Indian Military Aviation

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2008 20:01

rrao wrote:
shiv wrote:
soutikghosh wrote:
G-550 or even a A-320 would have been a better platform.


With respect, may I ask what you know that the designers of the system do not know?


Shiv saab! i am also of the same opinion of Ghosh ! why cant it be A320 kind of aircraft.Aircraft is a like a pet dog . Any foreign object externall mounted or internally mounted and whose weight is comparable with the aircraft weight,makes the faithful dog to go rabid! How much our half baked designers know? ppl will spit fire if i say this. What happened to the ASP programme! It ended up in a horrific crash in the turbulent sea weather conditions at arakkonam. The rotodome was mounted on a teeny weeny HS-748 AVRO, which is only designed to ferry ppl. Its like the pillion rider practising kung-fu on the back seat of a moving two wheeler.The rotodome had a huge aerodynamic impact on the AVRO and ultimately ended up in crash, killing a very key signal processing person Dr.NRU of LRDE. Along with him, the MMR signal processing programme too nose dived. i was told ,the crash was so intense, that ppl died in the accident got crushed like chappatis! They should have chosen IL-76 or any of the A300, Boeing series. There would have been no necessity of PHALCONS. i am too small to give you gyan on this, but couldnt help remembering Dr.NRU,with whome everybody had good rapport.


rrao - you would make a good "shiv or BR" in the strength of your rhetoric and complete absence of data.

I don;t mean to be obtuse or rude but you have said nothing that shows that you have any information about actual weights of equipment in the Avro, the exact reason for the crash or the exact weights and configuration of the equipment on the Embraer. In the absence of that the two of us become the ideal sparring partnerrs - two blind people with the same love for India but with little information of substantive value.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby soutikghosh » 06 Jul 2008 21:11

Shivji don't get angry at some aircraft suggetion other than EMB. Only thing I was trying to tell was that just after EMB aircrafts were purchased from Brazil for IAF VIP duties and BSF Air Wing for MHA VIP Duties, these aircrafts were grounded for quite a long time just after they were delivered for technical reason. These AWACS platform will have to perform round the clock in time of emergency. So I was trying to tell that why choose an aircraft platform for such important role which has got limited presence in India over aircrafts like A-318.320,321 which are very well present in Indian commercial skies, so no spare parts problem. Then you get more space for future upgrades and more crew comfort in a bigger platform than EMB.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 07 Jul 2008 02:25

DARE wants BEL, IAF to fund EW suite for MiG-29s

The Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), which has the wherewithal to develop an electronic warfare (EW) suite that could be installed on MiG-29s, has asked Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and the Indian Air Force to put up a substantial portion of the around Rs. 170 crore required for developing the equipment. The MiG-29s are being upgraded in Russia.

This is in keeping with the new line of thinking of its parent body, Defence Research and Development Organisation, namely to incorporate industry and the user into a project right from the start by getting industry to financially commit itself to the project. For its part, DRDO will ensure that the industrial partner will secure the production order for the equipment.

Talking to The Hindu just before his retirement, Director R.P. Ramalingam said that his laboratory could offer a state of the art EW suite for the MiG-29, including a radar warning receiver and a self protection jammer, provided the production agency came up with funding.

“BEL is prepared to put up a portion of the project’s cost, but this will first have to be cleared by their board. BEL also wants an assurance that the production order for the EW will go to them.”

With each EW suite expected to cost Rs. 15 crore, the production order for BEL could be around Rs. 1,000 crore.


http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/07/stories ... 601300.htm

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Juggi G » 07 Jul 2008 02:45


shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2008 06:37

soutikghosh wrote:Shivji don't get angry at some aircraft suggetion other than EMB. Only thing I was trying to tell was that just after EMB aircrafts were purchased from Brazil for IAF VIP duties and BSF Air Wing for MHA VIP Duties, these aircrafts were grounded for quite a long time just after they were delivered for technical reason. These AWACS platform will have to perform round the clock in time of emergency. So I was trying to tell that why choose an aircraft platform for such important role which has got limited presence in India over aircrafts like A-318.320,321 which are very well present in Indian commercial skies, so no spare parts problem. Then you get more space for future upgrades and more crew comfort in a bigger platform than EMB.



