Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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SaiK
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Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Postby SaiK » 26 Mar 2008 01:30

Old thread is here
-Arun_S

-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2008/03/26/stories/2008032651671000.htm The DRDO wants to develop an interceptor for a missile fired from a 5,000 km range which would require a kill altitude of 250 km by 2011-12.


x-posting from drdo thread

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Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2008 02:28

Amplyfying Saik's above post

[quote]
The DRDO is looking at testing the enhanced version of the Exo Atmospheric Interceptor, PAD Missile, in June-July this year.

Interceptor Missile


[b]“The earlier PAD Missile, tested in November 2006, which had a 600 km range has now been enhanced to intercept a target fired from a 1,500 km to 2,000 km. It had a kill altitude of 47 km, which has now been enhanced to between 75 and 90 km,â€

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Postby ranganathan » 26 Mar 2008 03:02

Other than the AAD/PAD and AD-1/Ad-2 combo is DRDO trying to develop other ABM options like High power lasers or EMP ?

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Postby svinayak » 26 Mar 2008 07:00

Image

Missile systems on display at the RCI, DRDO in Hyderabad on Tuesday. Photo: G. Krishnaswamy

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Postby MN Kumar » 26 Mar 2008 17:30

Acharya wrote:
Missile systems on display at the RCI, DRDO in Hyderabad on Tuesday. Photo: G. Krishnaswamy


Thanks Acharya for posting this. Was searching for these when I saw the display in the news yesterday. Def Min AK Antony was in town yesterday. Also there was a gentleman in Navy uniform who was interacting with the media and describing the systems. Thought it was interesting.

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Postby rocky » 26 Mar 2008 19:21

Acharya wrote:Image

Missile systems on display at the RCI, DRDO in Hyderabad on Tuesday. Photo: G. Krishnaswamy
A picture is worth a thousand words! That ARH radar confirms lots of issues! Thanks.

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Postby A Sharma » 26 Mar 2008 20:06

Agni-I launched for the first time by Strategic Forces Command

India's nuclear-capable surface-to-surface missile Agni-I, having a strike range of 700 to 900 kms, was today test fired for the first time by the newly-created Strategic Forces Command.

The missile's successful launch from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at the Wheelers' Island on Orissa's coast near here into the Bay of Bengal, was described as a "major milestone" in preparing the armed forces in handling strategic weapons.

So far, the tactical units of the Command, comprising the Army's specialised artillery personnel, had carried out user trials of short-range surface-to-surface Prithvi missile and supersonic cruise missile BrahMos. Though Agni-I and the 2000 km range Agni-II have been inducted into the armed forces, they were earlier being manned for the Army units by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) personnel.

Powered by solid fuel, the missile, fired from a mobile launcher at 1015 hours, "had a textbook performance in terms of range, accuracy and lethality", the Defence Ministry said.

This was the second user trial of the precision target hitting missile to test its "operational readiness", DRDO scientists said. The previous trial was conducted on October 5, last year, from the same launch site.

"It is a major milestone in the preparedness of the Army units in the strategic deployment of Agni-I system," Director of the Missile System, Avinash Chander said.

Congratulating the scientists and operations team of the Strategic Forces Command, Defence Minister A K Antony and Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju described today's launch as an "outstanding achievement", which "added yet another milestone in the preparedness of the country in the area of strategic defence".

Chander said the performance of all the sub-systems of the indigenous Agni-I including explicit guidance, re-entry structures, avionics and payload "has been outstanding, confirming the robustness and maturity of long-range missile technology in DRDO."

V K Saraswat, who has been heading the country's missile anti-missile programme, participated in the launch and lauded the team members for their dedicated and professional work towards achieving the success.

The missile has been developed by DRDO and its laboratories along with public sector Bharat Dynamics Limited, Hyderabad.

The trials are part of efforts to test the readiness of the missiles. DRDO carries out two tests of each missile every year.

The missile is 15 metres tall, weighs about 12 tonnes and is capable of carrying both conventional as well as nuclear warheads of 1000 kg.

