Su-30: News and Discussion

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Kartik
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 02 May 2012 03:31

Gilles wrote:
koti wrote:Aussies got Growler.


Not true, yet.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2012/03/go-for-raaf-growlers/

Here is one author who thinks that Canada could be better off with a combination F/A-18E and EA-18G Growler working as a team than just having the F-35.

http://www.casr.ca/mp-northern-growler-daly.htm

I agree with the idea expressed by this author. Canada faces no real threat worth speaking of, just as Australia has no real enemies and no dangerous threats. I understand their desire to maintain a decent sized fighter force to tackle possible contingencies that today may not have been factored in, but they should evaluate the costs for such options thoroughly and only then commit to it. To me it seems that one of the driving factors behind these F-35 programs are that both nations wish to project a certain capability that backs their economic might, rather than having any major use for such capability.

For Canada, Russia presents a possible threat, but mostly through long range bombers penetrating their airspace. Most of Canada’s population and industrial centers are really far from Russia’s easternmost bases and would present a big challenge for Russia to support a large fighter force attacking them with tanker support being absolutely necessary.

Russian long range bombers can be easily tackled by Super Hornets as well as F-35s, though ideally they’d want a fighter with longer range, endurance and good dash capability. The RuAF is very unlikely to launch a large scale invasion of Canada which requires stealth aircraft to fight off other stealth optimized aircraft (a threat that won’t emerge till 2020 at the very earliest, since PAK-FA won’t enter service before that). As far as expeditionary capability is concerned, the F-35 is definitely a more attractive option than the Super Hornet, but are Super Hornets useless in an expeditionary role? I don’t really think so, otherwise most of NATO will need to re-equip.

I agree with the author- they should look to hold off their F-35 purchase till such a time as when they can evaluate other options that may be available by say 2025. A thorough cost versus gain analysis is needed for Canada to be absolutely sure that it should continue with its F-35 procurement, especially considering how much more costlier and riskier it is compared to the Super Hornet program. the Super Hornet’s twin engines presents an added safety feature for the RCAF especially considering how vast their land mass is and how remote most of it is. A pilot’s chance of recovering safely are definitely improved on a twin engined aircraft with reliable F-414s.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 May 2012 16:24

>> Flights of 4 would be assigned to the SWC, WC, CC and EC each.

thats too less imo. each air command would need minimum 1 squadron (16 ac) to be capable of presenting 10 airworthy a/c (66% uptime) on any given day...enough to support lets say 20 strike packages over a days work. so minimum 48 airframes across 4 commands - SWAC, WC, NC and EC...CC getting a few extras from the other 4 as needed. IN will need additional.

I have kept uptime as 66% due to additional complexity of the EW mission suite and payloads which adds its own servicing time.

for comparison at present USA which plans for 1 high intensity war at a time (needing such assets) has a total order of 114 airframes with some half delivered. they will surely buy some more.

with so many airframes needed, I think basing mission payload around the Tejas, MKI and Rafale is the best bet as we can always produce more...and they will be all over the place in each command eventually. they can co-locate with a regular squadron or unit of same type under that commands area for ground crew commonality.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 02 May 2012 17:52

Canada is having a problem where major mart of their EEZ is under permanent ice. No one lives there and almost no one ventures there. But now it is becoming clear that these remote areas have tremendous potential for natural resources. Unfortunately for them, the Russians and Americans have taken their nuclear subs and planted flags at the bottom of Arctic at many places. As Canada had not maintained regular surveillance of these remote areas for a long time, their claims are being questioned. Recently, the Canadian govt. has started investing in hardware that could deter future challenges to their claim.

I'd think, given their vast area, they should invest in quantity and in hardware that has long legs. That said, until the resources start getting exploited, I don't think they can afford too much hardware. So perhaps they're being selective and choosing what they expect to have longer shelf life.
Last edited by JTull on 02 May 2012 21:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby vonkabra » 02 May 2012 18:09

Karan M wrote:
Gross! I've heard of s**t cans before, but that is ridiculous.


More like a p*ss can. If its the other thing, they'll still have to hold it in.



A newspaper (either ToI or The Telegraph) had an article on one of the Cope India exercises where they mentioned that American pilots use adult diapers for long distance missions and the Indians were following suit. Sounds hard to reconcile with macho fighter pilot image, but probably a much more practical solution than holding cans.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 May 2012 18:19

Canada needs a fleet of long range LRMP/CG type planes, UAVs of the global hawk mould, long range OTH radar for sea watchkeeping, good ice breaker and coast guard vessels capable of operating long distances and heavy seas, a chain of supporting bases, some nuclear submarines, a few ASW carriers in LPH format , a couple of marine brigades equipped to fight in the arctic conditions and finally a medium complement of F-15SK type to provide the long range strike power.

