Su-30: News and Discussion

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rakall
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rakall » 02 Jul 2009 12:01

Sumeet wrote:
rakall wrote:No.. Both are for different purposes..

EL/M-20600 RTP can be used in wartime/peacetime surveillance & reconnaisance operations to get realtime picture of enemy territory from stand-off distance coverign huge swathes of area...

Litening pod is used for target designation purposes..


Both are for same purpose using different technologies - IR & EM.

RTP is equipped to deal with the complete kill sequence.
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/6/36836.pdf

Similarly Litening can do the same using IR technology. Of course both complement each other -- think of sensor fusion and how you can combine the individual benefits of IR and Radar technologies to knockout their individual disadvantages.



OOopss.... my answer was about EL/M 2060P (on MKI's) & Litening.. I mis-read the original post by Sean which refers to El/M20600 (for Jags)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Jul 2009 15:06

Anujan wrote:Ofcourse its a joke, I get it. But actually thinking along those lines, FBW is not the culprit here, relaxed stability is. If there is a flight computer and is switched off in a stable platform, no worries. The pilot can fly it and land it safely. The major problem in this case seems to be the pilot being unable to control the aircraft without the flight computer because relaxed stability of SU-30 is so hard to control.


Yes thats a foregone conclusion that if power to the computer which provides input to FBW is switched off , it will fall down like a stone.

Well they should not have that option to switch off powersupply to critical systems in flight , should be disable while in flight or if the option is available for what ever reason ( although i see no good reason to keep ) there should be a Natash type warning for half a minute or so before it takes effect.

rakall me and computer dont gel too well :(

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shankar » 02 Jul 2009 17:55

we can have two not so complicated modifications to avoid the su-30 type crash

1) interlock which will prevent power to computer being cut off under normal flying condition. This can be done from the limit switch on main undercarriage which indicates the position of the undercarriage on the multi functional display . When the under carriage is in UP position the existing or new limit switch should short out the flight computer power switches on instrument console ( the 4 which was put OFF) and supply uninterupted power from the avionics power bus directly .This will make switching off power to computer impossible in normal flight

2) to make the system more fail safe a signal feed from the radio altimeter can also be looped in the computer power supply circuit . This will not allow power to be switched off even when the flanker is on approach and main undercarriage is down position .

A flanker can never fly without the computer nor can the mirage 2000 for that matter .Same modification can be thought off in the mirage 2000 fleet also .

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 02 Jul 2009 18:32

Shankar wrote:we can have two not so complicated modifications to avoid the su-30 type crash

1) interlock which will prevent power to computer being cut off under normal flying condition. This can be done from the limit switch on main undercarriage which indicates the position of the undercarriage on the multi functional display . When the under carriage is in UP position the existing or new limit switch should short out the flight computer power switches on instrument console ( the 4 which was put OFF) and supply uninterupted power from the avionics power bus directly .This will make switching off power to computer impossible in normal flight

2) to make the system more fail safe a signal feed from the radio altimeter can also be looped in the computer power supply circuit . This will not allow power to be switched off even when the flanker is on approach and main undercarriage is down position .

A flanker can never fly without the computer nor can the mirage 2000 for that matter .Same modification can be thought off in the mirage 2000 fleet also .



Shankar ji,

Why all this high tech technical solutions. :)

The Air force has already solved the problem by simply wire locking the damn FBW power switches. As they should have done much earlier.

Henceforth, you will need a wire cutter to access these switches.

Enter Murphy. Someday someone will carry a cutter in his / her flight suit. :)
Last edited by chetak on 02 Jul 2009 18:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 02 Jul 2009 18:33

Is it true or just Chines meaningless bla-bla-bla .... !!



India's invasion of China by Red fighters 12 lock U-turn on the run

http://www.translate.google.com/transla ... ry_state0=

Jane's Defense Weekly," published the text said, according to information disclosed by the Indian army, 10 o'clock yesterday, the Indian SU-30MKI fighters two leap forward, "McMahon Line" in-depth reconnaissance of Tibet China's deployment of Chinese army, in the 50 kilometers from the border areas were found in the Chinese air force, and issued a warning. 随即,SU-30MKI上的飞行员发现战机已经被中国的防空导弹“红旗-12”锁定,便立即掉头逃窜回印度。 Then, SU-30MKI fighter plane the pilot has been found that China's anti-aircraft missiles "Red Flag -12" lock, then immediately turn around to flee to India.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Jul 2009 19:18

2nd part of it:=


文章说,这次印度SU-30MKI入侵中国是为了刺探中国近期兰州和成都军区的军队调动情况,特别是西藏地区的防御情况。 The article said that the Indian SU-30MKI's invasion of China in order to spy on China's Lanzhou and Chengdu Military Region, the recent military movements, in particular the situation in Tibetan areas of defense. 本月13日以来,印度空军不断入侵巴基斯坦挑衅,引起了两国极度紧张的军事对立,为例防止意外出现中国也大规模调动部队以防不测,这引起印度的高度不满和害怕。 On the 13th of this month since the invasion of Pakistan, the Indian Air Force continued provocation, causing extreme tension between the two countries military confrontation, as an example to prevent the unexpected large-scale mobilization of forces China to prevent the unexpected, which caused a high degree of dissatisfaction and India fear.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Jul 2009 20:25

About time.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby naird » 02 Jul 2009 21:04

Still cant understand why was the damn switches accesible in the first place.....

