Indian Military Aviation

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vick » 13 Jun 2008 08:20

From DN
HAL To Produce Light Helicopters for India
By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 12 Jun 17:53 EDT (13:53 GMT)

NEW DELHI - India will reduce to 197 the number of helicopters it purchases from overseas markets and buy another 187 domestically.

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the body responsible for weapon purchases, cleared the acquisition of 384 light observation/utility helicopters in the first week of June. The DAC is headed by the defense minister, and its other members include top bureaucrats from the Defence Ministry, and the top brass of the Army, Air Force and Navy.

The DAC also decided that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) be awarded the contract for design and development of the remaining 187 copters.

Indian Defence Ministry sources said the Army and Air Force had wanted to purchase all 384 helicopters from overseas markets, but Defence Minister A.K. Antony favored the home production of some copters by HAL.

Both the Army and Air Force will be given an undecided share of the 197 copters purchased directly and the home-produced number of 187, Defence Ministry sources said.

The request for proposal (RfP) for the outright purchase of 197 copters, estimated to be about $700 million, is likely to be issued in the next month to defense majors from Europe, the United States and Russia.

In fact, the number of helos to be bought from overseas is the same as the inconclusive bid by Eurocopter, which had emerged as the front-runner, to supply the Army 197 helicopters. But following complaints from Bell Helicopters of the United States, the tender was canceled last year.

HAL will set up special facilities to manufacture light observation/utility helicopters, and the government will provide about $100 million. Details of how HAL will set up the facilities are not known, but Defence Ministry sources said HAL will collaborate with overseas contractors to develop the light helicopters.

A senior HAL official said it will take five to six years for the design, development and production of the copters to commence.

The two-pilot helicopter will be configured to operate at high altitudes and weigh about 3 tons. It will be powered by a single engine and have a range of up to 500 kilometers with a 500-kilogram payload.

In addition, HAL will produce 346 medium-lift helicopters in the 10- to 15-ton class. The first prototype will be brought out in six years. Development costs are put at $103.6 million with per-unit production costs of about $3 million. This project was also cleared by the DAC earlier this month.

HAL has already delivered 74 homemade Advanced Light Helicopters (ALHs) to the armed forces and received an order for 159 more early this year.

The Army and Air Force urgently need to replace aging Cheetah and Chetak helicopters that already have surpassed their requisite hours of flying. These are the only helicopters the Indian military has for operations in the high battle zones of Jammu and Kashmir state.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby srai » 13 Jun 2008 09:08

...
In addition, HAL will produce 346 medium-lift helicopters in the 10- to 15-ton class. The first prototype will be brought out in six years. Development costs are put at $103.6 million with per-unit production costs of about $3 million. This project was also cleared by the DAC earlier this month.
...


Only $3 million per chopper ... doesn't sound realistic :roll:

ALH which is a light-medium helo itself costs something like $6-7 million per unit; so how is HAL to produce a heavier medium-lift helos for half that price???

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 13 Jun 2008 09:32

I think the endurance issue has been stated by IN lot of times officially by senior officers in interview. If IN is interested in 14 ton Helo then Dhruv is too light. The role of Dhruv & Cheetah/Chetak etc will IMHO be done by new rotory UAV

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Re: Re:

Postby Luxtor » 13 Jun 2008 09:51

gogna wrote:
soutikghosh wrote:Proper good quality photo of Indian PHALCON

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ilyushin ... 1360837/L/


here is another one
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6271128



Is that a rotating radome? If it is then we're not getting the AESA based AWACS? I thought the Israeli Phalcon AWACS was strictly an AESA based system which is much better than the mechanically scanning radome type. Hmmm, this doesn't sound right. Are we settling for 2nd best or are we getting jipped here? Even the Chileans have the Israeli built Phalcon with AESA AWACS based on the Boeing 707 which is named the Condor. What's going on? :?: :-?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 13 Jun 2008 09:52

I think the Helo cost should be around US$ 13 million + US$ 100 million for R&D while my guess another US$ 100-200 million for escalation and setting up production plant

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Re: Re:

Postby vivek_ahuja » 13 Jun 2008 10:12

Luxtor wrote:
gogna wrote:
soutikghosh wrote:Proper good quality photo of Indian PHALCON

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ilyushin ... 1360837/L/


here is another one
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6271128



Is that a rotating radome? If it is then we're not getting the AESA based AWACS? I thought the Israeli Phalcon AWACS was strictly an AESA based system which is much better than the mechanically scanning radome type. Hmmm, this doesn't sound right. Are we settling for 2nd best or are we getting jipped here? Even the Chileans have the Israeli built Phalcon with AESA AWACS based on the Boeing 707 which is named the Condor. What's going on? :?: :-?


