International Aerospace Discussion

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Sanjay M
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Postby Sanjay M » 08 Apr 2008 06:08


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Postby hnair » 08 Apr 2008 06:24

That above chart, should go straight to psyops. Check India's Human Resources and Governmental spending sliver, compared to say Canada. That chart is a newer version of the NPA-led lament, "GSLV = bigger Scout LV, external help onlee!". Yeah, Kalam-thaatha Supersized a Scout LV he smuggled out from Wallops in his armpit and called it GSLV. :roll:

I remember western commentators jeering at both the solid first stage of PSLV as well as the "'60s tech of Soyuz launchers" that are still being used by the Russians. Did anyone notice that the "new and improved" NASA launcher, the Ares I looks remarkably like a combined ISRO-Roskosmos design effort? Looks like '60s tech apparently is safer and less strain on the taxpayer. When will NASA learn to respect their own accountants, instead of the private contractors' ? :P

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Postby Sanjay M » 08 Apr 2008 07:00

Well, to be fair, the index is about competitiveness, and Canada has great engineering talent. During the 1950s, they were able to produce the Avro Arrow, a supersonic fighter superior to what the US had. The US has poached many good aerospace engineers from Canada.

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Postby hnair » 08 Apr 2008 07:22

Sanjay M wrote:The US has poached many good aerospace engineers from Canada.


So shouldn't we include the near mythical Indians/POIs working in NASA to India's share :P

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Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2008 07:49

canada's main claim to fame in space seems to be building the robot arms
for the space shuttle. what else major ?

every country listed there has great engg talent, just being gora doesnt
get them A+

I wonder why Japan is rated so low..dont they have cryogenic engines
and the huge H2A GSLV ? they have even sent a satellite to moon recently.
and they are rated behind Canada :rotfl:

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Postby svinayak » 08 Apr 2008 07:53

hnair wrote:That above chart, should go straight to psyops. Check India's Human Resources and Governmental spending sliver, compared to say Canada. That chart is a newer version of the NPA-led lament, "GSLV = bigger Scout LV, external help onlee!". Yeah, Kalam-thaatha Supersized a Scout LV he smuggled out from Wallops in his armpit and called it GSLV. :roll:

I remember western commentators jeering at both the solid first stage of PSLV as well as the "'60s tech of Soyuz launchers" that are still being used by the Russians. Did anyone notice that the "new and improved" NASA launcher, the Ares I looks remarkably like a combined ISRO-Roskosmos design effort? Looks like '60s tech apparently is safer and less strain on the taxpayer. When will NASA learn to respect their own accountants, instead of the private contractors' ? :P


Which one

Image

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Postby hnair » 08 Apr 2008 08:19

Acharya, all of them are studies and the definitive one is not yet known. But in general, all of the ones you posted have:

1) a first stage that is an uprated solid stage SRB of the shuttle. GSLV gets a lot of derision because of the solid first stage. But then Unkil knows best!

2) conical crew vessel of sixties design. A very robust and cost effective design that was abandoned in pursuit of contractor gold in the 70s. Instead of a gradual transition to winged stuff, a disastrous shuttle leap of faith happened.

3) The safe 60's style launch escape tower instead of the failed shuttle type glide separation. What made the shuttle a terrible machine is the dreaded "no-escape window" after the SRBs ignite and before it gains altitude.

4) The docking interfaces of the Orion/ are derived from Soviet/Russian Universal docking designs of the 60s.

5) Land retrieval of the capsule with terminal retrorockets a la Soyuz

6) Service module cooling system is not the much vaunted shuttle radiator panel type, but the more practical Mir based on used by ISS

My point is that they make fun of the Rest of world for using "outdated"(even if vastly updated) tech. Why should the aerospace contractors' bottom lines and their "capabilities spin" be believed by the planners at NASA is what is vexing to me.

