AVM Shahid Latif would testify. The previous Air Chief was made over a glass of scotch by Mush.

@Tariq_Bashir we blame mushy..... The previous appointment of air chief destroyed PAF.

All above tweets within the last hour..

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Sep 2011 07:13

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

As the Islamic Republic of Pakistan celebrates another “ Defence Day “, a timely reminder of the discrimination that Hindu, Sikh and Christian dhimmi’s who served in the armed forces of the Islamic Republic have had to put up with:

Islamabad discriminates against non-Muslim war heroes

arun · Post by **arun** » 11 Sep 2011 16:20

X Posted from the TSP thread.

The un-uniformed Jihadi’s created by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to target India and other countries have turned on their mentors, the uniformed Jihadi’s of the military of Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Dawn reports that an advertisement placed by the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the Wall Street Journal declares that the Pakistani Army also has lost 2,795 soldiers while 8,671 soldiers have been wounded. The advertisement also declares that there have been 3,486 demonstrations of the IEDology of Pakistan and 283 demonstrations of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan:

Pakistan reaches out to US on 9/11 anniversary

Ramin · Post by **Ramin** » 12 Sep 2011 05:47

documentary of Pak Navy Marines Training

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2l3vh5g ... ideo_title[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmjjGwae ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXMOSEkH ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERGXJygq ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Sep 2011 05:54

Ramin wrote:documentary of Pak Navy Marines Training

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2l3vh5g ... ideo_title[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmjjGwae ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXMOSEkH ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERGXJygq ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]

Exactly as I imagined

nits · Post by **nits** » 13 Sep 2011 11:47

arun wrote:X Posted from the TSP thread.

The un-uniformed Jihadi’s created by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to target India and other countries have turned on their mentors, the uniformed Jihadi’s of the military of Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Dawn reports that an advertisement placed by the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the Wall Street Journal declares that the Pakistani Army also has lost 2,795 soldiers while 8,671 soldiers have been wounded. The advertisement also declares that there have been 3,486 demonstrations of the IEDology of Pakistan and 283 demonstrations of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan:

Pakistan reaches out to US on 9/11 anniversary

Pic of Pak AD - Good Joke !!

Yusuf · Post by **Yusuf** » 13 Sep 2011 22:37

Err this is what we thought of the ad and how it should have been

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Sep 2011 19:53

X Posted from the ISI History and Discussions thread.

Un-uniformed Jihadi’s turn on their one time uniformed Jihadi mentors of the ISI in Bannu:

Three Pakistan intelligence officials killed

DERA ISMAIL KHAN, Pakistan | Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:14pm IST ……………………

In Wednesday’s attack, militants ambushed a vehicle carrying officials from the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), opening fire from several directions on a road in the tribal region of Bannu. One intelligence official was wounded.

“The vehicle belonged to the ISI and was attacked with Kalashnikovs. Three people were killed and one was critically wounded,” Sajjad Khan, a senior police official, told Reuters. .........

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 14 Sep 2011 20:44

Maj Gen Shahida Badshah currently posted at Pakistan army medical college is all set to be the first woman Lt Gen in Pakistan. She is likely to be promoted in October this year against the vacancy to be caused by retirement of Lt Gen (Surgeon) Rehan Burney. Other prominent Lt gens due to retire in October are Javed Zia (Southern Command Chief), Shujaa Zamir Dar (Chairman Ordnance Factory Board), Jamil Haider (Strategic Force Chief) and Mohsin Kamal (MS).

Who will be the replacement for Strategic force chief. Will it be a RAPE officer or a true maulana officer.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 15 Sep 2011 00:28

dinakar wrote:
Maj Gen Shahida Badshah currently posted at Pakistan army medical college is all set to be the first woman Lt Gen in Pakistan. She is likely to be promoted in October this year against the vacancy to be caused by retirement of Lt Gen (Surgeon) Rehan Burney. Other prominent Lt gens due to retire in October are Javed Zia (Southern Command Chief), Shujaa Zamir Dar (Chairman Ordnance Factory Board), Jamil Haider (Strategic Force Chief) and Mohsin Kamal (MS).

Javed Zia is Southern Command Chief? I did not know PA had commands like IA does. Is this a new development, or DDMitis?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Sep 2011 11:24

It seems they do now. If you see the list of officers promoted, there is mention of Southern and Northern Command cheifs. But, there is no clarity on the role. There is one shool of thought which says these are for admin purpose and not exactly as in our - the Corps continue to be under operational control of GHQ.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 16 Sep 2011 01:04

From Tribune (posting in full). TSP is tired of Drone technology demostrations and is convinced of the capabilities of Predator drones. It wants to buy it but no one will sell the tech for it so it is going to make its own drones.
Indigenous spy planes: ‘No headway in transfer of drone technology’

Published: September 15, 2011

Statement comes when Pakistan tries to secure drone technology from the US.
ISLAMABAD: There has been no headway in the acquisition of sophisticated technology for aerial surveillance since no developed country is willing to share it with the country, according to a written reply submitted to the Senate by Minister for Defence Production, Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi.

The statement came at a time when the Pakistani establishment is in the process of securing drone technology from the US and demanding an end to drone strikes in the tribal belt. Pakistan Air Force had claimed that it had test-fired anti-drone technology in collaboration with the state defence corporation. Elahi’s predecessor Abdul Qayyum Khan Jatoi had also stated that the PAF had developed pilotless drone aircraft on its own and was consulting with the Chinese to improve their capability.

Published in The Express Tribune, September 15th, 2011.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 20 Sep 2011 20:48

Pak refuses to hand over ex-ISI chief to Bosnia tribunal

Pakistan has refused to hand over a retired general, who headed the spy agency ISI, to an international tribunal investigating war crimes in Bosnia, according to a media report today.
....

It was then revealed that Nasir was actively involved in the war and had supported and provided arms to the Bosnian Muslim resistance.
....

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 21 Sep 2011 06:29

2-day National Seminar on "Mapping Contemporary Pakistan" organised by 16 Corps in Jammu

Addressing the gathering during the session on ‘Demystifying Pakistan Army’ in the seminar, Maj Gen Rakesh said that war is not an option, we hate war, to handle the problem of terrorism, which still exist in J&K, nation is strong enough to deal with situation. Our troops are vigilant enough and data shows that there is relative drop in terrorist activities across the State, he said.

While presenting his paper entitled ‘Pakistan Army’s India Centricity and Impact on Nationhood’, he highlighted that, "the hate India campaign propagated systematically through school education needs to be curbed by the Pakistani establishment if they want to become a good nation. He proposed that, "we should jointly try to formulate a common South Asia history and discuss it more openly".

Speaking on the occasion, Air Vice Marshal (Retd) Kapil Kad, said that there is need of diplomatic footwork at fast track level and stressed to spread the awareness about role of Pakistan army at international level. He said that from Indian point of view, footprint at Afghanistan must be developed to keep proper check on Pakistan. He also discussed ‘Pakistan’s Key External Relations’ which included Pakistan’s future relations with US, military’s China dimension, China’s objectives and concerns and Pakistan military’s Afghanistan strategy on the occasion. He further emphasized on the up-gradation of internal security system to tackle the internal threats.