The entire stuff doesnt make sense IMHO ...two senior officials flying su 30 , it crashes and reason is pointed to switches...Jingo Brain of mine says they might have been testing something when this incident happened and cover story of switches was published.....

Maybe Shankarosky saar can put a spin on it....back to my chai biskoot.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby naird » 02 Jul 2009 21:10

Singha wrote:2nd part of it:=


文章说,这次印度SU-30MKI入侵中国是为了刺探中国近期兰州和成都军区的军队调动情况,特别是西藏地区的防御情况。 The article said that the Indian SU-30MKI's invasion of China in order to spy on China's Lanzhou and Chengdu Military Region, the recent military movements, in particular the situation in Tibetan areas of defense. 本月13日以来,印度空军不断入侵巴基斯坦挑衅,引起了两国极度紧张的军事对立,为例防止意外出现中国也大规模调动部队以防不测,这引起印度的高度不满和害怕。 On the 13th of this month since the invasion of Pakistan, the Indian Air Force continued provocation, causing extreme tension between the two countries military confrontation, as an example to prevent the unexpected large-scale mobilization of forces China to prevent the unexpected, which caused a high degree of dissatisfaction and India fear.


Cant make much sense of this report...But is it saying that Chinese red army locked onto Su 30 mki and su 30 was forced to flee back into India... ?

Somethin similar to what pakis reported during mumbai time...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby vavinash » 02 Jul 2009 21:33

Sounds made up. Why go deep into china if the EL/M 2060P can look deep into china.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby suryag » 02 Jul 2009 21:45

I guess this is just a cover for upcoming intrusions. There seems to be a pattern, first they say they had some indian sub trailing their frigates in their crosshairs, then they try to scuttle india's loan request to the ADB, and now this. All of this seems to be part of upping the ante for something coming up. IA better be prepared for some action on the ground in the ladakh area. IMO, we need to expedite the analysis of the CVR data from the An-32 crash, something doesnt seem right there.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby kishan » 02 Jul 2009 22:50

For me when ever i go through this crash of Su-30 i some times get a feeling that this whole thing is twisted.its gud to hear that there r no defects on this bird. but wat if the co-pilot here was made the scapegoat and may be they are covering up some thing. this thought really annoys me.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Jul 2009 23:04

not just ladakh (demchok) but numerous intrusions in sikkim also.

the unusual alacrity of IA/IAF opening AGLs, funding E-W roads and relocating flankers to tezpur
indicates we see it coming but cannot predict when (possibly some internal economic or political upheaval or assessment of a weak moment in India could trigger)...as also the fwd looking
announcement of mountain strike corps and Agni-5.

we are trying material and psyops means to close the "window" as quickly as possible...maintain the status quo with no bloodshed.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Willy » 02 Jul 2009 23:12

The computer power thing sounds like a whole lot of bull to me. Who in their right minds would leave a power switch in a place that was so easily accessible when it can cause such a catastrophe. Something else going on here

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Jul 2009 23:13

Singha Sir - spot on. There is perhaps a 5 year window that we should try to get through without any incident. In addition to the troop build up, we should also make the right conciliatory noises in political circles. Some bhai-bhai noises wouldnt hurt. If nothing, their responses to our overtures may even reveal their card. End OT.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2009 06:39

naird wrote:
Somethin similar to what pakis reported during mumbai time...


Lizard will claim that anyone in Arunachal Pradesh is on Chinese territory.


But I am fascinated by the language in the translation that is trying to say "We scared the crap out of the Indians"

There is face-saving in the language

the Indian Air Force continued provocation, causing extreme tension between the two countries military confrontation, as an example to prevent the unexpected large-scale mobilization of forces China to prevent the unexpected, which caused a high degree of dissatisfaction and India fear.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_M » 03 Jul 2009 06:50

Why go deep into china if the EL/M 2060P can look deep into china.


Why not? Light up their radar network like a Christmas Tree, and then the next time you have an idea what is where and you can avoid it if need be. :twisted:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2009 07:14

It is a gimmick.

Jane's Defense Weekly," published the text said, according to information disclosed by the Indian army,


The reporters obviously are making things up.

For one Jane's does not seem to have reported anything like that - but, I could be wrong in that respect.

