Su-30: News and Discussion

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SaiK
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Sep 2011 20:06

Actually it does not take billions to have an effective stealth aircraft.. it all depends on the technology and techniques/methods they employ for stealth.

objective : disappear from enemy radar

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 19 Sep 2011 07:07

x-posting

BrahMos airborne launcher prototype undergoing tests

The BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Limited (BATL) has been contracted to build five prototype airborne launchers of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile with its first flight test on a Su-30 MKI aircraft slated to take place by the end of 2012.

Designed by BrahMos engineers and approved by the Sukhoi Design Bureau, original makers of Sukhoi, the launcher was indigenously developed by BATL, A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive Officer of Indo-Russian BrahMos Aerospace, told The Hindu over telephone.

Fabricated using high strength aluminium, the 6-metre-long airborne launcher — the largest in the world — weighs 350 kg.

“The first prototype is undergoing various tests in Hyderabad. Four more prototypes will be fabricated at BATL with tests conducted in a staggered fashion,” Mr. Pillai said.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 19 Sep 2011 10:01

Pratyush wrote:How many billions will the stealth upgrade cost for the SU 30.


You mean how many billions INDIA will have to pay to get "stealth technology" from Rodina ?

K

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 19 Sep 2011 10:02

shiv wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote: The article would imply that all HAL does is bolt on the wings after the planes are unloaded from the An-124. Is that what HAL is actually doing?

Well guess where the bolts are made?


Indian, obviuosly

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby prithvi » 19 Sep 2011 10:06

Kersi D wrote:Well guess where the bolts are made?


Indian, obviuosly

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:[/quote]

I doubt

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Sep 2011 10:16

rohitvats wrote:
chetak wrote: <SNIP>

Not in the IN mandate.

Will tread very painfully on some already sensitive toes :wink:


In terms of IAF versus IN mandate? Or does the GOI does not want to send out too strong a message with such a development?

Thanks.


rohitvats ji, pliss to forgive.

Sorry for the late reply but saw it just now. :evil:

There was a big turf battle some decades ago that left many bruised egos and strong institutional memories.

There was a victor and inevitably a loser, in terms of mandate.

Rest can be covered in some BR meet. :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 23 Sep 2011 10:42


rohitvats
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 23 Sep 2011 13:24

chetak wrote:
rohitvats ji, pliss to forgive.

Sorry for the late reply but saw it just now. :evil:

There was a big turf battle some decades ago that left many bruised egos and strong institutional memories.

There was a victor and inevitably a loser, in terms of mandate.

Rest can be covered in some BR meet. :)


Thanks for the reply. Much appreciated.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby member_19747 » 23 Sep 2011 15:28

Will the IAF purchase More Su-30MKI

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2011 15:53



Very interesting, thanks.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 23 Sep 2011 16:33

Karan M wrote:


Very interesting, thanks.


I said a while ago that 'Stealth SU-30MKIs' would suddenly appear out of the woodwork right about now. When they open the commercial bids on MMRCA in mid October, there is going to be sticker shock of epic proportions.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 23 Sep 2011 17:10

Karan M wrote:


Very interesting, thanks.


Where have you been, hainji?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vipul » 24 Sep 2011 00:17

Super Sukhois to give India a generation leap.

India is poised to get fifth generation aircraft sooner than expected. While an Indo-Russian programme to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft is already under way, Russia has agreed to provide India with an advanced version of the Sukhoi-30MKI, which boasts of fifth generation capabilities and stealth features.

The Indian Air Force, which currently has over 100 Sukhoi MKIs, has placed an order with Russia for about 280-300 aircraft, which are likely to come in the form of the Super Sukhois.

This development is expected to provide India a considerable edge over Pakistan. In January 2011, China had agreed to deliver its J-20 fifth generation fighter – touted to be the world’s most advanced fighter aircraft — to Pakistan. (DDM)

The timeframe of the delivery of the Super Sukhois has not been specified, but India plans to deploy four squadrons of the advanced aircraftin the northeastern sector by 2015.

