Indian Military Aviation

[Rahul M]

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mi-28.php

COSTS: Mi-28N development cost US$150 million (2000); unit cost approximately US$15 million to US$16 million (2002).

Price shouldn't exceed 20 mil by much, if at all it does.

[srai]

India to Buy 22 Attack Helos for $550M

Thats too little for 22 Helos and also including weapons good luck with that I doubt even the Russians will be able to sell MI-28N for that rate.

According to this Wikipedia entry on Eurocopter Tiger, the costs are closer to USD 35-52 million per unit.

Cost

The system cost (helicopter, armament, support) depends on number and version:

* Tiger HAP $35-39 million USD
* Tiger ARH $36 million USD
* Tiger HAD $44-48 million USD
* Tiger UHT $38-43 million USD
* (Comparison Apache Longbow $48-52 million USD)

IAF, by ordering these 22 attack helos, has learned its lesson on the delays of indigenous platforms. It's obvious that the LCH will not be ready for sometime. In the meantime, IAF can maintain its force levels by replacing its Mi-25/35s, which are due for retirement in the next 5 years, with these 22 proven designs while it waits for the LCH.

[ranganathan]

The only problem is like they killed HJT-39 they can always say they don't need the LCH since they have something in the inventory. Ofcourse if the govt restricts the buy to 600 mil or less then Mi-28N is the only option. Though I think they should get the Ka-52. It can serve as the command ship leading a pair or three of LCH.

[uddu]

Another issue. It's better to let HAL build a bigger and powerful one.

India and Russia in fresh price row over helicopters
Link

Still to resolve their deadlock over the cost escalation of aircraft carrier Gorshkov, India and Russia are in a fresh price row over a deal to purchase 80 medium lift helicopters for the Indian Air Force.

Though the Ministry of Defence finalised the proposal to purchase 80 upgraded MI-17IV helicopters at a cost of over $650 million in March last year, the deal is yet to go through as Russian Company Rosoboroexport has hiked the price tag for the choppers to a billion dollars, sources said.

The Defence Ministry went ahead with the proposal to acquire the MI-17IV helicopters as the IAF expressed its preference for these helicopters.

The Helicopters are being bought by the IAF to bolster its strategic airlift capability on the mountainous Sino- Indian and Indo-Pak borders. Presently IAF operates a 12 squadron strong fleet of Mi-17 and MI-8 helicopters.

The upgraded MI-17IV helicopters are powered by two Kilmov Tv-3 engines giving them capability of landing at over 18,000 feet.

No global tenders were floated and the purchase was marked as a follow on order, but the demand for more than fifty per cent price hike has irked the Ministry of Defence.

To the dismay of the Ministry, sources said the haggling over the price comes close on the heels of Russian demand for $1.5 billion more for the delivery of the aircraft carrier Groshkov.

"Over the year, three to four meetings have been held with Russian Rosboroexport officials, but no breakthrough has been achieved," defence ministry officials said.

The price haggling has already delayed the delivery of the first batch of helicopters by almost a year, which was originally expected to arrive in later part of 2010.

But now, the Indian officials are in no mood to relent and have told the Russians that if they come back with the original proposal, New Delhi would go ahead and float global tenders for this class of helicopters.

It is for this, that the Ministry of Defence has so far not issued combined Request for Proposals for purchasing 384 light helicopters for IAF as well as Army Aviation.

These global tenders have been cleared by the Defence Acquisition council last month and Indian officials have told Moscow that if they do not conform to original proposals by June end, the purchase of this class of helicopters would be added to the helicopter tenders.

[ranganathan]

At 1 bil for 80 aircrafts it works out to 12.5 mil per chopper. Isnt that cheap for a 10 tonne chopper? Heck the ALH costs 7-7.5 mil per pop IIRC. The euro or american birds cost more. Sikorsky S-92 is 15.5 mil per pop same as puma not super puma or EC-725. The HAL 10 tonne heli won't be ready for the next 6-8 years.