No anger here.

What you have stated is, with respect, a no brainer. Even a person who flies a model aeroplane will realise that there are some basic requirements to keep it flying. What makes you think that those requirements that you and I can both think of so easily have NOT been considered by the IAF and CABS? That is what I am asking.

By using your analogy - the Air Force should never have flown MiG 25s because they were hardly present in the skies. But the IAF flew them safely for decades. So "obvious analogies" do not necessarily reflect deeper realities.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nayak » 07 Jul 2008 10:38

Go easy on me folks.

Sometime back when trawling through the baki fora on the internet, I came across a couple of sensible posts from a Baki.

He said that Jaguars and Mig 27s were seen more threatening than say a Mirage-2000 or Su-30 by the PA. PA is scared of a horde of Jags and 27s swooping down on the abduls, dropping the ordinance on exposed infantry and scooting off before fizzle-ya could be called up.

I know that IAF practices a lot in desert with the Jags and 27s during exercises, but have they been used near the chicom's territory coming under the current area of interest ?

Thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 07 Jul 2008 12:05

http://pib.nic.in/photo/2008/Jul/l2008070618530.jpg
The Air Chief Marshal, FH Major with the members of IAF's team for exercise 'Red Flag’ (USA) prior to their departure date at Air Force Station Pune on July 06, 2008.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby MukulMohanty » 07 Jul 2008 16:11

In Flying Colours
India sells seven Dhruv helicopters to Ecuador, marking its entry to the international aviation market

Outbid giants like Eurocopter, Elbit

Comes as a boost to indigenisation of India's military industrial complex.

It took 20 years and Rs 1,000 crore to develop the advanced light helicopter

Cheaper by 32 per cent; operational cost is $650 per hour vis-a-vis $850 per hour for comparable helicopters

Peru, Bolivia likely to buy Dhruv soon
***

Bangalore is making news in faraway Ecuador.



"We will set up a team in South America—to give maintenance support, market more machines." Ashok Baweja Chairman, HAL


Last week, India, a rank newcomer, outbid some of the biggest helicopter-manufacturing nations in the world to bag an order, etching its very first imprint in the international aviation market. India sold seven indigenously built advanced light helicopters for $50 million to the Ecuadorian air force, marking a new beginning.

It was after taking on some of the best systems


in the world that the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) won the bid. "Our offer emerged 32 per cent lower than the others," gushes Ashok Baweja, chairman of HAL. His excitement is understandable. HAL had outbid Elbit Systems from Israel and aviation giant Eurocopter, a consortium of several European countries. Both companies have decades of experience in building helicopters.

Dhruv, the advanced light helicopter that HAL successfully sold, took 24 years in the making. It began as a modest project in 1984 when the defence PSU put together a team to build a helicopter that could meet the multi-mission requirements of the Indian army, navy and air force. With a little help from mbb, a German aviation company, the Indian team of rotary wing designers came up with a machine that could take on the best in the world. In its 24-year-old journey, the Dhruv saw several setbacks and many design challenges.

But now that HAL has made its entry in the international market, the company's efforts at indigenisation will also be strengthened. International recognition of quality is indeed a big plus. Points out Baweja: "If we can sell more of Dhruv in the export market, it'll boost our bid to indigenise complex military systems. We are already in the process of working out a design for a light combat helicopter. It must be ready to fly in two years." Meanwhile, HAL has started working on the weaponisation of the Dhruv and its Mark iii and IV variants. In fact, the helicopter, designed at a cost of Rs 1,000 crore spread over 20 years, will now be the flag-bearer of India's indigenisation programme in defence aeronautics.

The Dhruv, which saw its first prototype take to the skies on August 21, 1992, has had a chequered history. By 2002, HAL had produced a machine that could be marketed to international buyers. But there were no takers. A joint marketing venture with the Israelis raised false hopes. Indian diplomats failed to convince the Israelis to buy a Dhruv to raise international confidence levels in the product.