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Postby Sanjay M » 09 Apr 2008 06:07


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Postby gopal.suri » 12 Apr 2008 17:06

Russian air force regiment will receive Su-34 aircraft by 2008 end

Written on April 12, 2008 – 4:42 pm | by FIDSNS |

Army Commander Alexander Belevich announced today that the 16th air force regiment of the Russian air force will receive Su-34 aircraft by 2008 end.

Multipurpose aircraft Su-34 are in series production in Novosibirsk aircraft factory, which is a part of “Sukhoiâ€

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Postby Don » 13 Apr 2008 05:55

http://www.finanzen.net/nachricht/Regio ... sia_702629


Regional Jet Showdown in Japan, China and Russia

EMFIS.COM - 04/03/08
Emerging economies are preparing to compete in a swelling market for regional jets. The term regional jet or RJ refers to a range of short-haul turbofan powered aircraft whose use throughout the world has expanded tremendously since 1978. Industry insiders estimate this market segment will demand between 2,600 and 6,000 aircraft over the next two decades. The real question for investors is if the new emerging players can effectively compete against entrenched aircraft manufacturers in this market.

Entrenched Interests

For years, the regional jet market has been dominated by two manufacturers. Brazil’s Empresa Brasileira de Aeronáutica SA, or Embraer, has been in competition with Canada’s Bombardier Aerospace for this segment of the jet passenger aircraft market for many years.

The Embraer ERJ-145 was launched at the Paris Airshow in 1989, taking its first flight in 1995, and has undergone multiple revisions since then. In 2003, Embraer entered a joint venture under the name Harbin Embraer with Harbin Aircraft Manufacturing Corporation in China, and began assembling premanufactured kits in China. This jet family is largely being supplanted by Embraer’s E-Jet family at present. Orders for the ERJ-145 line are down, and E-Jet orders are up. Embraer’s E-Jet family was launched at the Paris Air Show in 1999, entering production in 2002. This jet family consists of several variants, and is presently the most popular family of regional jets.

Bombardier Aerospace is the closest competitor to Embraer with their Canadair Regional Jet (CRJ) family of regional jets. The CRJ launched in 1992, and is widely used around the world today. The CRJ aircraft come in a variety of models, and have been upgraded numerous times over the years. The most recent of these is the CRJ1000, launched in February 2007 and scheduled to enter service late in 2009. Bombardier started a new family of jets called the C-series, and then folded it in January of 2006. In January of 2007 they restarted the program, but have yet to announce when production of the new jets will begin.

Russia’s Sukhoi Superjet 100

Russia’s Sukhoi Civil Aircraft was the first jet manufacturer in an emerging economy to announce plans to compete in this jet market segment. Sukhoi first showed its Superjet 100, formerly known as Sukhoi Russian Regional Jet (RRJ), to the public on September 26, 2007. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2008.

The plane is delayed at this point, having missed its December target to start test flights, and Sukhoi faces multi-million dollar fines if they fail to deliver on schedule. Evgeny Shago, an expert at Ingosstrakh Investments, revealed that "the Aeroflot contract with UAC includes extremely serious fines for late delivery as well as for failing to meet acceptable quality standards. Their contract is worth US$800 million and we can expect the fines to total up to 20% of that. Such a sum threatens the profitability of the entire Superjet project."

Sukhoi’s jet is projected to have a 10-15 percent lower operational cost than its Bombardier and Embraer competitors. Priced at about $28 million, the Superjet 100 will also be about 18-22 percent cheaper than its competitors. The jet is of an advanced design, and meets all the major aviation standards.

The Superjet 100 has garnered 73 orders and 46 options, mostly from Russian customers. Sukhoi hopes to market approximately 700 of the aircraft in North America, Europe, Latin America, Russia and China.

China’s ACAC ARJ21

China’s AVIC I Commercial Aircraft Company (ACAC) is the second player to announce entry into the regional jet marketplace with their ARJ21 regional jet. ACAC began final assembly of the aircraft in March 2007, and the maiden voyage was scheduled for March 2008, but the flight was delayed. Final certification from the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) and first deliveries to customers are expected in the third quarter of 2009.

