Su-30: News and Discussion

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kmc_chacko
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby kmc_chacko » 13 Feb 2011 09:15

In May 2010, there was a news of Super 30 i.e., upgrading Su-30 MKI

The IAF has begun the 'Super 30' project to upgrade its Sukhoi-30MKI fighters with new radars, mission computers, electronic warfare systems and Brahmos missiles. Recently cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security, the Sukhoi design bureau will start upgrading two prototypes in Moscow this year.

The first two Super 30s will fly into India in 2012 after which upgrades will be incorporated into the last batch of 40 Sukhois being licence-built at HAL, Nasik, from 2015. The IAF operates around 100 Su-30mkis and will add another 170 in the next decade.


http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... ghter.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/libra ... osti01.htm
http://en.rian.ru/world/20100530/159217594.html

did we signed it or still under negotiation

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 15 Feb 2011 02:14

Update on PAK-FA AESA and Interesting TiT-Bit on MKI-Bars upgrade
http://i74.servimg.com/u/f74/15/54/62/79/aesa10.jpg

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Arya Sumantra » 15 Feb 2011 08:17

Anujan wrote:To add to the discussion about AESA radar.

Basically by shifting the phase of waves, one can be used to cancel the other. Think of it as a "u" shape and "n" shape mixing and canceling out each other. Now what does that mean? By shifting phase slightly, you can produce a narrow "pencil" of beam from a wide dish. So the waves instead of spreading out, go out in a pencil.

This has an advantage that the "pencil" can be rapidly moved across the sky and when not illuminated, a target cannot detect the radar.


Is that how a directional data link also works ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby jagga » 25 Feb 2011 00:39

Dont know if this video has been posted before.
SU-30 MKI vertical take off

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 25 Feb 2011 01:25

^^
Thanks a lot for sharing that. That was truly awesome!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 25 Feb 2011 09:18

jagga wrote:Dont know if this video has been posted before.
SU-30 MKI vertical take off


Sorry - but there was not even a single instance of any of those Su-30s taking off and going vertical - so the title is misleading. The only interesting thing to me is that the Su-30 afterburner comes on in 3 (or maybe 4) steps showing that the person who pointed out that the AB could be in steps was right and taught me something.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby jai » 25 Feb 2011 11:22

rakall wrote:
rakall wrote:
44 Su-30 MKIs are being modified with stronger structure (part of batch at HAL Nasik) for Brahmos carriage, first one is in Russia already. Reported earlier.


It will be much more than that..

They will be wired as special delivery platforms !!! Ofcourse, Brahmos will be one parcel of the special delivery.. I believe there will be other Valentine gifts slated for special speedpost delivery from this special batch...

If we can take things one step forward - imagine a 300km+ range standoff distance delivery of a strategic payload with a cruise missile that is least vulnerable to interception.


Would be awesome !

What I am wondering though, is that why only 40.....can understand these must be the SF command ones but we still have about 170 left to induct in the coming years...they all should get the AESA's and Brahmos....and then the already inducted ones should be retrofitted.....but guess MOD is also taking one step at a time !

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby akshay » 01 Mar 2011 13:21

jai wrote:What I am wondering though, is that why only 40.....can understand these must be the SF command ones but we still have about 170 left to induct in the coming years...they all should get the AESA's and Brahmos....and then the already inducted ones should be retrofitted.....but guess MOD is also taking one step at a time !


Not required,Firstly its a costly time consuming upgrade, secondly adversaries do not have 200 odd ships to fire upon. I dont know about the AESA upgrade though considering that M29 gone for PESA upgrade. I think India will allow Russian AESA to mature and come online with FGFA which makes perfect sense.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Mar 2011 13:28

Akshay, it is more than likely that Air Launched Brahmos will used against Land based targets and not just in an anti-shipping role. I guess there will be some aerodynamic comprimises to be made like F15-C vs E which is why IAF is restricting the no. to 40. SUrely strengthening undercarraige will add extra weight.


