Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Raj Malhotra
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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 21 Jul 2008 00:20

K Mehta wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
Boost phase intercept: Fighter aircraft with integrated data on launch from satellites and hypersonic/supersonic missile.

:shock: seems like a totally new solution to the problem.
Multiple kill vehicles for BMD: Small multiple kinetic energy kill vehicles will be used in this case which can do autonomous kill with/without guidance from command centre.

could you elaborate ? I'm unsure what this means ?

Multiple kill vehicles which can vector and neutralize MIRVs, just like MIRVs but used against them.
I thought the boost phase intercept thing looks very similar to the US concept/rumour based on AMRAAM?
Raj Malhotra wrote:Anything about
Anti Radiation missiles
Air to Air missiles apart from Astra for WVR range?

No and no. But he showed data on astra mk-1 - 80km, mk-2 -100 km.
prashanth wrote:Awesome.Is this system mobile? Could really work wonders if integrated with Akash. :D
F22 is said to have an RCS of less than 0.01 sqm.

It is the LRTR, a derivative of green pine but more powerful than green pine radar from Israel.


Any details about Astra mark-2, whether it just improved? has ramjet or booster motor for increased range? sensor improvement?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Baljeet » 21 Jul 2008 06:44

Rahul M wrote:
Boost phase intercept: Fighter aircraft with integrated data on launch from satellites and hypersonic/supersonic missile.

:shock: seems like a totally new solution to the problem.
Multiple kill vehicles for BMD: Small multiple kinetic energy kill vehicles will be used in this case which can do autonomous kill with/without guidance from command centre.

could you elaborate ? I'm unsure what this means ?


Rahul

Actually Boost Phase Intercept was our holy grail about 7 years ago. There was an article from one of DRDO Engineer who spoke on condition of anonymity to TOI or Hindu or some other news media years back, I am not sure if one of the archived Missile Tech Thread still has that info or not. When I first heard about it, I fell from my chair, I floated that idea with a friend of mine who worked at Raytheon that time, he was a kind of Missile Geekazoid. He said, " We know what India is working on, they have the best brains and ideas that will come to fuition by end of First Decade of this century". Very prophetic words that are coming true.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby AshokS » 21 Jul 2008 08:29

K Mehta wrote:prashanth each radar is needed. diff radars have diff uses. Aerostats, ground radars, AEW/AWACS. Other radars are required to cover shadow regions or blind spots of main radars. Nowadays redundancy is the key. In the presentation, he talked about integrated air defence that is different radars, like Aerostats, ground radars, AEW/AWACS, LRTR, Rajendra etc, giving information to the Launch control center, which in turn controls all other air defence units like Akash, AAD, LR-SAM, SR-SAM etc. It would be a seamless integrated radar coverage and Air defence protection.


In the early 1990s when Bharat-Rakshak did not exist and most jingos fought it out on soc.culture.indian / rec.aviation.military USENET groups (including your's truly)... I had proposed the same need for an countrywide air defence network that would create an integrated map by digitally tying together these radars systems and missiles.....

What was interesting was that I still remember getting an email to my .edu email account from someone in India on an ERNET account (remember those, before the Indian .edu domains were available), wanting me to clarify how I thought the digitally integrated radar network would work.

I would like to think that I planted the seed in their minds.... 8)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby narayana » 21 Jul 2008 11:05

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument

After a string of successful missile tests, India will undertake the climax trials of its indigenous third generation anti-tank missile 'Nag' next week.
The 'fire and forget' anti-tank missile, named after the King of snakes, Cobra, would undergo its final baptism trials for two days next week in the Pokhran desert, almost 22 years after it was first conceived, DRDO officials said.