[Kakarat]

IAF reopens base after 43 years

It will boost the capability to survey the strategic Karakoram highway that links China and Pakistan

— Photo: PTI

Back to life: An Indian Air Force aircraft lands at Daulatbeg Oldi airbase in Leh Division of Jammu and Kashmir on Saturday.

Leh: The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Saturday operationalised the Daulatbeg Oldi (DBO) airbase in the Ladakh region after a gap of 43 years.

An AN-32 transport aircraft carrying Air Officer-in-Chief Western Air Command Air Marshal P.K. Barbora landed at the unpaved runway at 8.50 a.m. after flying from Chandigarh.

The airbase could give India the capability to have an eye on the strategic Karakoram highway that links China and Pakistan.
Near Aksai Chin

The airbase is almost a stone’s throw away from the Aksai Chin area of Jammu and Kashmir, which had been under Chinese occupation since 1959.

The base is located at an altitude of 4,960 metres near the base of the Karakoram Pass, still held by India on the old silk trading route to Yarkand in China.
Other air fields too

The IAF plans to revive air fields at Chushul and Fukche in eastern Ladakh, also along the Chinese border.

Set up during the conflict of 1962, the base was operated with American-supplied Fairchild Packets. It was closed down in 1966 when an earthquake caused loosening of the surface soil, making the area unsuitable for fixed wing aircraft.

“As part of moves to bolster aerial and land reconnaissance capability in the strategic region, the Army carried out repair work to make the airbase operational again,â€

[arun]

Par for the course .

MI 17 price upped from USD 650 M to 1000 M by the Russians :

India and Russia in fresh price row over helicopters

[Cain Marko]

Any news on the RFP issued by the IAF for Sea Eagle replacement or supplement? I thought it was issued in 2006? Last I recall, the Harpoon and the uran were the main contenders with the NSM as an outsider.

regards,
CM.

[Raj Malhotra]

Any news on the RFP issued by the IAF for Sea Eagle replacement or supplement? I thought it was issued in 2006? Last I recall, the Harpoon and the uran were the main contenders with the NSM as an outsider.

regards,
CM.

What about french, Israeli, Swedish, Italian etc missiles??

[sanjaychoudhry]

No deck to land aircraft, navy eyes dummy

The Indian Navy is set to get the first of its new-generation aircraft carrier-based aircraft, the MiG-29K, this month with no vessel on which to land it or none from which it can take off.

So what does it do? It is getting a mock-up of a flight deck built to train naval aircrew.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080602/jsp/nation/story_9352574.jsp

[ranganathan]

Why can't NLCA land on Gorky?

[Raj Malhotra]

Cross post

When HAL tried to set up a assembly JV of medium lift helos with Ruskies, then forces kicked the proposal in the nuts. Now Russians are taking the opportunity to scr*w us. I think that Russians are doing the right thing for themselves, when there is money to be made from a corrupt nation, then nobody will let go of the chance

IIRC deal for 40 Mi-17 helos was for US$ 170million so the present deal should have been for something like US$ 400-500 million dollars but it seems that single vendor deals has its own benefits for the ____.

[ranganathan]

The 40 helo deal was ages ago. GOI can always open a tender for a few years and let HAl sneak in.

[Kartik]

Why can't NLCA land on Gorky?

who said the N-LCA can't land on the Vikramaditya? It's been configured for arrested deck landing, so the Vikramaditya should pose no problems. the N-LCA won't be able to land on the Viraat because it has no arrested recovery gear on board.

[sunilUpa]

Why can't NLCA land on Gorky?

who said the N-LCA can't land on the Vikramaditya? It's been configured for arrested deck landing, so the Vikramaditya should pose no problems. the N-LCA won't be able to land on the Viraat because it has no arrested recovery gear on board.

Surprisingly, the naval Tejas in which the Indian Navy is investing heavily will not be capable of landing and taking off from the Gorshkov.