The Super Sukhoi has come about after India decided to get rid of some of its outdated combat jets and replace them with superior ones. As part of that, India decided to return 18 Sukhoi-30K aircraft to Russia and replace them with the advanced Sukhoi-30MKI, which is being christened as “Super Sukhoi” that boasts of fifth generation features.

The 18 Sukhoi-30Ks were part of the first production batch.According to a US-based Defense Update report, Russia, the manufacturer of the aircraft, has agreed to replace the aircraft by production versions of the advanced Su-30MKI (the Super Sukhoi), in a ‘buyback’ transaction as the Su-30K were found to have downgraded avionics as compared with the advanced Su-30MKI aircraft.

Further, the aircraft, of which 10 have already been sent back (the remaining eight by November), would be inducted into the Belarusian Air Force.

The Super Sukhoi, apart from having a new cockpit, has upgraded radars and will also be equipped with the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

Commenting on the decision to return the older aircraft, Air Commodore (Retd) Jasjit Singh, director, New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), told DNA that India had been asking for the Sukhoi-30K to be replaced for sometime now and that the decision to go in for the upgraded version of the aircraft is a step in the right direction.

“The Sukhoi-30K were manufactured and delivered to India in the mid-1990s and it is an aging aircraft. The IAF may have found it to be cost-effective to send back the aircraft instead of upgrading it on par with the latest model. Besides the upgrades would have taken three-four years, which is not logical with a fleet of aircraft which has already completed half its lifespan,” said Singh.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 24 Sep 2011 00:20

^^ Rohitvats, Sorry didnt get it?

What I found interesting was

#1. The reference to the replacement Sukhois being the Super 30's
#2. That these would be deployed in NE to counter any possible J-20. This tells us both that the PLAAF has overtaken the PAF in the IAFs threat perception (as it should), and also the Super 30 will be potent enough to even take on the J-20 (for all the hype around it).

Given what the Super 30 may come with it, I wouldn't be surprised. I wonder though if they will put uprated engines in it. I am not a fan of all Super 30's being made Brahmos compatible. Extra weight will affect TWR at high payloads.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby hnair » 24 Sep 2011 03:56

Ninja-Rambhas..... neato!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Sep 2011 06:40

^^^portends induction of a large number of SU30s and Super Sukhois, also a hedge to delays if any with PAKFA/FGFAs. Hope this does not impact AMCA. With the advent of Super SUs would MMRCA be capped at 126?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 Sep 2011 07:17

The Super MKI is natural progression. A timely one too. I do not think it will interfere with the MMRCA. In fact it may be wise to go with the EF which seems to have growth potential (does the Rafale have that too?).

But, the MCA - do not know. Seems India does not have the technologies to meet the speed at which the demands are coming down. Will the Super MKI give it more breathing space?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 24 Sep 2011 14:57

Karan M wrote:^^ Rohitvats, Sorry didnt get it?

<SNIP>


As in, you've been absent from BRF for quite some time.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vashishtha » 24 Sep 2011 14:58

a bit confused.. The super sukhois order is different than the original su 30 mki order or is it that the remaining su 30 mki's to be delivered will be converted to super sukhoi plus some more?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Sep 2011 17:28

^^^IMVHO 40 number order of SU30 placed recently is to be delivered in Super Sukhoi config, also the replacement of original 18 SU30Ks is also to be in super config. Rest of it might not be in Super config but MKIs only as per current tranche level config. Basically a retrofit of capabilities which hiave evolved fron the PAKFA project.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 24 Sep 2011 17:37

Rohitvats, work, and more work. Been very caught up and miss the forum.

Vashishtha wrote:a bit confused.. The super sukhois order is different than the original su 30 mki order or is it that the remaining su 30 mki's to be delivered will be converted to super sukhoi plus some more?


