Indian Military Aviation

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vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Katare,

The LCH carries two Shakti powerplants (same as the ALH). These are supposed to provide enough power to lift 5500Kg at lower altitudes. So the LCH can carry a much heavier load than what you see in the pictures there when at sea level.

At higher altitudes, despite the name Shakti, the powerplant drops the power output even at full throttle beyond around 10,000 ft. Beyond 15,000 feet you are looking are serious degradation of lifting capacity. At that point the LCH assumes its name: Light Combat Helicopter

The loadout you see is what you can expect to see when it flies around in the Laddakh regions.

Cannot expect much from a dedicated gunship at those punishing altitudes.

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

Has the govt released money for this project yet ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Its gone way beyond that. I think the first flight is next year or sometime then.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by karan_mc »

Dhoni races IAF fighter jet on his mobike

BY : TNN

Skipper Mahendra Singh Dhoni entertained Indian Air Force officers and jawans by racing an IAF fighter plane — Jaguar — on his mobike on the runway on Wednesday.

Dhoni was flown in on a special IAF aircraft. His racer bike too was flown in with him.

On the first day of his three-day visit, Dhoni raced a taxiing Jaguar. In no time, the bike's speedometer had hit the limit.

Later in the day, Dhoni took part in an entertainment programme at Gorbandh auditorium. He will play a friendly match with the IAF personnel during his stay here.

http://www.idrw.org/2008/06/18/dhoni_ra ... obike.html

some unusual news from iaf and dhoni
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Dmurphy »

vivek_ahuja wrote:Its gone way beyond that. I think the first flight is next year or sometime then.
I've come across articles claiming the LCH will take light by the end of 2008 itself, but with full armament or not, i do not know. Has anybody seen its mock up?, it looks sexy 8)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by bart »

vivek_ahuja wrote:Katare,

The LCH carries two Shakti powerplants (same as the ALH). These are supposed to provide enough power to lift 5500Kg at lower altitudes. So the LCH can carry a much heavier load than what you see in the pictures there when at sea level.

At higher altitudes, despite the name Shakti, the powerplant drops the power output even at full throttle beyond around 10,000 ft. Beyond 15,000 feet you are looking are serious degradation of lifting capacity. At that point the LCH assumes its name: Light Combat Helicopter

The loadout you see is what you can expect to see when it flies around in the Laddakh regions.

Cannot expect much from a dedicated gunship at those punishing altitudes.

-Vivek
How does that compare with others like Apache, Tiger etc - can they carry higher payload at high altitudes or is the LCH capability par for the course? Nato helicopters are heavily used in Afghanistan but pehaps not at the same altitudes.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Aditya_V »

I don't think the Apache can fly over 12000ft,, let alone carry a payload
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by krishnan »

Model number: AH-64
Rotor diameter: 48 feet
Length: 48 feet 2 inches
Height: 15 feet 3 inches
Ceiling: 21,000 feet
Range: 260 miles
Power plant: Two 1,900-shaft-horsepower GE T700 turboshaft engines
Top speed: 192 mph
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Aditya_V »

Service ceiling
The service ceiling attempts to capture the maximum usable altitude of an aircraft. Specifically, it is the density altitude at which flying in a clean configuration, at the best rate of climb airspeed for that altitude and with all engines operating and producing maximum continuous power, will produce a 100 feet per minute climb. Margin to stall at service ceiling is 1.5g.

The one engine inoperative (OEI) service ceiling of a twin-engine, fixed-wing aircraft is the density altitude at which flying in a clean configuration, at the best rate of climb airspeed for that altitude with one engine producing maximum continuous power and the other engine shut down and feathered, will produce a 50 feet per minute climb.

However some performance charts will define the service ceiling as the pressure altitude at which the aircraft will have the capability of climbing at 50 fpm with one propeller feathered.


[edit] Absolute ceiling
A less often used term is the absolute ceiling – the highest altitude an airplane can sustain level flight, or altitude above which the cabin pressurization system can no longer maintain a sufficient oxygen level for passengers and crew, and where the pressure differential is so great as to put severe stress on the pressure cabin of the aircraft. Most commercial jetliners have a ceiling of about 42,000 feet (12,802 meters) while some business jets can reach 52,000 feet or higher (15,850 meters.)