From here

[Kartik]

Why can't NLCA land on Gorky?

who said the N-LCA can't land on the Vikramaditya? It's been configured for arrested deck landing, so the Vikramaditya should pose no problems. the N-LCA won't be able to land on the Viraat because it has no arrested recovery gear on board.

Surprisingly, the naval Tejas in which the Indian Navy is investing heavily will not be capable of landing and taking off from the Gorshkov.

From here

I'm sure the DDM author mixed up the Gorshkov and the Viraat. if the MiG-29 can land on the Gorshkov, the N-LCA should be able to do so as well. length of the runway for landing is more than adequate for a small sized N-LCA to land with arrested recovery.

[clay]

From the link.....

India contracted 12 single-seater MiG-29K and four twin-seater MiG-29 KUB aircraft as part of a $1,465-billion package deal with the Gorshkov that was rechristened the INS Vikramaditya on January 20, 2004 — $650 billion for the refit of the vessel and $815 billion for the aircraft, including helicopters. But the delivery of the Gorshkov has been delayed with the Russians demanding about $1.2 billion more. It is unlikely the carrier will be delivered before 2012 though the navy is hoping that it will go into sea trials in 2010.

I feel the reporter/editor have not paid attention.

They have misquoted the initially agreed order value as billions instead of millions as well.

All said and done the naval Tejas is being constructed for arrested landing with strengthened undercarriage and tail hook...so I guess landing on the Vikramaditya should not be a problem.

Regds, Clay

[clay]

Will DRDO/ADA be involved in the future upgrade programs for the Mirages/MIG 29 alongwith HAL?

The reason I am asking is DRDO/ADA will gain some experience and learn how to plan/implement future upgrades for the Tejas/MRCA......just thinking out aloud


Regds, Clay

[NRao]

I'm sure the DDM author mixed up the Gorshkov and the Viraat. if the MiG-29 can land on the Gorshkov, the N-LCA should be able to do so as well. length of the runway for landing is more than adequate for a small sized N-LCA to land with arrested recovery.

It does sound fishy. However, the AC needs to be designed for the slope (during takeoff). That could be the issue, which I find hard to believe.

However, the LCA predates the Vicky and it should not be a topic of interest. As long as it can used by any ships built by India that is all that counts.

[clay]

I'm sure the DDM author mixed up the Gorshkov and the Viraat. if the MiG-29 can land on the Gorshkov, the N-LCA should be able to do so as well. length of the runway for landing is more than adequate for a small sized N-LCA to land with arrested recovery.

It does sound fishy. However, the AC needs to be designed for the slope (during takeoff). That could be the issue, which I find hard to believe.

However, the LCA predates the Vicky and it should not be a topic of interest. As long as it can used by any ships built by India that is all that counts.

Designed for the slope? I am afraid I don't understand. Could you explain please?


Regds, Clay

[John]

Doesn't N-LCA require Kaveri or F-414 to compensate for its heavier weight compared LCA? It might be able to land and takeoff but won't be able to carry much munitions.

[khukri]

I'm sure the DDM author mixed up the Gorshkov and the Viraat. if the MiG-29 can land on the Gorshkov, the N-LCA should be able to do so as well. length of the runway for landing is more than adequate for a small sized N-LCA to land with arrested recovery.

It does sound fishy. However, the AC needs to be designed for the slope (during takeoff). That could be the issue, which I find hard to believe.

However, the LCA predates the Vicky and it should not be a topic of interest. As long as it can used by any ships built by India that is all that counts.

Designed for the slope? I am afraid I don't understand. Could you explain please?


Regds, Clay

The angled ski-slope ramp that Vikramaditya has

[clay]

I'm sure the DDM author mixed up the Gorshkov and the Viraat. if the MiG-29 can land on the Gorshkov, the N-LCA should be able to do so as well. length of the runway for landing is more than adequate for a small sized N-LCA to land with arrested recovery.

It does sound fishy. However, the AC needs to be designed for the slope (during takeoff). That could be the issue, which I find hard to believe.

