Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Jun 2008 09:59

Four F-16 Falcon fighters join PAF

SARGODHA: The Pakistan Air Force received four refurbished F-16 fighter jets from the United States on Saturday at a simple but impressive ceremony at the PAF Mushaf Base.

Pakistan, a major non-NATO ally of the US, received two of these jets earlier this year and another four last month. Two more planes would be delivered next month, according to private television cannels.

The fighter jets are part of a consignment of 12 refurbished planes that Pakistan would receive from the US. Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, deputy operations chief of the air staff, received the fighting falcons from US Air Force Commander Lt General Gary L North.

The batch of the aircrafts has the same operational capability as of the already possessed F-16 aircraft by the PAF and will significantly augment its combat capability in defending the aerial frontiers of the country.

A contingent of high ranking air force officials from Pakistan and the US were also present on the occasion. The government also signed an agreement with the US in 2006 for purchase of 18 new F-16-C and F-16-D aircrafts.

In the start, Islamabad had decided to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of 5.1 billion dollars. These included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of a fleet purchased in the 1980s. But later they halve its order due to financial constraints.

However, Pakistan will still have to spend 1.3 billion dollars on mid-life update and modification of the F-16A/B aircraft, which was purchased earlier. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment for the old fleet will cost Pakistan an additional 151 million dollars.

The new aircrafts will have facilities of carrying nuclear and non-nuclear weapons. The F-16 is a single-engine, supersonic, multi-role tactical aircraft and the jests were designed to be a cost-effective combat workhorse that can perform various kinds of missions and maintain around-the-clock readiness.

The F-16 is much smaller and lighter than its predecessors, but uses advanced aerodynamics and avionics, including the first use of a relaxed static stability/fly-by-wire flight control system, to achieve enhanced manoeuvre performance. Highly nimble, the F-16 can pull 9-g manoeuvres and can reach a maximum speed of Mach 2+.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Jun 2008 10:19

Funny, how the Pakis don't talk about no of old aircraft being upgraded. I think this is to save H&D. The Pakis wanted everyone to believe that they had 34 of thr orginal 40 with 8 attrition loses. But this purchase of refurbished aircraft seems to indicate that they have 22 of the orginal 40 with 18 atrition loses and will use these 12 refurbished aircraft to state they have upgraded 34 of the old F-16 A/B's

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 02 Jul 2008 00:16

From Defence-Aerospace:
Pakistan - AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods

(Source: US Defense Security Cooperation Agency; dated June 26, web-posted June 27, 2008)

WASHINGTON --- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods as well as associated equipment and services.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $75 million.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 21 AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pods, software support, repair and return, spare and repair parts, support equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of program support. The estimated cost is $75 million.

Given its geo-strategic location and partnership in the Global War on Terrorism (GWOT), Pakistan is a vital ally of the United States, as reflected in the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally. This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping an ally meet its legitimate defense requirements.

Pakistan intends to purchase the AIDEWS pods to enhance its existing F-16 fighter aircraft.
This proposed sale will ensure Pakistan’s existing fleet is compatible with the new F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft.

Consistent with U.S. conventional arms transfer policy and arms control initiatives, this potential sale will allow the Pakistani Air Force to modernize its fighter inventory, thereby enabling Pakistan to support both its own air defense needs and coalition operations.

Release of the AIDEWS equipment to Pakistan will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region.

The principal contractor will be ITT Corporation of Clifton, New Jersey. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical reviews, support, and program management over a period of up to 15 years.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U.S. Government representatives or contractor representatives to Turkey. (??? I guess we're not the only one's with DDM problems!!)

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded.

-ends-

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 02 Jul 2008 01:20

AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS

http://www.es.itt.com/datasheets/211.pdf

its fairly advanced

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 02 Jul 2008 05:42

From Janes:
Pakistan eyes US frigate as Congress debates transfer bill

Tim Fish

Pakistan will acquire an Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate if US legislators approve a bill allowing retired US Navy (USN) vessels to be transferred to overseas recipients.

Greece, Chile and Peru are also set to receive ex-USN ships under the Naval Vessels Transfer Act 2008, which is currently going through Congress.

The Pakistan Navy is expected to take delivery of USS McInerney in 2010. It is the oldest of 30 FFH-type frigates in service with the USN, having been launched at Bath Iron Works in November 1978 and commissioned in December 1979.

Pakistan currently operates six Type 21 frigates, which were built for the UK Royal Navy in the early 1970s, and has ordered four new-build frigates from China based on the Jiangwei II design.

Meanwhile, ex-USN Osprey-class minehunters Osprey and Robin have been allocated to Greece. The Hellenic Navy acquired two vessels of this class, Heron and Pelican , under the Naval Vessels Transfer Act 2007.

If the 2008 law is passed, Kaiser-class auxiliary oiler Andrew J Higgins will transfer to the Chilean Navy with two Newport-class tank landing ships, Fresno and Racine , going to the Peruvian Navy.

The USN's 30 Year Shipbuilding Plan details further Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates destined to leave service early in the next decade: USS Boone , USS Stephen W Groves and USS John L Hall will be retired in 2012; USS Jarrett , USS Underwood , USS Crommelin , USS Doyle and USS Klakring will follow in 2013.

