Su-30: News and Discussion

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Philip
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Dec 2012 22:12

New Ind.Exp reports that the IAF will base SU-30s at Thanjavur and Sulur (Coimbatore) in the futre,both bases being modernised for the same.The LCA will eventually arrive at Sulur,most probably after the Flanker induction.With the other report that the LCA needs another 1500 crores,we might as well nickname it as a "Black hole"!.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 12 Dec 2012 23:32

Philip wrote:New Ind.Exp reports that the IAF will base SU-30s at Thanjavur and Sulur (Coimbatore) in the futre,both bases being modernised for the same.The LCA will eventually arrive at Sulur,most probably after the Flanker induction.With the other report that the LCA needs another 1500 crores,we might as well nickname it as a "Black hole"!.


Care to compare the cost involved in developing other front-line weapon systems in the world..? it is really matter of parallel path of development (F-22--- Lockheed and Boeing), multiple engine options (F-35) which often helps Khan to cut down the development time which we do not have the luxury off...

kindly check this link.. which came out a week back..

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/most-expe ... 55071.html

Total program cost

1. F-35 --- $ 332 Billion +
2. BMD system ----$ 126.3 Billion +
3. DDG-51 Guided Missile Destroyer ---- $ 87.3 Billion
4. Pratt and Whitney F135 --- $63.8 Billion
5. V-22 Osprey ----$53.5 Billion

check the other 5 in the link....

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vipul » 19 Dec 2012 04:41

Putin may announce $7 billion arms deal during India trip.

Russian President Vladimir Putin may announce about $7 billion worth of weapons contracts, including for Sukhoi fighter jets, when he visits India next week, according to three people in the defence industry.

During Putin’s visit on 24 December, the two countries will announce contracts for 42 Sukhoi Su-30MKI jets, made by United Aircraft’s Irkut Corp., and almost 1,000 AL-31 warplane engines to be delivered through 2030, according to the three people who asked not to be identified because the information isn’t public. Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov declined to comment.

India, Russia’s top arms customer, has at least doubled its defence budget over the last decade as it looks beyond a traditional rivalry with Pakistan to counter China’s rising power. Putin, who returned to the presidency this year, has spearheaded Russia’s efforts to fend off competition for the contracts from the US and Europe.

“These will be truly historical deals if signed,” Konstantin Makiyenko, the deputy head of the Moscow-based Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, said by phone on Monday. “I don’t remember a contract for 1,000 engines at all and deals for over 40 planes happen twice in a decade.”
Syed Akbaruddin, a spokesman at the Indian ministry of external affairs, wasn’t available to comment. Vyacheslav Davidenko, a spokesman for Russia’s state-owned weapons exporter Rosoboronexport, declined to comment.

Russian defence-industry exports have exceeded $14 billion this year, higher than the government’s target, Putin said on Monday. The country has signed new contracts worth $15 billion in 2012, he added.

Then-defence minister Anatoly Serdyukov said 10 October that Russia expected to sign a deal to ship 42 Sukhoi jets to India by the end of the year, RIA Novosti news service reported.

India has already received about 150 Russian jets, according to CAST estimates.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Dec 2012 07:42

good. but we should ensure Sukhoi continues to improve on the AL31 engine and delivers EPE and EDE enhancements in future tranches rather than just taking our money to improve the 117(pakfa) and 117s(su35bm). I believe something called the AL31FM2 is there in prototype format and could be adapted to the TVC as a AL31FP2

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 19 Dec 2012 09:11

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/410074.html

$5 billion deal with Rosoboronexport for license production of 970 AL-31FP engine for MKI

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nash » 19 Dec 2012 10:07

970 Al-31FP, where we use this many of engine.Since ~150 MKI already inducted and 120 left. 240 will go there.still 700+ left , so either we use all the remaining ones as spares or we can say in future number of MKI, in super 30, will increase.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Dec 2012 10:31

Prithwiraj wrote:
Philip wrote:New Ind.Exp reports that the IAF will base SU-30s at Thanjavur and Sulur (Coimbatore) in the futre,both bases being modernised for the same.The LCA will eventually arrive at Sulur,most probably after the Flanker induction.With the other report that the LCA needs another 1500 crores,we might as well nickname it as a "Black hole"!.


Care to compare the cost involved in developing other front-line weapon systems in the world..? it is really matter of parallel path of development (F-22--- Lockheed and Boeing), multiple engine options (F-35) which often helps Khan to cut down the development time which we do not have the luxury off...

kindly check this link.. which came out a week back..

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/most-expe ... 55071.html

Total program cost

1. F-35 --- $ 332 Billion +
2. BMD system ----$ 126.3 Billion +
3. DDG-51 Guided Missile Destroyer ---- $ 87.3 Billion
4. Pratt and Whitney F135 --- $63.8 Billion
5. V-22 Osprey ----$53.5 Billion

check the other 5 in the link....


