Indian Military Aviation

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ranganathan
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ranganathan » 27 Jun 2008 22:00

After the LCA , HAL will be busy with LOH, Med Heli, MCA, MRCA and MRTA

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dhanush » 27 Jun 2008 23:26

Kartik wrote:
HAL was'nt able to convince IAF that this was the way to go..so, for all practical purposes, the project has been canned. in a way, its good for the LCA..it took a hit when the IJT was developed simultaneously with it. many designers were pulled along to develop the IJT and there was a little lack of resources on the LCA program.

anyway, the engine that would've flown it would've been the Al-55I, and it would've been twin engined, not Snecma's Larzac engine since it was not producing adequate thrust for the IJT. (Larzac is the engine name, so its not Larzac that was offering the engine).


Kartik, thanks for the enlightenment.

Now, BAE knows that we dont have any other option but to purchase the HAWKs. Bad situation to be in!

Lets hope for some miracles, like in the case of HAL LOH.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ranganathan » 28 Jun 2008 00:04

Why is the Dhruvs ceiling quoted as 4500m?
http://www.hal-india.com/helicopter/products.asp#alh

I was under the impression it is 6500m with the shakti engine.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 28 Jun 2008 00:04

The AJT as a derivitive of the IJT MAY be canned. But an AJT derived from the LCA still lives. And, IF I may, with a proper engine to power a LCA "II", I would think it is a done deal. With the exception of a dual engine, a LCA AJT, would be a good entry level AC. One that has crossed the minds of HAL/IAF.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 28 Jun 2008 15:13

NRao wrote:The AJT as a derivitive of the IJT MAY be canned. But an AJT derived from the LCA still lives. And, IF I may, with a proper engine to power a LCA "II", I would think it is a done deal. With the exception of a dual engine, a LCA AJT, would be a good entry level AC. One that has crossed the minds of HAL/IAF.

NRao, if that materialises, it will be much more than an AJT.

I take it you are talking about the Lead in Fighter Trainer (LIFT). if IAF does go for the tejas in LIFT role, we would see the mig-21s at MOFTU being replaced by Tejas and may be even the mig-21s from TACDE will go the same way.
All in all we are talking of about 100 additional full fledged fighters !
such an order may also mean that it becomes economical for HAL to expand annual capacity.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby karan_mc » 28 Jun 2008 16:56

in the first pictures of ijt mfd ,you can see Tejas parked near it with drop tanks ,first time the color of the drop tank is different then the usual white

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 28 Jun 2008 18:44

I take it you are talking about the Lead in Fighter Trainer (LIFT)


I was not, but you are right, that is IIRC the upgraded name for the AJT.

Whatever, I feel that the Indian industry is going through a rough phase - where if given the right components they can deliver, but have to "wait" for the right components to be built and tested.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nirmal » 28 Jun 2008 19:52

The New IJT modelled around LCA is CAT Combat Advanced Trainer being compatible and superior to Hawk Jet Trainers
I don't believe it is LIFT but rather CAT. LIFT was the upgraded AJT which was supposedly canned.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rakall » 28 Jun 2008 20:00

Nirmal wrote:
The New IJT modelled around LCA is CAT Combat Advanced Trainer being compatible and superior to Hawk Jet Trainers
I don't believe it is LIFT but rather CAT. LIFT was the upgraded AJT which was supposedly canned.



HAL had an AJT design which they called "CAT".
ADA had ideas for its own AJT version (based on LCA) and they called it "LIFT" (it was never clear though, how different it would be from LCA trainer.. )

Dont know how far ADA had gone on LIFT effort; they would have been pretty much tied-up with LCA work.. But. HAL had done lot of inhouse preliminary design in ARDC on the CAT - which was to be a twin-engined (AL-55I) plane with better performance than Hawk etc. They had put the preliminary proposal to IAF to get ASR. But when the Hawk deal went through - IAF/MOD just decided to order more Hawks, rather than develop an indigenous AJT with an eye on the future.
You see.. some people never learn from their past mistakes..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 30 Jun 2008 03:28

Aeronautics commission likely to take off soon

www.business-standard.com/common/news_a ... =0&chkFlg=

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Gerard » 01 Jul 2008 03:19


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Gerard » 01 Jul 2008 03:34



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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 01 Jul 2008 15:22