Ships in the Oliver Hazard Perry class have already proved popular outside of the United States. Australia has bought four and built a further two, Spain has purchased six and Taiwan eight. Transfers include eight ships to Turkey plus an extra for spares, four to Egypt, one to Bahrain and two to Poland.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 02 Jul 2008 05:44

Same report

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtex ... =s110-3052

SEC. 2. TRANSFER OF NAVAL VESSELS TO CERTAIN FOREIGN RECIPIENTS.

(a) Transfers by Grant- The President is authorized to transfer vessels to foreign recipients on a grant basis under section 516 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2321j), as follows:

(1) PAKISTAN- To the Government of Pakistan, the OLIVER HAZARD PERRY class guided missile frigate MCINERNEY (FFG-8).

The porkis are hoping for MK-41 launchers with ESSM and RAM. What are the chances of the perinnial beggars being donated these weapons? Or will they have to install the chinese LY-60 onto these?

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 10 Jul 2008 10:49

US gives Pakistan 18 Sniper spy pods for F-16s

WASHINGTON: The US government has awarded a contract to Lockheed Martin for 18 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP), a part of the new advanced block 52 F-16 aircraft programme for Pakistan.

With deliveries beginning in 2008, Sniper ATP's exceptional stability and superior imagery will allow Pakistan Air Force to perform intelligence, targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions from extended standoff ranges.

Pakistan is the eighth international customer to join the US Air Force and Air National Guard flying with Sniper ATP. The contract includes spares and training services. Terms of the contract were not disclosed.

"This sale culminates a two-year combined effort by Lockheed Martin's Missiles and Fire Control and Aeronautics businesses to upgrade the precision attack capability of one of our key allies," said Ken Fuhr, director of Fixed Wing Targeting Programmes at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control Monday.

"Sniper continues to demonstrate exceptional performance in meeting the requirements and expectations of the Warfighter."

Sniper incorporates a high-resolution, mid-wave third-generation forward-looking infrared (FLIR), a dual-mode laser permitting eye-safe operation in urban environments, a CCD-TV along with a laser spot tracker and a laser marker.

Sniper is fully compatible with the latest J-series munitions and precision-guided weaponry. Its superior detection ranges are vital to pilots, helping keep them out of range of threat air defences.

The Pakistan Air Force joins the UK Ministry of Defence; the Canadian Forces, the Royal Norwegian Air Force; the Polish Air and Air Defense Force; the Royal Air Force of Oman; the Belgium Defence and other international customers with its selection of the Sniper ATP.

Sniper ATP is currently flying on the US Air Force and multinational F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, A-10s, B-1s and the Harrier GR9. Sniper ATPs have accumulated tens of thousands of flight hours in thousands of sorties in support of Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom.

The Maryland Headquartered Lockheed Martin is engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustaining of advanced technology systems.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Jul 2008 05:28

Pakistan Army
Here is brief detail about Pakistan Army.

The Pakistan Army (Urdu: پاک فوج) is the largest branch of the Pakistan military (Fouj), and is mainly responsible for protection of the state borders, the security of administered territories and defending the national interests of Pakistan within the framework of its international obligations.

The Pakistan Army, combined with the Navy and Air Force, makes Pakistan's armed forces the 7th largest military in the world (We have seventh largest Army in world). The Army is modelled on the United Kingdom armed forces (the reason you know that we got freedom from UK) and came into existence after the independence in 1947. It has an active force of 520,000 personnel and 500,000 men in reserve that continue to serve until the age of 45.

The Pakistani Army consists of both volunteer and conscripts and has been involved in many conflicts with India (1948, 1965, 1971, 1999). Combined with this rich combat experience, the Army is also actively involved in contributing to United Nations (UN) peacekeeping efforts. Other foreign deployments have consisted of Pakistani Army personnel as advisors in many African, South Asian and Arab countries. The Pakistani Army maintained Division and brigade strength presences in some of the Arab countries during the past Arab-Israeli Wars, and the first Gulf War to help the Coalition. The Pakistani Army is led by the Chief of Army Staff, currently Pervez Musharraf, who is also the President of Pakistan.

List of Chiefs of Army Staff

General Sir Frank Messervy (August 15, 1947 - February 10, 1948)
General Sir Douglas David Gracey (February 11, 1948 - January 16, 1951)
Field Marshal Ayub Khan (January 16, 1951 - October 26, 1958)
General Musa Khan (October 27, 1958 - June 17, 1966)
General Yahya Khan (June 18, 1966 – December 20, 1971)
General Gul Hassan (December 20, 1971 - March 3, 1972)
General Tikka Khan (March 3, 1972 – March 1, 1976)
General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (April 1, 1976 - August 17, 1988)
General Mirza Aslam Beg (August 17, 1988 - August 16, 1991)
General Asif Nawaz (August 16, 1991 - January 8, 1993)
General Wahid Kakar (January 8, 1993 - December 1, 1996)
General Jehangir Karamat (December 1, 1996 - October 6, 1998)
General Pervez Musharraf (October 7, 1998–present)

Structure of Army units

Army Unit Number of Units
-------------------------------
Corps 10
Infantry Divisions 19
Artillery Divisions 2
Aviation Squadrons 17
2 Special forces Brigades with 5 Battalions 1
Armored Recce Regiment 3
Independent Mechanical Infantry Brigades 6
Independent Armoured brigades 7
Artillery Brigades 9
Air Defence Command with 3 Air Defence Groups, 8 AD Brigades 1
Engineer brigades 7
Armoured divisions 2

