Indian Military Aviation

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Postby Rahul M » 20 May 2008 14:39

that's a really bad thing to say, vivek k.

You really don't know what that member has contributed to this forum, which is off course eons ahead of anything you have.

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Postby shiv » 20 May 2008 15:04

Vivek K wrote:
Igorr wrote:I loved how the information about Israeli delay provoked here unending debates on whether to blame Russia or not :mrgreen:
Enough jentlemen! Let come to the issue. Arnt interesting for you if Israel can manufacture the emitting modules of AESA byself? From the last information obvious it buys AESA modules from Ratheon. If so, how one can expect from Israel ToT for AESA (as many here hope)? Can the delay of Ratheon contractor be related to US unwilling or armtwisting? Is anybody interested to start even intelectual investigation about the issue?

There's been very little debate. Russia is playing games with some deals. Israel may be doing the same.

I get the feeling Igorr that you may be over-staying your welcome here! If you can understand what I mean!


Vivek K - I hope you understand that you are not entitled to make such a determination without facing some consequences yourself.
Last edited by shiv on 20 May 2008 21:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Igorr » 20 May 2008 16:59

Vivek K, you are just wrong about me. I'm not an 'Rosoboron' agent, nor other 'agent'. BTW, I worked in Israel for years, and still have there friends and even some relatives (if my sentence about Israel offended you). I only try to analyse what has happened with Falcon deal, and I bit wonder why for somebody here is more interesting to discuss russian 'natashas', than to understand what goes on this critical issue. It's not about whom to blame at all. The last article includes something, that I didnt know before, and I'm sure many BRFites didnt know it too. Look wt they wrote:

- OK, a logical question as follow what is this 'sourcing equipement' and who's the noted 'manufacturers in different countries'. In the next paragraph they answer wht it means:

'The aircraft will have a phased array radar mounted on a stationary radome — a circular piece of equipment mounted on the craft — made by US firm Raytheon'.

- For those who dont know Raytheon is a huge US corporation, one of the biggest stock emmitent in the world. For such a firm to be a subcontractor of Israel for only two radars (or some thousands MMIC Transmit / Receive (T/R) modules) is one piece of $hit between all its buiseness. I do not wonder at all if some a big order from Pentagon now hampers Raytheon's ardor to fulfill Indian contract on schedule.

Second possible cause for delay: by this step Raytheon plays its own game, hinting India who is the real manufacturer of the critical parts. Next time India 'should' think, if better to make a deal stright with Raytheon itself. Of course we need to know more about the deal before chosing between the hypotheses.

However, when speaking about Israel as a military supplyer, needed to say this country is exellent in engineering of new products from ready parts with broad using of Western (mostly American) technologies. So Israel developers allways have to offer much of conceptually innovative things for broad spectrum of situations, when others didnt even though about. WRT indigenous technologies, the Israeli position is however far from to be shining. If looking closer Israel cannot offer any fully independent platform. One example, Israel never developed any gas-turbine or even piston engine. So in the critical area of propulsion Israel is totally dependent from abroad. Even the strategic (for Israeli extend) Arrow system has a lot of critical American parts including propulsion. It may be not critical when speaking about off shelf purchase, but it can become annoying if one wants to achieve ToT. In consequence for the most of its best mil products Israel cannot supply full ToT just coz it has no.

If to believe what they wrote there, Israel has no its independent MMIC technology too. So those who have hoping for Israeli ToT for different AESAs need some caution. That's all...

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Postby prashanth » 20 May 2008 20:54

Thanks a lot for this post ,Igorr.
If it's true, then India will have to spend more money and perfect AESA tech indigenously.Of course, collaberation with foreign countries to save cost is a better idea. But that must be done soon or else we might lag behind in that field.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 21 May 2008 01:27

Surprise rebirth

When Ruag took over support of the Dornier 228 in 2003, few imagined it would lead to a resumption of its production

---------------------------

Crucial to the project's financial viability is the involvement of India's Hindustan Aeronautics, which as a risk-sharing partner will manufacture the fuselage, wing and empennage, with the first shipset to arrive by February 2009.