This article about aviation terminology is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceiling_%28aeronautics%29"
I think from the above quote the service celing of 21000 ft for Apache is more a best of Brochure claim. From the time from Kargil, I heard that in Kosovo that the APache were not too useful since they could not really climb over 21000 ft. Thats why even in war on terror I don't think the APache's had too much sucess in Afganistan unlike Iraq
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

http://www.imi-israel.com/Product.aspx? ... &docID=345

the fat bomb in the above pic was contracted by IAF and supposed to be
tested by su30 in 2007. its a 500lb container with 15000 steel pellets
blasted out by 100-150kg of HE charge. said to shred anything in a
50-75m radius. and being only 500lb any of jag, m2k, tejas, mig27
and su30 can deliver between 6-10 of these.

but I am all ears if anyone has news of bigger meat in the range of
5000-15000lb. the russians have a FAB-5000 irc in HE and FAE versions.

MTA must from _day1_ have adaptor racks and handling systems both
onboard and onground for delivery of 250-15000lb munitions in carpet
bombing role and release of GPS guided isolated weapons like 15000lb
FAE.

it must have 4 stressed pylon points in the wing for external fuel tanks
or bombs/missiles in the "G" version for use by IAF and SF units.

otherwise there is no point in crowing about being engaged with MTa
from initial stage if we cannot get a swiss army knife like C130 kitted
up for
- medium range cargo
- long range/high alt cargo with external tanks
- carpet bomber (4-10tons)
- ALCM launch (4 missiles)
- standoff jammer using palletized ro-ro kits
- SF low level/long range night intruder with extra nav-aids
- gunship version with side mounted twin 30mm cannon/HMG and AGL.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Aditya_V wrote:I don't think the Apache can fly over 12000ft,, let alone carry a payload
I am not too sure about that.

Check out the link below. It is the personal experience of Apache pilots in Afghanistan.

Apaches in Afghanistan
During the winter months at Kandahar, our aircraft performed well. We had six aircraft equipped with T700-GE-701C engines and two equipped with T700-GE-701 engines. On a daily basis, we had power available to hover out of ground effect (OGE). Even though we had OGE power, we still had to pay close attention to our TGT because we were operating close to dual engine automatic TGT limiting. We knew that it would not be long before power was a luxury that we would not have.

Within three weeks of our arrival, our missions started taking us to higher and higher altitudes. Prior to my arrival in Afghanistan, I had never been above 10,000 MSL in an Apache. Our first mission took us from Kandahar to Bagram Airbase to refuel and then on to the eastern city of Khowst. While en route to Khowst, we crossed a snow-covered mountain at 11,500 MSL. The free air temperature was -15 degrees Celsius (5º) when we crossed the peak.

While climbing to cross the peak, I applied my maximum torque available from my PPC and noticed that I was not close to TGT limiting. I slowly increased the power until I drooped the rotor and then decreased the collective. I still had not reached TGT limiting, but the droop in rotor RPM was the result of fuel flow limiting. I knew fuel flow limiting existed and how to attain the information from chapter seven of my operator’s manual, but had never been exposed to it before.
The thing I am trying to get at is that at around 12000 feet ASL, the apache has not yet reached TGT (Turbine-Gas-Temperature) limits but has reached full fuel flow limits. Given that the full load capacity of the Apache was not achieved during the flight, then for a maximum load capacity, the altitude for achieving full throttle is around 9000 feet at which point it can lift around 10000Kg (including itself). By comparison, the Dhruv reaches full Throttle limits at around the same altitude and can carry around 5000Kg (including itself). These are maximum values. If you keep the payload lower, you can avoid hitting the TGT mark and the fall in RPM to a higher altitude.

extrapolating that performance for the AH-64 to higher altitudes, you end up at around 19000 feet where the apache can sustain only its weight and a small fuel amount. This does not include gun ammo.

In other words, for operational purposes the Apache is limited to less than 18500 feet altitudes depending on the load-out but in a clean configuration (no weapons) and small fuel amount can go upto around 19500 feet.