Rank structure and uniform insignia
-----------------------------------------
Rank Field Marshal (5-Star) General (4-Star) Lieutenant General (3-Star) Major General (2-Star) Brigadier (1-Star) Colonel Lieutenant Colonel Major Captain Lieutenant 2nd Lieutenant

Weapons and equipment

Small arms
-------------
Mohafiz armored vehicle.
Pakistan Army Mi-17s
Pakistan Army AH-1 CobraHeckler & Koch MP5 9 mm carbines and the Carbine 1A 9 mm sub-machine guns
Machine Gun MG-3
SMG PK, Type 1 & 2
Automatic Rifle G-3, Types A3 & P4
Anti Aircraft Machine Gun 12.7 mm, Type 54
Steyr SSG-4 and SSG-P2 (sniper rifles)
M-82 anti material rifle
AK-47 (currently being phased out)
Type 81 Assault Rifle
M-4A1 (only in service with SF)
Styer Sniper Rifle

Mortars
----------
(Type) 81 mm
AM-ffff Series 120 mm
Type 63-1

Anti-tank guided weapons
------------------------------
Milan ATGM
TOW ATGM
TOW II (recently procured)
Bakter-Shikan ATGM

Army Air Defence
---------------------
AA guns ZU-23/33 30, 36, 37 mm
Crotale SAM
RBS-70
SA-7 Grail
FIM-92 Stinger
Mistral
FIM-43 Redeye
Anza Mk II | Anza Mk III
HQ-2b

Missiles
---------
Hatf-I
Hatf-II (Abdali-I)
Hatf-III (Ghaznavi)
M-11
Ghaznavi
Hatf-V (Ghauri I)
Hatf-V (Ghauri II) carry Conventional and Nuclear
Ghauri-III Ballistic missile Range 4,000 km
Shaheen I
Shaheen-II
Shaheen III
Babur missile

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 17 Jul 2008 13:11

Some interesting news

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/US_p ... 242342.cms

US troops in Afghanistan are massing close to the border with Pakistan, poised to launch bombing raids on suspected terrorist bases in the North Waziristan region, British and Pakistani newspapers reported on Wednesday.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 17 Jul 2008 15:05

Troop build-up reports ‘untrue’, says US

By Anwar Iqbal

WASHINGTON, July 16: The US defence secretary and a top military official on Wednesday dismissed the reports as “untrue” that American troops were massing on the Afghan border to launch an attack into Pakistan but warned that if attacked the troops will return the fire.

Defence Secretary Robert Gates also dismissed the suggestion that the current tension between Pakistan and Afghanistan could lead to a war between America’s two key allies. “That is an exaggeration,” said Mr Gates when asked if the current situation could lead to a Pakistan-Afghan war.

At the Pentagon briefing, both Mr Gates and Admiral Mullen were asked to comment on recent media reports that the US was gathering troops on the Afghan border to launch an attack into Pakistan’s tribal areas.

“The notion that US troops are massing on the border to enter Pakistan is untrue,” Mr Gates told a Pentagon news conference.

Admiral Michael Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, also dismissed these reports as incorrect. “I have seen the reports and disagree with them, disagree with what they say,” Admiral Mullen told the briefing.

Mr Gates clarified that the US has not taken any decision to send troops into Pakistan’s tribal areas in search of Al Qaeda or Taliban leaders but if the troops were attacked from across the border, they will return the fire as they have done in the past, using long-range artillery.

Admiral Mullen said that during a recent visit to Pakistan he told Pakistani leaders they need to do more to stop cross-border infiltrations into Afghanistan.

The Pentagon said earlier that the admiral made an unscheduled visit to Islamabad last week to share US concerns over Pakistan’s inability to stop cross-border attacks.

“The reality is that Pakistan faces security challenges of its own from these groups,” said Mr Gates when asked what leverage the US has to persuade Pakistan to stop cross-border attacks. “The number of attacks inside Pakistan has doubled.”

The new civilian government in Pakistan, he said, needs to gain a full appreciation of “the significance and magnitude” of the threat from the terrorist groups to be able to deal with it. “The first thing is a clear understanding and we can make a contribution there, we are ready and willing to help them.”

Admiral Mullen said that he sees this threat expanding and “becoming a syndicate of terrorist groups. The Pakistani leaders he met during his trip, acknowledged the threat. “(Now) they need to really figure out a way with the Afghans and with our security forces” to fight this threat, he said.

Secretary Gates noted that Pakistan has conducted some military operations in the tribal areas in the last couple of weeks. “So they have identified the problem and taken military action. Our hope obviously is that those efforts will intensify.”

Asked to comment on White House hopeful Barack Obama’s statement that he will send US troops into Pakistan to catch Osama bin Laden, Admiral Mullen said: “We will all like to catch Bin Laden.”

He said that while US and Afghan troops can fight back the militants, “the pressure on the Pakistani side is needed.”

Secretary Gates said while sending more US troops to Afghanistan will make a significant difference to the situation, “there’s no question that the absence of pressure on the Pakistani side is creating opportunities for the insurgents to launch attacks.”