Luxtor,

Check the AEW thread for details on this.

The Phalcon AWACS does not have a rotating radome. What you are seeing is a different layout of the AESA radar. If you see properly, you can see one edge of the triangle painted underneath the radome showing the layout of the radar panels inside.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby srai » 13 Jun 2008 10:21

sunilUpa wrote:Navy plans to ditch Dhruv helicopters

The Indian Navy has virtually written off the naval variant of the advanced light helicopter (ALH), Dhruv, saying it has failed to meet basic operational requirements. The navy, which operates a fleet of six ALHs, has decided against placing further orders with the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

A senior navy official told HT, “The ALH has a long way to go before the programme matures sufficiently for it to undertake basic naval roles such as search and rescue (SAR) and communication duties.” He said the helicopter’s ASW (anti-submarine warfare) version developed by HAL still falls short of naval expectations.

Navy officials said that the ALH lacks the desired endurance for mission requirements. The navy is also not satisfied with the chopper’s rotor blade folding mechanism for storage on warships and its payload capacity. The navy has launched a global hunt for new ASW helicopters to replace its ageing fleet of Sea King helicopters.

However, HAL remains buoyant about domestic helicopter sale prospects with the defence ministry entrusting it with the task of developing light utility helicopters for the army and the air force. The ministry has allocated Rs 435 crore for this. The defence public sector undertaking is focusing aggressively on the helicopter business and plans to set up a new helicopter division in Bangalore.


...


IMO, even if the Naval ALH is not inducted into the IN, HAL and DRDO should still complete the R&D of the Naval variant to get the know-how of how to integrate the radar, weapons, and avionics. The know how needs to be fully developed in this area for the future especially with the indigenous medium-lift helo planned. It will be far easier and quicker to use that as a baseline than start all from scratch. Hope they are not short-sighted and don't just stop all the current R&D effort (as India has done in the past) in this area ... only to pay for it (i.e. have to start from scratch) years later.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 13 Jun 2008 10:51

Link
First pics of India's IL-76 Phalcon AWACS. Seen here performing it's first flight in israel. Click on image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Re:

Postby Luxtor » 13 Jun 2008 11:05

Is that a rotating radome? If it is then we're not getting the AESA based AWACS? I thought the Israeli Phalcon AWACS was strictly an AESA based system which is much better than the mechanically scanning radome type. Hmmm, this doesn't sound right. Are we settling for 2nd best or are we getting jipped here? Even the Chileans have the Israeli built Phalcon with AESA AWACS based on the Boeing 707 which is named the Condor. What's going on? :?: :-?

Luxtor,

Check the AEW thread for details on this.

The Phalcon AWACS does not have a rotating radome. What you are seeing is a different layout of the AESA radar. If you see properly, you can see one edge of the triangle painted underneath the radome showing the layout of the radar panels inside.


Oh ok, so it is an AESA radar in a dome. I'm sorry, I jumped the gun. Apologies. :oops: Thanks for the explanation Vivek.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Abhisham » 13 Jun 2008 12:28

Only $3 million per chopper ... doesn't sound realistic

ALH which is a light-medium helo itself costs something like $6-7 million per unit; so how is HAL to produce a heavier medium-lift helos for half that price???


Well the whole Light helicopter deal for 197 helicopter deal was 600 million. Also depends on the level of avonics you want to integrate, a simple dial guage type layout would be lot cheaper than a glass cockpit version. Same is the case with Dhruvs!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 13 Jun 2008 12:29

srai wrote:IMO, even if the Naval ALH is not inducted into the IN, HAL and DRDO should still complete the R&D of the Naval variant to get the know-how of how to integrate the radar, weapons, and avionics. The know how needs to be fully developed in this area for the future especially with the indigenous medium-lift helo planned. It will be far easier and quicker to use that as a baseline than start all from scratch. Hope they are not short-sighted and don't just stop all the current R&D effort (as India has done in the past) in this area ... only to pay for it (i.e. have to start from scratch) years later.


Is this for real ??
I mean, has NAVY really abandoned the project?
Or is this yet another newspaper trying to get 10 minutes of glory for the day.
I just hope its untrue..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Abhisham » 13 Jun 2008 12:48

Cybaru wrote:Is this for real ??
I mean, has NAVY really abandoned the project?
Or is this yet another newspaper trying to get 10 minutes of glory for the day.
I just hope its untrue..