F18/JSF is not very relevant. for all the above they need to spend big or someone else will eat the meal. khan will not be helpful. perhaps they should hook in with France who doesnt have a dog in the arctic fight.

the days of riding on khan's budget are over. they need to up spending.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby VishalJ » 13 May 2012 12:35

I saw this photo on Flickr with the remarks, "SU30 - RIAT 2007" and asked the photographer if he was sure about this being RIAT & not Waddington (where VayuSena Su30s had gone to for exercise Indra Dhanush)
He confirmed it being RIAT by stating, "They were there...on arrival one of the jets did some unplanned go arounds and pulled some G so those who were at RIAT for arrivals had a real treat, during the actual show the 30's were on static."
Seconded by another shooter: "Yep, this was from the arrivals day was great to see this one do a few burn arounds the circuit."

Cool! Never knew that ^

Image


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 16 May 2012 23:18

Canada like Australia (althogh they are worse off) jusyt does not have the population or resources to defend such vast territory

If the free meals from khan are gone they are in trouble

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 16 May 2012 23:20



Great! So the one thing that we all thought was going well for the IAF...isn't. That explains why there has been no news about any other squadron getting re-equipped with the MKI after the 102.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 16 May 2012 23:29

That article states 150 MKI's.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 May 2012 23:39

How is HAL going to manage two variant of LCA and MMRCA, and later PAKFA? I already see good timing for private enterprises start pitching in their share of keeping up with subcomponent level deliveries.. and then again, it could be integration issues, etc.. as HAL is already neck deep into total controls of everything on our land for the forces.

tough times ahead.. i am sure, some shakeups will be there.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby member_22906 » 16 May 2012 23:49

Its not prudent to put all our eggs in the same basket. About the right time to restructure/reorganize HAL to meet the demand and dynamism that the future holds

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 16 May 2012 23:59

Cybaru wrote:That article states 150 MKI's.

There are 7 known MKI squadrons - 2, 8 20, 24, 30, 31 and 102. If all of them are filled to capacity, the total will come to around 140 including reserves. So that number is not far off. I doubt if it is the exact number anyway.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 17 May 2012 02:59

Well there are conflicting reports to some of what this article states. I distinctly recall reading that manufacture of engines and the MKI frame from raw materials started in 2010. There might be some delays but I hope/doubt it is anything extraordinary. As far as numbers are concerned:

50 originals from Russia - completed by 2007
HAL production starts in 2004 @ 8 units p.a (2004-2008) = 36 units
HAL production picks up to 14 p.a after 2008-09 = 42?
40 extra MKI (2007) batch comes either directly from Irkut (as images show) or via HAL, delivery should defnitely be done by now

Total imvho @ a minimum stands at: 160

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby srai » 17 May 2012 07:52

^^^

Some interesting tit-bits on numbers and upgrade details below:

Indian Air Force to order more Su-30MKI
Feb 2011
Today, the Su-30MKI two-seat supermanoeuvrable multirole fighter fleet is the trademark of the Indian Air Force and its most sophisticated combat planes in service. To date, the Russia’s Irkut corporation has supplied IAF with over 50 fly-away aircraft of the type and India’s HAL corporation has been licence-producing the Su-30MKI since 2004, with the licence production to last until 2014 at the least. Irkut delivered the first 32 Su-30MKIs under the 1996 contract to IAF during 2002–2004. Later on, 18 more fighters of the type arrived in 2008–2009 under a “trade-in” deal clinched in 2007 as a replacement of 18 Su-30Ks delivered in late 1990s

The contract with India on licence production of 140 Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, NPO Saturn AL-31FP thrust vector control engines and avionics, including the Tikhomirov-NIIP Bars phased-array radars, was signed on 28 December 2000. It became the major deal in the Russian-Indian cooperation, valued at $3 billion-plus. The first HAL-assembled Su-30MKI was accepted by IAF on 28 November 2004.

In 2007, Rosoboronexport and Irkut, on the one hand, and the Indian Defence Ministry, on the other, made a deal for 40 Su-30MKIs more, which boosted the number of HAL-produced fighters up to 180. Irkut started the delivery of the knockdown kits under the new contract in 2008. HAL’s boss Ashok Nayak has said recently that his corporation had delivered “about 105 Su-30MKI planes” to IAF, with the Indian Defence Ministry expected to order 42 fighters more, driving the total number of HAL-assembled Su-30MKIs up to 222 units. Thus, IAF might get as many as 272 planes of the type by the mid-decade, including the Su-30MKIs supplied by Irkut in fly-away condition.