The ARJ21 has delayed its maiden voyage, and there is some uncertainty about exactly when the plane will be ready. ACAC has announced that the maiden voyage will be delayed by at least six months, and expects the flight to take place in September or October of 2008. Some of the project’s key suppliers were unable to complete equipment testing to meet the requirements of ACAC on schedule. The company now has only 12 months to complete the certification process.

ACAC already has a number of orders and options for the ARJ21, with a total of 181 domestic orders at present. The company is attempting to market the aircraft overseas, having signed a deal with China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp to help market the planes overseas. GE Commercial Aviation Services is the first foreign company to order the plane, with 5 orders and an option for 20 more.

Japan’s Mistubishi MRJ

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd (MHI), has announced plans to enter the regional jet marketplace. The company will establish Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp as a joint venture with Toyota Motor Corp, Mitsubishi Corp, Mitsui & Co Ltd, Sumitomo Corp and the Development Bank of Japan. Mitsubishi Aircraft will build the Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ).

The MRJ is still in the development phase, and will likely deliver the first aircraft in 2013. It is a compact jetliner designed to compete with the regional jets from all the other firms already mentioned in this column. The MRJ will be about 20 percent more efficient than competing aircraft from Embraer and Bombardier, and will use advanced lightweight carbon fiber technology.

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp will be capitalized at ¥3 billion (US$30 million) as of April 2008, with a plan to increase the capital to ¥100 billion in a year as business operations develop. "Development costs are expected to reach ¥150 to ¥180 billion," President Tsukuda said. "In addition, investment in the volume production facility is likely to be tens of billions of yen."

All Nippon Airways Co Ltd (ANA) announced on March 27 that they would order 15 of the aircraft, with an option for 10 more. Mitsubishi is also attempting to sell the jets to Japan Airlines and to Vietnam Airlines, though no orders have been placed at this time. The MRJ will be the first Japanese commercial jet produced since 1973.

Market Size

In this industry, there seems to be a lot of disagreement about exactly how much demand there will be for regional jets over the next two decades. Mitsubishi sees it as a market for 5,000 aircraft. Embraer and Bombardier estimate demand at about 2,600 to 4,300 aircraft. Sukhoi expects demand for up to 5,500 regional jets. ACAC estimates demand at about 3,000 aircraft, with one-third of the demand from the Chinese market.

The regional jet market is already dominated by Embraer and Bombardier. In the 1970’s there was a major commercial jet shakedown with several companies competing for dominance. In the end, only Airbus and Boeing survived the market fight. There are several unanswered questions about the size of the market, but regardless of the total size, there is the additional question about how many products can compete in this market.

Will there be room for 5 major competitors in the regional jet segment in 2013 when all are producing aircraft? If not, who will survive?

Forecast and Conclusion

We at Emfis see the Mitsubishi project as the most likely to fail at this stage, and the ACAC project as the most likely to succeed. Each of these projects faces its own problems and challenges, but we believe that ACAC will be the big winner among emerging market aircraft manufacturers in this segment.

Mitsubishi seems most likely to fail for several reasons. First and foremost is the simple fact that they will be the last company to enter this expanding market segment. Sukhoi and ACAC are years ahead of Mitsubishi, and by the time the first MRJ rolls of the line, a fair number of competing planes will already be in the skies.

The second most obvious problem for Mitsubishi is the fact that they have far fewer orders for their aircraft than their Russian and Chinese competitors. Of course, this could shift rapidly between today and when the first MRJ rolls off the assembly line, but again, this will be a game of catch-up for the MRJ.

The final reason is Mitsubishi’s record in delivering large scale projects. Mitsubishi’s F-2 fighter jet, developed for the Japanese air force was a costly failure for Japan’s Defense Ministry. The company’s return on equity is 3.5 percent, considerably lower than 11 percent at Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

In the end, the thing that the MRJ has going for it is advanced technology. It will be a more technologically advanced aircraft than its competitors. But we at Emfis feel this is not enough to overcome the other shortcomings of the project.