Per reports, the plan is to now gradually shift production to the Super 30 variant. The improvements are mostly to the avionics & weaponry, so HAL can actually upgrade itself to match these.
The Super 30 started off as a MLU to be done in 2 phases. As I noted once before the rapid developments in the region re: PLAAF especially have meant the IAF has been upgrading its requirements day in & night out. The mention of 4 Super 30 squadrons in the NE are yet another indication.

BTW, as is the LCA MK2 - speaking to a senior user perspective person recently, I brought up the point that why the IAF was so keen on a MK2 with a higher thrust engine when the LCA MK1 itself outperformed the Bison & furthermore, was competitive against the bulk of the PAF fleet. He agreed and his point made was that the IAF was looking for the "best" as it expected to face more from the PLAAF & not just the PAF and hence expected every bit of payload, range that could be obtained from any airframe! He also agreed that evaluations of the LCA so far have been extremely positive - "the pilots love it" and a Ge414 would make it a formidable plane when compared to "anything" in the IAF inventory. This is also the reason why more & more is being packed into the plane, including a state of the art RWJ suite, which outperforms all jammers seen so far on IAF planes. BTW DARE et als "challenge" now is that the users are satisfied with their products and are asking for more and more constantly!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 Sep 2011 17:47

Well, that is some more good news. At least movement in the right direction.

Any findings on SEAD thinking in the AF? Heard about the LSP-1(???) being fitted with electronics, etc. Does it mean a dedicated plane - would be nice.

(Sorry, just realised this is the MKI thread. Respond in the LCA thread please.)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 24 Sep 2011 21:08

NRao, IAF is looking at both SEAD (Suppression) & Destruction (DEAD).

They already have a variety of munitions and force multipliers that can enable them to achieve these aims. The LCA BTW is our design and hence is more amenable to modification than imports, despite the space constraints. You must have heard of extra space being provisioned in MK2. That is in part because IAF has kept asking for more & more on MK1 - I can reasonably say that today's MK1 has at best, a resemblance to the LCA as originally envisaged when I first had a long chat with some ADA/IAF guys in 1995. This plane is a different beast and the MK2 will add some powerful muscle, in terms of extra thrust. Now, reason why LCA or tomorrow, an AMCA will be better for all sorts of roles is because we control the inner systems and design it accordingly to our needs. The FGFA may be different, but the MiGs are so packed with legacy electronics, that EMI/EMC are a challenge as is repositioning critical systems. Another issue is of tolerance. The Russians had a higher tolerance in terms of Voltages etc for some of their legacy gear. Todays kit, if it exceeds a threshold, may even reboot if not stop working. Its a challenge and a pain. Which is what makes our upgrades so remarkable, and in contrast to some foreign OEMs, our scientists so modest. I actually saw some people shocked when it was told to them that the Indian side did not rip out all existing electronics and replace completely with new systems, but kept both! Its one thing to do all this on a ship - where space constraints are not as critical - and WEESE of the Navy has done wonders working with BEL & DRDO. But airborne systems, with very tightly packed equipment bays are a big challenge.

Anyways, I am rambling.
To answer your question, what the IAF is now looking for & working towards is true NCW - Net Centric Warfare, with the attendant advantage of the sensor to shooter loop shortened as much as possible. The sensors will act as the "eyes" - these could include everything from fighters (your Sukhois, LCAs, MMRCAs etc, with additional pods or onboard kits alone) - datalinking this data amongst each other & to airborne battle management platforms. These are your Phalcons & the DRDO AEW&C (check out the sensor fit on this aircraft and its astonishing, no pocket AWACs this). These in turn will route the data to GES (Ground Exploitation Systems). The GES links back to assorted ADCRCs (Air Defence Control & Reporting Centers) which are linked to regional nodes of the IACCS (Integrated Air Command & Control System) which keeps track of everything from mission tasking to airspace deconfliction. Furthermore, the civilian radar & controlling environment is being integrated with the IAF. The latter mostly depends on secondary radars (transponders) but there is more and more a realization that primary radars are required as well.