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 01 Mar 2011 15:04


From the above link:
Under “Super -30” Project, Su 30MKI will get Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE Active Electronically Scanned Array AESA radars along with new onboard mission computers, electronic warfare systems and new Russian BVR Missiles rumored to be Novator K-100 missile also known has “AWCS Killer” and also India’s own Astra BVR Missile .

This is surprising. I would have thought that they would wait for Tikhomirov's NIIP AESA variant being developed for PAK-FA. Anyways, may be after the engine change during MLU?

Also, good to know about K-100. That was in talks for a long time now.
Not to mention the Astra integration! That would mean that ASTRA would be inducted not long after 2013 (if not a little earlier). That is very good news.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby oleonau » 01 Mar 2011 20:15


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Mar 2011 20:22

I read somewhere the SU30/27 cannot mount the NIIP AESA radar (even though their noses have more space than pakfa) because it demands more power. so generator and power system would need beefing up and more powerful engines to drive that.
since re-engining upto a more powerful spec AL31 variant is not on the cards , the su30mki cannot use the pakfa radar (which is likely a few yrs away from IOC). I think they will go EDE rather than EPE route for AL31 in MLU.

but the Su35BM which has most powerful AL31 model might be able to 'drive' the NIIP AESA and perhaps is the testbed.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 03 Mar 2011 21:44

Zhuk ASE AESA - Scaling the Zhuk AE for the Flanker

One of the stated intentions of Phazotron is to scale up the Zhuk AE for the Flanker, in the manner of the Zhuk-27 and Zhuk-MSFE variants, using a 0.98 metre diameter aperture.

If we assume that such a scaled up design uses exactly the same quad module technology as the Zhuk AE does, and an enlarged cooling plate and mounting frame, then the achievable performance will scale with the aperture size. For the 0.98 m antenna outside diameter, assuming a similar unused area around the emitter array, the total usable aperture diameter will be around 0.8 metres, and the element count will sit at around 1160. If we assume tighter placement and a 1.1 metre antenna outside diameter, as used in the Pero PESA, then the total usable aperture diameter will be around 0.95 metres, and the element count will sit at around 1630, or about the same as the Zhuk-MSFE PESA design.

With a peak power rating of 10 Watts/channel the latter yields a peak power of the order of 16.3 kW which results in a radar which outperforms the N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-71 and APG-79 in raw power aperture performance. Such a radar could reach IOC around 2010 if it is funded properly, in step with the timelines for the NIIP Irbis E.

If Phazotron improve the TR channel power rating as they have stated an intent to do, then the results bear some careful consideration. Tabulating options yields some interesting results.




Estimated detection range chart for variants of the Zhuk ASE AESA equipped with a range of Transmit Receive Module power ratings per channel. The detection range performance of the 10 and 12 Watt module equipped Zhuk ASE is similar to the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis-E hybrid ESA in the Su-35BM/Su-35-1, and much superior to the N011M BARS. The performance of Zhuk ASE if equipped with modules rated above 15 Watts is superior to the Irbis E. Receiver noise figure and effective aperture area are assumed to be similar. N011M performance is based on parametric data and is better than NIIP cited figures (Author).

Notional Zhuk ASE Estimated Power Aperture: ~1630 TR channels; 0.95 meter aperture diameter; NF=3.5 dB

TR Channel Peak Power [W]
Radar Ave Power [kW] Radar Peak Power [kW]
PAPEAK [dBWm2]
10.0
8.15
16.3 40.6

12.0
10.0
20.0
41.5

15.0
12.25
24.5
42.4

20.0
16.3
32.6
43.6

25.0
20.4
40.8
44.6



Notional Zhuk ASE: Radars/Fighters Power Aperture Comparison

TR Channel Peak Power [W] Radars Outperformed by Zhuk ASE Fighter Types Equipped

10.0 N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF

12.0 N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
15.0 N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
20.0 N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
25.0 N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF


Once Phazotron have engineered a Zhuk ASE with ~1630 TR Channels, then scaling up power aperture performance is only a matter of changing the TR Module design to use more powerful transistors, and improving the per module heat transfer performance in the AESA. Both of the latter represent fairly low risk incremental design changes.