The ACAC ARJ21 seems the most likely success in this market for several reasons. One of the biggest strengths for the project is the simple fact that about 25 percent or more of the regional jet market over the next 20 years is in China. The country needs new aircraft, as the influx of wealth into the massive Chinese population has created a booming travel industry. We believe that Chinese airlines and other regional partners of the Chinese airlines will be more likely to purchase aircraft from China than from foreign competitors. Simply looking at existing orders for regional jets confirms this.

Another big strength for the ACAC project is that it has experienced fewer difficulties as it prepares for its maiden voyage. The six month delay is a problem for the company, to be sure, but in comparison to the longer and more costly delays with Sukhoi, only a minor issue. The company can still ship on time, while it looks like that may be out of the question for their Russian competitor.

Sukhoi lies in the middle ground here, and the future of the project is more difficult to determine. We at Emfis recommend caution here for investors, and believe that a wait and see attitude is best with regards to Sukhoi. The delivery deadline is very near, and so are the massive fines the company could be subjected to. We recommend waiting for the outcome of the deadlines and potential fines. Once the first jets begin to be delivered, and any fines are overcome, this could be a very profitable venture for Sukhoi.

Should the Sukhoi venture fail, then the outlook for the Mistubishi project may improve. If the Sukhoi venture succeeds, Mitsubishi will likely find itself in a much more competitive market. Therefore, we at Emfis believe it wise to observe the outcome with Sukhoi before making investment decisions regarding the Mitsubishi MRJ.

The regional jet market is of great interest right now, as competition expands and heats up. We expect the emerging market competitors to provide Bombardier and Embraer with fierce competition. With more advanced, more efficient, newer and less costly jets to compete against, the established Western companies may find their markets shrinking as airlines order increasing numbers of aircraft from the East.

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Postby Vipul » 16 Apr 2008 19:53

Boeing to test and use Tata supercomputer in India.

MUMBAI: Boeing Co is partnering with a unit of India's Tata Group to test and validate a supercomputer to run aerodynamic simulations for the aircraft maker, the two companies said in a joint statement on Wednesday.

Tata's Computational Research Laboratory will model high-lift aerodynamic simulations in three dimensions on the Eka System, the fastest supercomputer in Asia, to help design and develop airplane wings, it said.

No financial details were disclosed. "Through such high-value interactions, Indian industry is entering Boeing's global aerospace supply chain," Ian Thomas, president of Boeing India, said.

Boeing, which estimates India will need 911 planes worth $86 billion by 2027, has an agreement with Tata Industries for a joint venture in India to build defence-related aerospace components.

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Postby Sanjay M » 18 Apr 2008 07:19


Gerard
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Postby Gerard » 19 Apr 2008 05:15

Massacre of the warbirds.....
Pentagon Plans Big Sell-Off Of Aviation History
If you've ever wondered what would eventually become of the more than 4,000 old aircraft hulls sitting in the US military's boneyard at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, AZ... we now know. They'll start going on the auction block next week,
Reuters reports the Pentagon will require winning bidders to cut the scrap into pieces no larger than 4-by-4 inches, to make sure none of the old warbirds, or their parts, ever return to service.

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Postby Gerard » 19 Apr 2008 05:41

Ariane rocket launches satellites
An Ariane-5 rocket blasted off from French Guiana on Friday putting into orbit telecommunications satellites for Brazil and Vietnam, a space official said.

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Postby Gerard » 19 Apr 2008 18:01

Soyuz spacecraft lands off-target
The Russian TMA-11 landing capsule touched down some 420km away from its planned landing point in the Kazakh steppe, and some 20 minutes later than scheduled.
However, they are undergoing medical examinations after being subjected to G-forces up to 10 times those present on Earth, said spokesman Valery Lyndin.

Officials said the craft followed a so-called "ballistic re-entry" - a plunge with an uncontrollable, steep trajectory.