However, the LCA predates the Vicky and it should not be a topic of interest. As long as it can used by any ships built by India that is all that counts.

Designed for the slope? I am afraid I don't understand. Could you explain please?


Regds, Clay

The angled ski-slope ramp that Vikramaditya has

I understand about the ski slope but I doubt an aircraft needs to be designed for it. And the Vikramaditya was intended to have an angled ski slope right from the beginning.

What I think the reporter was implying is that the Tejas with the GE 404 engine will not be able to take off from the the Vikramaditya with a useful combat load. Landing with a strengthened undercarriage and tail hook for an arrested recovery should not pose a problem.

I hope the GE 404 IN20 resolves the takeoff issue to some extent.

Regds, Clay

[sanjaychoudhry]

Mega order planned to replace Cheetah, Chetak

Armed Forces will get 400 new helicopters; 200 of them would be bought in ‘flyaway’ condition

The defence ministry is working on a plan to acquire 400 light helicopters for the Armed Forces to replace its ageing Cheetah and Chetak fleet, which the army and air force have been using for more than three decades.

India is expected to buy half of the helicopters from a yet-to-be decided foreign vendor and the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be asked to design and build the remaining.

-------------------

Under the new plan, about 200 helicopters would be bought in flyaway condition, or without any local integration, from vendors such as Bell Helicopter, British-Italian firm AgustaWestland, Russia’s Kamov and Eurocopter. India would not insist on local production under licence as that would be time-consuming.

HAL, meanwhile, has six years to design and build a home-grown light observation helicopter in the 2.5-3 tonne class, and help replenish the remaining fleet of Cheetah helicopters, said people familiar with the development.

Link

So the original plan of acquiring about 380 helicopters has been shelved. Now only 200 will be bought from the foriegn vendor, while the remaining 200 will be designed from scratch by HAL and manufactured here. So there seems to be some hope yet for the light observation helicopter that HAL was designing.

[sanjaychoudhry]

BAE joins IAF blame game on Hawk spares

[ramana]

X-posted...
Looking at the location of Chusul and Fukche they look more like helipads or forward airfield than airbases. An airbase wont be located so close to border and has to have transportation infrastructure leading to it. Or are these the terminal bases for land operations?

[Rupak]

X-posted...
Looking at the location of Chusul and Fukche they look more like helipads or forward airfield than airbases. An airbase wont be located so close to border and has to have transportation infrastructure leading to it. Or are these the terminal bases for land operations?

That's quite correct. The airfield was the Chushul airstrip, for really it was a strip, made of PSP sheets. Fukche was a gravel strip and these were really meant to support air maintenance of forward deployed troops.

[ramana]

So whats the big deal about announcing these in the newspapers as new measures? Is it a new forward airfields strategy a la 1962? Need to ponder.

What about the three bases in Tezpur ityadi?

Ref:

On the other hand, the Defence Ministry is pushing for a Rs 20,000-crore package to upgrade defences in the Eastern sector of the LAC. This involves setting up two mountain divisions, about 30,000 soldiers, dedicated for Arunachal Pradesh, a fleet of 40 medium lift choppers to service these troops and three Sukhoi bases — Tezpur, Hashimara and Panagarh — are being prepared.

The plan, sources said, is in the final stages of obtaining requisite financial clearances so that it can be brought before the Cabinet Committee on Security for approval. This will be tied up with the plan announced by the Prime Minister during his visit to Arunachal Pradesh to reactivate unused airfields.

[Rahul M]

is panagarh really being converted to a sukhoi base ??
it has an air strip but no active squadrons operating out of it as of now, AFAIK.

[Rupak]

is panagarh really being converted to a sukhoi base ??
it has an air strip but no active squadrons operating out of it as of now, AFAIK.

Yes, I find this intriguing too. But it has two things going for it. It's literally across the street from a major broad gauge line and, more importantly, there is plenty of room for expansion. Furthermore, if KKD is going to become THE main base for international exercises, then it makes sense to move some of the operation flying to other locations.