The situation will be much better if there were pressure on the Pakistani side, agreed Admiral Mullen.

http://www.dawn.com/2008/07/17/top4.htm

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 23 Jul 2008 22:13

Swiss arms exports to Pakistan up
http://www.dawn.com/2008/07/23/top11.htm

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 25 Jul 2008 13:59

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The United States plans to shift about $230 million in aid to Pakistan from counterterrorism programs to upgrading the nation's aging F-16 fighter jets.

U.S. officials say the Pakistani army is a key ally in efforts to fight terrorism.

"We've shifted money to help the democratically elected government of Pakistan to fight a common foe, a common enemy that we have," said Gonzalo Gallegos, a State Department spokesman.

Pakistan is the largest recipient of payments from the Coalition Support Funds, which gives money to 27 partner countries help combat terrorism.

A senior State Department official told CNN "this has been developing for a while."

The new government is facing "a terrible financial crisis with food and fuel problems," the official said, and the Pakistani government "would rather tell its public they are spending their money on food and fuel," so it asked the United States to pay for the F-16 upgrades from the U.S. aid fund.

Last year, Congress mandated that $300 million in aid to Pakistan go toward fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban, partly by beefing up law enforcement and developing tribal areas of the country that are hostile to the United States.

Skeptical lawmakers worry that the F-16 upgrades will divert funding from crucial counterterrorism programs and could be more about helping Pakistan competing with its rival, India, than fighting terror.

Nita Lowey, chairwoman of a House subcommittee on foreign operations, said the request from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to reprogram the funding "raises serious concerns."

Lowey is asking for more information before signing off on the change.

"Congress provided these funds specifically for counterterrorism and law enforcement activities," Lowey said in a written statement.

Don't Miss
Report: $6 billion in aid to Pakistan poorly tracked
"It is incumbent on the State Department and Pakistan to demonstrate clearly how these F-16s would be used to fight al Qaeda and the Taliban in order to get congressional support."

It is not the first time U.S. aid to Pakistan has come under scrutiny. In June, the Government Accountability Office and the House Committee on Foreign Affairs released a report that said the United States has not accurately tracked about $6 billion it gave to help the Pakistani government fight terrorism since 2001.

The country, which the Department of Defense considers a key ally in the war on terrorism because of its proximity to large swaths of ungoverned tribal land, has received $5.56 billion of $6.88 billion given out since the September 11 terrorist attacks.

U.S. and Pakistani officials claim that the F-16s are used to fly missions over regions near Pakistan's border with Afghanistan, where the Taliban are operating and al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding.

The upgrades, which will bring the old fleet in line with new F-16s Pakistan recently purchased from the United States, will allow Pakistan's F-16 fleet to operate day and night missions and "effectively employ ground operations," Gallegos said.

The funds will be diverted from upgrades on other airplanes used for fighting terrorism, Gallegos said.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 25 Jul 2008 16:51

The United States plans to shift about $230 million in aid to Pakistan from counterterrorism programs to upgrading the nation's aging F-16 fighter jets.

U.S. officials say the Pakistani army is a key ally in efforts to fight terrorism.

"We've shifted money to help the democratically elected government of Pakistan to fight a common foe, a common enemy that we have," said Gonzalo Gallegos, a State Department spokesman.

How the F*** are F-16 going to help in Anti Terror missions. Are they using F-16 against Taliban. Heck i dont even hear US in Afgan use Jets against taliban.

The new government is facing "a terrible financial crisis with food and fuel problems," the official said, and the Pakistani government "would rather tell its public they are spending their money on food and fuel," so it asked the United States to pay for the F-16 upgrades from the U.S. aid fund.

So indirectly US is maintaining Pakistan defence so that it can be strong to face India, while tehy charge us high $$$ to sell us Jets, ships.....

Skeptical lawmakers worry that the F-16 upgrades will divert funding from crucial counterterrorism programs and could be more about helping Pakistan competing with its rival, India, than fighting terror.

"It is incumbent on the State Department and Pakistan to demonstrate clearly how these F-16s would be used to fight al Qaeda and the Taliban in order to get congressional support."

U.S. and Pakistani officials claim that the F-16s are used to fly missions over regions near Pakistan's border with Afghanistan, where the Taliban are operating and al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding

Yeah right, the Jets will be flying above and below they will be making Peace talks with Taliban

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 25 Jul 2008 17:01

Read somewhere that only half of 30 F-16's are in flying condition. They are in need of desperate repair. F-16's have been used for the purposes of fighting Taleban. The sniper pods are for the purposes of accurate bombing....

The good thing is that that means of the 34 they ever had, about only 15 actually fly. In such a case a comparison with our air force speaks a lot - we literally have 150 frontline fighters (roughly 50 each of M2K, 29's and MKI's). It was inevitable that the F-16 fixing would take place.

Plus, look at $230m isn't a lot of money to repair the F-16's. Compare it what we are paying to upgrade our M2K's & MiG-29. I don't see this something to really worry about.

ticky · Post by **ticky** » 29 Jul 2008 01:11

asbchakri wrote:How the F*** are F-16 going to help in Anti Terror missions. Are they using F-16 against Taliban. Heck i dont even hear US in Afgan use Jets against taliban.