However, Ruag has stopped short of contracting HAL - which continues to licence-build 228s for the Indian armed forces - to carry out final assembly of the 228 New Generation in India.

"It's very simple - the market is asking for a 'German' product," says Neumann. "At the moment we would not be able to sell a completely Indian-manufactured aircraft. And HAL did not really want to certify themselves for manufacturing a complete aircraft under the European Aviation Safety Agency.

"It's part of our business plan to do final assembly, including outfitting. In the end, we are the OEM. Basically we pay HAL as a subcontractor and the share for them is about 20-25% of the work performed."

The final assembly work that will be performed in Germany represents about 15% of total workshare, he adds.

-----------

Compared with the last airframes manufactured in Germany, "some design work on secondary structures" is required to meet customer requirements for the aircraft's cabin interior. "We have started that already. The drawings are already in India. We are doing some design work on other parts," says Neumann.

HAL has begun the process of securing its first EASA production certificate and the European safety agency has already carried out its first pre-audit. "It was very positive. We also did our own audits to make sure we have the right partner. We want them to be certified and to have total responsibility for their parts. I am absolutely sure that they are able to that," says Neumann.

Link

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Postby Vivek K » 21 May 2008 02:37

shiv wrote:Vivek K - I hope you understand that you are not entitled to make such a determination without facing some consequences yourself.

Dr. Shiv, if that is how you feel then I would welcome the "consequences". I have reservations when either Igorr or TS Jones deride India (culture or products) in general on an "Indian forum". I would draw attention to the uncalled for remark by the poster in question on the Hawk issue and the current issue (Phalcon).

India is not a nation of sycophants that bow their heads to gori chamadi. We live by principles. I will continue to oppose posts by GCtypes that are anti-Indian. So if you wish to ban me, go ahead and do it now.

I have always believed that India needs to be self-reliant. Neither sub-servient to Russia nor to Israel or anybody else.
Last edited by Vivek K on 21 May 2008 02:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Vivek K » 21 May 2008 02:41

Rahul M wrote:that's a really bad thing to say, vivek k.

You really don't know what that member has contributed to this forum, which is off course eons ahead of anything you have.

Rahul, funny that for his contributions you choose to look the other way and ignore his shortcomings. Igorr has provided valuable support for India to buy Russian products. I have no problem with that and with his defence of the same. He has a right to do that. I don't think that to get that contribution from him, I would be sycophantic towards him. But of course that is my own opinion which is not binding on you or the forum.

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Postby Rahul M » 21 May 2008 03:30

what the hell are you talking about ??

Igorr feels that some BRFites apply different yardsticks to procurements from russia and from other countries.

You may agree with him or argue with him when you do not but you can't say
I get the feeling Igorr that you may be over-staying your welcome here! If you can understand what I mean!


Let me remind you:

......We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt.



To discover sycophancy in my previous post to you smells of deeply ingrained inferiority complex, to say the least.


oh, and btw, this does not mean anything.
Igorr has provided valuable support for India to buy Russian products.


I'm not sure Igorr is in a position to provide support to India for buying russian products.

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Postby kuldipchager » 21 May 2008 03:44

I blelieve India shuold buy the plane,Warship,Sub Russian.

When every one Refused to Sale sub to India,It was russia bring out

Foxtera Sub.Even that sub was not to western standerd but it was good

for INDIA.Is any country will use Veto for India Beside Russia.We can

devolp the high TETCH and updrade the system.How Will lease us N/Sub

NO ONE But Russia.When that manny Plus points how WE can say no

Russian System.

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Postby Rahul M » 21 May 2008 05:55

^^^^

on a high, dear ?? :D

my advise, get a spell check software ASAP and a cup of hot steaming black coffee !!