In comparison, the LCH can carry a decent weapons load at the Apaches no-load altitude and in a clean config can go higher: the main difference between a light and a heavy attack helicopter
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by bart »

Thanks for the info Vivek.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

Jane's quotes Apache service ceiling as 19-21000 ft depending on version. The "hovering ceiling" is 13000 feet. This of course means that the density of the air plays a great role in its maneuverability (as expected). Checking a Google Earth map of Tibet, the Apache would be able to fly over, but for serious maneuverability and hiding behind peaks and "popping up" it would be seriously challenged.

Just my guess.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sunilUpa »

Apache and Mi-28N stand apart from other competitors due to their mmw Radars mounted on top of Rotors. MMW radar can sweep battlefield in a single scan, and share the data with other helicopters, providing target information, without exposing themself.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Katare »

Vivek,

Thanks for the information, hope they know what they are doing!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Govt may stick to Dhruv, despite ‘no’ from Navy
text
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

sunilUpa wrote:Apache and Mi-28N stand apart from other competitors due to their mmw Radars mounted on top of Rotors. MMW radar can sweep battlefield in a single scan, and share the data with other helicopters, providing target information, without exposing themself.
Last Aero India I had a chance to ask the LCH people about the "above nose" positioning of sensors and compare with the on-top of rotor positioning of Apache. Both Boeing and HAL were in the same hall and the people had interacted. It appears that the rotor mounted thing has had serious issues with vibration. It might be one thing to actually mount the thing on a rotor - but making it work consistently while being incessantly buffeted by everything that moves in the helicopter may be a trick that is difficult to perform.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sunilUpa »

shiv wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:Apache and Mi-28N stand apart from other competitors due to their mmw Radars mounted on top of Rotors. MMW radar can sweep battlefield in a single scan, and share the data with other helicopters, providing target information, without exposing themself.
Last Aero India I had a chance to ask the LCH people about the "above nose" positioning of sensors and compare with the on-top of rotor positioning of Apache. Both Boeing and HAL were in the same hall and the people had interacted. It appears that the rotor mounted thing has had serious issues with vibration. It might be one thing to actually mount the thing on a rotor - but making it work consistently while being incessantly buffeted by everything that moves in the helicopter may be a trick that is difficult to perform.
Thanks for the info Shiv. Apache has the optronics in the nose, and Longbow Radar above Rotor. Having that Radar, does give big advantage, especially if attacking a armoured formation with integral air defence (which is normally the practice).
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

LCH doesnt have radar in present config. I have only see "kiowa" and couple more tiny helis
mount optronics ball on mast. radar maybe able to live with some vibration but not
optronics.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by SaiK »

q: is it a difficult engineering to have a static longbow type aesa radar chappati on top of the dhruv/lch rotor?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Ajay K »

Singha Post subject: Re: Indian Military AviationPosted: 19 Jun 2008 08:23 am
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the fat bomb in the above pic was contracted by IAF and supposed to be
......................................................
Very correct, MTA should be able to configured for the roles you mentioned(C-130J) features.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Jaeger »

Singha wrote:LCH doesnt have radar in present config. I have only see "kiowa" and couple more tiny helis
mount optronics ball on mast. radar maybe able to live with some vibration but not
optronics.

What about this then? Tiger UHT It's about the same size as the LCH.

I'm sure there are vibration issues with mast-mounted sights, but several choppers, from the Kiowa to the Tiger use mast-mounted sights - so the solution is there.

I've searched a bit and can't seem to find any references to problems with MMS's... so I don't think it's such an insurmountable problem. Perhaps a nose-mounted sight is easier to produce and maintain with higher tolerances, and that's why LCH has this mounting.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Dileep »

It is just engineering detail to place a sensor on top of the rotor, but you know where the devil lives :twisted:

No need for out of the world technologies, or exotic materials. Just good precision engineering, and a lot of simulation and testing. That is all it takes.

But much easier to mount it on the nose and forget about it. Path of least resistance onlee.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by SaiK »

quite right dileep, especially when helos are blunt anyways and have higher surface on the nose (perhaps face, we may say). on the exotic-ness, i may have to disagree on the relative definitions for the needs, but on the technology & engineering front, no materials or methods could be ignored due to its nature, or availability (cost evaluation etc). btw, we all always tend to keep thinking costs, for home grown defence production that is invaluable in the long run [arjun, lca, ads, atv...], plus the experience and setup that actually is the pillar to tech and engineering maturity. Unless there is a desire, there would not be any need.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

After Gorshkov, Russia demands more money again
By Ajai Shukla
link
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shetty »

sanjaychoudhry wrote:After Gorshkov, Russia demands more money again
By Ajai Shukla
link
And thus the game begins.