Much of the imperative in the US to pursue high density tiled packaging was the result of a high demand for reduced AESA mass production costs, good structural mode RCS performance, and tight element spacing to maximise bandwidth, so as to expand the functions the AESAs could perform and to maximise LPI capability via frequency agility. It is not entirely clear that these would be compelling near term motives for Russia's industry - they will become such as work on the avionics for the PAK-FA accelerates.

There can be absolutely no doubt that Phazotron will aggressively market the Zhuk ASE as an upgrade package into the established Flanker market, which could be as large as 500 aircraft in China alone.



http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE- ... html#Video
zhuk-ase seems the one for super-30

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby kmc_chacko » 03 Mar 2011 23:19

is upgrading programme Super Su-30 is a MLU for Su-30

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 03 Mar 2011 23:29

kmc_chacko wrote:is upgrading programme Super Su-30 is a MLU for Su-30

Its not an MLU. Su-30MKIs could hardly be said to have reached that stage. Super-30 is basically for a batch of 40 MKIs that would be produced 2013 onwards. However, the benefits of Super-30 program (except for the Brahmos carrying capability) will later be carried over to the older MKIs.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 04 Mar 2011 13:03

Gaur wrote:
kmc_chacko wrote:is upgrading programme Super Su-30 is a MLU for Su-30

Its not an MLU. Su-30MKIs could hardly be said to have reached that stage. Super-30 is basically for a batch of 40 MKIs that would be produced 2013 onwards. However, the benefits of Super-30 program (except for the Brahmos carrying capability) will later be carried over to the older MKIs.

40 plus 42 more that are to be ordered, will also get SUPER-30
LIST INCLUDES
1.ZHUK-ASE AESA
2.TOPOWL/TOPSIGHT-K HMS
3.newer SAMTEL DISPLAYS[HUD AND HDD]
4.BRAHMOS and NIRBHAY carrying capacity
5.ASTRA MK2,,METEOR OR RVV-SD
6.newer ECM suite
7.newer IRST.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Mar 2011 13:12

5. shouldnt it be astra Mk1?
Python5 would also be a good addition to replace the R73 and doesnt need much rework to integrate. infact P5 would be a great add for Tejas, M2k and Mig29 fleet too, and MRCA. its probably at par or better than AIM9X and better than all the rest like iris-t, asraam, magic, r73.... and its fins looks like more agile than aim9x.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 04 Mar 2011 14:12

saptarishi,
You mean that 82 MKIs will get Brahmos carrying capacity? That is surprising news to me. My understanding was that only 40 will get Brahmos integration while the other MKIs will get the rest of the package minus Brahmos. The figure may have be 44 but certainly not more than that.
I hope I am not being too lazy, but can you please provide a link detailing the 82 MKIs figure?
Thanks.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 06 Mar 2011 15:27

Russia spat delays BrahMos air version

Friction between the two countries mainly stems from the redesigning of the Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft to make it capable of launching a 300-kg BrahMos supersonic missile from the air.
....
When asked whether “is it something like a hundred crores”, pat came the reply: “Many, many hundred crores!”
But more than the amount it’s the Russian style of business that has irked Indian defence scientists. “They are preventing us from undertaking the job, citing a clause in the transfer of technology pact,” said a source. “They won’t do it for a reasonable amount and aren’t allowing us to do it either.”
....
The Russian reaction to the DRDO’s move is still awaited. “Well, they normally engage us in these who-will-blink-first games,” added the source. “But this time we wanted to clearly communicate that we can’t be fatigued out of this...”