Heh heh, haven't you heard? They provide air cover for talebans infiltrating into Afghan Land?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Aug 2008 10:24

I have been reading the book by Adrian Levy on the Pakistan Nuclear program, the procurement of parts and blueprints and the associated proliferation. Some interesting tid-bits from the chapters covered so far:

AQ Khan was employed as technical translator (she speaks Dutch, German and English) by one of the firms/labs involved in the Dutch part of URENCO (which was a trilateral effort to develop centrifuge technology as means of uranium enrichment; earlier one being the diffusion which was extremely complex and difficult to master). He stole the design for first two types of Centrifuges developed by UCN (Ultra Centrifuge Nederland) called the CNORS and P-2. He ran away with three suitcases full of blueprints from Holland.

The Israel intelligence actually did send letter bombs to Khan’s contact points and threatened companies supplying stuff for Khan’s network.

Indian intelligence knew all the way about what Pakistan was up to.Pakistan go the know how for the bomb design and missile technology for delivery from China in 1976 treaty. While RAW knew about the enrichment program, they came to know about the China bit in a quite an interesting way. An Indian working in a press in UK on reading the documents for which he was supposed to type set, realized that it was written by ZA Bhutto (If I’m assassinated-Bhutto had written it as a response to the allegations against him by Zia). He realized that these papers had been smuggled out of Pakistan and uniformed his friend who in turn called up Indian High commissioner. The draft landed in the desk of a RAW analyst who on scrutinizing the documents came across of some boast of having achieved what they were trying for 11 years; Pakistan under a safe nuclear umbrella. Using 1965 as base figure, they realized it was treaty with China in 1976. China gave the blue prints of bomb used in their 4th test at Lop Nor in 1964.

Pakistan cold tested its device in 1984 and probably went for hot test in China in same year.

General Sundarji, then Vice Chief, actually structured a war game in 1981 itself with Pakistan as nuclear state.

There was a plan to bomb Kahuta in 1983 and 1984. We were supposed to use the Jaguars (which were asked to practice low level flying with 2000lbs bombs). Air chief Dilbagh Sing was in charge of the operation and was called “Osirak like contingency”. IAF actually went to Israel for EW equipment to neutralize the AD assets around Kahuta

First, Pakistan was alerted by US and their own intelligence who arranged a meeting with BARC head with some one from PAEC in Vienna. He said they’ll rain death on India if India attacked by attacking Trombay plus Khan gave a series of structured interviews to Pakistan press about their nuclear capability. US intelligence picked up the dispersal of the Jaguar squadrons (they satellite could not pick them up in Ambala) and US threatened that if we went ahead with plan, they’ll respond.

Israel volunteered to do the need full using Jamnagar and a Northern base but India backed out.

Wil post other interesting bits as i come across them.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Aug 2008 10:44

First, Pakistan was alerted by US and their own intelligence who arranged a meeting with BARC head with some one from PAEC in Vienna. He said they’ll rain death on India if India attacked by attacking Trombay plus Khan gave a series of structured interviews to Pakistan press about their nuclear capability. US intelligence picked up the dispersal of the Jaguar squadrons (they satellite could not pick them up in Ambala) and US threatened that if we went ahead with plan, they’ll respond.

Israel volunteered to do the need full using Jamnagar and a Northern base but India backed out.

Why did India back out if Israel was ready to do our job??

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Aug 2008 11:42

sum wrote:
First, Pakistan was alerted by US and their own intelligence who arranged a meeting with BARC head with some one from PAEC in Vienna. He said they’ll rain death on India if India attacked by attacking Trombay plus Khan gave a series of structured interviews to Pakistan press about their nuclear capability. US intelligence picked up the dispersal of the Jaguar squadrons (they satellite could not pick them up in Ambala) and US threatened that if we went ahead with plan, they’ll respond.

Israel volunteered to do the need full using Jamnagar and a Northern base but India backed out.
Why did India back out if Israel was ready to do our job??

Looks like the Indian plan on Kahuta was plotted before the Isreal plan on Osirak. Osirak and Iraq was an example to show to Pakistan and other Islamic countries what would be the fate if they went out of the line.
All actions on Iraq -1991/2003 are reminders to Pakistan of its fate in future.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 04 Aug 2008 11:58

Acharya wrote:
sum wrote: Why did India back out if Israel was ready to do our job??
Looks like the Indian plan on Kahuta was plotted before the Isreal plan on Osirak. Osirak and Iraq was an example to show to Pakistan and other Islamic countries what would be the fate if they went out of the line.
All actions on Iraq -1991/2003 are reminders to Pakistan of its fate in future.

I read somewhere that Obama (if elected) said he would not rule out milatary action on Iran , so if that happens can we with Israel help attack Pakistans nuclear establishments?. and will US allow that to happen and if we do attack then what would be the consequences ofcourse that will mean war with Pak no doubt but i'm asking globally?

Tim · Post by **Tim** » 19 Aug 2008 04:46

Acharya,

Osirak was in 1981 - before the Kahuta rumors. Perkovich has some discussion on this, and on the apparent 1983-84 crisis. So do Hagerty and Ganguly in "Fearful Symmetry".