Defence sources said personnel of the newly raised Strategic Forces Command (SFC) along with scientists from the DRDO carried out today's trial in order to ensure familiarisation for the end operator -- the special missile group 334 raised by the Army.

The anti-missile system is also expected to be tested for the second time next month. It was successfully tested last year.

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Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2008 20:31

ramana wrote:
Austin wrote:....

We have done more of Agni-1 production testing , this is the 2nd one in series which the Army will be testing , not sure if they are testing new guidance or improved RV in such test


No. Readiness. If you see its an Army unit doing the testing from random stock. I would like to see it conducted while Brazen Chariots is going on to exercise the whole escalation chain. But that would scare the RATS next door.



:)

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Postby SaiK » 26 Mar 2008 21:04

Don't we need a combination (types) of the ARH seekers -

1. MMW
2. IR
3. Optics.

If we can combine all these three, and feeds into one single logic to control the homing and detonation, then its an achievement even lockheeds may be interested to work with drdo for their aegis, patriots etc.

Afterall its for the terminal phase.. the range is not a problem at all. We can augment from Nag, Trishul experience, and perhaps revert back to Nag and Trishul that was giving problems for these precise seeker technology and fast logic and controls.

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Postby Singha » 26 Mar 2008 22:12

LM has already tested the trimode seeker (JCMS) ;)

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/pres ... sfull.html

I hope someday to work for raytheons indian division (RODC) working
on a huge BESA radar (B > A => BESA > AESA) for P40 IN cruiser...

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Postby Gerard » 27 Mar 2008 02:32

India tests 'Agni-U' missile
The two-stage Agni incorporates a slightly modified Augmented Satellite Launch Vehicle (ASLV) design in its second stage.

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Postby Gerard » 27 Mar 2008 02:50

What would be payload capacity (to LEO) of a satellite launch vehicle based on the Agni-3 (with a third composite stage and perhaps the small-upper-stage under the payload bay)?

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Postby p_saggu » 27 Mar 2008 02:54

Image

If this can be built and successfully used, How difficult is the MMR for the LCA? (I hope this comparision is not too apples and oranges)
Also is the radar similar across all our SSMs?

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Postby Venkarl » 27 Mar 2008 02:56

Gerard wrote:India tests 'Agni-U' missile
The two-stage Agni incorporates a slightly modified Augmented Satellite Launch Vehicle (ASLV) design in its second stage.


Gurus, I smell some ASAT missile capability testing here. :twisted:

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Postby Gerard » 27 Mar 2008 03:21

Indian Space Launch Vehicles and ICBM (sic)
http://www.cdi.org/pdfs/IndiaICBM.pdf

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Postby ramana » 27 Mar 2008 03:36

That AgniU is an incorrect story and Gerard has posted it in the media thread. They took an old 1989 story about the Agni_TD and rehashed it.

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Postby Gerard » 27 Mar 2008 04:23


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Postby Austin » 27 Mar 2008 08:37

ramana wrote:
The DRDO wants to develop an interceptor for a missile fired from a 5,000 km range which would require a kill altitude of 250 km by 2011-12.



Question here:

1) if DRDO develops an interceptor with an altitude of 250 Km , will that require a new type of KV , one that uses IIR homing instead of ARH as in case of PAD , perhaps even an all solid fuel missile ?

2 ) If this new ABM can intercept a BM with a ICBM class range , does it means that it will have the capability to deal with ICBM with 5000 - 20000 km range ?

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Postby ramana » 27 Mar 2008 10:08

1) Yes.
2) The re-entry velocity for a 5000km range body will be ~ 4.5km/sec. The same for an ICBM is 7km/sec. This is US NMD type vehicle for ICBM targets.