It was indeed a long haul. Recalls wing commander C.D. Upadhyay, now the chief test pilot of HAL's rotary wing and one of the first to fly the Dhruv: "For us, just to fly in a completely indigenous helicopter was an overwhelming feeling. But we also knew that we had a long way to go." A major hurdle was the refusal of international aviation companies to share technology. "The biggest challenge for us was to develop a transmission system at a time when even private car manufacturers refused to share details of their gear-box systems," says N. Sheshadri, who is the chief designer of the Dhruv team.

Dhruv, say officials, has become a testimony of Indian design and product enhancement skills.

"For the first time, we have a product that has a 70 per cent serviceability," S. N. Mishra, joint secretary, HAL, in the ministry of defence, told Outlook. This means the Dhruvs would spend more time in the air than in the hangar for maintenance. This 70:30 ratio is comparable with the best helicopters in the world. Earlier, serviceability was a major issue as the Dhruv's performance was below international levels. "There were issues of design, and the light replacement units were frequently failing. We worked on this for two years and upgraded serviceability to 70 per cent but we aim to go higher than that," says Mishra.

Distant drones: Dhruv helicopters at the 2008 Berlin Air Show

For months, the design team along with senior HAL officials would regularly meet in Mishra's office in South Block to monitor progress. In 2006-07, the Americans had edged out the Dhruv, which came close to bagging a huge order in Chile. Similar marketing efforts almost paid off in Turkey and Malaysia. By the time the Dhruv went to Ecuador last year, the HAL team was ready with impressive performance data. Points out Mishra: "Not only was our helicopter cheaper by 32 per cent but its operational costs were 30 per cent less than the competition. While other helicopters in the similar category cost $850 per hour of flying, the Dhruv operates at $650." According to him, HAL has also managed to break through several design challenges such as developing a unique carbon fibre composite that has reduced the helicopter's weight by 50 per cent.

Having convinced Ecuador's air force, the Dhruv is close to clinching orders from Peru and Bolivia. Suddenly, South America is emerging as a market where HAL has ambitious plans. "We will set up a team there. It will not only be in a position to give good maintenance support, but will also be able to market more machines to other countries," says Baweja. Clearly, HAL is learning from past mistakes. Many years ago, it had assembled Dornier aircraft under licence and sold them to Mauritius. Poor product support, but, severely eroded the company's credibility.

However, with Dhruv, HAL seems to have a winner. It is now all set to sell 159 helicopters to the Indian armed forces. For the military establishment, long used to importing and setting up assembly-line production facilities under strict licence regimes, Dhruv is the first major step towards India's emergence as a global player in defence aviation.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Neela » 08 Jul 2008 13:05

Somebody earlier pointed out that HAL lacked/was not prepared for after-sales service. The above post shows that HAL is acting and acting fast.


Having convinced Ecuador's air force, the Dhruv is close to clinching orders from Peru and Bolivia. Suddenly, South America is emerging as a market where HAL has ambitious plans. "We will set up a team there. It will not only be in a position to give good maintenance support, but will also be able to market more machines to other countries,"


Performance wise the Dhruv seems to be satisfactory.
A blow to competitors is the price...30% cheaper.
Finally, nothing is more satisfying to a customer than to know that help is at hand. Looks like HAL is moving to corner the market! With variants still in testing phase and HAL establishing a base in S.America, things bode well for the future.

I guess one thing to learn is this: We at BRF _discuss_ this while HAL _does_ this work day in and day out...and they know bloody well what they are doing.

My heartfelt congrats to the folks at HAL and best wishes for the orders In Peru and Bolivia.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nayak » 08 Jul 2008 14:12

Picked up the AFM rag from the local book dealer.

AFM has a serious fixation with Fizzle ya. There is no mention of IAF or PlAAF in it's Asia section.

They have a full length feature of libyan mirages cannibalised for keeping their Mirages flying but just one teeny weeny picture of IAF mirage painted in tiger stripes.