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Postby SaiK » 20 Apr 2008 09:14

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish ... 015548.php

Chengdu is #3 while Russkies are at 4.

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Postby Gerard » 20 Apr 2008 19:07

Air force general disciplined over 'tainted' contract
A US air force general and two other officers have been disciplined for their role in a "tainted" 50-million dollar contract
The air force is still recovering from a 2004 scandal over a 35 billion dollar contract to lease air refueling tanker planes from Boeing that sent a top former air force procurement officer to prison.

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Postby gopal.suri » 20 Apr 2008 19:42

BAE Systems starts manufacture of the first F-35 Lightning II production aircraft

BAE Systems has cut metal on its first component for the F-35 Lightning II production aircraft. This opening cut, on a component part of the aft fuselage, signifies a major milestone for the F-35 Lightning II programme.

The metal cut is for the first production F-35 Lightning II aircraft which will enter into service with the US Air Force (USAF) in 2010 and follows the production contract announcement made in December last year. The contract - a Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) contract - is worth £25m to BAE Systems and will see the production of two conventional take off and landing variants.

F136 high-altitude tests completed

The GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team has successfully completed a high-altitude afterburner testing program at the US Air Force Arnold Engineering Development Center in Tennessee, including common exhaust hardware for the F-35 Lightning II aircraft.

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Postby Sanjay M » 21 Apr 2008 05:04


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Postby Neshant » 21 Apr 2008 11:18

> canada's main claim to fame in space seems to be building the robot
> arms for the space shuttle. what else major ?

The optical lidar system on the 2 Mars rovers and orbiter as well as the Phoenix are made by Canada. Also other stuff with space probes that nasa has or intends to launch.

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Postby Gerard » 23 Apr 2008 02:07


hnair
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Postby hnair » 23 Apr 2008 03:06

Wow!! This is one sight that no pilot would want to witness firsthand....

Russia shoots down spy plane

Good it was a drone. The most graphic one I have seen yet. 8)

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Postby GuruPrabhu » 23 Apr 2008 03:12

[url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Sukhoi_Russia_warns_to_sue_China/articleshow/2973405.cms]Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China
[/url]

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Postby Gerard » 23 Apr 2008 03:19

Cause of last month's Proton launch failure determined
The Russian State Commission investigating the AMC-14 failure of a Proton Breeze M launch has traced the cause to the rupture of the gas duct between the gas generator and the propellant pump turbine in the Breeze M main engine.

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Postby Kartik » 23 Apr 2008 03:31

GuruPrabhu wrote:[url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Sukhoi_Russia_warns_to_sue_China/articleshow/2973405.cms]Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China
[/url]


finally Russia grows some balls to challenge the blatant chutiyagiri of the Chinks..

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Postby Don » 23 Apr 2008 04:43

Kartik wrote:
GuruPrabhu wrote:[url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Sukhoi_Russia_warns_to_sue_China/articleshow/2973405.cms]Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China
[/url]


finally Russia grows some balls to challenge the blatant chutiyagiri of the Chinks..


Does BR forum tolerate racial slurs now ? I agree with what he said but using racist slurs is just taking it to far and there is no proof of any export of Flankers to the Pukies whatsoever.

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Postby Kartik » 23 Apr 2008 06:04

Don wrote:
Kartik wrote:
GuruPrabhu wrote:[url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Sukhoi_Russia_warns_to_sue_China/articleshow/2973405.cms]Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China
[/url]


finally Russia grows some balls to challenge the blatant chutiyagiri of the Chinks..


Does BR forum tolerate racial slurs now ? I agree with what he said but using racist slurs is just taking it to far and there is no proof of any export of Flankers to the Pukies whatsoever.


:P you just used a racial slur against our other neighbours..

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Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2008 10:33

northrop grumann has own us navy contract for LRMP UAV. modified global
hawk design with radar to spot ships and periscopes. will work with manned
P8

the losing contenders were unmanned G550 and a Predator-mod with longer
wings and bigger payload.