Be ready for this familiar game to be played over and over again in other deals we do with them. Unfortunately, we don't have a choice. Its either them or bulding it indegenously. And we all know the kind of support we will get from the services for indeginous products and projects.

As they say, we reap what we sow.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kakkaji »

sanjaychoudhry wrote:After Gorshkov, Russia demands more money again
By Ajai Shukla
link

From the above link:
MoD sources point out that even with the extra $64 million added on, NPO Saturn's price will be less than what Snecma quoted. They also grudgingly accept that Russia is the only major arms manufacturer that actually transfers all the technology to India that is demanded in a contract. But the biggest reason for paying up quietly is that the IJT programme, which has already waited three years for this engine, will face a delay of several more years if it launches an international search for another engine.
If it was just a question of price, I would say go with France, even if costlier.

Sastaa roye baar baar. Mehangaa roye ek baar.

But if the French are not willing to part with technology as much as the Russians are, then we have to quietly tolerate the games that the Russians are playing.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kersi D »

shetty wrote:
sanjaychoudhry wrote:After Gorshkov, Russia demands more money again
By Ajai Shukla
link
And thus the game begins.

.............. Unfortunately, we don't have a choice .................

SAYS WHO ?

The choice was Tubomeca Larzac. But we/HAL/IAF/netas/baus chose the Russians.

At this rate I think Russians are driving themselves away form the MRCA deal unless they have sufficiently bribed the GOI/IAF/babus.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Raveen »

might as well pay a premium and stop the Russians from thinking they can blackmail us and break every contract!
why dont we drag em to court for breach of contract?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

While the big news is that IJT's engine has finally arrived from Russia, giving the project a boost, Ajai Shukla has strangely only concentrated on the demand for more money from Russians. HIndu gives more details:
HAL’s Intermediate Jet Trainer programme gets a timely boost
Prototype of long-delayed Russian engine arrives
IJT’s first flight with the AL-55I likely by September
AL-55I has a higher thrust rating than French-made Snecma Larzac 04H20


The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s floundering Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) programme just got a shot in the arm.

A prototype of the long-delayed Russian engine that will power the trainer has arrived here.

Developed by the Russian aero engine house NPO Saturn and christened AL-55I (I for Indian), the custom-made engine — which was to have arrived last November — has a higher thrust rating than the French-made Snecma Larzac 04H20 engine, currently flying the two IJT prototypes.

The AL-55I has been built keeping the Air Force’s staff requirements in mind and is a scaled-down version of the AL-31FP engine that flies the Su-30 MKI combat aircraft.

Official sources from the HAL working on the programme told The Hindu that the Russian engine had been fitted on the IJT prototype one and the aircraft was almost ready for the all-important ‘engine ground run.’
www.hindu.com/2008/06/23/stories/2008062359581000.htm
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Ardeshir »

Raveen wrote:might as well pay a premium and stop the Russians from thinking they can blackmail us and break every contract!
why dont we drag em to court for breach of contract?
Like someone already mentioned on these forums, you can only take to court entities who have a rule of law, or atleast believe in a legal solution.
So you can take the US or the UK or France to court, but entities like Russia and China who consider themselves beyond the law cannot really be taken to court.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Raveen »

Raveen wrote:
might as well pay a premium and stop the Russians from thinking they can blackmail us and break every contract!
why dont we drag em to court for breach of contract?

Like someone already mentioned on these forums, you can only take to court entities who have a rule of law, or atleast believe in a legal solution.
So you can take the US or the UK or France to court, but entities like Russia and China who consider themselves beyond the law cannot really be taken to court
Then why do business with them?
Why isnt Igorr defending his country's stance here?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by prasadha »

Hi

I don't understand why you expect Igorr to defend Russia? It is not as if he is a representative of the company which sold the engines to us.

For me, the seller is trying to negotiate additional payments - and seems to have some reasons for it like additional time and related investment. Cost escalations happen in all projects due to various reasons. Instead of thinking about conspiracy theories, I am sure IAF will negotiate with Russia and find a reasonable solution.