Article is mainly talking about the anti-submarine warfare version which has limited endurance due to added nose mounted radar / FLIR / dunking sonar etc. for which a medium helo is required. Reporter seems to have a put a spin on that. ALH is a better alternative to the aeging Chetak/Cheetah. But then again there were issues with cockpit vibration which is being or already sorted?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Drevin » 13 Jun 2008 13:44

The frame was so inadequate from the beginning. A 15-20 ton helo would do the job perfectly especially when hunting for submarines over extended ranges. All in all a good move. The extra space would also be good for improving crew comfort apart from the advantage of endurance etc.

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Re: Re:

Postby jerry » 13 Jun 2008 14:37

Luxtor wrote:
Is that a rotating radome? If it is then we're not getting the AESA based AWACS? I thought the Israeli Phalcon AWACS was strictly an AESA based system which is much better than the mechanically scanning radome type. Hmmm, this doesn't sound right. Are we settling for 2nd best or are we getting jipped here? Even the Chileans have the Israeli built Phalcon with AESA AWACS based on the Boeing 707 which is named the Condor. What's going on? :?: :-?

Luxtor,

Check the AEW thread for details on this.

The Phalcon AWACS does not have a rotating radome. What you are seeing is a different layout of the AESA radar. If you see properly, you can see one edge of the triangle painted underneath the radome showing the layout of the radar panels inside.


Oh ok, so it is an AESA radar in a dome. I'm sorry, I jumped the gun. Apologies. :oops: Thanks for the explanation Vivek.


can someone reply why the radar is mounted on a radadome when in the IAI site it is shown mounted in the nosecone which gives a better coverage too

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jun 2008 14:49

can someone reply why the radar is mounted on a radadome when in the IAI site it is shown mounted in the nosecone which gives a better coverage too


:roll: :roll:
really ? tell me about it !

current config gives 360 deg coverage. what would be the figure for a nose mounted :!: one ?
and what would be the size of a rad you can fit in a nose ?

lurk around and use your common sense before you post again.

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Re: Re:

Postby PaulJI » 13 Jun 2008 14:50

jerry wrote:can someone reply why the radar is mounted on a radadome when in the IAI site it is shown mounted in the nosecone which gives a better coverage too


I believe you are confusing different implementations of Phalcon. Phalcon is a radar, which can be mounted on an airframe in various ways. It has been sold to Chile on a Boeing 707, with one array nose mounted & one on each side of the fuselage. A smaller version is mounted similarly on the G550. India is buying a version with three arrays mounted in a triangle inside a circular radome. The radome is to protect the arrays, & for aerodynamics. It gives the best coverage, 360 degrees (IIRC there's a coverage gap astern in the other mounting), but needs a bigger aircraft than than the nose+side mountings.

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Re: Re:

Postby jerry » 13 Jun 2008 15:02

Thanks PaulJI appreciate that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby gogna » 13 Jun 2008 17:52

Image
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 13 Jun 2008 20:50

Abhisham wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Is this for real ??
I mean, has NAVY really abandoned the project?
Or is this yet another newspaper trying to get 10 minutes of glory for the day.
I just hope its untrue..


Article is mainly talking about the anti-submarine warfare version which has limited endurance due to added nose mounted radar / FLIR / dunking sonar etc. for which a medium helo is required. Reporter seems to have a put a spin on that. ALH is a better alternative to the aeging Chetak/Cheetah. But then again there were issues with cockpit vibration which is being or already sorted?


if the Chetaks were being used for any roles at all, then the Dhruvs are a significant improvement over that..if you've ever flown in a Chetak, you'd know what vibrations are all about. comparing that to reports of the flight comfort in the Dhruv leaves no doubt that its a far superior platform.

that said, for a specialised anti-sub helicopter, vibrations would probably interfere with the avionics that are specialised for tracking subs. and if its the IN which is giving up on the Dhruv, then it must be a serious problem.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 13 Jun 2008 21:11

Swiss firm Ruag, HAL in JV for production of next generation Do-228 aircraft

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/aero_mfg/20080612_aircraft.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ranganathan » 13 Jun 2008 21:15

Edited
Last edited by Jagan on 14 Jun 2008 07:06, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Please watch your language on the forum

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby clay » 13 Jun 2008 23:39

Image
Seems like AWACS will be here come Septermber.....Flight testing by IAF underway 8)

The Indian Air Force has begun tests flights of the first of three Ilyushin Il-76 transport aircraft being modified as airborne early warning system in Israel.