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Postby shyamd » 24 Apr 2008 19:49

Dassault lets it be known through the press that it is on the point of selling its Rafale fighter aircraft (to Morocco, Libya, etc). Nothing much comes of it and they start negotiation all over again a few months later. UAE is in talks after setting up of their base to buy 20 Rafale's.

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Postby Neshant » 24 Apr 2008 21:23

Some really nice footage here :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhj8ITvp-pw

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Postby sauravjha » 25 Apr 2008 10:49

yeah that's my favourite scene from the Sum of all fears

those Kh-22s sure know how to rip, eh?

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Postby Sanjay M » 27 Apr 2008 04:57

http://www.radioiowa.com/gestalt/go.cfm ... E67C5111C9


Image

Iowa astronaut Peggy Whitson is downplaying reports she and her crew were nearly killed during last weekend's fiery return to earth aboard a Russian space capsule.

The Soyuz came down hatch-first, not using the heat shield on its belly, and fell at a very steep angle, subjecting the crew to extreme G-forces which Whitson calls "dramatic," at more than eight times the pull of gravity.
:eek:

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Postby Gerard » 27 Apr 2008 05:07

IIRC one of the cosmonauts had spent a year on board. Imagine the stress on his body going from a year in weightlessness to 8-9 Gs...

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Postby sauravjha » 28 Apr 2008 12:32

here's a paper on why the USAF still considers long range strike important. it's basically a justification for what we now call the 2018 bomber.

it's over a year old now.
http://www.afa.org/media/reports/Bomber0207c.pdf


this one is an independent assessment of the same issue. It's much more recent.

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/080 ... ssment.pdf

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Postby Vick » 29 Apr 2008 08:15


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Postby Kartik » 01 May 2008 00:24

Boeing withdraws Super Hornet from Swiss contract race [/quote]
By Stephen Trimble

Boeing today announced its decision to drop out of the competition to replace the Swiss Air Force Northrop F-5 Tiger fleet.

Boeing had prepared to bid with the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet, but withdrew after reviewing the contents of the request for proposal.

[b]“After a thorough review of Switzerland’s requirements for partial replacement of its Tiger fighter aircraft, Boeing has decided not to enter the competition due to the disparity between the requirements for an F-5 replacement aircraft and the next-generation capabilities of the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet,â€

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Postby gopal.suri » 01 May 2008 20:24

Carlo Kopp is back at it again

JSF 'at risk' from new Russian radars

May 1, 2008 - 1:24PM

Australia's new Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) combat aircraft could be vulnerable to a Russian radar technology which appears to overcome their key stealth advantage, a defence analyst has warned.

Dr Carlo Kopp, an analyst with the defence think tank Air Power Australia, says the risk was demonstrated almost a decade ago when Serbian air defences shot down a US F-117A Nighthawk stealth aircraft.

That wake-up call evidently was not heeded in the west, he said.

But the Australian Defence Force says stealth technology has advanced significantly since the Nighthawk and JSF will be very stealthy, even against the new Russian radars.

Under present plans, the RAAF is set to buy 100 of the Lockheed F-35 JSF which will enter service around the middle of 2016 and serve as Australia's principal combat aircraft to mid-century.

JSF is a very advanced combat aircraft specifically designed to be virtually invisible to radar.

Australia also is buying 24 Boeing Super Hornet aircraft which provide some stealth capability.

Stealth technology - much of which remains top secret - works by a combination of technologies designed to absorb the radar signal and ensure it doesn't bounce back to the transmitting station.

Radar operates by transmitting a signal, then detecting its return echo when it bounces off a distant aircraft.

Russian publications stated quite bluntly that US stealth designs had been largely optimised to defeat widely-used radars operating in the centimetric and decimetric bands, Dr Kopp said.

Such radars feature wavelengths around 10-100 millimetres, but new advanced Russian digital radars, now being actively marketed, operate in the VHF (very high frequency) band with wavelengths about two metres.