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Mar 2011 16:38

^^^ Russian ToT = you cannot modify the plane. Wow!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 06 Mar 2011 17:17

Reminds me of the Jaguar hydraulic incident where India developed a modification.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... aguar.html

Some interesting features of the Jaguar contract and licence agreement signed in 1978 by Government of India with the BAe emerged. The gist without actual legal terminology is given below: Operator (India) may introduce modifications on their own aircraft, the details of which are to be communicated to BAe. If we (BAe) have any technical observations, we will inform you within two months. In any case, the introduction of modification is at your own risk and cost.

The thoroughness with which BAe drew up contracts is to be admired. Hopefully our experts have learnt to be as thorough.


Atleast they allowed us to modify the aircraft.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 06 Mar 2011 17:44

[quote="RKumar"]Russia spat delays BrahMos air version

The russians are now in the business of doing business, the old days of friendship are gone and only a whiff of the perfume reminds us of the days gone by. I dont see India charting a completely non-aligned policy, so its likely we will move into ameerkhans hands. Russia will sell us stuff that no one else will sell, but demand a full price. In the future, you can expect that they will threaten us by proposing to sell the PAKFA to the Chinese, this will only drive us further into Unkil's arms. We can checkmate russkies and the US, if we sign all the ameerkhan's agreements, but continue giving business to russians.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 06 Mar 2011 17:46

RKumar wrote:Russia spat delays BrahMos air version

Friction between the two countries mainly stems from the redesigning of the Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft to make it capable of launching a 300-kg BrahMos supersonic missile from the air.
....



Told you. Not even the FGFA will be enough. Next stop, for India, should be the AMCA.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 06 Mar 2011 18:35

Dear Sirs, it is ample clear to me .... but question is do our armed forces wants to understand...it is no longer USSR it is cash strapped Russia, who want to do business with few dirty tricks like UK/US and wants blood money anyway they can get.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 06 Mar 2011 18:42

THIS is NOT a lack of understanding on the part of ANY Indian.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 06 Mar 2011 18:48

I have no doubt about that ... this is why I used word WANTS as there are many other vested interests.... with this I rest my case. :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Multatuli » 06 Mar 2011 18:57

NRao wrote :

Told you. Not even the FGFA will be enough. Next stop, for India, should be the AMCA.



Stupid Russian behaviour. It's because of India that the Su-30 is so successful, it's like biting the hand that feeds you. I can only hope that the IAF, MoD and the Indians who consider Russia as God learn something from this latest Russian blackmail, but I doubt they will ever learn: the conditioning/programming is to deeply embedded and there are financial incentives as well.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 06 Mar 2011 19:14




That is, assuming the news report itself is not planted by some party wanting to muddy the waters in some way. There are enough Indians in India willing to sell the country down. We have seen two things tie and again wrt to news reports about India and Russia.
1) Delays
2) Spats about money

What is different here?

There was a news item from a decade ago saying how the supply of Su-30s was delayed by some spat. Spats will always occur. They have to be dealt with as part of the course.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Baldev » 06 Mar 2011 19:19

Multatuli wrote:
NRao wrote :

Told you. Not even the FGFA will be enough. Next stop, for India, should be the AMCA.



Stupid Russian behaviour. It's because of India that the Su-30 is so successful, it's like biting the hand that feeds you. I can only hope that the IAF, MoD and the Indians who consider Russia as God learn something from this latest Russian blackmail, but I doubt they will ever learn: the conditioning/programming is to deeply embedded and there are financial incentives as well.
there is no one who doesn't open big mouth whether its m2000 upgrade,scorpene,or HAL ULH gearbox design.

and whats the promise by any vendor for mrca that its value would not increase in between??

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Multatuli » 06 Mar 2011 20:22

I am under no illusion as to the motives of the French: they are only in it for the money. That's why I am dead set against the purchase of the Rafale: the Indian taxpayer will end up paying through the nose.

The French in particular are greedy and unlike Russia they don't share any tech that enhances our strategic capabilities.