Any News about Helina?were there any successful test of Helina in Past?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby nayar » 21 Jul 2008 11:24

Boost phase intercept: Fighter aircraft with integrated data on launch from satellites and hypersonic/supersonic missile.[/quote]
:shock: seems like a totally new solution to the problem.
Multiple kill vehicles for BMD: Small multiple kinetic energy kill vehicles will be used in this case which can do autonomous kill with/without guidance from command centre.
[/quote][/quote]

A better idea could be a UCAV fitted with one of these A-A missiles hovering over enemy territory to spot and destroy BM mizziles in boost phase (Copyright Nair)....or maybe the UCAV itself can act by as the missile.....this will be cost effective too and can save the lives of our pilots coz to destroy a missile in boost phase you have to be atleast 100km of the missile and those missile launchers or silos will definitely guarded by ant-aircraft systems.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Jul 2008 13:00

Admins

Please go through the post from Ayesha and do the needful

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rishi » 21 Jul 2008 13:07

Aditya_V wrote:Admins

Please go through the above post from Ayesha and do the needful


The troll has been banned

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby andy B » 21 Jul 2008 13:08

"Boost phase intercept: Fighter aircraft with integrated data on launch from satellites and hypersonic/supersonic missile.[/quote]seems like a totally new solution to the problem."

I read an article not so long ago about the PAC-3 being modified and carried on the F-15 to be used for ABM/ASAT defense. The proposal didnt find enough support and probably wasnt viable enough.

Having said that though it would be awesome to see Rambha doing the same and kickin chicom BMs and Satellites outta da sky..... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Anujan » 21 Jul 2008 18:59

After a string of successful missile tests, India will undertake the climax trials of its indigenous third generation anti-tank missile 'Nag' next week.

What on earth is a climax trial ? Is it when Rajinikanth is pitted against a nag missile 4 hours into the trials ? In which case I already know what is going to happen.... :P On a serious note to the gurus: is that a misprint or a standard lingo that I dont know ?


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby chaitanya » 21 Jul 2008 22:15

I know this is slightly OT, but how difficult would it be to convert this new LRTR into an Aegis type system for use on naval ships? Would the size of the radar be the primary issue?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby NRao » 22 Jul 2008 07:26

It would have fused sensors to reduce weight, with no/very few moving parts in sensors.


Specially an AESA would be just great.

Boost phase intercept: Fighter aircraft with integrated data on launch from satellites and hypersonic/supersonic missile.


A few observations:
* Network centricity has been accomplished
* This could be used for boost phase along the Western border and perhaps even a reliable early warning up north/east

I recall an article - some 3 years ago or more - which talked about bombing the mountains that house TSP N-Missiles so that the rock formations collapse and render all of them unusable.

All this will impact NWS status.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby narayana » 22 Jul 2008 11:45

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/pr ... ssile.html


The IAF has signed on the dotted line for a squadron of Akash missiles, but it has represented to the MoD formally that in its present form, the Akash does not meet certain qualitative requirements set down (manoeuverability), nor have some capabilities been satisfactorily demonstrated by DRDO, including the engagement of low-level targets. It has therefore asked that the unit price of the missile system be brought down by a specified percentage to make up for the shortfall in desired capability.


Funny,The IAF is trying Arm twisting and Psy-ops tactics on indigenous stuff,where as they jump to buy phoren maal just seeing the attractive brochures.only God can save this country

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Anujan » 22 Jul 2008 11:52

narayana wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/price-war-over-akash-missile.html
Funny,The IAF is trying Arm twisting and Psy-ops tactics on indigenous stuff,where as they jump to buy phoren maal just seeing the attractive brochures.only God can save this country

narayana-saar,
This is just some storm in a tea cup. Shiv aroor claims that he heard from some officials about their "displeasure" about Akash's cost. At the same time please note that IAF has been quite supportive of indigenous efforts (Tarang, Vetrivale, Lakshya, LCA, Dhruv) and in the context of Akash, there is no complaint about the quality, mobility, reaction time etc. BDL is a PSU, and as far as GOI is concerned, it is just subtracting some money from the MoD column and writing it in the BDL column.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby narayana » 22 Jul 2008 12:20

lakshmic wrote:
narayana wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/price-war-over-akash-missile.html
Funny,The IAF is trying Arm twisting and Psy-ops tactics on indigenous stuff,where as they jump to buy phoren maal just seeing the attractive brochures.only God can save this country

narayana-saar,
This is just some storm in a tea cup. Shiv aroor claims that he heard from some officials about their "displeasure" about Akash's cost. At the same time please note that IAF has been quite supportive of indigenous efforts (Tarang, Vetrivale, Lakshya, LCA, Dhruv) and in the context of Akash, there is no complaint about the quality, mobility, reaction time etc. BDL is a PSU, and as far as GOI is concerned, it is just subtracting some money from the MoD column and writing it in the BDL column.