Overall, the IAF does have a vision and is working towards it. The steps being made by DRDO, HAL, ADA are now getting attention from the services. And a common refrain is "more". Its all about products and product families. The DRDO is now becoming adept at reconfiguring products for more and more applications by repackaging them for specific requirements. Furthermore, a lot of military personnel have joined these labs and DPSUs and are doing yeoman service in bringing everyone on the same page. Things are not perfect but they are significantly better from the partisan finger pointing we used to see earlier.

The next "revolution" has to be in PGMs. Lets await and see.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 24 Sep 2011 22:00

That is fine but why not replace the 21s with Mk1 in some numbers now? Mk2 when it comes will add to the muscle. What is the saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 24 Sep 2011 22:33

^^ Agreed. But the IAF does what it will. What I can say however, is that the MK2 is coming about, the IAF needs it and those who fly the MK1 love it. This bodes well for the program.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 Sep 2011 23:41

A LOT of great data points.

On network centric....................hope they are making good headway with the AESA. NEED that bandwidth, nothing else can really compare to it.

Also, I had come across an article that states that when ANY Italian asset comes in to use (an aircraft flies, or a ship leaves port) it immediately becomes a node in the "network" - automatically. A very neat architecture to take note of.

On rambling ....................... need a KM Korner thread .................. I would say.

Would be interested in MCA noise.

Thx and TIA.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby suryag » 25 Sep 2011 01:03

Sri Karan M's posts show things are very positive on the DRDO-IAF interface front. IT is always good for the users to come back to the maker asking for more, hope the users dont wait for the best and start inducting what is available to them and then pressurise the DRDO to deliver more. I think its time for some private orgs to now jump into manufacturing as DRDO's technology has reached a fair degree of maturity and can transfer this tech to them. We might also see more numbers of MK1 as the fatigue/serviceability of the 21s degrade

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 25 Sep 2011 08:26

Vashishtha wrote:a bit confused.. The super sukhois order is different than the original su 30 mki order or is it that the remaining su 30 mki's to be delivered will be converted to super sukhoi plus some more?


As I mentioned in my speculative write up, it will be the the 18 SU-30k's that are expected to be replaced by the Supers. Don't ask more questions as the information is scarce now.

RCS reduction. Weapons in internal bay and AESA will be the key features.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vinito » 25 Sep 2011 11:56

chackojoseph wrote:
Vashishtha wrote:a bit confused.. The super sukhois order is different than the original su 30 mki order or is it that the remaining su 30 mki's to be delivered will be converted to super sukhoi plus some more?


As I mentioned in my speculative write up, it will be the the 18 SU-30k's that are expected to be replaced by the Supers. Don't ask more questions as the information is scarce now.

RCS reduction. Weapons in internal bay and AESA will be the key features.


Looks like a similar effort to what the Americans are doing on the F-15 with the silent eagle upgrade

Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Sep 2011 20:40

NRao, thanks for your kind words which I don't really deserve. About AESA and then to NCW- I think a lot of ground work has gone into the enabling infrastructure and concepts for the latter, but it will take time to mature. AESA is something we are beginning to be exposed to - it offers really great performance and reliability. Hopefully, we will master the X band fire control radar technology too and make derivatives. The way we are doing with ground based systems. You must have seen the latest MOD Annual Report. It mentions five AESA based systems being developed, three ground based, two airborne & over time, there will be more.

Suryag, agree wholeheartedly with your points.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 25 Sep 2011 21:36

no media reports have claimed internal bay for super 30 ?? any other source for that ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 25 Sep 2011 21:58

karan_mc wrote:no media reports have claimed internal bay for super 30 ?? any other source for that ?


Not exactly and a very good question. However, when someone asked the difference between MMRCA and 5th gen, Air Chief gave a definition, which included "internal bays."