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Postby Singha » 27 Mar 2008 10:15

a big new HTK vehicle using IIR technology and hot gas thrusters for powerful and swift lateral movements is probably wants needed. the rest are falling in place wrt lower stages and ground based ATM radars.

ideally I would think these be designed for both land use (mobile on trains
parked near ingress routes) and seaborne using a new cruiser design that
is purely AAW/LACM and ATBM, deleting the huge space wasted for the
helicopter hanger and landing deck. on the foredeck, the ATBM/LACM tubes
of 10m depth and the 6m AAW SAM in the middle and back where the helos were.

that way, we can rapidly deploy a portable ATBM shield to anyplace we
want like Andaman islands where land infra is austere and no trains exist.
we can also beef up our coastal defences by parking a ship next to a city.

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Postby Arun_S » 27 Mar 2008 13:19

Singha wrote:a big new HTK vehicle using IIR technology and hot gas thrusters for powerful and swift lateral movements is probably wants needed. the rest are falling in place wrt lower stages and ground based ATM radars.

ideally I would think these be designed for both land use (mobile on trains
parked near ingress routes) and seaborne using a new cruiser design that
is purely AAW/LACM and ATBM, deleting the huge space wasted for the
helicopter hanger and landing deck. on the foredeck, the ATBM/LACM tubes
of 10m depth and the 6m AAW SAM in the middle and back where the helos were.

that way, we can rapidly deploy a portable ATBM shield to anyplace we
want like Andaman islands where land infra is austere and no trains exist.
we can also beef up our coastal defences by parking a ship next to a city.

Coastal defense is not possible by just parking a ship nearby, one would also need a string of radars few hundred km away at enough dispersion (to avoid DOP dilution of precision) for necessary accuracy of determining and predicting target trajectory. 360 degree protection required 360 degree mesh of radars.

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Postby Arun_S » 27 Mar 2008 13:24

p_saggu wrote:Image

If this can be built and successfully used, How difficult is the MMR for the LCA? (I hope this comparision is not too apples and oranges)
Also is the radar similar across all our SSMs?


ABM radar is much simpler, it is already cued and and has no unwanted reflections/interference from other objects. Unlike LCA radar it does not need to detect fast moving target against background ground clutter or do ground mapping.

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Postby Singha » 27 Mar 2008 16:30

well the CG(X) looks like it will have a gigantic ATBM radar and have a
square rather than hexagonal superstructure shape to permit the biggest
possible panel aperture.

out in the middle of pacific there aint no advanced support , but unkil can
and will use radars in taiwan, japan, hawaii and aleutian for early warning I suppose.

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Postby Austin » 27 Mar 2008 20:12

Thanks Ramana .
Well Unkil has almost covered the globe with GBR , FBR and Sea Based Radar , besides I think the good old BMEWR can generate a good track.

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Postby negi » 27 Mar 2008 20:40

ramana wrote:1) Yes.
2) The re-entry velocity for a 5000km range body will be ~ 4.5km/sec. The same for an ICBM is 7km/sec. This is US NMD type vehicle for ICBM targets.

Saar what sort of interception altitude are talking here ? in our case a 250 Km altitude is impressive.

Imo this would mean possibility of intercepting the MIRV payload itslef before it dispenses the individual warheads/decoys.

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Postby Kalantak » 27 Mar 2008 22:37

rocky wrote:
Gerard wrote:DRDO sets its sights on launch of Agni-III ballistic missile in April
It can carry warheads weighing 1.5 tonnes over a distance of more than 3,500 km.

Have they increased the "official" range?
This is the first time I'm hearing a 1.5 tonne payload rather than a 1 ton ...


This news item from Dec 2007 clarifies some points.

Breakthrough in missile technology : DRDO scientists develop composite rocket motor casings
HYDERABAD: In a major technological breakthrough that will drastically reduce the weight of missiles and enable them to reach longer ranges with heavier payloads, DRDO scientists have developed composite rocket motor casings.

...
[quote]ASL Director Avinash Chander told The Hindu here on Friday: “This is a major breakthrough, which provides us the key technology to go into longer missions with lighter weight.â€

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Postby Kalantak » 27 Mar 2008 22:42

Has the BR Missile Forces webpage taken into consideration the above news item?