Thanks lakshmic,if IAF is supportive to indigenous stuff,its really good and it can fetch us more in long run,its disheartening and it hurts to see so many DDM reports about so many problems in indigenous stuff everyday,either its LCA our IGDMP program,Arjun etc

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby K Mehta » 22 Jul 2008 12:26

NRao wrote:Specially an AESA would be just great.

It will not be AESA but MEMS based sensor which doesnt need hydraulics for movement, this would reduce the moving parts, resulting in lesser weight due to removal of those parts. Note AESA is for RADAR based sensors only(as per my understanding), while MEMS can be used for IR, RF MMW etc. AESA on ships is already there, MFSTAR on P-15A is AESA.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby KiranM » 22 Jul 2008 21:13

Hi folks,
Just out of curiosity why do we have to go into LRSAM/ BARAK 2 when we can use AAD itself? I understand we need different weapon platforms for redundancy and overlap for efficient air defense using different methods (RF, IIR, etc). But cant we do the same using a common missile body but different seekers (though a multi-mode seeker will be the ultimate killer :twisted: )?
Just as a surface-to-surface role is intended for AAD, cant we think of using Brahmos for Air defence? More or less instead of the Prithvi body since Brahmos will be more in number and hence achieve a commonolity of logistics?

Regards,
Kiran

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2008 00:48

K Mehta wrote:
NRao wrote:Specially an AESA would be just great.

It will not be AESA but MEMS based sensor which doesnt need hydraulics for movement, this would reduce the moving parts, resulting in lesser weight due to removal of those parts. Note AESA is for RADAR based sensors only(as per my understanding), while MEMS can be used for IR, RF MMW etc. AESA on ships is already there, MFSTAR on P-15A is AESA.


I went back to my post and noted that I misinterpreted what you had posted. I took it to mean conformal, which was wrong.

However, even "fused" normally means the results of many sensors being combined to provide one picture. This should have nothing to do with moving or not moving parts and thus weight.

(Conformal sensors, no matter what type/s, will have significantly less weight.)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby asbchakri » 23 Jul 2008 08:37

KiranM wrote:Hi folks,
Just out of curiosity why do we have to go into LRSAM/ BARAK 2 when we can use AAD itself? I understand we need different weapon platforms for redundancy and overlap for efficient air defense using different methods (RF, IIR, etc). But cant we do the same using a common missile body but different seekers (though a multi-mode seeker will be the ultimate killer :twisted: )?
Just as a surface-to-surface role is intended for AAD, cant we think of using Brahmos for Air defence? More or less instead of the Prithvi body since Brahmos will be more in number and hence achieve a commonolity of logistics?

Regards,
Kiran


I'm no guru in this area but I dont think so. Barak 1 weighs around 98 Kg and AAD weighs around 1,200 kg. Imagine putting 48 of these on ships (P15A etc). Also Length of Barak1 is 2175 mm and AAD is of 7.5met. These are of Barak 1 and I do not have details of Barak-2 but i supppose if we even take doublweof everything for Barak-2/NG, they are less than AAD. But if they modify it though to be a LRSAM, it might work. But not in present form i suppose.

Just my layman thoughts :D

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby K Mehta » 23 Jul 2008 17:07

NRaoji, sorry to be confusing.
1) Sensors will be fused, more than one type of image generated from the same sensor.
2) Sensor will be MEMS steered to have no/minimal moving parts in case of sensor.
Conformal sensor will be needed to be on greater area for higher area of coverage as compared to MEMS steered sensors. MEMS steered sensor(s) can cover more area without movement like AESA RADAR.
PS there will be conformal sensors too. Put all three together and you have next gen tech.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Austin » 23 Jul 2008 20:37

I saw the list of DRDO and I think many of this wish list of DRDO has also to do with its Golden Jubilee Year 2008 - 2009 , It would certainly like to make full use of it and try to present all its ambitious project in a good light and gain as much as favours from its political masters for it.