Philip has a right to have his own opinion. He doesn't want Bharat to start any single new project on its own. He wants us to buy only second hand stuff from brishiters. He wants us to buy their unfinished queer-something-aircraft carrier. This way Bharatvarsh doesn't have to go through the pain and learning of developing new systems, his favourite country will carry that burden for us.

Very compassionate of Philip and his beloved britain about whom his opinion is :

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5366&p=1375310#p1375310

".......betrayer of the favourite British virtues of truth and justice and his Anglican heritage for the Catholic Church,......."

Sorry didn't know, I only remembered brits for their cunning genocides like 'artificially created famines' which killed 5 million bengalis??? and churchill the believer of this "favourite British virtues of truth and justice" is known to have said compassionately "Indians will breed like rabbits again......"

Nope this 1500 crore will go to lazy PSU workers salary, back in desi economy, and our good for nothing DRDO scientists. The british have the first and last right to this and all other funds being used to develop platforms indigenously. The british can use this money to develop new aircrafts, ships, systems and we can buy their old second hand systems. Yup this is the way to go.

Everybody on BR must now remember how Philip had said years ago that instead of developing Tejas we should just work of Mig 21 improvisation. Now look what happened we're going to face the pain of learning to setup production lines for LCA. We shouldn't do that, its all black hole.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Boreas » 19 Dec 2012 11:28

what will we do of 1000 engines? :O

AMCA!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 19 Dec 2012 11:50

^^ Engine life is much lesser than airframe life, so an aircraft needs multiple engines over its lifetime. Especially since Russian design philosophy is fully replace rather than multiple overhauls.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Dec 2012 11:56

>> Philip and his beloved britain

:rotfl: dont be misled by the name, he is very much indian and many senior brfites know him.
he would be most upset to be taken as a bartania supporter, quite the opposite in fact!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Boreas » 19 Dec 2012 11:57

@tsarkar
but for that case, wouldn't it be wise to wait till MLU and get the best suited technology then.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 19 Dec 2012 12:12

^^ Agree, in that wisdom Jaguar is getting a different engine from the original one.

Philip
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Dec 2012 12:39

I'm not at all offended by critics.The "truth and justice" part is because most Brits believe their country stands for such values.The gentleman's game of cricket,"playing with a straight bat",etc.,etc. You will find that the harshest critics of Brits are their media.Their parliamentarians have been shamed for fudging their expenses for by Indian standards absurd figures of a few hundred pounds,MPs taking their wives along by train at govt. expense and so forth.One minister had toi resign because he said his wife was driving when he was inebriated and later got found out.In India we have habitual fornicators and fathers (illegitimate) like ND Tiwari,returning to the political arena regardless of his reputation.Not to mention the Rajas,Kalmadis and the other major scamsters,who have allegedly looted billions!

Yes,the British politicos,like Tony B.Liar also do not practise what they preach,which is what I've pointed out.I have always come down most heavily on the western "Hypocrasies",especially the nuclear armed ones who want India to freeze its strategic deterrent while they merrily keep on refining their own arsenals.

Anyway,coming back to the thread,if true,it is good news indeed as without a steady supply of engines,all our aircraft will be grounded,like the Hawks-16 of them for want of spares.I continuousy keep on harping about the key priority for the IAF is to master aero-engine tech,best done through JVs first,then along with parallel desi development.

Given the large number of engines,enough for a a few hundred Flankers,it appears that the SU-30MKIs and upgraded Super Flankers will be larger in number than previously planned,especially after the decision to cut the FGFA numbers by 1/3rd (AWST),scrapping the two-seat version which was to have been developed along with HAL.It thus appears that two-seat Super Flankers with enhanced stealth will make up the required number,at much lowrer cost too.This will also help "fill in the blanks",due to the non-arrival of the LCA on time,as even the southern base at Sulur,which was to have had LCAs initially,will have SU-30MKIs first.The pres. yesterday gave one of the sqds. stationed at the base its colours.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2012 20:07

Boreas wrote:what will we do of 1000 engines? :O

AMCA!

Su 30 is the new MiG 21 to take us halfway through this century

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 21 Dec 2012 07:49

We might actually end up having 300+ SU30 MKIs, we already have 160+ Flankers, so Desh should already have close to 400 engines... this new order for 1K engines can support (along with existing engines) around 400+ birds.
Either SDREs are going to use these for AMCA or for some other Jugaad or this is a payoff to the Bear for some other Stealth deal.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby alexis » 21 Dec 2012 09:39

Al-31 has a life of 3000-4000 hours while the airfame should have 6000+ hours. So each fighter would need 4 engines on average in its lifetime.