One good article was the russian refuelling process of midas was explained in detail. Also RuAF took the delivery of 16th TU-160 black jack :evil: :evil: :evil:

All in all a waste of my money on this month's edition.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Philip » 08 Jul 2008 15:51

Flight has a news item that says that our IJT-36 is going to be further delayed by at least two years thanks to the delivery of the Russian engine (one year late),plus the availablity of only one prototype since the only other one,as we saw,injured itself at the last air show and appears not to have been repaired so far..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 08 Jul 2008 16:26

philip, I think the second info may be suspect.
shukla had reported during the al-55 handover that it was fitted in the crashed specimen
or something to that order. IIRC it was undergoing runs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 08 Jul 2008 18:04

Rahul M wrote:philip, I think the second info may be suspect.
shukla had reported during the al-55 handover that it was fitted in the crashed specimen
or something to that order. IIRC it was undergoing runs.


Yep, here is the link,

clicky

Incidentally, the IJT in the picture is the same one that veered off the runway in Aero India 2007, when its canopy opened during take off

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dhanush » 09 Jul 2008 20:12

MukulMohanty wrote:In Flying Colours
India sells seven Dhruv helicopters to Ecuador, marking its entry to the international aviation market

Outbid giants like Eurocopter, Elbit

Comes as a boost to indigenisation of India's military industrial complex.

It took 20 years and Rs 1,000 crore to develop the advanced light helicopter

Cheaper by 32 per cent; operational cost is $650 per hour vis-a-vis $850 per hour for comparable helicopters

Peru, Bolivia likely to buy Dhruv soon
***

Bangalore is making news in faraway Ecuador.



"We will set up a team in South America—to give maintenance support, market more machines." Ashok Baweja Chairman, HAL


Last week, India, a rank newcomer, outbid some of the biggest helicopter-manufacturing nations in the world to bag an order, etching its very first imprint in the international aviation market. India sold seven indigenously built advanced light helicopters for $50 million to the Ecuadorian air force, marking a new beginning.

It was after taking on some of the best systems


in the world that the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) won the bid. "Our offer emerged 32 per cent lower than the others," gushes Ashok Baweja, chairman of HAL. His excitement is understandable. HAL had outbid Elbit Systems from Israel and aviation giant Eurocopter, a consortium of several European countries. Both companies have decades of experience in building helicopters.

Dhruv, the advanced light helicopter that HAL successfully sold, took 24 years in the making. It began as a modest project in 1984 when the defence PSU put together a team to build a helicopter that could meet the multi-mission requirements of the Indian army, navy and air force. With a little help from mbb, a German aviation company, the Indian team of rotary wing designers came up with a machine that could take on the best in the world. In its 24-year-old journey, the Dhruv saw several setbacks and many design challenges.

But now that HAL has made its entry in the international market, the company's efforts at indigenisation will also be strengthened. International recognition of quality is indeed a big plus. Points out Baweja: "If we can sell more of Dhruv in the export market, it'll boost our bid to indigenise complex military systems. We are already in the process of working out a design for a light combat helicopter. It must be ready to fly in two years." Meanwhile, HAL has started working on the weaponisation of the Dhruv and its Mark iii and IV variants. In fact, the helicopter, designed at a cost of Rs 1,000 crore spread over 20 years, will now be the flag-bearer of India's indigenisation programme in defence aeronautics.

The Dhruv, which saw its first prototype take to the skies on August 21, 1992, has had a chequered history. By 2002, HAL had produced a machine that could be marketed to international buyers. But there were no takers. A joint marketing venture with the Israelis raised false hopes. Indian diplomats failed to convince the Israelis to buy a Dhruv to raise international confidence levels in the product.

It was indeed a long haul. Recalls wing commander C.D. Upadhyay, now the chief test pilot of HAL's rotary wing and one of the first to fly the Dhruv: "For us, just to fly in a completely indigenous helicopter was an overwhelming feeling. But we also knew that we had a long way to go." A major hurdle was the refusal of international aviation companies to share technology. "The biggest challenge for us was to develop a transmission system at a time when even private car manufacturers refused to share details of their gear-box systems," says N. Sheshadri, who is the chief designer of the Dhruv team.