I am not trying to be cynical here , but in the past 6 months I have heard more DRDO "Top Secret" project coming out of its cold box then what I have heard in past 6 - 10 years

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby narayana » 23 Jul 2008 23:29

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/na ... rials.html

Next week, Nag, the indigenously developed third generation anti-tank guided missile (3GATGM) will begin terminal trials at the Pokhran range in Rajasthan. Spread across three days, the Nag will be fired at ceiling range against upto seven armoured targets (both moving and static), including with the top-attack capability. These are planned to be the final trials of the missile's development phase. A round of confirmatory trials and user trials with the Army will be carried out either next month of early September.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby A Sharma » 24 Jul 2008 21:27

India to test interceptor missile

To speed up its efforts to build a missile defence shield, India will next week test an interceptor with capabilities to destroy enemy missiles in and outside the atmosphere.

"This interceptor missile has the capability to intercept an in-coming enemy missile at 40-km altitude and it can carry a warhead weighing 25 kg," a top Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) scientist said here today.

If the test is successful, India will get into an elite league of nations with indigenous capabilities to intedict enemy missiles in both endo-(less than 30-km) and exo-atmospheric (above 40-km) altitudes.

This will be the second time that Indian defence scientists will attempt to intercept an incoming target at altitudes above 40 kms.

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientists had first carried out such a test in 2006 and last December when they successfully intercepted a ballistic missile in endo-atmospheric altitudes.

The long range anti-missile missile would equip India with capacities that could be put to use in protecting populated areas and vital installations such as nuclear plants, oil and gas wells, airports and seaports.

Provided with a radar system to track incoming enemy missiles, the anti-missile interceptor missile would get automatically activated and could within seconds destroy the enemy missile.

The interceptor missile is an answer from India to the ballistic missile capabilities of Pakistan and China, both possessing arsenal capable of hitting Indian targets south of the Vindhyas.

The in-built guidance system would carry the interceptor missile to the enemy missile, finally destroying it in the exo-atmospheric altitudes, thereby ensuring safety and protection of the vital installations below.

Initially christened the 'Prithvi Air Defence' (PAD) system, the interceptor missile is likely to be renamed as 'Pradyumna', DRDO scientists said.

The missile defence system would be ready for operational deployment after the DRDO scientists carry out a couple of more tests that could take about six months to a year, officials said.

"The test is likely to be conducted at Chandipur-On-Sea off the coast of Bay of Bengal in Orissa. The project's Phase-I will be completed by 2009 but the system would get clearance for operational use only by 2012 or 2013," the scientists said.

Comparable to the Israeli's Arrow-I and the US' Patriot (PAC-3) missile defence systems, 'Pradyumna', if successful, is likely to steal a march over the two international players eyeing the much-awaited tenders from India for such a system.

Whether Pradyumna would be a contender for India's immediate missile defence system needs would be known much after scheduled November 2008 tests of the missile system, DRDO scientists said.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby chetak » 24 Jul 2008 23:31

Austin wrote:I saw the list of DRDO and I think many of this wish list of DRDO has also to do with its Golden Jubilee Year 2008 - 2009 , It would certainly like to make full use of it and try to present all its ambitious project in a good light and gain as much as favours from its political masters for it.

I am not trying to be cynical here , but in the past 6 months I have heard more DRDO "Top Secret" project coming out of its cold box then what I have heard in past 6 - 10 years



You have hit the nail on the head!
Yup. Be cynical, be very cynical.
DRDO is scratching where it itches the most.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 25 Jul 2008 02:40

India to test 'interceptor' missile again

NEW DELHI: India will take another step towards developing a ballistic missile defence (BMD) system in the next few days when it tests an "interceptor" missile against an "incoming enemy" missile over the Bay of Bengal.


The impending third test from the Wheeler Island off Orissa's coast will be that of an "exo-atmospheric" hypersonic interceptor missile, which will take on "a longer range enemy" missile, in the 2,000-km class, at an altitude of around 80-km this time.


After the third test, DRDO plans to test both the "exo" and "endo" interceptor missiles together in an integrated mode by September-October. In Phase-I, a BMD system capable of taking on "2,000-km class targets" is being developed. Phase-II, in turn, will be geared towards tackling threats from missiles up to 5,000-km, said sources.