Meanwhile, the Su-30MKI programme has not been sitting on its hands, and the fighter being delivered to India these days differ from those supplied earlier in the decade in greater capabilities of the fire control system owing to latest operating modes and enhanced characteristics of the avionics suite. Since the Su-30MKI production and deliveries will have continued for at least four to five years more while their service life will last at least 25 years, further improvement of the aircraft by means of even more sophisticated avionics and weapons comes to the fore. Such priorities now include the arming of the Indian Su-30MKI fleet with the cutting-edge BrahMos-A long-range precision-guided multirole air-to-surface missiles that is under development by BrahMos Russian-Indian joint venture, which has already delivered missile’s ship-based and land-based versions to the Indian Navy and Army.

In addition, the upgrade will apply to the fighter’s avionics suite. The current preliminary agreements stipulate phased upgrade of the Tikhomirov-NIIP’s Bars phased-array radar. The first phase of the upgrade is supposed to boost the radar’s performance through introduction of additional operating modes as well as more-capable computers and software. This is to maximise the reliance on the solutions of the existing phased-array radar already productionised by India under Russian license. Phase two of the upgrade is to see the Bars’s passive phased array replaced with an active electronically-scanned array (AESA).

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby sankum » 17 May 2012 08:32

According to newsreports th delivery of Su30MKI was being ramped upto 28/year by HAL including assembly of 40nos direct from Russia in semi knocked down kits.

Hal production can be expected @16/year though delay has been reported in this as now complete aircraft has to be built from raw material stage.

The rest being made up from semi knocked down kits from russia.

The 140nos were to produced by HAL by 2014 which is likely to be delayed to 2015 according to reports.

Feb 2011 figure is 50+105 produced by HAL+say 28(in 2011)-18 returned=165 by feb 2012.

Of these 3 have crashed. So the likely figure is 160+ for the present if you also incude 7 nos for first quarter of 2012.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 17 May 2012 12:00

nachiket wrote:There are 7 known MKI squadrons - 2, 8 20, 24, 30, 31 and 102. If all of them are filled to capacity, the total will come to around 140 including reserves. So that number is not far off. I doubt if it is the exact number anyway.
nachiket wrote:Great! So the one thing that we all thought was going well for the IAF...isn't. That explains why there has been no news about any other squadron getting re-equipped with the MKI after the 102.
17

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 19 May 2012 17:20

AL-31FM2 is a good option to uprate the engine of upgraded Su-30 MKI plus , its a plug and play replacement for AL-31FP needing no change in intake design. Thrust is 14.5 T link

Meanwhile, Salut has completed bench testing of the improved AL31FM-2 engine, confirming its ability to deliver the promised thrust of 14,500 kg (almost 32,000 pounds) at full afterburner, some two tons more than the standard AL31F (27,560 pounds). This version is intended for new-build Sukhoi Su-34 frontal bombers and Su-27SM single-seat multirole fighters being procured by the Russian air force.

The AL31FM-2 program was started at Salut’s initiative early in the last decade. It has recently won approval from the Russian defense ministry, which has validated the bench test results and opened talks with Sukhoi about flight-testing the improved engine on the airframer’s aircraft. Salut continues working on the more advanced AL31FM-3 with an advertised thrust at full afterburner of 15,200 kg (33,510 pounds).

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby pragnya » 23 May 2012 13:34

has this been posted before??

for cm and srai -

IAF SU 30MKI(incl HAL made) numbers updated till dec 2011

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 24 May 2012 01:33

tsarkar wrote:
nachiket wrote:There are 7 known MKI squadrons - 2, 8 20, 24, 30, 31 and 102. If all of them are filled to capacity, the total will come to around 140 including reserves. So that number is not far off. I doubt if it is the exact number anyway.
nachiket wrote:Great! So the one thing that we all thought was going well for the IAF...isn't. That explains why there has been no news about any other squadron getting re-equipped with the MKI after the 102.
17

Thanks. Any link, or did you hear it through your sources? No. 17 squadron earlier operated the Mig-21M.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 24 May 2012 03:27

pragnya wrote:has this been posted before??

for cm and srai -

IAF SU 30MKI(incl HAL made) numbers updated till dec 2011


That site is maintained by a Polish person!! Kudos to him.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby pragnya » 24 May 2012 09:40

NRao wrote:
pragnya wrote:has this been posted before??

for cm and srai -

IAF SU 30MKI(incl HAL made) numbers updated till dec 2011


That site is maintained by a Polish person!! Kudos to him.


yes. even i was surprised at the diligence shown by the person. 8)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 26 May 2012 12:11

pragnya wrote:has this been posted before??

for cm and srai -

IAF SU 30MKI(incl HAL made) numbers updated till dec 2011


Thanks Pragnya, nice work by the gentleman. I am not so sure about his tally of 120 birds though - I think he is missing the 40 ordered in 2007, which should bring us to the 160+ number earlier

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 26 May 2012 16:43

So, what I read here is HAL is established as an SDK partner.. which is good enough, if they can demostrate superior integration skills. Home grown subsystem and component developers can be engaged on the same mode. It is important to know HAL status as MMRCA and LCA needs much greater attention thatn SDK or an advanced screw driver mode production model.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Hiten » 07 Jun 2012 23:23

558 Aircraft Repair Plant Refurbish India's Su-30K for Russia

http://osgeoint.blogspot.in/2012/05/bel ... plant.html

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Nick_S » 08 Jun 2012 06:23

This seems to Irkuts Su-30MKI (Super Sukhoi) test cockpit:

Image

No buttons, touch screen interface.