Then comes the obvious goof up: "disclosed by the Indian Army". An MKI crossing the border cannot be reported by the Army - EXCEPT in China, everything there is PLA (including the political parties).

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2009 07:17

Singha wrote:not just ladakh (demchok) but numerous intrusions in sikkim also.

the unusual alacrity of IA/IAF opening AGLs, funding E-W roads and relocating flankers to tezpur
indicates we see it coming but cannot predict when (possibly some internal economic or political upheaval or assessment of a weak moment in India could trigger)...as also the fwd looking
announcement of mountain strike corps and Agni-5.

we are trying material and psyops means to close the "window" as quickly as possible...maintain the status quo with no bloodshed.


Would like to add Obama to the equation.

It could also be something timed with Clinton's visit - perhaps sending a message to the US not to give too much to India?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 03 Jul 2009 08:51

On the 13th of this month since the invasion of Pakistan, the Indian Air Force continued provocation, causing extreme tension between the two countries military confrontation, as an example to prevent the unexpected large-scale mobilization of forces China


What is this? What invasion of Pakistan on 13th?

Looks like a scenario/war game

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2009 09:23

The CHinese report seems a bit unbelivable to me, an SU-30 MKI going as far as Chengdu region, thats way too deep in peacetime for a miltary aircraft to intrude.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 03 Jul 2009 16:28

Aditya_V wrote:The CHinese report seems a bit unbelivable to me, an SU-30 MKI going as far as Chengdu region, thats way too deep in peacetime for a miltary aircraft to intrude.



Its the best way to get the chinks to light up their radar systems.

With the new AEW assets, we would have garnered quite a bit of EW information.

May be the probe did not go as far as chengdu, but even a little ways would have gotten a fairly interesting radar response. 8)

Someone is finally thinking on the right lines! :D

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Drevin » 03 Jul 2009 20:51

Now imagine desi fgfa with rs-172 over chengdu. wicked stuff. 8) First flight of pak-fa will really be a red letter day.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby k prasad » 04 Jul 2009 14:47

Willy wrote:The computer power thing sounds like a whole lot of bull to me. Who in their right minds would leave a power switch in a place that was so easily accessible when it can cause such a catastrophe. Something else going on here


Well, maybe, just maybe, the same guys who lost a Mars mission because they confused units...

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/

Sh** like this happens... nothing we can do about except become more vigilant. Sometimes, stuff that seems self-evident isn't so till the error occurs, after which, we all go... Ohh, so thats how it is!!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby govardhanks » 05 Jul 2009 11:51

Su-30 MKI is it a maintenance nightmare? the double engine aircrafts require high maintenance is it true?
In Red flag exercise, i have seen various blogs and forum telling about maintenance of su-30MKI.

My question is how much does it cost to maintain F-22, The USAF stealth fighter, when compared to indian su-30MKI?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shameek » 05 Jul 2009 19:42

^^ AFAIK we maintained our aircraft very well during Red Flag and they were never down due to maintenance issues. We were cautious due to the fact that we were far from home with limited spares and equipment.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 06 Jul 2009 17:55

govardhanks wrote:Su-30 MKI is it a maintenance nightmare? the double engine aircrafts require high maintenance is it true?
In Red flag exercise, i have seen various blogs and forum telling about maintenance of su-30MKI.

My question is how much does it cost to maintain F-22, The USAF stealth fighter, when compared to indian su-30MKI?

It is really unfair to compare the maintenance cost of a stealth fighter with a non stealth fighter. F-22, being a stealth fighter, would obviously have a much higher maintenance cost than any non stealth fighter.
Manufacture and maintenance of stealth a/cs is a highly precise engineering which cannot be compared with that of a non stealth a/c. I had once read an interesting incident regarding this. During F-117's full scale development phase, one of the prototypes was found to have much higher rcs than others. After inch by inch examination of the a/c, the reason was found to be that a single screw in the fusage was not tightened 100%! This demonstrates the level of precision required in maintenance of stealth a/cs.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby govardhanks » 07 Jul 2009 14:22

Then f-22 is double the maintainence nightmare then su-30mki. stealthness is not thing , it also does require same time, cost and personnel may be almost double. For the comparsion we do have a world class aircraft in much higher numbers.. we make a difference which is what it indicates..

thanks parijat gaur for highlighting how sensitive is a stealth fighter and what compromises we have to make for it..

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby krishnan » 07 Jul 2009 14:42

Does stealth add to the maintainence nightmare?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby parshuram » 07 Jul 2009 15:00

Aditya_V wrote:The Chinese report seems a bit unbelievable to me, an SU-30 MKI going as far as Chengdu region, that's way too deep in peacetime for a military aircraft to intrude.