DRDO chief controller for missiles, V K Saraswat, had earlier told TOI that the BMD system of Phase-I should be ready for deployment by 2011 or so, after several tests against a variety of missiles to ensure "a kill probability of 99.8%".


Consequently, there have been some Israeli and French imprints in the ongoing development of India's BMD system. The crucial long-range tracking radars (LRTRs) used to detect and track the 'enemy' missile as well as guide the interceptor to it, for instance, can be traced to the two Israeli Green Pine early-warning and fire control radars imported by India in 2001-2002.

Similarly, some guidance and other technologies like IIR (imaging infra-red) seekers will require international collaboration in Phase-II. "Other technologies to be developed include divert and attitude control systems, hypersonic aerodynamics, kill vehicle and the like," said a source.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sunilUpa » 25 Jul 2008 02:43

Another report of the same test;

Aiming for missile shield, India to again test interceptor rocket

By Ritu Sharma
New Delhi, July 24 (IANS) In a significant step towards developing a missile defence shield, India will for the second time test-fire a missile to intercept an incoming target in the exo-atmosphere - above 40 km altitude - in the next few days. The first test of the interceptor missile was conducted in 2006.

On December 6 last year, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had for the second time successfully tested an endo-atmospheric - below 30 km altitude - version of the ballistic missile defence shield.

“This time the interceptor missile, which carries a warhead weighing up to 25 km, will be tested to target a missile in the exo-atmosphere over a longer range,” a senior DRDO official told IANS. The official declined to be named.

Aiming to protect populated areas and vital installations like nuclear power stations and oil wells, the DRDO will be testing the missile shield both in the endo-atmosphere and exo-atmosphere in November.

The missile shield will have highly sensitive radars to track incoming missiles and an interceptor that can destroy it. The guidance system in the shield would ensure that the two missiles collide within a matter of seconds, thereby saving vital targets from destruction.

Baptised as the Prithvi Air Defence system, the agile interceptor has now been renamed as Pradyumna.

DRDO needs to carry out at least three to four trials with both versions before the missile shield ready for operational use.

“The test is likely to be conducted Chandipur off the Orissa coast. Phase I of this programme is slated to be completed by 2009, while it is to secure operational clearance by 2012-13,” the official said.

DRDO says its missile system is comprable to the Israeli Arrow system and the American Patriot system, both of whose manufacturers are courting the Indian defence establishment for likely orders.

DRDO expects ballistic missile shield to take care of threats from existing Chinese and Pakistani missiles. While Pakistan possesses missiles with ranges between 400 and 2,000 km, the Chinese arsenal varies from a range of 300 km to 2,800 km.

The Indian interceptor can carry a warhead weighing up to 25 kg. so no hit to kill vehicle?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby srai » 25 Jul 2008 09:55

sunilUpa wrote:Another report of the same test;

Aiming for missile shield, India to again test interceptor rocket

...

The Indian interceptor can carry a warhead weighing up to 25 kg. so no hit to kill vehicle?


Even the Israeli Arrow BMD is not hit to kill. According to them, it is much less complicated and does it job effectively.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 25 Jul 2008 10:31

read the nxtbook article on ABM posted in BR recently. seems the arrow2 detonated
around 50m away for target.

HTK could be another fast one pulled by US arms dealers to garner more funds.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Jul 2008 10:58

I saw the list of DRDO and I think many of this wish list of DRDO has also to do with its Golden Jubilee Year 2008 - 2009 , It would certainly like to make full use of it and try to present all its ambitious project in a good light and gain as much as favours from its political masters for it.

I am not trying to be cynical here , but in the past 6 months I have heard more DRDO "Top Secret" project coming out of its cold box then what I have heard in past 6 - 10 years



I don't know about this conclusion. If you piece together what DRDO is leaking, it makes for a very destabilising and sober scenario. One that negates any balance of power (with Pakistan certainly). They would not be making these claims unless they are serious.

To explicate.

-some months ago, I posted that the Agni III thrust vector first stage motor implied a defense against boost phase missile defences. That is, it signalled a robust Indian missile system designed from the outset to counter threats not yet fielded.