[andy B]

Hey Guys,

If IAF decides to go in for the Tiger, is there any possibility that we can use the top rotor mounter flir sight on the dhruv to turn in to a OH 58 Kiowa warrior clone.

Or even develop one through DRDO and use the ALH and LCH in recon and hunter killer roles....???

[ranganathan]

Oh-58 is too small and not in the same class as Dhruv. The Ka-52 would be the ideal machine to lead dhruvs.

[Rahul M]

HAL's light copter project for chetak/cheetah replacements should have machines in the Oh-58 mould. After all, many of IA's copters to be replaced will be for artillery observation roles. Just wait a few years, guys.

ranganathan, there is little chance of the ka-50/52 being inducted in IAF service.
impressive as it is on paper, the project is marred by poor reliability and weight issues.

[ranganathan]

you maybe right about ka-52 but tiger is same class as LCH and is just a waste of money. AH-64D is too costly which only leaves Mi-28N.

[andy B]

Thanks Ranga I didnt take into account the size difference (DOH)
Anyhow the KA-52 does appear to be a very capable attack chopper especially the Erdogan version that was being offered to Turkey. It would be be a great companion to a recce dhruv for a recce/hunter combo

On another note the the Ka52 does not look like it has the same amount of armour/protection as compared to the Ka50.

[Rahul M]

you maybe right about ka-52 but tiger is same class as LCH and is just a waste of money. AH-64D is too costly which only leaves Mi-28N.

I'm certainly not in favour of the tiger, if that is what you meant. (as if what I think matters !!)

anyway, mi-28n is what is looking to be the best horse for the course.

it is apachesque in its specs and whatever weakness it has in the sensors department can be rectified with desi/israeli help.

let's not forget the israelis have one of the most active chopper arms anywhere and their operational experience is second to only the americans.

[Himanshu]

Rupak/Rahul.. What is the importance of Dudkhundi Airbase 444 west of KKD.. I see it's left un-attended on Google Earth..

Panagarh would require a lot of beef up from the infrastructure POV..

[Rupak]

Hi Himanshu
Dudhkundi no longer belongs to the IAF. It was sold to the state government some years ago.


Here is my list of unused and abandoned airbases from Eastern India that I complied a while ago.

Chakulia, Jharkhand (N22 27 46 E086 42 12) � sold to National Airports Authority
Charra, Jharkhand (N23 22 00 E086 25.6) - abandoned
Dudhkundi, Bengal (N22 19 15 E087 06 37) � sold to state government
Piardoba, Bankura, Bengal (N23 02 10. E087 21 21) - abandoned
Gushkara, Bengal (N23 28 12 E087 48 29) - abandoned
Barrackpore, Bengal (N22 31 54 E088 21 30) � Forward Base
Andal/Ondal (N23 35 05 E087 13 31) � Ministry of Mines
Dergaon (unlocated) � Drop Zone/Helipad
Sukertaing, Assam (N27 33 9 E095 34 16) � sold to state government
Ledo, Assam (N27 18 2 E095 44 16) - abandoned
Nagaghuli, Assam (N27 32 11 E095 16 02) - abandoned
Misamari, Assam (N26 50 11 E092 44 44) � Forward base
Kanchrapara, Bengal (N22 55 28 E088 27 30) � Forward base
Madhaiganj, Bengal (N23 38 55 E087 21 53) - abandoned
Pandabeshwar, Bengal (N23 34 50 E087 30 37) - abandoned
Salua airfield (N22 36 33 E087 27 57) � THD 1955 station

[sanjaychoudhry]

HAL to design light helicopters; India’s chopper tender to be less

Major indigenisation of military aviation

HAL seeks more funds for chopper division

[Venkarl]

Please excuse my wild thought. what about having an underground air force base, more sophisticated than zeljava air base ?? I guess US,Russia and China already have such under ground air force bases.

I know...its like pulling a hill with thread(any telugus??)...

But on a serious note, IAF should have such a secret, fortified, underground air force base in 20 years down the line.