Prasad
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Vivek K »

Gentlemen, there is a saying - a fool and his money are easily parted. This is the result of the flawed policies of the MOD and the armed forces. Total dependance on foreign vendors is the cause of this blackmail/ransom demand.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Raveen »

Hi

I don't understand why you expect Igorr to defend Russia? It is not as if he is a representative of the company which sold the engines to us.

For me, the seller is trying to negotiate additional payments - and seems to have some reasons for it like additional time and related investment. Cost escalations happen in all projects due to various reasons. Instead of thinking about conspiracy theories, I am sure IAF will negotiate with Russia and find a reasonable solution.

Prasad
Hi

I don't understand why you expect Igorr to defend Russia? It is not as if he is a representative of the company which sold the engines to us.

For me, the seller is trying to negotiate additional payments - and seems to have some reasons for it like additional time and related investment. Cost escalations happen in all projects due to various reasons. Instead of thinking about conspiracy theories, I am sure IAF will negotiate with Russia and find a reasonable solution.

Prasad
I am aware that Igorr is not a representative of the company; but looking at how he is neither a representative of Russia (not officially appointed as per my knowledge) nor a representative of thier products why does he make it a point to relentlessly defend Russian goods/services/products and proclaim them as the best out there? It would only be logical for him to defend them for this as he has defended them in previous instances!

Anyhow, I hope Prasad, that somewhere down the line you recognize that this constitutes breach of contract and is illegal!
I also hope you are this understanding when GTRE asks for additional funds and time. or when for that matter Isreal asks for more money and time for the Phalcons...you give in to the Russians again and again you are going to set a precedent. Everyone who every sells anything to you from now on in, will ask for more money and time!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by narmad »

I am aware that Igorr is not a representative of the company; but looking at how he is neither a representative of Russia (not officially appointed as per my knowledge) nor a representative of thier products why does he make it a point to relentlessly defend Russian goods/services/products and proclaim them as the best out there? It would only be logical for him to defend them for this as he has defended them in previous instances!
Igorr is just an individual like you, me, Shankarosky or Marcos( where is he gone ?? :twisted: ).
He can defend the products or goods which he thinks are good. But he doesnt have to Defend Russia's policies just because he is a Russian.
If he wants to he will, we cant ask him to

Anyways, comming back to the point this is what happens when you deal with a Totalitarian government (democratic or communist). You cannot challange them in court and you cannot talk about ethics and such.About setting a precedent it all boils down to your need and how much balls GOI has
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

To prasant, prasadha , raveen and others,

guys, do get a sense of India's capabilities and past record when
you discuss arms procurement by us.

India/GoI is always reputed to drive a very hard bargain.

The abilities of our babus in this field can't be questioned.
Compared to most other arms buyers, we usually end up getting
a bit more bang for the same buck, all due to these babus' skills and
the forces' insistence on quality.

All this usually means that most of our suppliers, especially russian ones
operate on a very small margin of profitability.
Hence, whenever genuine problems like the devaluation of the us $ crop up,
they run the risk of losing their entire profit.
And what will be true for one project will also be true for other projects right ??
Think about the AG/mki projects this way and you will find that India agreed to
the cost escalation, only because the demands were reasonable to some extent.

Why do you want to think the babus are good for nothing ?
That perception is grossly incorrect, IMO.

Also, in major restructuring/construction projects like the gorshkov, cost overruns are
normal all over the world.
worldwide, almost all major naval construction projects have run into
cost overruns of some kind of other.
What the heck, check the record of our own govt. owned shipyards in this matter !!

regarding igorr, he is long time member of good standing and he is free to
believe and support whomever/whatever he wants to.

moreover, why does anyone have to support any entity depending on where they come
from ??

do you seriously think I ought to support the commies from bengal ? :wink:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Igorr »

Prasant wrote: So you can take the US or the UK or France to court, but entities like Russia and China who consider themselves beyond the law cannot really be taken to court.
You are right about China, but about Russia it's not just right. The Indian side of the contract still can turn to Russian curt and ask for fulfill it I think. BTW, the IPR agreement assumes a possibility to turn in a court. I remember publication of many deals when the disputes between companies , Russian and foreign, were decided in the courts, both in Russia and abroad in third country. Of course have to be an opinion of a law maker professional to understand what can be done for the instance. And Russia isnt 'totalitarian regime' anymore...
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