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 01 Jul 2008 15:59

I have seen a photo of Mr Birajdar taken from his launch a/c over the matanchery
channel in Kochi. his suit has a cloth flap between the legs and hands making
it look like a large bat.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 04 Jul 2008 01:09

DRDO to use Embraer Platform for early Warning Systems

In a path breaking development, India and Brazil have entered into a deal to jointly develop an Early Warning System for the Indian Air Force. The agreement was signed here today by Dr. S Christopher, Director, Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), DRDO, and Mr. Luis Carlos Aguiar, Executive Vice President (Defence and Govt. Market), M/s Embraer in the presence of Mr. Marco Brandao, Brazilian Ambassador and Shri M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister.

The Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System is being developed by the Bangalore based CABS for the Indian Air Force. Under the deal, Brazil's Embraer aircraft manufacturer will modify its regional jet aircraft, EMB-145 to carry the Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU), developed by the DRDO, on the aircraft's fuselage. Three modified EMB-145 aircraft will be developed under this agreement; the first one to be delivered in three years.

The various sub-systems of the AEW&C Mission system will be integrated into the 'modified green' aircraft by DRDO and the full-fledged EMB-145 based AEW&C will be flight tested for Mission system in India by DRDO along with IAF from 2012. The AEW&C system comprises many sub-systems like Radar and communication links that are being designed and developed by DRDO.

A few EMB-145 based AEW&C/AWACS versions are already in operation with Air Forces of Brazil, Mexico and Greece.


http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=40044

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 04 Jul 2008 01:12

Indian AEW&C system to become operational by 2011

India's capability to closely monitor happenings far from the country's borders will receive a boost with the indigenous airborne early warning and control systems (AEW&Cs) getting operationalised by 2011.

The indigenous AEW&C system being developed by Centre for Air Borne Systems, Bangalore, would be mounted on the Brazilian Embraer-145 jets, an official announcement said here on Thursday. This will give India capability to monitor missile launches, troop movements and other security threats far outside its territorial borders.

The operationalisation of the indigenous AEW&C System received a boost with the DRDO signing a $210 million deal with the Brazilian aviation company Embraer to mount the system on its jets. Under the deal signed here on Thursday, three Embraer-145 jets would be modified to carry the Indian Active Array Antennae mounted on top of the aircraft's fuselage.

"The first of these Embraer based AEW&C systems would be inducted in the Indian Air Force (IAF) by 2011," a Defence spokesman said here. The announcement of the smaller Indian AEW&C System becoming operational comes as IAF is all set to receive the first of its three much larger 'Phalcon' Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems aircraft from Israel in August next year.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 193751.cms


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 05 Jul 2008 03:44

From the above link:

Bribery and scandal, which would have played with the lives of troops in Siachen, involving a middleman who was a relative of a serving top-level Army official and was trying to pass off a civilian helicopter as a military version, finally led to the scrapping of the $ 600 million Eurocopter deal.

The deal to purchase 197 helicopters to provide logistical support to the Army in Siachen was signed in February 2007 with European Aeronautics Defense and Space Company.

Authoritative sources revealed to The Tribune that the file was routed thrice to defence minister A.K. Antony, who finally said no after the ministry of defence in an in-house inquiry confirmed shocking findings.

Even French President Nicolas Sarkozy lobbied hard with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Congress president Sonia Gandhi to secure the whopping contract.

Consider these facts revealed by an in-depth Tribune investigation:

(1) Trial reports accessed by The Tribune made available to the MoD and the watchdog Comptroller and Auditor-General (CA&G) reveal that a civilian model of the light reconnaissance helicopter was sought to be passed off as the military one.

(2) The acquisition wing of the Army tried to say that the “engine was broadly similar’’ but the CA&G did not buy the story.

(3) During field trials the helicopter meant to be the lifeline for the troops in Siachen failed comprehensively and yet the Army top brass tried desperately to push for its purchase.

(4) The most shocking allegation of a blood relation of a top-level Army official, actively involved in evaluating and giving the final favourable assessment to the deal, working as a middleman for Eurocopter was found to be correct.