-there have been repeated and cryptic references to loitering missiles-a concept that seems counter intuitive. But the question really is-what would they loiter for? A tank to exit from its underground parkade? Not likely. The only target sufficiently high value would be a nuclear payload carrying vehicle. As aircraft will be dealt with in more conventional ways, missile and counter-air patrol, this delivery vehicle would be a missile. A missile exiting its silo or more likely in boost phase-that is what a loitering, likely hypersonic missile would reasonably be seeking. The missile would possibly loiter in orbit.

-a likely kill mode would be hypersonic kinetic kill-KALI?? Kinetic Attack Loitering Interceptor??

-If the missile does not loiter in orbit, it gets more interesting as there is a problem. In this scenario, it has to be released when India reasonably expects a boost phase intercept, that is when the other side launches its nuclear payloads. The only way India can be sure there will be a boost phase to intercept is when there is a missile launch-the only way of predicting that is in response to a nuclear first strike by India. Ergo gentlemen, India is preparing the technology for a first strike.


Of course all this negates the draft nuclear doctrine that posited no first use-but if anyone really believes that, it would be better to call it something more appropriate-daft nuclear doctrine?
Last edited by sanjaykumar on 25 Jul 2008 11:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby krishnan » 25 Jul 2008 11:04

Could be something on the lines of harpy

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 25 Jul 2008 11:40

harpy is a 2-bit wasp I could use my copy of TOI to swat out. copies of
Dawn or Friday Times will do as well. it cannot be harpy. to keep a wide area under watch it has to fly high. hence it has to be fully stealthy if flying within the 100,000ft range .... normal aerodynamic lift will fail far below that. Ghawk flies at 60,000ft iirc. and Ghawk can be taken out by long range SAMs all of
whom have ceiling of 100kft.

I am leaning towards a 'waverider' theory wherein it scoops down to 60,000ft
occasionally to gather oxygen, then flits upto 150,000ft, down again.... :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rupesh » 25 Jul 2008 14:00

India to test interceptor missile

New Delhi: India will next week test an interceptor with capabilities to destroy enemy missiles in and outside the atmosphere. — PTI

http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/25/stories/2008072555790100.htm

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Shankar » 25 Jul 2008 16:04

there have been repeated and cryptic references to loitering missiles-a concept that seems counter intuitive. But the question really is-what would they loiter for? A tank to exit from its underground parkade? Not likely. The only target sufficiently high value would be a nuclear payload carrying vehicle. As aircraft will be dealt with in more conventional ways, missile and counter-air patrol, this delivery vehicle would be a missile. A missile exiting its silo or more likely in boost phase-that is what a loitering, likely hypersonic missile would reasonably be seeking. The missile would possibly loiter in orbit.


loiter and kill concept is not very new and US have validated the concept number of times

The strategy works for example you first deploy the low speed ram jet type missile near an air base and then launch an air strike highly visible in the area . The enemy will surely scramble its assets in the region most likely from the base which is already in the strike zone of the loitering missile . Once out of protective embankment the cruise missile can attack itself or deploy sub muntions like hot copper discs in an area denial mode

The damage can be very very high
same way the method can be deployed by a submarine far from home shores

watch out for military scenarios next few days

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Austin » 25 Jul 2008 18:26

sanjaykumar wrote:-some months ago, I posted that the Agni III thrust vector first stage motor implied a defense against boost phase missile defences. That is, it signalled a robust Indian missile system designed from the outset to counter threats not yet fielded.



How can a flex nozzle of the first stage be effective in defeating a BPI ? The BM should first know its under attack and can then take evasive action , with a laser used in ABL for BPI it is difficult for BM to evade it.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby vivek_ahuja » 25 Jul 2008 18:46

Austin wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:-some months ago, I posted that the Agni III thrust vector first stage motor implied a defense against boost phase missile defences. That is, it signalled a robust Indian missile system designed from the outset to counter threats not yet fielded.



How can a flex nozzle of the first stage be effective in defeating a BPI ? The BM should first know its under attack and can then take evasive action , with a laser used in ABL for BPI it is difficult for BM to evade it.