Also MKI's flying so deep in China and No PLAAF fighters were scrambled . Is it like they don't have a airbase near chengdu or it's just weird

and AFAIC China is quick to raise it's pitch had this been the fact i mean they summon the Indian ambassador in 2 at night for a political speech then there should have been a strong protest for a deep airspace violation by IAF fighters

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby andy B » 07 Jul 2009 15:00

krishnan wrote:Does stealth add to the maintainence nightmare?


Stealth brings a whole lotta things that the maintainers have to look out for in a stealth ac. For example take the Raptor in this aircraft you have the endo skeleton which holds everything from the avionics to the engines. This is covered by say a basic layer on top of this you have the exo skeleton which is made up of different stealth tiles. Think of these as the Anechoic tiles that they have on a submarine. These tiles flush fit normally to the nth mm the wider the gap between these tiles the higher the chances of increasing radar signature of the ac. The removing and replacing of these tiles is a process in itself. It has to be done properly so as to ensure the stealth remains and I suppose to an extent the aerodynamics and each tile out of place would probably induce drag.

To do maintainence these tiles are first removed and then you have access to the panels underneath.

While say in a MKI flanker you have direct access to the panels...hope that sums it up!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby aditp » 07 Jul 2009 16:39

Force Magazine reports in the latest issue:-

1.) Su-30 MKI to undergo mid-life upgrade starting 2014
2.) Bars radar to be upgraded with AESA antenna
3.) active skin - AESA T/R modules to be mounted in wing sections to provide > 180 deg FoV
4.) Al-31FP engines to be uprated by 20% with operating life increased to 6k hrs
5.) Conformal weapons station between engine pods for stealth (carries a prototype photo too!)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rakall » 07 Jul 2009 17:22

aditp wrote:Force Magazine reports in the latest issue:-

1.) Su-30 MKI to undergo mid-life upgrade starting 2014
2.) Bars radar to be upgraded with AESA antenna
3.) active skin - AESA T/R modules to be mounted in wing sections to provide > 180 deg FoV
4.) Al-31FP engines to be uprated by 20% with operating life increased to 6k hrs
5.) Conformal weapons station between engine pods for stealth (carries a prototype photo too!)


If possible please scan and post.. the photo & article, too..

russia dont have an operationalized AESA yet.. so thinking of active skin type AESA elements may be too optimistic at this juncture..

1. It is good to have the AESA alone - wonder what an AESA of that size with so many modules can do with MKI's onboard power..
2. Engine uprating & increased life too is good.. Not that MKI is suffering bcoz of lack of thrust..
3. Not sure if conformal weapon station does much good -- compared to what the huge size & also compressor exposed directly itself throws out interms of RCS, would a confromal weapon station make much difference? (lets see the photo anyway)
4. MKI has the space & power available for AESA skin elements - but has the Russian AESA tech matured enough.? I think they still have to reduce the size/weight of elements to make it good for skin AESA... OTOH - 2014 is still good 5years away; enough time to do a lot..
Last edited by rakall on 07 Jul 2009 18:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby sombhat » 07 Jul 2009 17:27

rakall wrote:If possible please scan and post.. the photo & article, too..

russia dont have an operationalized AESA yet.. so thinking of active skin type AESA elements may be too optimistic at this juncture


Dont worry sir, article belongs to Prasun Chor-Gupta. Must be one of his wet dreams.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 07 Jul 2009 18:53

guys, this is force we are talking about. kindly DO NOT post anything on BR related to force that violates copyrights.
thanks for the cooperation.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby naird » 07 Jul 2009 18:55

rakall wrote:
If possible please scan and post.. the photo & article, too..



I guess this link ......

http://www.forceindia.net/specialfeaturereport4.aspx

Report is open source ...access to all

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby ajay_hk » 08 Jul 2009 12:42

IAF to have 230 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter planes by 2015: Antony
Replying to supplementaries during the Question Hour, Antony said since 1996 IAF has procured 98 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft.

"By 2015, we plan to have a fleet of 230 Sukhoi fighter aircraft," he said.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Nihat » 08 Jul 2009 13:05

Replying to supplementaries during the Question Hour, Antony said since 1996 IAF has procured 98 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft.


This should considerably reduce speculation on the no. of MKI in service with the IAF.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby aditp » 08 Jul 2009 13:40

rakall wrote:2. Engine uprating & increased life too is good.. Not that MKI is suffering bcoz of lack of thrust..


The thrust along with conformal stations increase is expected to give the MKI supercruise ability...as per the article that is

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Jul 2009 18:50

An interesting news item.

AESA Radar Options Displayed

Competing against the US aerospace giants is France’s THALES Group, which is proposing its RBE-2 AESA, which has been under development since 2003, and will be available from next year. The RBE-2 along with the OSF infra-red search-and-track system is being proposed for installation on board 90 of the IAF’s 230 Su-30MKIs on order.


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