In order to avoid the huge public embarrassment and furore that would have ensured if the facts had been made public, the MoD quietly cancelled the deal despite pressure from the Army. Documents shown to The Tribune which formed part of the file, which finally led to the cancellation of the deal, established that the relative of a top Army officer was based in Europe and had a business relationship with Eurocopter.

It may be recalled that after the Bofors scandal the government had banned middlemen in defence deals.

Says a top MoD official: “The level of corruption is shocking. While relatives would have made millions, besieged troops in Siachen would have borne the brunt. This was a textbook scandal worse than the coffin scandal. And, but for the determination of some honest officials and the CA&G the troops would have paid the price.’’

Despite repeated attempts by The Tribune the Army refused to comment.


So much for the Army's reputation and credibility for fairness. Wonder what they will say in their defense...
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 05 Jul 2008 04:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby clay » 05 Jul 2008 19:38

French order Damocles pod for the Mirage-2000D

The brochure on the Thales website mentions the Damocles Pod is in service on the SU-30/Mirage 2005. (download pdf here)

I would appreciate is some guru/s clarify if the Damocles Targetting Pod is in use in the IAF? I know we are using the Litening Pod from Rafael. I checked on the BR SU30 page but did not find any mention of the Damocles.

Also, how do the two compare?

Many thanks for your replies.

added later : The image of the SU30 underwing weapons area appears to be badly edited in the brochure.


Regds, Clay

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 05 Jul 2008 20:17

Bribery and scandal, which would have played with the lives of troops in Siachen, involving a middleman who was a relative of a serving top-level Army official and was trying to pass off a civilian helicopter as a military version, finally led to the scrapping of the $ 600 million Eurocopter deal.


In China, this corrupt army officer would have been disgraced publicly and executed. <EDITED> . No wonder, their "ijjat" is going down every year. It seems men of straw have taken over the institution once headed by giants such as Sam Manekshaw.
Last edited by sanjaychoudhry on 05 Jul 2008 20:52, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby karan_mc » 05 Jul 2008 20:26

clay i think Malaysian flankers have them since they donot use Israeli pods or avionics which was substituted by french systems

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Baljeet » 05 Jul 2008 20:33

vivek_ahuja wrote:So much for the Army's reputation and credibility for fairness. Wonder what they will say in their defense...
Last edited by Jagan on 05 Jul 2008 20:47, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Post Edited - For any allegations - links / sources need to be posted. Like Vivek did.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 05 Jul 2008 20:54

Jagan jee, proofs are required if allegations are against named individuals. You cannot ask for proof for statements such as top army brass is trying to scuttle the Arjun or there is a lot of corruption in the government or that we live in terrible times or most politicans of India have nexus with business houses to benefit them.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jagan » 05 Jul 2008 20:56

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
Bribery and scandal, which would have played with the lives of troops in Siachen, involving a middleman who was a relative of a serving top-level Army official and was trying to pass off a civilian helicopter as a military version, finally led to the scrapping of the $ 600 million Eurocopter deal.


In China, this corrupt army officer would have been disgraced publicly and executed. <EDITED> . No wonder, their "ijjat" is going down every year. It seems men of straw have taken over the institution once headed by giants such as Sam Manekshaw.

Jagan jee, proofs are required if allegation is against named individuals. You cannot ask for proof for statements such as top army brass is trying to scuttle the Arjun or there is a lot of corruption in the government or that we live in terrible times or most politicans of India are corrupt.


Sanjay

Sorry, standards are tightening up.

Specifics are needed. If some specific general is bending the rules or someone is corrupt, I am sure sources are there. I remember reading an article from ajai shukla (or was it FI) that was very specific as to who exactly was creating the hurdles in arjun acceptance and causing these delays. Those links would help but at the same time restrict all allegations to those people named or identified and lets not paint everyone with the same broad brush

Supporting Links like those go a long way rather than blanket accusations against the "whole of top brass" etc

-Jagan

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 05 Jul 2008 21:30

I met a person from the armed fores who has something to do with choppers. Army is generally happy with ALH - although maintenance and spares issues still need some sorting.