The successful development of the CRMC tech changes many things from payload, range and even the cost of manufacture of the missile.

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Postby ramdas » 27 Mar 2008 22:47

Does large mean 2m dia ?

Also CRMC motors seem to have higher chamber pressures. Average chamber pressure is ~40 atm for maraging steel cases while closer to 90-100 atm for composite cases. For any first stage , this makes a big differencein performance.

Also, if this is the first large composite motor casing in DRDO, did the Agni III 's so far use only maraging steel casing ?

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Postby Arun_S » 28 Mar 2008 07:53

ramdas wrote:Also, if this is the first large composite motor casing in DRDO, did the Agni III 's so far use only maraging steel casing ?

Your answer in BR Agni missile page see the Agni-III section.

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Postby Singha » 28 Mar 2008 10:00

of late india seems to have adopted the US approach of dropping its
pants to show off but keeping the real crown jewels hidden.

indicates a great degree of confidence that we can take on and do a
smackdown on anything coming up against us.

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Postby Arun_S » 28 Mar 2008 11:03

Kalantak wrote:
rocky wrote:
Gerard wrote:DRDO sets its sights on launch of Agni-III ballistic missile in April
It can carry warheads weighing 1.5 tonnes over a distance of more than 3,500 km.

Have they increased the "official" range?
This is the first time I'm hearing a 1.5 tonne payload rather than a 1 ton ...


This news item from Dec 2007 clarifies some points.

Breakthrough in missile technology : DRDO scientists develop composite rocket motor casings
[quote]Most of the missiles today had metallic rocket motor casings made of maraging steel or other varieties of steel. With weight being a critical factor, the trend world over was to move over to composite carbon filament wound motors. “Our aim is to have as low a weight as possible,â€

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Postby p_saggu » 28 Mar 2008 23:17

So does the 40% figure account for the range, given the dimensions of the K-15?

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Postby Gerard » 28 Mar 2008 23:44


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Postby Gerard » 29 Mar 2008 04:15


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Postby bala » 29 Mar 2008 04:28

I don't understand why the frick would anyone be concerned about Pukestan like the above two articles seem to be. Who gives a flying frick about a timbuktu country like Pukestan and for what: defending Islam and terrorism.

Not even in the league folks, please given up the inane comparisons. The only threat that a missile defence shield would be to render the chinese missiles as duds.

The other reason why the US is talking to India, is because of the success of the PAD program by DRDO. Success has a way of attracting attention from the powerful.

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Postby ShibaPJ » 29 Mar 2008 05:24

Both links Gerard posted above are interesting psy-ops of 'Sky is falling' kind. Unkil started the rumour-mills humming as Indian ABM tests were successful, to check

a) if it is possible to kill Indian abilities by offering previous gen ABM tech and get domestic R&D stiffled
b) to discuss and find out true Indian intentions and capabilities

So, of course the western doves/ pigeons get alarmed and start the chorus 'Sky is falling, Indian tech/ C&C is unstable, Pukis will start puking more blah blah'. Morons looked the other way, when PRC set up M-XX/ babur assembly and green painting jobs in Pukiland and then come back and say India is the bad boy blah blah :twisted: Utter BS!!!

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Postby ranganathan » 29 Mar 2008 05:32

Unkil is getting desperate. I hope the AD-1/AD-2 are tested soon.

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Postby NRao » 29 Mar 2008 06:17

Gents,

I THINK the tech US is offering is hit-to-kill. India IIRC does not have that - we have proximity or "blast-to-kill".

The issue is whether Indian techies have been developing that tech too. I suspect they are.

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Postby ranganathan » 29 Mar 2008 06:19

Unkil can keep his hit to kill. I remember DRDO scientist did mention hit to kill capability for ABM.

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Postby ShibaPJ » 29 Mar 2008 06:22

NR,
HTK was rumoured by DDM as one of the items offered; from US side press releases, it has been PAC-3, something which has been bettered by AAD/ PAD test specs.

Do we seriously believe, US will share HTK tech, when it sanctions obsolete chip exports to India?


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