Dhruv, say officials, has become a testimony of Indian design and product enhancement skills.

"For the first time, we have a product that has a 70 per cent serviceability," S. N. Mishra, joint secretary, HAL, in the ministry of defence, told Outlook. This means the Dhruvs would spend more time in the air than in the hangar for maintenance. This 70:30 ratio is comparable with the best helicopters in the world. Earlier, serviceability was a major issue as the Dhruv's performance was below international levels. "There were issues of design, and the light replacement units were frequently failing. We worked on this for two years and upgraded serviceability to 70 per cent but we aim to go higher than that," says Mishra.

Distant drones: Dhruv helicopters at the 2008 Berlin Air Show

For months, the design team along with senior HAL officials would regularly meet in Mishra's office in South Block to monitor progress. In 2006-07, the Americans had edged out the Dhruv, which came close to bagging a huge order in Chile. Similar marketing efforts almost paid off in Turkey and Malaysia. By the time the Dhruv went to Ecuador last year, the HAL team was ready with impressive performance data. Points out Mishra: "Not only was our helicopter cheaper by 32 per cent but its operational costs were 30 per cent less than the competition. While other helicopters in the similar category cost $850 per hour of flying, the Dhruv operates at $650." According to him, HAL has also managed to break through several design challenges such as developing a unique carbon fibre composite that has reduced the helicopter's weight by 50 per cent.

Having convinced Ecuador's air force, the Dhruv is close to clinching orders from Peru and Bolivia. Suddenly, South America is emerging as a market where HAL has ambitious plans. "We will set up a team there. It will not only be in a position to give good maintenance support, but will also be able to market more machines to other countries," says Baweja. Clearly, HAL is learning from past mistakes. Many years ago, it had assembled Dornier aircraft under licence and sold them to Mauritius. Poor product support, but, severely eroded the company's credibility.

However, with Dhruv, HAL seems to have a winner. It is now all set to sell 159 helicopters to the Indian armed forces. For the military establishment, long used to importing and setting up assembly-line production facilities under strict licence regimes, Dhruv is the first major step towards India's emergence as a global player in defence aviation.


:shock: The LCH was supposed to fly this year isn't it?
Has that been delayed by two years? :evil:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 10 Jul 2008 02:42

Samtel bags major HAL order worth 250 cr

Samtel, a new entrant into the country's growing defence electronics market, today announced it had won a major deal order worth more than Rs 250 crores from the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd to manufacture indigenous Multi Functional Displays for SU-30 fighters and jet trainers.

Samtel, which is India's largest integrated manufacturer of television displays and avionics, said the production would be carried out in a joint venture company to be called 'Samtel-HAL Display Systems'.

With this the 300-million dollar company would be the first Indian JV to produce such Multi Functional Displays (MFDs) in the country. Samtel has also tied up with European aviation and defence system major Thales to make similar MFDs and cockpit helmets for the upgraded Mirage 2000.

"The LCD based MFDs have already undergone extensive testing by Defence Avionics and Research Establishment (DARE) for their flight worthiness," a company spokesman said.

These MFDs are likely to be installed in SU-30 MKI fighters which are being assembled at HAL under technology transfer from the Russian manufacturers. In the next few years HAL is to assemble 120 Sukois.

The systems would also be installed in HAL's own advanced intermediate jet trainers as well as British Hawk trainers.


http://www.business-standard.com/common ... tono=41800


Samtel to make avionics systems for Sukhoi, Tejas
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 69614.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby narayana » 10 Jul 2008 12:24

:shock: The LCH was supposed to fly this year isn't it?
Has that been delayed by two years? :evil:


No,According to Mr.Ashok Baweja first flight of LCH is scheduled this year end

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby namit k » 10 Jul 2008 22:12

can someone tell what new systems or advantages will be there in LCH
in order to compete in international market :?:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby K Mehta » 10 Jul 2008 23:12