The Eurocopter, now cancelled had a smaller payload than our existing Cheetahs. I was unable to find out why it was chosen. But there seems to be some news about that on this page :|

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby clay » 05 Jul 2008 22:53

karan_mc wrote:clay i think Malaysian flankers have them since they donot use Israeli pods or avionics which was substituted by french systems


I believe you are correct. Rkhanna confirmed the same in the SU30 thread. Thank you.


Regds, Clay

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 05 Jul 2008 23:00

shiv wrote:I met a person from the armed fores who has something to do with choppers. Army is generally happy with ALH - although maintenance and spares issues still need some sorting.

The Eurocopter, now cancelled had a smaller payload than our existing Cheetahs. I was unable to find out why it was chosen. But there seems to be some news about that on this page :|


I believe there was a news report posted here saying the same (at high altitude), same was the case with Bell too. Dhruv on the otherhand has almost double the payload at the same altitude as that of Cheetah.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 05 Jul 2008 23:58

Army's new flying machine for high altitudes

India's indigenously built flying machine, Dhruv, recently cleared for high altitude flying in Kashmir, is making Army's counter-insurgency operations easier.

Dhruv is an Indian helicopter, made for India's towering mountains. At present, it is making sorties at about 14000 feet in Tanghdar.

It has even flown to a record height of above 27000 feet, where no other helicopter has gone.

Earlier, the Army used the Cheeta helicopter, but Dhruv is a multi-purpose flying machine. It can ferry more men and machines to the snow covered peaks and can also double up as a flying ambulance.

''We had the Dhruv helicopter flying over head and giving surveillance of the area. It also was useful in transportation of material and personnel and with its capability to fly at high altitude and its all weather capability it definitely was a force multiplier,'' said Colonel Arjun Segan, Commanding Officer, 22 Rajasthan Rifles.

Having better load carrying capacity at high altitudes and in difficult terrain, this Army's new flying machine is becoming its main weapon against infiltration.


http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 34:00%20AM

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 06 Jul 2008 00:08

oops I meant to say even Bell had low payload at high altitude than Cheetah..damn that disappearing edit button is a @#$$^^

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby soutikghosh » 06 Jul 2008 00:16

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
DRDO to use Embraer Platform for early Warning Systems

In a path breaking development, India and Brazil have entered into a deal to jointly develop an Early Warning System for the Indian Air Force. The agreement was signed here today by Dr. S Christopher, Director, Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS), DRDO, and Mr. Luis Carlos Aguiar, Executive Vice President (Defence and Govt. Market), M/s Embraer in the presence of Mr. Marco Brandao, Brazilian Ambassador and Shri M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister.

The Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System is being developed by the Bangalore based CABS for the Indian Air Force. Under the deal, Brazil's Embraer aircraft manufacturer will modify its regional jet aircraft, EMB-145 to carry the Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU), developed by the DRDO, on the aircraft's fuselage. Three modified EMB-145 aircraft will be developed under this agreement; the first one to be delivered in three years.

The various sub-systems of the AEW&C Mission system will be integrated into the 'modified green' aircraft by DRDO and the full-fledged EMB-145 based AEW&C will be flight tested for Mission system in India by DRDO along with IAF from 2012. The AEW&C system comprises many sub-systems like Radar and communication links that are being designed and developed by DRDO.

A few EMB-145 based AEW&C/AWACS versions are already in operation with Air Forces of Brazil, Mexico and Greece.


http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=40044


G-550 or even a A-320 would have been a better platform.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 06 Jul 2008 00:53

G-550 or even a A-320 would have been a better platform.


If it was meant to be a conformal design then one could understand, but when the radar is mounted above the plane why would it matter?

The Israelis have a G-550 with something similar to what IAF is getting in the Phalcon. These (two) are side mounted (and a canoe?)

The 145 is OK for what DRDO is doing. They have been after it for some years now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 06 Jul 2008 01:01

if this project goes thru', the CABS will in all probability work for one
with improved capability requiring a/c with more endurance. there were
a few signals in this direction.
considering the commonality with the VIP fleet, EMB is the right choice
for this particular project. horses for courses.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2008 10:02

soutikghosh wrote:
G-550 or even a A-320 would have been a better platform.


With respect, may I ask what you know that the designers of the system do not know?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 06 Jul 2008 13:25

shiv wrote:
soutikghosh wrote:
G-550 or even a A-320 would have been a better platform.