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Postby Igorr » 21 May 2008 15:39

With AL-55 seams OK. The news from yesterday:

[NPO] “Saturnâ€

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Postby khukri » 21 May 2008 19:56

Rahul M wrote:^^^^

on a high, dear ?? :D

my advise, get a spell check software ASAP and a cup of hot steaming black coffee !!


.......coffe no, valium maybe!

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Postby GuruPrabhu » 21 May 2008 20:11

kuldipchager wrote:I blelieve India shuold buy the plane,Warship,Sub Russian.

When every one Refused to Sale sub to India,It was russia bring out

Foxtera Sub.Even that sub was not to western standerd but it was good

for INDIA.Is any country will use Veto for India Beside Russia.We can

devolp the high TETCH and updrade the system.How Will lease us N/Sub

NO ONE But Russia.When that manny Plus points how WE can say no

Russian System.


In the Pakistan the me form the PAkistan, me think me write with the mistake in the spelling and me disrupt thread me not russian, not amirkhan, me from the Pakistan, me think no one notice , me think me is good standard troll but me is not, me want the ban..... please

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Postby NRao » 21 May 2008 20:15

The news from the AL-55(I) front is truly good ..... could have been better ..... but.

General contract to the development, the delivery and the subsequent license production in India of 250 engines AL -55[i] by cost on the order of $300 mln. was signed in August 2005 as a result of victory in the tender to the engine for HGT-36. Over the long term it is planned to construct in India up to 1 thousand engines. Indian side examines the possibility of AL -55[i] installation on the new light combat aircraft HGT-39, which is only in development.


That is even better news .......... -39. A twin engine AJT on the drawing board. The designers had requested permission for the 39 when they had sought it for the 36 and were declined. Grrrrrrrrrrrr

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Postby karan_mc » 21 May 2008 20:36

wasn't 39 was shelfed when iaf wanted to maintain fleet commonality in AJT and Fresh orders of Hawk was in pipe line ??

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Postby Kartik » 21 May 2008 21:33

now there is a chance that the Russians could gain from sales of AL-55Is on the HJT-39, so they would support development on that front. Considering that the follow-on order has not been placed as yet, and there could be hiccups in the Hawk procurement due to old parts, maybe HAL could try to get a leg in the door for the HJT-39.

But I'd hope that they just concentrate on getting the Tejas into service and leave the HJT-39 aside. There is much more at stake on the fighter front, than the AJT front.

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Postby kuldipchager » 21 May 2008 22:28

Mr.Rahul.M.
I do understand I have to check on spelling.I will Watch it.

GuruPrabhu, I don't know where you from,You can keep your Paki bulshit to you rear end.

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Postby shiv » 22 May 2008 05:09

Data point - I saw an IJT Sitara - painted in standard high visibility orange and white, taking off from HAL airport yesterday.

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Postby karan_mc » 22 May 2008 07:11

even drdo had planned trim down version of the lca ,i think ADA could have done a better job then Hal ,since Hal as been working on so many projects of late a new 39 will effect the lca project u can already see how Slow the work is on Lca front by Hal !!! single LSP in a year and still no new LSP as taken yet off when we are already in mid of 2008

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Postby sauravjha » 22 May 2008 11:38

All this Bull shit would have never happened if they had allowed the private sector to participate in defence in right earnest from the fifties itself. I have posted in the Artillery and armour thread a tank design , which was jointly being developed by Daimler-Benz/Porsche and the Tata's. needless to say , the program went nowehere.

Just to make a point , the Tata's had engineering expertise in the pre 2nd war era itself i.e in the form of TELCO. They could have easily been allowed to build on that and get into defense production. But no, "strategic sector" had to be reserved for govt enterprises built from scratch ( in some cases , not even set up) , even though there was a private player who already had some expertise.


Ditto goes for aviation. it was JRD who brought the concept of an "airline" to this country .He was also a keen "air defence enthusiast" , if it can be put that way. Given a free hand I am sure he and other industrialists of the time could have done quite a bit for aerospace.