I omitted the speculations like AESA / internal bays etc in the article, as the entire thing is revolving around speculations. Read the words used by me to indicate speculation. I published this news a day late because, I took time to arrange the words and water it down.


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Victor » 25 Sep 2011 22:10

Wonder if the Super Su-30 has canted vertical tail fins to reduce radar cross section like the Silent Eagle?

The airborne Brahmos will probably be about 30% smaller and lighter than the ground-launched model since it won't need the booster stage. So the plane won't necessarily be sluggish w/o any other munitions bar a2a missiles, specially if it uses a conformal bay.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vinito » 25 Sep 2011 22:34

Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 26 Sep 2011 02:00

The key points are those mentioned by Fedorov, rest need more details to verify.

-Cockpit, radar and stealth upgrades
- Upgrade still being negotiated with India
- Will enable carriage of a heavier warload
- Will apply to the aircraft in service, those yet to be supplied, and also those in license production at HAL (basically all Sukhois)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 26 Sep 2011 10:51

What’s “Super “about Super Sukhoi 30?

this articles summons it up , its just a MLU :D

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 27 Sep 2011 05:13

Technically, any upgrade to an operational aircraft could be called an MLU in that manner. Getting an AESA and radar-evading structural or material changes would then have to be the mother of all MLUs. I'm assuming the AESA has good passive detection capabilities or else the structural changes are pointless if the plane itself is radiating.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 27 Sep 2011 08:51

chackojoseph wrote:As I mentioned in my speculative write up, it will be the the 18 SU-30k's that are expected to be replaced by the Supers. Don't ask more questions as the information is scarce now.RCS reduction. Weapons in internal bay and AESA will be the key features.


CJ – some corrections -

The 18 MK replacement order was signed 2007 and already delivered. The aircraft had been extensively flown and had reached their TBO, that was not carried out and the birds were grounded. http://www.hindu.com/2007/04/13/stories ... 591400.htm and http://en.take-off.ru/news/102-feb2011/ ... ia-02-2011
Later on, 18 more fighters of the type arrived in 2008–2009 under a “trade-in” deal clinched in 2007 as a replacement of 18 Su-30Ks delivered in late 1990s


Additional 40 ordered same year as SKD in 2007 and delivery should be completed by now. In our minister's written reply to parliament - http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=55262
M/s HAL would be procuring the technical kits from Russia and assembling the aircraft.
These kit assembly allowed HAL to claim a manufacturing rate of 28 aircraft pa.

I've been told [hence speculative information] that the 2007 birds can be identified by their numbers, since they are numbered 051 onwards, and 3xx onwards. The fully HAL manufactured birds are numbered 1xx and 2xx onwards.

The latest SKD order of 42 authorized 2010 is for which the upgrade is discussed. http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=64452 Older fighter will be upgraded during their overhauls. If HAL is able to absorb the technology, then the last of the 140 will be built to later standards.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Sep 2011 09:17

tsarkar wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:As I mentioned in my speculative write up, it will be the the 18 SU-30k's that are expected to be replaced by the Supers. Don't ask more questions as the information is scarce now.RCS reduction. Weapons in internal bay and AESA will be the key features.


CJ – some corrections -

The 18 MK replacement order was signed 2007 and already delivered. The aircraft had been extensively flown and had reached their TBO, that was not carried out and the birds were grounded. http://www.hindu.com/2007/04/13/stories ... 591400.htm and http://en.take-off.ru/news/102-feb2011/ ... ia-02-2011
Later on, 18 more fighters of the type arrived in 2008–2009 under a “trade-in” deal clinched in 2007 as a replacement of 18 Su-30Ks delivered in late 1990s


That is a fact. I am amending the article to omit the 18 planes. IMO, the Belarus buy article also said that theywere formally handed over.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby K_Rohit » 27 Sep 2011 11:58

Are there MKIs in Barmer?


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