Shiv wrote:

That is, assuming the news report itself is not planted by some party wanting to muddy the waters in some way. There are enough Indians in India willing to sell the country down. We have seen two things tie and again wrt to news reports about India and Russia.
1) Delays
2) Spats about money




That's true, lot's of players with cash would like to ruin the Indo-Russian relation.
Last edited by Multatuli on 06 Mar 2011 20:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Sid » 06 Mar 2011 20:24

Baldev wrote:there is no one who doesn't open big mouth whether its m2000 upgrade,scorpene,or HAL ULH gearbox design.

and whats the promise by any vendor for mrca that its value would not increase in between??


Agree with Baldev. It's not just the Russians. Every arms dealer try to milk mother India (because we have milk).

Scorpion/HAWK AJT deal are well known to everyone, but we shamelessly accepted those deals.

Strategic weapons can only be acquired with blood money (and some loss of dignity).

Try asking French for integrating Brahmos on Rafael and see how much they ask :mrgreen:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 06 Mar 2011 20:37

It is beyond having milk.

They all KNOW that India has a rather desperate need for these. And, are even perhaps aware that this just may be their last chance to get so much monies - India should be fairly close to being independent in most aspects.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 06 Mar 2011 22:48

BrahMos is a good missile ,but we have seen Russians dragging their Yakhont when ever their is possibility of a export , Indonesia is a prime example where BrahMos lost out, even in PAk-FA and FGFA case Russia will try to convenience buyers to go for all Russian Fighter to that they don't have to pay royalties to Indian companies , HAL and India made some money in MKM deal with Malaysia since they preferred India over Russia due to their poor experience with Russian MiG 29.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Baldev » 06 Mar 2011 22:52

karan_mc wrote:BrahMos is a good missile ,but we have seen Russians dragging their Yakhont when ever their is possibility of a export , Indonesia is a prime example where BrahMos lost out, even in PAk-FA and FGFA case Russia will try to convenience buyers to go for all Russian Fighter to that they don't have to pay royalties to Indian companies , HAL and India made some money in MKM deal with Malaysia since they preferred India over Russia due to their poor experience with Russian MiG 29.
brahmos is all russian too,but russian wants to eat all the cake alone not to involve india

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 06 Mar 2011 23:24

We may also recall that the Rosoboronexport would not let the IAF use Indian sourced tires on the SU30MKI..ToT and Russian friends my toe.

FWIW, both Boeing and LM would never do this. For one thing you could sue them in US courts.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby John » 07 Mar 2011 00:26

Brahmos is unlikely to ever find a export customer, missiles especially Ashm are sold as package with the platform itself. Unless our SYs can design or manufacture naval vessels for exports it is never going happen, russians are never going to market Brahmos in any vessel they export.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 07 Mar 2011 00:42

Multatuli wrote:I am under no illusion as to the motives of the French: they are only in it for the money. That's why I am dead set against the purchase of the Rafale: the Indian taxpayer will end up paying through the nose.

The French in particular are greedy and unlike Russia they don't share any tech that enhances our strategic capabilities.

Just imagine Typhoon with 4 countries playing hardball like this

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Patrick Cusack » 07 Mar 2011 00:43

It is really surprising that a one time ally who India secretly provided food for has turned to back stabbing - what happened?
How can a relationship so strong come down. There was so much of goodwill!!!

Guess that generation is no longer around - in view of this India must review all the on going projects!!!!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 07 Mar 2011 01:52

Who is not in for money? Anyone asked how much they are asking, and for how much we want this be done?

India has to realize spending more money on DRDO projects even it gets delayed is million times more worth than corruption ridden imports, and having full of choke points. We have to see the enemies within who are here only to make money by selling to IAF, and would like deny any home grown opportunity to succeed.

We have no idea what all these DDMs talk and say, and where and what information they get. Those giving these information out must be charged as guilty as well if found wrong.


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