Exactly. Its there simply to ensure the missile does not tumble due to aerodynamic effects during takeoff, much less do evasive maneuvers. The missile does not fly on the basis of magic, and the configuration of the Agni-III dictates this requirement from the flex nozzles. Also, given the weights involved during that phase of the flight, it is highly unlikely that any such maneuvers will be conducted even if the option existed...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby p_saggu » 25 Jul 2008 19:08

Can't the missile dispense chaff or Flares :oops: immediately after liftoff. (I know the idea of flares when the engine is belting out that fire is well too little)
But my present knowledge says during boost phase:
1. Rapid maneuvering by a missile that too an ICBM class heavy thing is not really possible, moreover what little manoeuvring it'll do will be ineffective against a ABM capable of pulling several g's
2. Chaff: may provide only some rudimentary protection.
3. Flares: :rotfl:
4. Some Sci-Fi stuff where the missile creates an electronic mirror image of itself to fool the incoming ABM. (The americans now deploy something similar). - Most likely
5. use a hypersonic missile which'll take off like a plane, be able to pull high G's throughout its flight path, Loiter in the stratosphere, do the "ulta whale" maneurere (Dipping down to breath in oxygen - as suggested by guruji), and bomb the crap out of the enemy when the time comes :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Gerard » 26 Jul 2008 01:41

with a laser used in ABL for BPI it is difficult for BM to evade it.


Fast burn first stage with a polished aluminium skin itself protected by an outer carbon ablative layer, the entire missile rotating as it quickly ascends.... combine this with a salvo launch, MIRV and countermeasures and you make things quite difficult for a missile defense system...

There are several countermeasures that the attacker might use to make the ABL’s task more difficult:

* Location: The more distance the offense can put between its launcher, and hence boost phase, and the ABL, the more challenging the ABL’s task will become.
* Fast-burn booster: By using solid fuel and other technologies to reduce booster burn time, the offense can reduce the length of the ABL’s shooting opportunity.
* Spinning booster: By spinning the entire missile during boost phase, the offense can reduce the time the laser beam can dwell on a specific point on the missile. This will increase the ABL’s power requirement, which must be met by increased dwell time or a more intense beam.
* Direct attack: Using surface-to-air missiles or interceptor aircraft, the defense can seek to shoot down the 747. Even if unsuccessful, the threat of such attack could cause the ABL to increase its standoff, thus decreasing its effectiveness.


Laser hardened missile casing structure
United States Patent 4431697

A laser hardened casing structure for a missile or the like is described herein which comprises, in a preferred embodiment, a pair of thermally protective layers with a laser hardened barrier layer sandwiched therebetween and comprising a heavy metal bearing resin impregnated carbon fabric, all of said layers being adhesively joined and secured to the outer surface of the casing structure to be protected.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Katare » 26 Jul 2008 03:00

Agni III is not TBM so it is safe from BPI. BPI needs close access (100-200KM) to the launching site for F15/14 to track and fire an interceptor missile. That continuous access to theater is available only in the forward area; long range missile would be fired from deep inside the heartland.

BPI or ICBM/IRBM is possible from space but technologies for that would take couple of decades to mature.

Flex nozzle can’t help a massive ballistic missile, trying to gain speed against gravity from zero velocity, outmaneuver a sleek AAM fired from high altitude by an interceptor. TBM can only be protected from BPI by air force combat patrolling of the theater or by fielding LR-SAM systems. BPI would only work if you have a complete air superiority/supremacy over the theater. USAF usually achieves that in first few days against little rogue nations that it attacks so a BPI makes a perfect sense for them. For a country like China and India mid course or terminal phase intercept would provide more assured chances of being able to use the ABM system.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Neela » 26 Jul 2008 03:13

Some interesting pics of the HSTDV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d7ZuQqS3oE

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 27 Jul 2008 12:52

sunilUpa wrote:Another report of the same test;

Aiming for missile shield, India to again test interceptor rocket

By Ritu Sharma
New Delhi, July 24 (IANS) In a significant step towards developing a missile defence shield, India will for the second time test-fire a missile to intercept an incoming target in the exo-atmosphere - above 40 km altitude - in the next few days. The first test of the interceptor missile was conducted in 2006.


The Indian interceptor can carry a warhead weighing up to 25 kg. so no hit to kill vehicle?


I think that this 25kg may be a typo and actual figure may be 125kg or 250kg though I would go with 125kg


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