Still 970 seems to be too high a number; maybe we are planning to increase rambhas in our service or 970 may be the max no. of licenses. We may only produce as much as we need.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Zynda » 21 Dec 2012 10:11

I hope the contract is for upgraded variant of AL-31F (seems unlikely though) or IAF thinks the current engine is good enough.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 21 Dec 2012 11:23

nash wrote:970 Al-31FP, where we use this many of engine.Since ~150 MKI already inducted and 120 left. 240 will go there.still 700+ left , so either we use all the remaining ones as spares or we can say in future number of MKI, in super 30, will increase.



For the aircrafts contracted to be acquired earlier there must have been an engines contract separate from this one.

These 970 could be entirely a new batch for entirely a new requirement of fresh aircrafts.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 21 Dec 2012 11:40

A noobie question: Is it possible to build a Snark type cruise missile with 4-5 ton payload for a range of 5-8K kilometers around a Al-31FP engine.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 21 Dec 2012 11:53

Al31 will easily power a snark vehicle. but to what end? such a missile will be easily detected and shot down by SAM/AAM being only mach1 and 50,000ft ceiling.

we already have the Shourya that has 600km and flies at 40km altitude at Mach6...out of reach of any current SAM or fighter launched AAM it seems.
something with those specs and 3000km range might need a scramjet and thats exactly where the world is going.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 21 Dec 2012 12:20

could this be the use for some of these 970 engines . we already have air frames & its tested also ,as seen in the pictures.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

for more pics see here http://pilot.strizhi.info/2008/03/22/5256

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 22 Dec 2012 09:45

tushar_m wrote:could this be the use for some of these 970 engines . we already have air frames & its tested also ,as seen in the pictures.

Tushar Bhai, please explain your ideas, a bunch of pics does not help Noobies like me. BTB some pics don't render.

tushar_m

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 22 Dec 2012 10:08

shrinivasan bhai please see the link given ,its in Russian please use google translator to get all the technical & other information available about this test .

the thing is Indian mig27 was used for the test so there is some thought in mind of IAF about the possibility
i.e (mig27 +al31) test=IAF+Russian

please ask the other members about the project as i have only read the news from the link given.

also for pic please see the link all info & pics are there only................:)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 24 Dec 2012 07:37

Makes sense to re-engine our Mig-27s with a new engine, unfortunately the residual airframe life might be very less to warrant this re-engine initiative... Ay thoughs guru-log.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 24 Dec 2012 07:51

Shrinivasan wrote:Makes sense to re-engine our Mig-27s with a new engine, unfortunately the residual airframe life might be very less to warrant this re-engine initiative... Ay thoughs guru-log.


IIRC the MiG 27 has a worse safety record than the much maligned MiG 21. It is ancient tech and with all those pivots, joints and hydraulics to swivel the wings - it must be a maintenance nightmare. I seriuosly doubt if the wiring and plumbing can be put in for even the sort of digital stuff that stopped being state of the art a decade ago, let alone the latest. We really need to be getting rid of them and putting them in aviation museums all over the country.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Dec 2012 07:55

IAF definitely shares your opinion. after the 40 newest Mig27 went through a limited avionics upg, there is no plan for upging the rest or re-engining.

by 2020 they will all be gone, and so will the bisons(before 2020 infact)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 24 Dec 2012 07:59

The Mig-27 has perhaps other problems. I wonder if the swing-wing causes maintenance issues and also the load carrying capacity of the airframe may be inadequate. The answer - replace 27s with LCA mk1 and mk2. Don't waste time with 27 upgrade.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 24 Dec 2012 08:02

only because the rest have been flogged for so long that its not worth the expense to upgrade them

if we had started the upgrades a decade earlier it may have been more worthwhile

it was otherwise a nice solid aircraft for the role it was envisaged for

most of my IAF friends flew 27s and 23s and they were pretty happy with it

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby VishalJ » 24 Dec 2012 16:03

Deal For 42 More Su-30MKIs Signed
Image Image

MONDAY, DECEMBER 24, 2012
HAL Statement: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed a contract for 42 numbers of Su-30 MKI frontline Fighter Aircraft with the Ministry of Defence and Russian firm Rosoboronexport in New Delhi today. "HAL's total responsibility for this supersonic multirole aircraft has now gone up to 222. This will further boost our confidence and operations as we have already delivered 119 Su-30 aircraft to the Air Force. We will continue to contribute to the country's defence preparedness", says Dr. R. K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL. The deal was inked by Dr. Tyagi on behalf of HAL with the Ministry of Defence. Mr. S. Subramanyan, Managing Director of HAL's MiG Complex signed the contract with Mr. A. A. Mikheev, Deputy General Director of Rosobornexport.