Sum -

In the early 1980s, India had very poor relations with Israel, and was working very hard to maintain good relations with the Muslim world (except for Pakistan). As a result, either allowing the Israelis to use Indian bases or appearing to be a tool of the Israelis (and therefore the Americans, in the eyes of much of the world) might have been unattractive.

Tim

n_lodhi · Post by **n_lodhi** » 20 Aug 2008 19:06

Some of you might already know this, however, for the benefit of others, here are some of the key points extracted from PAF ACM's interview published in AFM September issue:

* PAF increased JF-17 order to 240, delivery to be completed by 2015.
* PAF to retire all Mirage (except Rose III Sqns with IRST), F-7 (except F7-PG), A-5 by 2015.
* Peshawar based 26 & 16 Sqns will be the first to convert from A-5 to JF-17 in 2009.
* Decision on the final configuration of the next batch order of 50 aircraft has been made, however it is not AESA. Negotiations are ongoing.
* PAF is acquiring 2 Sqn's of the Italian Falco UAV with coversion takking place for operations from PAF Mushaf and PAF Peshawar. Plan is to field 5-6 UAV Sqn's
* MLU of initial 4 F-16 aircraft in US is currently underway. The MLU will continue for all remaining A/B models (46 in all), with last two to be received in 2011.
* Block 52+ F-16's will be based at PAF Shahbaz to replace Mirage aircreft in AD role (to be delivered in 2010)
* Force multipliers being acquired are 4 SAAB Erieye, 4 ZDK-03 (PAF version of Y-8, being developed under a JV signed last year with China), 4 IL-78 Midas refuellers. First Erieye and IL-78 aircraft will be delivered in 2009.
* FC-20 order should be confirmed in next 12 months, whilst its final configuration is being worked out. PAF hopes to include western equipment in the J-10, thereby signifying a different version from PLAAF J-10, which will be known as FC-20 in PAF service. FC-20 will not be required to have any conformal fuel tanks, as it has sufficient internal fuel capacity as well as AAR by Il-78 Midas tankers being acquired. PAF is trying to acquire an AESA radar, however, as of yet there is no confirmation if this will be made available to PAF.
* FC-20 requirement currently stands at 2 squadrons of 36-40 single and dual seaters
* IL-78 Midas tankers will be able to provide AAR for all PAF fighter aircraft with the exception of the US manufactured F-16's. F-16's can be refueld by a boom system whereas the Midas will be equipped with the probe and drogue underwing pods system. PAF is holding out hope that a KC-135 could be acquired from the US in the near future. First Midas delivery will commence early 2009.
* Erieye will help datalink the F-16's, but they will not be able to do so in the case of the Mirage fleet. Chinese origin fighter fleet will have AEW&C cover from 4 ZDK03. The ZDK03 contract is close to be being finalised for the required 4 aircraft - no delivery timelines mentioned. First Erieye will be delivered in 2009, to be completed by 2011.

Dear Orange,
username changed to n_lodhi as it didn't conform
to user guidelines. check those at the top of the page.
Rahul.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 20 Aug 2008 19:46

n_lodhi wrote:Some of you might already know this, however, for the benefit of others, here are some of the key points extracted from PAF ACM's interview published in AFM September issue:

* PAF increased JF-17 order to 240, delivery to be completed by 2015.
* PAF to retire all Mirage (except Rose III Sqns with IRST), F-7 (except F7-PG), A-5 by 2015.
* Peshawar based 26 & 16 Sqns will be the first to convert from A-5 to JF-17 in 2009.
* Decision on the final configuration of the next batch order of 50 aircraft has been made, however it is not AESA. Negotiations are ongoing.
* PAF is acquiring 2 Sqn's of the Italian Falco UAV with coversion takking place for operations from PAF Mushaf and PAF Peshawar. Plan is to field 5-6 UAV Sqn's
* MLU of initial 4 F-16 aircraft in US is currently underway. The MLU will continue for all remaining A/B models (46 in all), with last two to be received in 2011.
* Block 52+ F-16's will be based at PAF Shahbaz to replace Mirage aircreft in AD role (to be delivered in 2010)
* Force multipliers being acquired are 4 SAAB Erieye, 4 ZDK-03 (PAF version of Y-8, being developed under a JV signed last year with China), 4 IL-78 Midas refuellers. First Erieye and IL-78 aircraft will be delivered in 2009.
* FC-20 order should be confirmed in next 12 months, whilst its final configuration is being worked out. PAF hopes to include western equipment in the J-10, thereby signifying a different version from PLAAF J-10, which will be known as FC-20 in PAF service. FC-20 will not be required to have any conformal fuel tanks, as it has sufficient internal fuel capacity as well as AAR by Il-78 Midas tankers being acquired. PAF is trying to acquire an AESA radar, however, as of yet there is no confirmation if this will be made available to PAF.
* FC-20 requirement currently stands at 2 squadrons of 36-40 single and dual seaters
* IL-78 Midas tankers will be able to provide AAR for all PAF fighter aircraft with the exception of the US manufactured F-16's. F-16's can be refueld by a boom system whereas the Midas will be equipped with the probe and drogue underwing pods system. PAF is holding out hope that a KC-135 could be acquired from the US in the near future. First Midas delivery will commence early 2009.
* Erieye will help datalink the F-16's, but they will not be able to do so in the case of the Mirage fleet. Chinese origin fighter fleet will have AEW&C cover from 4 ZDK03. The ZDK03 contract is close to be being finalised for the required 4 aircraft - no delivery timelines mentioned. First Erieye will be delivered in 2009, to be completed by 2011.