Dr Kopp said stealth technology was very effective at defeating centimetric and decimetric radar but much less so at remaining invisible to VHF radar.

An analysis of JSF suggested it was particularly vulnerable to detection by radars in this band because of its small size and particular design, he said.

"What is abundantly clear is that VHF radars will have much better detection performance against fighter-sized stealth aircraft compared to decimetric and centimetric band radars," he said.

Once the Russians deployed their counter-stealth radars, it was to be expected that other nations such as China would follow, Dr Kopp said.

As well, older widely-used Russian VHF radars and their associated anti-aircraft missile systems, could also be digitally upgraded to provide a substantial capability against stealth aircraft.

"The US has enjoyed an unchallenged technological monopoly on stealth capabilities for almost three decades and the notion that potential opponents would sit by idly is not realistic."

A defence spokesman said the very low observable (VLO) stealth characteristics of the JSF, as with all stealth aircraft, were optimised for specific radar frequency bands.

"However, even outside of these optimised bands a VLO aircraft is much harder to detect than a conventional aircraft," he said.

"The F-117 is an example of an early version stealth aircraft with its distinctive external shapes.

"Stealth technology has progressed significantly since the F-117 design and the latest technologies have been incorporated into the F-35 Lightning II."

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Postby Vick » 06 May 2008 09:26

From DN
May 5, 2008
[quote]Raptor Flexes Its Data-Collection Muscles

By MICHAEL HOFFMAN

UAVs are not the sole answer to collecting the intelligence, sur­veillance and reconnaissance that U.S. field commanders crave. Predators, Reapers and Global Hawks stand little chance against the air defenses that might be mustered by Iran, North Korea or China.

That’s why the F-22 Raptor was sent aloft in a recent exercise —
to use its advanced sensors to take snapshots of air and ground threats and then send them back to command posts and other aircraft.

Much of the F-22’s ISR collection capabilities remain highly classified, as does the way it sends data to ground stations, but Air Force officials confirmed that the F-22 proved it could stream data quickly. The demonstration took place during the Joint Expe­ditionary Force Experiment 2008, held April 14-25 at Langley Air Force Base, Va.

What has blocked seamless communication with other U.S. aircraft and certain ground stations is the F-22’s data link, which protects communication between F-22 pilots without tipping off the Raptor’s location.

“It’s not so much [the Raptor’s] distinct ISR capabilities as the ability to offboard the data collected by existing sensors to add to or fill gaps in the existing intelligence picture,â€

NRao
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Postby NRao » 06 May 2008 16:48

BAE review seeks bribery controls

Saudi Arabia is said to have threatened to cancel a Eurofighter order

Kartik
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Postby Kartik » 08 May 2008 00:49

a rather well written analysis of next-generation fighter issues by ELP on another forum. kind of makes me feel glad that the IAF is participating in the PAK-FA program instead of a lighter single-engined MiG program.

Stealth is not always very reliable. Note what Lockheed Martin said about the F-117 shoot-down: That a simple turn can kill your RCS by a factor of 100 or more. So if all you have is stealth, a negative stealth event isn't so good. And that was against legacy IADS. Look at what the PacRim may be in the coming years shows that some are buying up a lot of high end hardware.

The best a stealth aircraft designer can hope for is to make the jet good against radars in the 1GHz to 20GHz range. Great if it is a bat wing B-2. Add performance and bent vertical tails and that freq. range starts getting more narrow... F-22 and F-35 are not consistent all aspect stealth. F-22 and F-35 are great on the front, kind of OK on the sides and back . In the case of the F-35, the goal of being "affordable" and that freq range may be lower.

There will be multiple "configurations" of the F-35, one for the U.S., one for ABC's and one for everyone else and that may get weaker still. Lockheed doesn't decide how much stealth and high-tech U.S.defense-knownledge-ability it will export. The U.S. government does. You wouldn't want a compromise by one export partner ruining the whole stealth/tech advantage profile of every F-35 ever sold whould you?