One hundred fifty seven Indian vendors are involved in providing 13,350 components of the aircraft while another 19,450 components are manufactured at HAL's Nasik and Koraput Divisions, adds Dr. Tyagi.

The Su-30 MKI project provides solid platform to indigenous manufacturing and technical competence creating hundreds of direct and indirect jobs. HAL's hand-holding with private entrepreneurs has also ensured creation of strong infrastructure and quality avionics products.

Su-30 MKI is a two-seater, highly manoeuvrable, supersonic, multirole aircraft for day and night operations in all weather conditions. The aircraft is fitted with two turbojet AL-31FP engines and is equipped with state-of-the-art avionics from Russian, Western and indigenous sources.

The project has enabled HAL to master niche technologies of aircraft building and absorb new technologies in manufacturing areas like machining, forming, welding, assembly, testing and aircraft system checks. The aircraft airframes are made at Nasik, engines at Koraput, accessories at Hyderabad (communication and navigation), hydraulic, pneumatic and fuel aggregates and instruments at Lucknow and avionic displays and INGPS at Korwa. Overhauling and repairs of Su-30 MKI have already commenced in the dedicated lines set up at Nasik.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Dec 2012 16:08

So IAF has 50+119-3= 166 SU 30's

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 Dec 2012 22:20

the two countries inked the over Rs 16,000 crore deal for 42 Sukhois, which will add to the 230 Sukhois earlier contracted, and the one for 71 Mi-17 V5 helicopters (59 for IAF and 12 for BSF), to add to the 80 of these choppers already been inducted.

India will now not order any more Sukhois -- the 272 of them come at an overall price tag of over $12 billion with a bulk of them being produced by Hindustan Aeronautics -- but is preparing a plan to upgrade them into "Super Sukhois" in the years ahead with more advanced avionics, weapons and AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars.


super sukhois plan and the estimates are easy to make.. but what goes in them is important. I am not sure how the estimate these projects. it does not take 12b for AESA upgrades.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shaunb » 25 Dec 2012 00:56

So before this deal HAL had to manufacture 180 Su30s. Till now they have delivered 119. It would have taken them a while before the next 60 will be delivered. So why this need to sign a deal for another 42? Just to make the Russians happy?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Dec 2012 03:16

Yes.. the russian factory is getting dried up as even russian forces does not need that many and can wait for pakfa. whereas India needs them.. so, the scratch back is help keep the factory wet.

We also heard about HAL relinquishing certain rights on Su30 MKIs.. I think it was just for these 42s.. so, this is like reverse tech migration to chippanda hands - vetrivel++ hopefully does not get done by the russkies, and we do many of the integration stuff at HAL.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby sum » 25 Dec 2012 09:32

^^ Was the engine deal ( 970 engines) part of this deal but not made public or it didnt happen?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 25 Dec 2012 10:36

It is not a "drying up " of orders in Russia that is the reason behind this deal,it is the late arrival ,or rather "non-arrival" of the LCA.The Russians have placed substantial orders for the SU-35 Super Flanker .The LCA,meant to be located at Sulur near Coimbatore is being replaced/upstaged by the deployment of SU-30MKIs.Moreover,the MMRCA is also only going to fructify mush later in the decade and bu upgrades and ordering "more of the same",making it easier to support.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 25 Dec 2012 11:12

So whats is the final number 270 + 42 ??

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 25 Dec 2012 11:45

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/300 ... -deal.html

The Rs 16,000 crore deal for 42 more Su-30MKI will add to 230 SU-30 MKI already contracted, out of which close to 115 of these air dominance fighters have been produced by HAL.


So total 272.

More interestingly perhaps, is it ~70 million USD to a piece?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 25 Dec 2012 23:43

The upgraded super sukhoi will not come later than MMRCA or LCA.. now why do we want to order 42 of the same type? when you have super sukhois? come on.. they are really really dried up. total scratch back and poodling to russkies.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 26 Dec 2012 00:46

These 42 are for the Indian Strategic Force Command (SFC).

Sukhoi has orders for decades to come.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby koti » 26 Dec 2012 00:55

SaiK wrote:The upgraded super sukhoi will not come later than MMRCA or LCA.. now why do we want to order 42 of the same type? when you have super sukhois? come on.. they are really really dried up. total scratch back and poodling to russkies.

The final batch of the last order of around 40 MKIs are to be made in the Super Sukhoi configuration according to previous reports. Since these will be made after the last batch of the previous orders, these too should be of the same configuration.

Unlike Rafale, EF or F-16, Sukhois are having both a fantastic export record and a promissing future prospect. I don't think we have to order these to keep the lines running.


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