Dear Orange,
username changed to n_lodhi as it didn't conform
to user guidelines. check those at the top of the page.
Rahul.

how can they achieve goal for 250 by 2015 for JF17? Even if we assume 10 by end of this year, that is still 240 in 6 years time. means 40 fighters per year at a rate of 3 to 4 per months.

And is that financially feasible, as they are not "free-of-cost" FMS from US!! unless PAF plans to rob their central bank or something.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Aug 2008 22:33

So, the Pakis are getting the Il-78?

Still havent understood the need for refuellers for a comparitively small country like Pak?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 20 Aug 2008 23:21

sum wrote:So, the Pakis are getting the Il-78?

Still havent understood the need for refuellers for a comparitively small country like Pak?

That too four my my .. deos not sounds true for all the points by Mr. Lodhi

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 21 Aug 2008 16:00

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 0080062430

The US has approved the delivery of 20 T-37 refurbished jet trainer aircraft to Pakistan's air force.

The US government is providing the used aircraft free of cost to Pakistan, which will only have to bear the shipment costs. The delivery of the aircraft was authorised by the US administration on Wednesday

How good is this trainer,can it match our hawks?
Thanks in advance

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 22 Aug 2008 11:07

narayana wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 0080062430

The US has approved the delivery of 20 T-37 refurbished jet trainer aircraft to Pakistan's air force.

The US government is providing the used aircraft free of cost to Pakistan, which will only have to bear the shipment costs. The delivery of the aircraft was authorised by the US administration on Wednesday
How good is this trainer,can it match our hawks?
Thanks in advance

nowhere near. it's an ancient HJT-36 equivalent, with an A-37 COIN variant...

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 22 Aug 2008 18:25

Israel was never a serious threat to Pakistani nuclear program - the Soviets were. The Soviets saw the Pakistani program as a continuum of the threat they perceived from the US and PRChina. According to Soviet calculation, attacking Pakistan would be throwing the gauntlet at those two. The Soviets apparently didn't consider it necessary doing in the time-frame being discussed here. In the early 80's some hard-line Politburo members did wish to warn off the US and China from Afghanistan by doing so. It was well within Soviet capability to destroy that reactor - as well as every other nuclear facility in Pakistan. If the Soviets did want to do it, India had very very little say in the matter. But by 1984 Soviet leadership had resigned itself to losing in Afghanistan, so after that nothing else mattered in the region. If attacking Pakistani facilities meant throwing the gauntlet at PRChina, you can guess why India would rather have the Soviets do it than the Israelis.

Tim wrote:Sum -

In the early 1980s, India had very poor relations with Israel, and was working very hard to maintain good relations with the Muslim world (except for Pakistan). As a result, either allowing the Israelis to use Indian bases or appearing to be a tool of the Israelis (and therefore the Americans, in the eyes of much of the world) might have been unattractive.

Tim

India had pretty good, if covert, relations with Israel since the early 1970s. The covert nature of the relationship was necessary because India still had some relationship with the Arab and other Moslem developing nations of the world - i.e. the old nationalist, anti-imperialist types of the NAM (not UAE, KSA, Iran, Jordan types). But India had already learnt how friggin' useless ('62) and treacherous ('65) that company was, so it was working via back channels - most importantly Singapore - to establish relations with countries it had ignored. Completely destroying the Pakistani nuclear facility would have been a strategic reward worth throwing away that facade altogether BUT it was definitely NOT worth the risk of suddenly confronting PRChina... especially when Kremlin itself was acting quite un-decisive with the problem in Afghanistan.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 22 Aug 2008 18:43

asbchakri wrote:I read somewhere that Obama (if elected) said he would not rule out milatary action on Iran , so if that happens can we with Israel help attack Pakistans nuclear establishments?. and will US allow that to happen and if we do attack then what would be the consequences ofcourse that will mean war with Pak no doubt but i'm asking globally?

Pakistan has declared one of the markers of its nuclear first-use thresholds to be an attack on its nuclear facilities - so of course it means war with Pakistan. Seeing how Israel and the US are pretty much outside Pakistan's ability to strike, it means India will bear the brunt of the attacks. And seeing how Pakistan already has proven nuclear devices and has distributed them to remote facilities no one can surely target with 100% chances of success - it means nuclear war. It also means that possibly tens of millions of Indian dead; vast areas of the Yamuna-Ganga plains poisoned for next thousands of years if they cobalt-plate their devices. An ancient civilization dead, dying and dispersed. How hard is this to imagine? If India seeks to protect itself from the zombies next-door, it doesn't require satellite communication with Tel Aviv or Washington DC... it requires satellite targeting of the zombie-controllers who have their own ancient and valued civilization. How hard is that to understand?

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 26 Aug 2008 14:10

Any major air-exercises done by fizzle-ya ?

The last I remember was 'Anatolian Eagle' exercise conducted with fellow-mooslimes Turkey.

These buggers havent done any large scale deployments/exercises overseas nor any serious co-ordination with pakjabi army and they keep claiming about qualitative superiority.