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Postby Himanshu » 22 May 2008 12:21

Saurav.. this is not pointed at you.. This is for all of us..

I have observed a lot more times that people are more concerned about their past then concentrating/contemplating on the future.. are we out of ideas and actions guys.. that we always have to move ahead on the crutches of the past..

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Postby sauravjha » 22 May 2008 12:31

Point taken , that last post was indeed a venting of sorts , but it was also a pointer towards the future.


right now , HAL is quite clearly not in the best position to productionize whatever DRDO , ADA whoever comes up with . I think some serious private-public, JV what have you, needs to be considered for some of these projects.

even existing flagship projects need not be produced by HAL factories only. given the green signal , private majors can set up facilities that may churn out stuff. when you look at the numbers - 220 LCAs by what 2020 (best case scenario) hardly cuts it. and it's not surprising given the multitude of assignments that HAL has .

note: I am not getting into whether the LCA will be ready or not what form etc , I am assuming it will get done. I am talking about the post R&D phase only.
while it may seem cruel to some that I am asking for HAL's babies to be produced by others as well, i am sure some sort of arrangement can be made wherein HAL's Intellectual property investments in these projects is compensated (in terms of money of course) for and some of the production is outsourced to private agencies who have of course set up facilities of their own.

In the interests of national security we must ramp up numbers . The U.S is whatever it is not just because of "Hi-tech" but also because it deploys Hi-tech in as great a number if not more than it's "low-tech" enemies.
Last edited by sauravjha on 22 May 2008 12:40, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby kvraghav » 22 May 2008 12:38

I think it should not be difficult if pinaka could be manufactured by private companies like l&t and others,there should not be any problems or am i missing something??

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Postby Nitesh » 22 May 2008 12:45

kvraghav wrote:I think it should not be difficult if pinaka could be manufactured by private companies like l&t and others,there should not be any problems or am i missing something??


Pinaka is manufactured by OFB, correct me if I am wrong

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Postby kvraghav » 22 May 2008 12:47

Pinaka is manufactured by OFB, correct me if I am wrong

But i thought the pinaka system manufacturing for the latest order is between L&T and tatas.Someone please correct me.Think this is off topic here i suppose..

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Postby Himanshu » 22 May 2008 13:17

Pinaka order has been divided between L&T and Tata

Aviation is a big field.. there are lot of branches where we need expertise from the PSU as well as the Private.. Some of the quick areas that I can think of are..
-Aerodynamics
-Avionics
-Propulsion Systems
-EW systems
-Weapon Systems
-System Integration
-Production Technologies
-Management Services

etc.. Each can contribute in some form or the other.. not necessarily that moving out the production from PSU will solve the ills..

Just a start guys..

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Postby sauravjha » 22 May 2008 13:50

not all the production ,but a part of it , certainly.

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Postby A Sharma » 22 May 2008 18:23

IAF to reopen old air base in Ladakh

Indian Air Force plans to make operational an old air base in the high mountains of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir 43 years after it was shut down, a top IAF officer said today.

Air Officer Commanding in Chief Western Air Command Air Marshal P K Barbora said the Dawaltbaigh Oldi air base was set up in 1962 in the wake of Indo-China war and closed down in 1965.

"I hope to fly with AN-32 to Dawaltbaigh Oldi sometime next month and make it operational. We will do it next month," Barbora told reporters here.

"This will demonstrate to the world that we are capable of manning airfield at such a high altitude," he said.

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Postby saptarishi » 22 May 2008 18:45

MBDA, Safran Sign Missile, Seeker Cooperation Pact
By pierre tran


PARIS - MBDA CEO Antoine Bouvier and Safran CEO Jean-Paul Herteman said May 20 the two companies have signed a cooperation agreement on the Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM), a powered guided bomb, and to extend their work on infrared missile guidance systems.

The partnership pact, approved by the Délégation Générale pour l'Armement (DGA) procurement office, marked a step toward a consolidation of industrial capability, given tight defense budgets, and could be extended across Europe, Bouvier said.