IAF will get delivery of first AWACS in September this year.


The other two Phalcon AEW Il-76s will start flying soon and the Air Force is likely to purchase three more, taking the number to six.


IAF will have six such platforms with delivery expected to be completed between 2009-2012.


Are they going to speed up delivery of the next three AWACS still to be ordered to complete all deliveries by 2012?

Anyway, this is good news for the IAF.

Regds, Clay

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 14 Jun 2008 01:01

Abhisham wrote:Article is mainly talking about the anti-submarine warfare version which has limited endurance due to added nose mounted radar / FLIR / dunking sonar etc. for which a medium helo is required. Reporter seems to have a put a spin on that. ALH is a better alternative to the aeging Chetak/Cheetah. But then again there were issues with cockpit vibration which is being or already sorted?


Yeah, for ASW they will need something else. It just doesn't have the range or the endurance.
But as long as Navy doesn't dump this platform, its all good. Excellent for CG activities though.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Naidu » 14 Jun 2008 01:03

Kartik wrote:if the Chetaks were being used for any roles at all, then the Dhruvs are a significant improvement over that..if you've ever flown in a Chetak, you'd know what vibrations are all about. comparing that to reports of the flight comfort in the Dhruv leaves no doubt that its a far superior platform.

that said, for a specialised anti-sub helicopter, vibrations would probably interfere with the avionics that are specialised for tracking subs. and if its the IN which is giving up on the Dhruv, then it must be a serious problem.


How can they expect the Dhruv to replace the Sea King in ASW roles? Totally different size/class of aircraft. Is that the DDM's incorrect conclusion, or was the IN really try to replace both the Chetaks and Sea Kings with Dhruvs? It will neither fit into the Chetak's storage pen nor will it have the Sea King's payload and endurance.

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Re: Re:

Postby PaulJI » 14 Jun 2008 01:31

jerry wrote:Thanks PaulJI appreciate that.


BTW, I made a mistake. The Boeing 707 based Phalcon looks as if it has a gap in coverage due to no rearward-looking radar, but the G550 Phalcon has a rear array, & therefore all-round coverage. Sorry about that.

G550 AEW pictures - http://www.defense-update.com/covers/co ... e/caew.jpg
http://www.iai.co.il/pict/G5M.jpg

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 15 Jun 2008 00:10

X Posting..

'Fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly in March next'
Bangalore (PTI): The country's 'ambitious' fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly during March next, M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister, said on Saturday.

Efforts were on to identify a Russian company to provide weapons and electronic warfare systems, Natarajan, who is also the Secretary, Defence Research and Development Organisation, said while participating in the inauguration of the Defence Avionics Research Establishment's new campus here


Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said. "We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said.


AoA onlee..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Luxtor » 15 Jun 2008 03:04

'Fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly in March next' :roll:

I think DRDO suffers from ADS (Attention Deficit Syndrome). They have plenty on their plates at this time of current projects such as LCA, scores of missiles, ALH, NALH, LCH, Arjun, etc. and none of these systems are fully operational after decades of work. And now they're already jumping to MCA and even that within a year from concept to flying prototype? Are these people for real? I think the Defence Minister Antony should issue a standing order to DRDO: No more new projects until you complete what's already on your plate. All resources, financial and human, should be concentrated on the current projects in developement. And no more public speeches or pronouncements. Do more and talk less. This is becoming too painful to even laugh. :evil:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 15 Jun 2008 03:09

^^^Or may be it is you who has a comprehension problem! The 5th Gen they are talking about is PAK-FA (or whatever it is called).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Luxtor » 15 Jun 2008 03:41

The article makes no mention of PAK-FA explicitly. It's written in such a way that it makes it sound like they're talikng about MCA.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 15 Jun 2008 07:42

I would think a multi dimensional multiple arrays would be the future for awacs. nose will house the AESA FCR, left and right side lobed conformal long ranged AESA operating at all bandwidth.. [x,c,l,p...]. I am thinking even rudder could house a few arrays.. The only thing is we need a super computer on board to process all these array signal processors.

flying chappati days are getting over.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2008 08:18

SaiK-ji,

It is called a conformal AESA, and it is on its way ......... in the US of course. One of the selling points of the F-18 perhaps, but certainly on most UAVs.