Can somebody please confirm how many F-16s will they have operaional once those 18 are handed over by Amreeka Bahadur ?

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Aug 2008 14:52

Doubt that they even have the moolah to fly regular sorties,forget exercises....

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 26 Aug 2008 17:09

I guess the oil payments deferrement work on easing the opex part. Searched through the Paki deaf and dumb fora about some hard data on Fizzle-ya training, but nothing concrete. The abduls are still quoting chuck yeager and living in 65s era of racial superiority.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Aug 2008 13:23

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinte ... 80826.aspx
The Conning Khan Caper Revealed

August 26, 2008: Despite efforts by the CIA to keep it quiet, it was recently revealed how the CIA did major damage to nuclear weapons developments programs in Libya and Iran. This was done by getting to one of the engineers working for the Pakistani Khan network (named after scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan, who led development efforts for Pakistani nuclear weapons.) The CIA basically hired Swiss engineer Friedrich Tinner and his two sons, to feed the Khan network, and its customers, defective (in subtle ways) nuclear weapons components. From 2001-4, the Tinners worked under CIA direction. This caused Libya to drop its nuclear weapons program, and delayed work in Iran.

Since then, the Tinners have been prosecuted in Switzerland for their work with the Khan network. The elder Tinner began working for Khan in the 1970s, helping to steal European nuclear technology for the Pakistani weapons program. This relationship expanded in the 1990s, when Abdul Qadeer Khan began making money on the side by selling nuclear weapons technology to anyone who could afford it and was discrete (like Libya, Iran, North Korea and Iraq). The CIA effort to discover the Khan network, and take it down, led them to Tinner, whose willingness to collaborate helped bring down the Khan network.

The CIA paid the Tinners $10 million for their work, and are trying to keep them out of jail. But now details of the Tinner operation have been leaked to the media. The CIA will now try to keep secret the methods and contacts it used to uncover and destroy the Khan network, as well as how it sabotaged components. All this information can be used again, if it doesn't get published in the mass media first.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 30 Aug 2008 15:44

Pakistani SSG seems to have gotten a kit upgrade

Pakistani SSG

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/ ... 172bd2.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Aug 2008 17:07

Erieye will help datalink the F-16's, but they will not be able to do so in the case of the Mirage fleet. Chinese origin fighter fleet will have AEW&C cover from 4 ZDK03. The ZDK03 contract is close to be being finalised for the required 4 aircraft - no delivery timelines mentioned.

so they will have Mirages independent based on voice cmds, Ereyie commanding the
F-solahs and Y8 commanding the JF-17. no other country has 2 types of AWACS commanding
segments of their fleet independently.

they could purchase 1 phalcon to datalink between the Ereyie and Y8. I am sure they are
keeping an eye out for used E2 if they can get some free to fight the taliban

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 30 Aug 2008 17:40

Datalinking the F-16's would be a good force multiplier. The fact that would resulting in painting a battlefield picture would help them indentify and prioritise threat levels. It must still be reminded that we do have datalinking (though limited levels) for MKI's and Mig-29's. We still will overwhelm them by sheer numbers and air superiority. However, (subject to the abilities of their pilots), there responsiveness will improve tremendously with datalink and AWEAC's.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 31 Aug 2008 21:03

rkhanna wrote:Pakistani SSG seems to have gotten a kit upgrade

Pakistani SSG

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/ ... 172bd2.jpg

Find the difference

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 31 Aug 2008 22:06

Is it me or does anyone else see, paki general is looking very dejected. What could be the reason?

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 01 Sep 2008 01:18

Actually did. Spoke with a Pakistani lad over here. Said morale is very low as they are upset at fighting their own.

He might look good with what he has but the question here is how many training exercises have these people gone through...

Compared to us, we do one big one bi-annually.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 05 Sep 2008 15:46

This will be the unique foce operating two different type of command and control systems

http://www.geo.tv/9-5-2008/24238.htm

China to provide Pakistan four AWACS aircrafts

Updated at: 1512 PST, Friday, September 05, 2008
ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshall Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed on Friday said China would provide four AWACS aircrafts to Pakistan for the purpose of aerial surveillance, adding an agreement in this regard has been signed by the two countires.

Talking to Geo News, he said talks were also underway to purchase FC-20 aircrafts from China and added 30 to 40 planes would be provided to Pakistan under the agreement signed by China and Pakistan.

Air chief Marshall further said four such aircrafts were being also acquired from Sweden for aerial surveillance.

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 05 Sep 2008 17:34

German defence minister arrives ISLAMABAD

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 008_pg7_52

German Defence Minister Franz Josef Jung arrived on Thursday for a one-day visit to discuss the security situation in the Tribal Areas and Afghanistan with Pakistani officials.

Diplomatic sources said Jung would meet his Pakistani counterpart Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar on Friday (today) and discuss the situation in Afghanistan. The German minister will also meet Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi. Sources said Berlin was concerned over the deteriorating security situation and increasing attacks on international forces in Afghniastan. They said an earlier planned news conference between the two defence ministers was also cancelled due to security reasons.

The sources said Jung might meet with Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, but did not disclose more information about the meeting due to the premier’s tightened security following a sniper attack on his motorcade.

germans are looking to sell u-boats and some armament stuff,
how's our relations with german defence industry, cant we stop some german deals with terrorists