Namit welcome to BR, before making further posts I would request you to hang around, lurk for a while and get some more gyan. I also request to you browse the BR main site, it is a treasure trove of info, again welcome to BR.
KM

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ranganathan » 10 Jul 2008 23:48

namit k wrote:can someone tell what new systems or advantages will be there in LCH
in order to compete in international market :?:



Cost, developed for high altitude use, commonality with Dhruv, comes with entire range of weapons : Helina, 20 mm canon, rockets, mistral AAM.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jul 2008 12:29

Nuke deal draft given to IAEA, mysteriously all objections to the VIP aircraft are also cleared.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby namit k » 12 Jul 2008 01:46

Your post has nothing to do with the title of this thread, and this pattern is repeating often, please take note of this.
Last edited by JaiS on 12 Jul 2008 02:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Irrelevant post

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 12 Jul 2008 03:17

FWIW, 'F' mag has a report on the LCH.

http://www.forceindia.net/cover4.asp

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 12 Jul 2008 09:12

Rahul M wrote:FWIW, 'F' mag has a report on the LCH.

http://www.forceindia.net/cover4.asp


FYI, that "capable of operating at 18000 feet" is actually the altitude region at which it can lift off the ground. Its actual flight altitudes are much higher and beyond the reach of any other dedicated attack helo. No other such attack helicopter in the world will be able to do that, not the Pakistanis and not even the Chinese for that matter. It will give a decisive edge to our mountain warfare capabilities.

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 12 Jul 2008 09:43

vivek_ahuja wrote:FYI, that "capable of operating at 18000 feet" is actually the altitude region at which it can lift off the ground. Its actual flight altitudes are much higher and beyond the reach of any other dedicated attack helo. No other such attack helicopter in the world will be able to do that, not the Pakistanis and not even the Chinese for that matter. It will give a decisive edge to our mountain warfare capabilities.

-Vivek

thanks, what do you think the service ceiling would be like ?
also upto what alt would it retain hover abiity ?
p.s. check mail.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 12 Jul 2008 10:37

Rahul M wrote:thanks, what do you think the service ceiling would be like ?
also up to what alt would it retain hover ability ?


Rahul,

Every country and every manufacturer defines Service ceiling with respect to helicopters in a different way. Some define it as the same as aircraft so that the climb rate must be maintained at around 0.5 meters/sec and the highest altitude at which the aircraft can do that is considered as its service ceiling. But the question then arises: at what weight of the system? The Normal TO weight? MTOW? or Operational Weights?

Another question which adds the combination of answers is whether in multi-engined helicopters whether one engine should be deactivated for these tests or is it both engines running? Maximum sustainable power or Emergency power?

As you can see, the combination of the above are aplenty. So each manufacturer tweaks these numbers to reflect better on their products.

So I wouldn't even try to put values here that people will try and compare brochure specifications with and come back and say "Hey, this site says this and that site says that" and so forth. All of these are true if we knew the context, which these sites will never mention.

So, what I will tell you is that I define helicopter performance into five criteria:
a) Flight performance (Forward flight at cruising speeds): defined at having full spec rate of climb and maximum sustainable power from both engines to carry the maximum payload for a given altitude.
b) Vertical Lift-off: defined at having a minimum rate of climb of 2.5 meters/sec (combat rate of climb) for a non-forward roll liftoff for maximum payload at a given altitude with calculations being made for OGE conditions.
c) Rolling-Take-off: defined same as above but for helicopters with landing wheels and availability of ALGs (Advanced Landing Grounds).
d) Hover IGE (In-Ground-Effect): calculated for a minimum rate of climb of 0.5 meters/sec for a vertical liftoff at maximum possible payload for a given altitude. This is your Hover ceiling by the way (as long as the design weight is capable of being lifted)
e) Hover OGE (Out-of-Ground-Effect): calculated same as for Hover IGE.

The last two are purely of academic use in the sense that a rate of climb of 0.5 meters/sec is meaningless to most Military forces. In reality, a rate of Climb of a minimum of 2.5 Meters/sec (~500ft/min) is required and is known as combat ceiling, and is the reference I try to follow when I do these calculations.