Also, its been mentioned that the BARS radar range will be doubled after the upgrade (not sure if its after phase 1 or 2 :?: )

(pic / info from AFM).

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 08 Jun 2012 06:44

On a lighter note, it looks like somebody took a dual monitor and installed it on the plane. Kuch bakse-wakse mein dalo yaar!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 08 Jun 2012 07:08

Isn't that the Su-35BM cockpit?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Indrajit » 08 Jun 2012 09:17

Have posted it earlier.This is the test cockpit of Super 30 UPG.This was originally posted by a Russian guy at WAFF who is associated with IRKUT.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 08 Jun 2012 10:27

Nick_S wrote:No buttons, touch screen interface.


Where can I popup in the blu ray movie? :mrgreen:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Nick_S » 08 Jun 2012 13:46

Lol, I hope they dont install angry birds on it... :D

j/k

nachiket wrote:Isn't that the Su-35BM cockpit?


Nope, the Su-35BM has buttons on the MFD; not touch screen.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 08 Jun 2012 14:40

What is the advantage of having 2 Big Screen instead of having 3 small screens ?

To me they dont look cool but may be beyond the coolness it has more functional value to it ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby VishalJ » 11 Jun 2012 12:27


koti
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby koti » 11 Jun 2012 13:08

What is the Missile on the innermost wing pylon?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2012 13:18

I think its the first public photo of the improved AA12 called RVV-SD( unveiled in 2009) in IAF service!
its fatter than the other three , and has a conformal wire guide from the back to the warhead section kind of like isro launchers do.

this photo from maker has that guide, other older aa12 photos(RVV-AE) on net dont.
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-77_(missile)
Tactical Missile Corp., also known as TRV, unveiled its so-called RVV-SD and RVV-MD missiles for the first time at the Moscow air show in August 2009. The RVV-SD is an improved version of the R-77 (AA-12 Adder), while the RVV-MD is a variant of the R-73 (AA-11 Archer).[10]

The RVV-SD, along with the RVV-MD, seem to be part of Russia's bid for India's medium multirole combat aircraft competition. Both designations were included by MiG on a presentation covering MiG-35 Fulcrum armament during Aero India Air Show in February.

The basic R-77 is known as the Article 170, and the RVV-SD includes the upgrades associated with the Article 170-1 designation. The 170-1 development has been underway for some time, and testing is believed to have been carried out. The RVV-SD is in effect the export variant of the 170-1.

According to information released by the company, the missile is 15 kg (33 lb) heavier than the basic R-77/RVV-AE, weighing 190 kg (420 lb) rather than 175 kg (390 lb). Maximum range claimed is increased to 110 km (68 mi) from 80 km (50 mi). The missile is also slightly longer at 3.71 metres (12.2 ft), rather than the 3.6 metres (12 ft) of the basic variant.

The radar seeker has also probably been upgraded. Russian missile manufacturer Agat previously confirmed it was working on seeker upgrades for the R-77, implying that at least two projects were underway, one for export and one for the Russian air force.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2012 13:20

they must have pained the nosecone a diff colour to easily distinguish it in the stocks.

we are likely retiring our older blocks of R73E and quietly laying in the RVV-MD as well. these two differ by only 1kg in weight and 2cm in length, so nobody can distinguish it from external pics unless the markings were visible I would think.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby pragnya » 11 Jun 2012 13:37

Singha wrote:I think its the first public photo of the improved AA12 called RVV-SD( unveiled in 2009) in IAF service!
its fatter than the other three , and has a conformal wire guide from the back to the warhead section kind of like isro launchers do.

this photo from maker has that guide, other older aa12 photos(RVV-AE) on net dont.
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/


no Singha, it is not RVV-SD but RVV-AE.

also note the nose cone on SD is a little longish as compared to AE which is on the MKI which conforms to the above link.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2012 18:51

possible but why are the others having white nose?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 11 Jun 2012 19:58

They must be dummies..

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Jun 2012 20:14

Vishal Jolapara wrote:My Latest Photo:
#31 Squadron's Lioness Fully-Loaded


What's on the pylon just inboard of the bombs on the right wing?


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