Start dipping below the freq. range that the design was good for (small freq weapons tracking radars) and stealth aircraft start showing up. If you can guide a SAM with S-Band to the target, depending on the above mentioned things, that can be a big problem. AWACs like the D model Hawkeye and the Erieye shouldn't have a problem picking up stealth aircraft. Patriot and other tech have already been compromised to China. The tech advantage is becoming not so one-sided.

Stealth for stealths sake without hot fast and high performance to back it up is a problem. F-35 has stealth, good sensors and a small amount of missiles. F-22 has stealth, better radar, more missiles and for passive sensing of enemy radar an "antenna farm" and not a smaller amount of multi-functional antennas for passive detection to keep costs down (F-35). The ALR-94 working with the rest of the F-22 is deadly. F-35 should have ALR-94-like ability. But with a different antenna config., how much? And of course will that passive config. be part of your allowed export configuration? Tom Burbage stated back in the day that the ALR-94 is the most complex system on the F-22.

If things go into a negative stealth event for the F-22, it has super-cruise and a much higher altitude (increased effective ground speed moving across the map and USAF waivered for combat training and combat up to 67,000ft without a p-suit) to get out of bad situations. That speed and altitude give it a 50% push on range of AMRAAM shots: a better no escape zone firing solution. So just from that, an AMRAAM fired from an F-22 and an F-35 are horses of a different hue. F-22s performance will help to keep enemy firing solutions farther out. A 90 degree crossing firing solution for an enemy SAM/Fighter will be more of a problem vs a high and fast F-22 than an F-35.

Without super-cruise and higher altitude, it is hard to believe that the F-35 is a first day of the war deep into a FIRST team IADS with S-300 and S-400 family gear. These are SAMs that will be around and getting better over the career of the F-35 in the coming years.

All this in a time when US stand-off jamming is no where to be seen in quantity, even the F-22 will have work to do. Growler is just a pudgy, slow little escort jammer with yesterdays ALQ-99s that won't be able to keep up with a 5th gen. The Navy used the ALQ-99s in a claim they couldn't face future threats in an effort to get funds for the next-gen jammer. Now Navy has to put Growler on the deck in a low calorie form. So again, U.S. jamming, vs. stiff IADS will need some work.

If an F-35 and F-22 are using things like LINK-16, those network nodes are also at risk of being detected. Guess who has that gear? It starts with a C.

The type of network for the F-35 is yet to be determined. Of course there is that "afforability" thing hanging over it's head.

Newer Flankers? If it has S-300 and S-400 to keep F-35 at risk as part of a total IADs, it is a problem. Then of course there is the power output of the big radars for the new Flankers and better IRSTs, speed and altitude. While not perfect they are dangerous. Look at where the SU-35 is going. I doubt big SU can hide. However with the addition of it's IRST, high power output radar and off-board help to get in the right air space, F-22 and F-35 won't entirely undetected, golf ball vs. marble etc etc. If the F-35 gets into it with a new gen SU after BVR, The big SU will run rings around it. Again here F-22 can decide to keep at arms length. F-35 doesn't have that choice if the threat workload starts getting out of hand. None of that is a given... it is a possible risk. An operations officer in WWII Japan stated that once the P-38 and Corsair showed up, the big problem was that those aircraft could chose how and when to enter the fight. The Zero did not have that option. This holds true today. When you can chose when and how to enter the fight because of superior performance that is yet another huge advantage of F-22. Anything else without the speed/fuel-economy, might find itself bingo-fueled to death.

The F-35 is not an air superiority fighter. The F-22 is. The F-35 is primarily a strike fighter. Both have some multi-role ability.

The F-35 has a long way to prove itself. It may in fact be able to kill anything in the air and on the ground. We don't know. We are all taking the sellers word for it like a shiny new car brochure where Lockheed Martin and some in the Pentagon are becoming one and the same from a sales point of view.

I think the F-35 has the potential to be a great aircraft. Can't we just wait for that idea to prove itself over time instead of the hype?


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