The new collaborative venture could generate 100 million euros of added value over the next 10 years, Herteman said.

Britain and Italy also have IR seeker businesses that could be pooled, he said.

MBDA France and Safran's Sagem Défense Sécurité unit signed the cooperation deal May 14, the chief executives told journalists here. Under the agreement, MBDA will take charge of export marketing and act as prime contractor for future versions of the AASM, notably a laser-guided system and in-flight datalink.

The collaborative deal was intended to "optimize and increase the number of missiles and marketing potential," said Jean-Lin Fournereaux, CEO of Sagem DS.

Export prospects for the AASM include Canada, which has shown interest in arming its P-3 Orion aircraft, talks are advanced with Sweden, and the United Arab Emirates and other countries in the Persian Gulf, he said.

India is interested in an AASM kit for a 1,000 kg bomb. Other versions could be for 125 kg and 500 kg bombs.

A 2000 business plan identified potential export sales of 6,000 AASM units, Bouvier said. That was worth about 1 billion euros ($1.57 billion), Herteman said.

The agreement on cooperation over infrared seekers extends a 50-year relationship, which was formalized in a 1987 joint venture dubbed ADISM, which produced homing equipment for the Magic, Mistral and Mica missiles.

Future IR seeker work would include the light anti-ship missile to be developed with Britain, the modular combat missile, and an extended-range 300 km Block 2 version of the Aster weapon, suitable for ballistic missile defense.

Sagem, to the surprise of some, won an order in 2000 to build guidance kits to convert 250 kg "dumb bombs" into the AASM. The program ran into technical problems, forcing Safran to take total provisions of 130 million euros.

The company paid about 40 percent of development cost for the AASM, Herteman said. Safran wants the DGA to fund work on the laser-guided and datalink systems.

France has bought 750 AASM units for 250 kg bombs, which have been dropped in Afghanistan. The company expects further orders, to reach a planned buy of 3,000 units.


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =EUR&s=TOP

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Postby rrao » 22 May 2008 21:41

karan_mc wrote:even drdo had planned trim down version of the lca ,i think ADA could have done a better job then Hal ,since Hal as been working on so many projects of late a new 39 will effect the lca project u can already see how Slow the work is on Lca front by Hal !!! single LSP in a year and still no new LSP as taken yet off when we are already in mid of 2008


karan bhai! From TD1 to LSP2 each LCA is different! HAL is only a production agency for LCA. LSP2 is different form LSP1....initial hiccups!
All design related issues and deficiencies..courtesy ADA.

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Postby sanjaychoudhry » 22 May 2008 23:53

For all those curious about the Sitara IJT engine from Russia, it is running about one year behind schedule.

The Government has recently reviewed Advanced Light Helicopter – WSI, Light Combat Helicopter and Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) projects. There are no cost overruns in respect of these Projects.

There is a delay of about a year in Design & Development of the Engine of IJT programme which is under close monitoring. In respect of Design & Development programmes of HAL like ALH, ALH-WSI, IJT & LCH, these are result oriented and time bound.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh in a written reply to Shri Prabhunath Singh in Lok Sabha today.


http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=38111

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Postby Ardeshir » 23 May 2008 12:28

West Bengal: MIG-21 catches fire while landing, pilot safe
A MIG-21 aircraft caught fire while landing at the Bagdogra airport in Darjeeling district on Friday morning, but the pilot was safe.

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Postby Kartik » 23 May 2008 20:49

I wonder if that was a Bison that caught fire..

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Postby vina » 24 May 2008 12:59

Hmm.. What is going on in Bangalore today? . There is an SU-30 MKI in the sky doing what looks like an airshow over HAL and also a Air Force Dhruv.. Normally never get to see MKIs over Bangalore..