Now, coming to the issue of fuel/payload ratios, you need to fix that for a given range. So assuming we have a requirement of a combat radius (note: radius, not range) of around 100Km in the Aksai Chin region, and fixing the fuel for that, the LCH is capable of lifting (per my calculations) around 400Kg of weapons from an altitude of around 16000 feet under combat-ceiling conditions defined above and around 540 Kg of weapons from the same altitude for Hover OGE conditions.

These values are what remains after you remove the standard airframe weights, fuel, the weights of the flight crew, auxiliary weights, lubricants (which should not be ignored and can be substantial for heavier helicopters) and assuming a 10% reserve fuel for the said flight.

At 18000 feet, the LCH is capable of hovering with the above weapons load assuming that some fuel has been lost during the flight to that altitude. Very few peaks in the Aksai-Chin region are higher than 18500 feet, so I doubt the need to be hovering anywhere near them, but these are the engineering limits anyway.

But if the helicopter were cruising above the same region rather than hovering, then the LCH can in fact lift up to around 1000Kgs during forward flight for maximum rate of climb up to around 22000 feet and higher if you leave the condition of design ROC.

Note: Any suggestions to improve the above model are welcome. The results of the calculations can vary around 10-15% either way from actual data as far as I can tell. Sorry!

Image

p.s. check mail.


Yeah, I got it. Thanks. Will get back to you on that pretty soon.

-Vivek


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 13 Jul 2008 12:07

I wonder what is this obsession about LoH, Why not just order more Dhru? Is there something that LoH can do which Dhruv canot? Cost will also come down substancially if a massive order is given

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jul 2008 12:17

^^^
using a medium helo to do a light helo's job won't be economical AFA operating costs are concerned, to say nothing of the unit cost.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vivek_ahuja » 13 Jul 2008 12:37

Raj Malhotra wrote:I wonder what is this obsession about LoH, Why not just order more Dhru? Is there something that LoH can do which Dhruv canot? Cost will also come down substancially if a massive order is given


To be sure, the performance criteria that had previously been distinct for the LOH and the others has been blurred by the arrival of the Dhruv, but it is in no way capable of doing what a purpose built light scout helicopter can do at very high altitudes (Siachen, Laddakh etc). I am not talking about service ceilings, but ability to hover and land on tabletop helipads and then be able to lift off again. May not sound too impressive, but let me assure anybody who has a doubt, that it is.

Without diving into numbers, the Dhruv, because of its larger weight, is literally no more capable at those brutal flight regimes than a purpose built chopper, and costlier to operate too, both in terms of fuel consumptions and otherwise as mentioned by Rahul. This is for the 19000-21000 feet flight regimes. For higher altitudes near and beyond 24000 feet, the Dhruv can overfly but not hover, which is supposedly crucial for scouting missions. Bottomline: the Cheetah can.

And hopefully the selected LOH would do so too, if a good machine can get past the selection procedures of the IA.

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 13 Jul 2008 14:35


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jul 2008 19:25

snippet: Flt Lt Nachiketa (now Wing Cdr) flies An-32s out of jorhat nowadays. He is going to shift to Agra to fly the Il-78 soon. unfortunately can't fly fighters due to a back problem sustained during the incident and subsequent torture.
Source: bengali statesman.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jagan » 13 Jul 2008 23:48




I was left wondering what the big deal was about this. Fuel probes on Jaguars are not a new thing - and we have seen much classy retractable ones on the Jags

But finally the tube lit up in my head :D. . This post is making news because the probe was fitted to a two seater which is a first.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 14 Jul 2008 00:56

Rahul M wrote:snippet: Flt Lt Nachiketa (now Wing Cdr) flies An-32s out of jorhat nowadays. He is going to shift to Agra to fly the Il-78 soon. unfortunately can't fly fighters due to a back problem sustained during the incident and subsequent torture.
Source: bengali statesman.