With respect, may I ask what you know that the designers of the system do not know?


Nice one, Shiv. I was about to answer that one liner comment about this platform being better than that etc etc in detail before I looked at your question. I realized it was better that what I was busy typing. So now I will wait to hear what the above one liner yields. Who knows, we might even learn something new... :)

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rrao » 06 Jul 2008 15:46

shiv wrote:
soutikghosh wrote:
G-550 or even a A-320 would have been a better platform.


With respect, may I ask what you know that the designers of the system do not know?


Shiv saab! i am also of the same opinion of Ghosh ! why cant it be A320 kind of aircraft.Aircraft is a like a pet dog . Any foreign object externall mounted or internally mounted and whose weight is comparable with the aircraft weight,makes the faithful dog to go rabid! How much our half baked designers know? ppl will spit fire if i say this. What happened to the ASP programme! It ended up in a horrific crash in the turbulent sea weather conditions at arakkonam. The rotodome was mounted on a teeny weeny HS-748 AVRO, which is only designed to ferry ppl. Its like the pillion rider practising kung-fu on the back seat of a moving two wheeler.The rotodome had a huge aerodynamic impact on the AVRO and ultimately ended up in crash, killing a very key signal processing person Dr.NRU of LRDE. Along with him, the MMR signal processing programme too nose dived. i was told ,the crash was so intense, that ppl died in the accident got crushed like chappatis! They should have chosen IL-76 or any of the A300, Boeing series. There would have been no necessity of PHALCONS. i am too small to give you gyan on this, but couldnt help remembering Dr.NRU,with whome everybody had good rapport.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 06 Jul 2008 15:59

How much our half baked designers know?.... What happened to the ASP programme! It ended up in a horrific crash in the turbulent sea weather conditions at arakkonam. The rotodome was mounted on a teeny weeny HS-748 AVRO, which is only designed to ferry ppl....They should have chosen IL-76 or any of the A300, Boeing series


Do you realize the difference between 'knowing your requirements' and 'availability'? I suggest you read up more on why the HS-748 was chosen for the ASP before you comment. Pay more attention to the contemporary structural and manufacturing aspects of things when you do the above.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 06 Jul 2008 16:00

IAF’s first ever Participation in Exercise ‘Red Flag’ CONTINGENT READY TO DEPART ON 07 JUL 08
16:7 IST
The Indian Air Force would be participating in a multinational Air Exercise, ‘Ex - Red Flag 08’ at the invitation of United States Air Force (USAF), scheduled to be held at Nellis Air Force Base in the US from 09-23 Aug 08.

The IAF would be participating in the exercise with eight SU-30 MK-I aircraft, two IL-78 air to air refuellers and one IL-76 transport aircraft. The contingent would comprise 156 personnel below officers rank and 91 officers (inclusive of 10 members of ‘Garud’ IAF Special Force team). The contingent is being led by Gp Capt D Chaudhury and Exercise Coordinator would be Gp Capt Ajay Rathore.

Exercise Red Flag is a multinational air exercise that is held thrice a year at Nellis Air Force base, USA. The IAF would be participating in the Exercise alongside South Korean Air Force with F-15K and the French Air Force with their latest Rafale aircraft, apart from the USAF. Red Flag was originally conceived in 1975 by USAF with an advanced aerial combat training format - the purpose being to ensure that pilots are trained well enough to survive in air combat and win air battles. The exercise holds tremendous learning opportunity for all the participating Air Forces.

Prior to the main Exercise Red Flag 08 at Nellis, the IAF’s contingent would be working up at Mountain Home Air Base in Idaho, US from 17 Jul 08 till 07 Aug 08. At Mountain Home, the IAF contingent would be flying with the F-16s & F-15s of USAF. The purpose of the work up phase is to streamline the procedures and have a clear understanding of the new flying environment.

The IAF contingent with its aircraft are scheduled to depart from Pune on 07 Jul 08 and transit via Doha (Qatar), Chorlu (Turkey), Mont de Marsan (France) and Lages (Portugal) before reaching land main USA and Mountain Home airbase on 17 Jul 08.

MU/MKR

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby A Sharma » 06 Jul 2008 18:50



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