Are they putting on an airshow for some visiting dignitary ? ..The only one I can guess right now is the Sultan of Brunei. There were photos of him in the newspapers visiting the paratrooper training school and aiming a couple of assault rifle (one very impressive looking bull pup ..dont know which) and another H&K . Might have been for him.. my guess.

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Postby Shankar » 24 May 2008 17:30

maybe it just has some avionics upgrade??

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Postby A Sharma » 27 May 2008 18:10

Flight testing a unique profession : Naik

Flight testing is a unique profession that requires a mix of operational experience and a good foundation in advanced science and engineering, Air Marshal P V Naik Vice Chief Air Staff said.

Air Force Test Pilots School (AFTPS), which started to keep pace with India's growing aviation and aero space needs and requirements 35 years back, has produced 260 qualified test crew till date who are involved in many indigenous aircraft and system development programmes,he said in his address to test crew on graduation of 30th flight test course here today.

Apart from the Indian Air Force, the school caters to the requirements of the Army, Navy, DRDO and HAL. Test pilots and test engineers of the school are actively associated with many important prototype aircraft projects including Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and Intermediate Jet Traine (IJT).

The test pilots are playing a crucial role in aviation related R & D projects that have been undertaken by various defence R & D organisations as well as ISRO.

AFTPS is also forging ahead with Industry-Academia partnership to further enhance the quality of training. Towards this, Master of Technology course has been instituted with the Visveswaraya Technological University.

The school is also working with Bangalore University to institute Master of Sciences in Applied Flight Dynamics for pilots.

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Postby Kakkaji » 27 May 2008 20:37

Photo of Sarang team at the Berlin Air Show:

A helicopter of the Indian Air Force starts a test flight to prepare for the International Berlin Air Show ILA at Berlin Schoenefeld airport.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24838342/

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Postby Vick » 28 May 2008 06:06

[url=http://www.ila-berlin.de/ila2008/presse/galerie2008/IMG_9806%20HAL%20DHRUV%20Formation.jpg]Click Pic for bigger pic
Image[/url]

More here

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Postby Vick » 28 May 2008 06:10

[url=http://www.ila-berlin.de/ila2008/presse/galerie2008/IMG_0004%20HAL%20DHRUV.jpg]Click pic for bigger pic
Image[/url]

More here

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IAF relief flights to Myanmar and China

Postby maz » 28 May 2008 23:54

IAF’S LARGEST EVER AIRLIFT ACROSS THE BORDER RELIEF MISSIONS TO MYANMAR AND CHINA



New Delhi : Jyaistha 06

May 27, 2008



The Indian Air Force is presently carrying out the largest ever across the border disaster relief mission to Myanmar and China having conveyed over 277 tonnes of relief material in the aftermath of cyclone and severe earthquake respectively. Another IL-76 of IAF would be ferrying 28 tones to Chengdu in China tomorrow.



It may be recalled that cyclone Nargis struck south-east coast of Myanmar on 03 May 08 and caused wide spread damage to life and property. Also a severe earthquake measuring over 7.8 on Richter scale had struck the Sichuan province of China causing severe disaster. The ! Indian Air Force was called upon to carry relief supplies to these disaster affected areas.



For Mayanmar, the Disaster Management Crisis Group (DMCG) projected the requirement of carrying relief material on 06 May 08 and on 07 May 08 two IAF AN-32 were airborne for Yangon with supplies consisting of tents and medicine. Additional relief supplies were sent by IL-76 transport aircraft on 08, 10, 12 & 17 May 08. Another IL-76 has left for Yangon on 27 May 08.



For Myanmar IAF has airlifted 125.5 tonnes of relief material load includes medicines, tents, ready to eat meals & 47 personnel.



For China, the DMCG projected the requirement on 16 May 08 and IAF had delivered the load once again on 17 May 08 itself consisting of tentage, blankets & medicines. Thereafter relief supplies were sent on 19th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, & 24th May 08. IAF has so far airlifted 152 tones of relief materials including medicines, tents, sleeping bags, blankets and ready to eat meals.


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