God bless. Very good news.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby uddu » 14 Jul 2008 13:33

Kargil hero recalls war and Pakistan captivity
Link

JORHAT, ASSAM: The deafening roar of the aircraft flying overhead is his constant companion. It is also a daily reminder of Kargil war hero K. Nachiketa's painful severance from flying fighter planes.

"I really miss fighter aircraft now. I know I can't fly the MiG-27 anymore because of a backbone injury I sustained nine years ago," rues the soldier who was held as a prisoner of war (PoW) by Pakistan during the Kargil conflict in 1999.

Kambampati Nachiketa, the Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter pilot, had spent eight nightmarish days in Pakistani captivity and was later handed over to Indian authorities at the Wagah border following mounting pressure by the UN and international media.

"It was very tough. I can't describe that experience in words. That time I thought may be death is a simpler solution. But I am thankful to god that destiny was on my side," Wing Commander Nachiketa told IANS in an interview at IAF's Jorhat air-base in Assam.

"The incident made me tough and I now value my life better. It taught me never to repent in life," he said.

A 14-member team of journalists from Kolkata was taken to the northeast on a two-day visit to see the air defence operations of the Eastern Air Command (EAC) in the region. Jorhat is around 300 km from Assam's main city Guwahati.

"Generally, fighter pilots need to undergo several fitness tests. I am not in a physical condition to fly any fighter jet. But I think every (kind of) flying is equally challenging," the Kargil hero said.

India and Pakistan fought a bitter war in the Himalayan region of Kargil in 1999 after the former accused Pakistan army of backing armed insurgents who had taken over high-altitude posts on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC). Pakistan denied the accusation and has held that the insurgents were 'freedom fighters' acting on their own.

Nachiketa said the IAF had commenced air attacks on May 26, 1999 to destroy enemy positions with deadly 80 mm rockets in the Batalik sub-sector.

"On the next day (May 27), I'd gone on a mission to carry out strikes on an enemy concentration," he said.

Nachiketa, who was a flight lieutenant during the Kargil operations, also launched a second attack on the target using the aircraft's 30mm cannon. Firing in the rarefied atmosphere resulted in the ingestion of fumes into the engine air intake and subsequently, the engine flamed out.

"All attempts to re-ignite the engine failed and I had to eject at a place called Munthudalo - an enemy territory in a snow-capped mountain region. After landing, I saw myself surrounded by Pakistani troops. I exchanged fire using a Russian-made Makarov pistol. But I had to surrender as soon as I ran out of ammunition," he said.

The Pakistanis took Nachiketa into custody and he was thrown into the dark confines of a prison in Rawalpindi. Till June 3, 1999 he remained as a war prisoner in Pakistan.

"I underwent severe mental and physical torture there for three-four days. On the seventh day, they decided to hand me over to the Red Cross and I finally came to my motherland through Islamabad with the help of the Indian Embassy," he recalled.

Asked about the trauma his family went through, Nachiketa said: "I am a soldier and I am expected to undergo such kind of torture. But for my family, the experience was much higher than what I felt in the enemy hands."

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rakall » 14 Jul 2008 17:02

Rahul M wrote:snippet: Flt Lt Nachiketa (now Wing Cdr) flies An-32s out of jorhat nowadays. He is going to shift to Agra to fly the Il-78 soon. unfortunately can't fly fighters due to a back problem sustained during the incident and subsequent torture.
Source: bengali statesman.


Isnt he Sqn.Ldr now?


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 14 Jul 2008 18:43

rakall wrote:
Rahul M wrote:snippet: Flt Lt Nachiketa (now Wing Cdr) flies An-32s out of jorhat nowadays. He is going to shift to Agra to fly the Il-78 soon. unfortunately can't fly fighters due to a back problem sustained during the incident and subsequent torture.
Source: bengali statesman.


Isnt he Sqn.Ldr now?

Na, check uddu's article. (just after mine)

"It was very tough. I can't describe that experience in words. That time I thought may be death is a simpler solution. But I am thankful to god that destiny was on my side," Wing Commander Nachiketa told IANS in an interview at IAF's Jorhat air-base in Assam.


regards.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 14 Jul 2008 20:27



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