There is one school of thought that expects elements on various parts of the AC to perform dedicated jobs, including communication and intel!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 15 Jun 2008 08:34

how about one aesa under the belly, to catch those low flying a/cs? i remember it was the most toughest logic to decipher targets very low.. many a2g and sar stuffs, are the complex issues with LCA MMR.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2008 08:44

Sir, conformal AESA is what it all is. Once they beat the issue of "shape", which was the problem about two years ago (I had posted an article from AWST on the topic I recall), then there are no issues about where to install the damn thing. Leading edge of wings, sides, belly, how does it matter ..... it will conform to practically any shape. Wired to one or more computers it should then become an issue of writing code.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2008 08:48

BTW, if I am not clear, conformal AESA is actually something like the blister packaging, with each blister representing an element. Wrap that "plastic" around anything of pretty much any shape. The material is different.

It is NOT a flat radar that is fitted to a shape.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 15 Jun 2008 09:11

In my understanding.. that I was referring was largely a distribution of the arrays, basically antenna.. Dileep (our radar guru) was of the opinion that might be difficult with current technology, but he said it was quite possible in the near future. I shall leave the tech to him... something about losing the signals..etc.

My point was a little louder in the sense considering these RADAR arrays at disjoint locale, and each being a node on a super computing network on board, with high end fiber optic bus... that way, we can make each of these as LRUs, and still be on the net.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2008 19:57

I have not had the time to look for the article I had posted, but here is another one form AWST, Feb 2008:

U.S. Navy Plans EPX Intel-Gathering Aircraft

Two advanced technologies under consideration for EPX are the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar (with greater range and target discrimination than manually scanned radars) and widespread use of conformal antennas attached to the aircraft’s exterior.

“Radar is going to be a must,” Hayden says. “Any product, sensor or system that can perform multiple jobs [like AESA arrays for sensing, electronic attack and wideband communications] will be attractive.

....................

We’ll probably end up putting an aperture on just about every square inch of the airplane that we can because, with the [new Navy] requirements, it will take some head-scratching to figure out how to accommodate them all.”

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 18 Jun 2008 14:51

NAL, Pratt & Whitney in talks to co-develop aircraft engine for indigenous RTA-70 programme news
16 June 2008
Bangalore: India's leading aerospace design establishment, the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), is in talks with leading engine makers, Pratt and Whitney of Canada, for the joint development of an India-specific engine for its proposed 90-seater regional transport aircraft, or RTA 70. The NAL-designed RTA-70 is meant to ply short-haul routes and compete with planes of French-Italian aircraft maker Avions de Transport Régional (ATR), a leading exporter of turbo-prop aircraft to the Indian sub-continent.

NAL, a constituent lab of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), wants a fuel-efficient turboprop engine from Pratt and Whitney to power the RTA-70.

''The technical discussions are on. They already have (similar type of) engines flying in other planes,'' said Kota Harinarayana, ex-chief designer of India's prestigious Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, and currently the Raja Ramanna fellow at NAL. Harinarayana is spearheading the RTA-70 project.

Pratt and Whitney engines also power the turboprop family of 50-74 seater planes of ATR, the equal joint venture between Alenia Aeronautica and European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co.

India's aerospace industry has had limited success in developing engines. Its only success, to date, has been the PTAE-7 small engine for Lakshya, the pilotless target aircraft, built by aerospace giant Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The indigenously developed Kaveri engine for the LCA Tejas fighter, has already been under development for at least two decades. Off and on, there have been reports about the Gas Turbine and Research Establishment, the agency developing the engine, looking for foreign partners to build the power plant.

According to Harinarayana, NAL wants to sign a partner for the engine programme from the start in order to ensure long-term commitment and costs. He also said that NAL will build a digital concept of the RTA 70 in around two years and a flying prototype in four years.

NAL's 14-seat Saras plane, currently under development, is powered by Pratt and Whitney engines. Saras, named after the Indian crane, is a milestone in that it will be the first indigenously designed commercial civilian aircraft.

NAL is hoping for formal DGCA clearance for the Saras by 2009.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakkaji » 18 Jun 2008 20:34




From the above link:

Also, according to some reports, BAE Systems has been mounting a highly unsavoury unofficial campaign by painting the IAF as a bunch of incompetent chaps who don't know how to handle new aircraft, or how frequently to use them.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Katare » 19 Jun 2008 03:50

gogna wrote:
Image
Image


Indian attack chopper Deal - the Six contenders

Did the modeler made a mistake here, just by looking at the picture it seems, to my inexpert eyes, that there are hardly any ammo on it for its large size. The info board doesn't show any payload data either.


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