Su-30: News and Discussion

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shiv
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 25 Aug 2009 17:16

Vishnu wrote:I couldnt for the life of me get my pilot Yuri to explain just how he initiated a flat spin (ie ... what control inputs) ... My Russian translator had no clue what a flat spin was ... Yuri kept going on about angle of attack ... but I never quite understood why a high angle of attack was required to initiate a flat spin in a horizontal plane (am sure BRfites would know)... anyway, its all there on tape ...


Well Vishnu I'm no guru and I really want to see that video of yours. But having watched my own Aero India videos of the MKI again and again I have found that the flat spin comes immediately after a nose-up and a really small diameter loop - almost a Kulbit that makes the aircraft lose a lot of energy and all its forward velocity. When the aircraft is flat and not moving forward it starts descending. At this stage I have noticed that the canards are placed with one side up and the other side down - i.e they are both pointing in opposite directions.

Somehow the MKI seems to be so stable in that attitude that it starts losing altitude without tumbling - i.e. in that flat, upright position, and with the canards in "crosswise" positions as described above it appears that the plane begins a flat spin as it descends rather than an uncontrolled descent.

I don't know what is done then - perhaps the TV nozzles may be pointed down and thrust increased to put the plane into nose-down. The recovery from the flat spin always seems to be a nose down and acceleration into faster forward flight.

Just my guess. Did your flat spin come after a Kulbit/loop?
Last edited by shiv on 25 Aug 2009 17:41, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited to change "tailplane" to "canards"

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Bob V » 25 Aug 2009 19:54

Bob V wrote:
George J wrote:If the plane in the background is the "MKI" that Vishnu Flew, then what is this a/c which was seen in Malta in 2005???

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia-- ... 0904330/L/



I think this is same a/c which took part in Aero India '05 or '07.....maybe a prototype for validating new technologies.


This camo was also spotted in 2001...
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... su30-1.JPG (serial no. seems to be 05 )
is this the same a/c ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 26 Aug 2009 05:06

Vishnu wrote:Hi Guys ... It is a Su-30 MKI ... cross-checked this ... didn't unfortunately check out the exact number etc ... the plane is with Sukhoi ... its fully operational ... I think for validating technologies and being used as a demonstrator ... but yes, the quality of the cockpit (and I realise this is superficial) was a bit shocking ... what you can't see in the pictures are the panel gaps between the MFDs and the console. However ... what struck me was how "clean" the rear cockpit was ... Not as many switches as the rear seats of the other jets I have flown on. Simple ... and functional. MFDs were very easy to understand.

Lets not make a big deal about the "quality" of the cockpit. It works just fine. Read my older posts on Red Flag. I regret I don't have answers to many of the questions you may have ... Yuri Valchuk, my pilot spoke only Russian ... and the translator couldn't understand my questions ... I found Yuri's answers mismatched !

Anyway, at some stage ... I will put up in-cockpit footage of what a thrust-vectored flat spin looks like from inside the cockpit.

Thanks
Vishnu


Vishnu, thanks for your great reports. really appreciate your journalism. just wanted to let it be known that I recently had the chance to see a Thunderbirds F-16 (operational) cockpit. and looking at the state of the displays and peeling off paint, I thought it was a dis-used example just out there for display. I cross-checked with the USAF lady standing nearby and she said it was an operational example.

believe me, even USAF examples in use, not necessarily company examples kept shining and glistening, are not what you see in pictures such as the regular F-16 cockpit photo floating around the internet.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby andy B » 26 Aug 2009 05:25

^^^ True that I have seen quite a few pics in AFM and ACM of cockpits of Hornets, Falcons, Eagles ityadi where they are quite worn out...hell some of the articles that had jets operating in the middle east were even some what dusty :eek: so the general principle is I guess as long as it works, is functional its all good onlee

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby andy B » 26 Aug 2009 05:29

Shiv saar: on your post about the flat spin do you reckon that in addition to the canard and the tvc the wing also plays a part in that when the airframe is at zero air speed and starts descending the wing area being so huge in combination with the body creates drag which reduces the speed of the fall so its kind of creating lift in a way even though actually its producing drag :-? my heads hurting now trying to think about this :((

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 26 Aug 2009 05:55

andy B wrote:Shiv saar: on your post about the flat spin do you reckon that in addition to the canard and the tvc the wing also plays a part in that when the airframe is at zero air speed and starts descending the wing area being so huge in combination with the body creates drag which reduces the speed of the fall so its kind of creating lift in a way even though actually its producing drag :-? my heads hurting now trying to think about this :((


Welcome to the club of speculative aerodynamics expertise. :D. I am sure the wings of any aircraft will act as drag slowing it down but there seems to be something about the design of the MKI that allows it to keep coming down that way to make a 180 degree or greater flat turn without beginning to tumble out of the sky in an uncontrollable spin which is what most aircraft would do.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby andy B » 26 Aug 2009 06:05

^^^ Well Doc then it all sort of makes sense as you mentioned the nozzles and canards help in directional orientation in that I think at start the canards and TVC keep the nose way up and AoA high then it stops and has zero velocity and at the same time the blended body wings create enough drag that it doesnt just start tumbling down at which point the nozzles then kick in (in conjunction with the canards) to again change the AoA and drop the nose down to then start accelarating again....hmph I have bought an aerodynamics book this weekend time to rip up the sucka and read it from end to end ....I am gonna get to the bottom of this.... :evil:

I also think that the controlling surfaces in general are huge on an mki or for that matter on the flanker design hmmm if there was a ratio of size of the controlling surfaces to size of aircraft I am sure the flanker would have a huge +ve ratio there which then also sort of provides greater control....on that note the Eurofighter also comes to miind where compared to the size of the aircraft the canards are literally huge and are very very active when the plane is pulling off crazy stunts...now that I think about it if Newton got to see this mki baby waltzing around in the sky wonder what the poor guy would think :twisted:

Also saar while I agree that any aircrafts wings would create drag in such a situation the mki's would create more so due to their size I think...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Igorr » 27 Aug 2009 16:04

A brief review about some NIIR's radars including Bars

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Aug 2009 17:00

Ok Dileep was mentioning that Leading Edge Flaps AESA of L- Band type developed by Tikhomirov as shown in their brochure on Igorr's blog is simbly not possible , its a PR by them

L Band Active Phased Array for Airborne Radars

L Band Array

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Igorr » 27 Aug 2009 17:22

Austin wrote:Ok Dileep was mentioning that Leading Edge Flaps AESA of L- Band type developed by Tikhomirov as shown in their brochure on Igorr's blog is simbly not possible , its a PR by them
:mrgreen: It's PR too, but PR sometime has much in reality...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 27 Aug 2009 19:00

Igorr wrote:
Austin wrote:Ok Dileep was mentioning that Leading Edge Flaps AESA of L- Band type developed by Tikhomirov as shown in their brochure on Igorr's blog is simbly not possible , its a PR by them
:mrgreen: It's PR too, but PR sometime has much in reality...


Sure , but if Dileep has a reason to believe its more PR then real thinge , I will take his word , may be we can discuss it here if its technically foreseeable.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby George J » 28 Aug 2009 00:51

Igorr wrote:A brief review about some NIIR's radars including Bars


Very good write up Igorr...thank you .

I am almost in tears...Mr. Bekirbayev write up proves that the IAF drivers don't always lie to me. :twisted:

Does anyone know how to get www.niip.ru to come up in english? The version of the site had a tiny Union Jack (meaning English) icon.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Igorr » 28 Aug 2009 01:44

George J wrote:Does anyone know how to get http://www.niip.ru to come up in english? The version of the site had a tiny Union Jack (meaning English) icon.
http://babelfish.yahoo.com

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby JaiS » 28 Aug 2009 05:29

Igorr wrote:A brief review about some NIIR's radars including Bars


Keep up with your great work Igorr ! Also, I noticed a discussion which you were having with another gent on your blog where you mentioned.


Indeed, I met both figures. If you can get for me an argument (and a source) why 15/4 is more reliable figures than 20/8, I would be appreciative.



In regards to your above comment, you can refer to two documents posted on NIIP's website.

1. Reference 1 - scroll to the very last page, it has a comparison of Bars with Irbis-E.

2. Reference 2.

Furthermore, never have the figures of 30/8, or 20/8 been claimed for the Barsik / Bars-29 which is derived from the Bars, but the figures have consistently stayed at 15/4. I could be wrong, and do hope that is the case, but I am more inclined to believe the 15/4 figure for Bars.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Igorr » 28 Aug 2009 11:13

JaiS wrote:Furthermore, never have the figures of 30/8, or 20/8 been claimed for the Barsik / Bars-29 which is derived from the Bars, but the figures have consistently stayed at 15/4. I could be wrong, and do hope that is the case, but I am more inclined to believe the 15/4 figure for Bars.
Were 15/4 figures, that you mention, after 3rd stage of Su-30MK/MKI avionics upgrade or before? If it was before, the bigger number of 20/8 is rather explainable. If it's after, I wonder what figures could be before, 10/2? As we know, no upgrade is made in the name of itself. Each upgrade must give some input in performance to justify itself.

As to about my source, first of all BR info about Su-30MKI figures 20/8:

"The radar can track and engage 20 targets and engage the 8 most threatening simultaneously. "

ACIG presents the same figures too. There are some additional sources that speak about 20/8.

My guess 15/4 was on BARS initially, but further was rised to 20/8 after DSP and software upgrade (which made in bulk part by the Indians BTW).

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby George J » 28 Aug 2009 11:19

Igorr:
Not Bablefish...NIIP had an English version (with a little UK flag-Union Jack icon). Since we cannot find it I cannot make a point about not trusting shiny brochures or OEM website on some very important features.

Also the 20/8 number is just that a....a number. Don't sweat on it.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Aug 2009 10:55

Speaking of numbers, damned if i didn't read about 15/6 recently... :-? can't remember where though.

CM.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Igorr » 29 Aug 2009 11:28

Cain Marko wrote:Speaking of numbers, damned if i didn't read about 15/6 recently... :-? can't remember where though.

CM.
BARS is on service about 7-8 year. No static namber of TWS/engaging/range could be acceptable during so long period of time while we know, it's upgraded.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Ranjan » 29 Aug 2009 19:22

http://www.ndtv.com/news/blogs/reaching ... h_love.php

Vishnu Som's programme on his flight on the Su-30MKI. Scheduled telecast tommorrow on NDTV.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vishnu » 30 Aug 2009 00:14

In-cockpit footage I filmed in a Su-30 MKI of a thrust vectored flat spin. This includes the build up to the flat spin so keep watching !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKMS6zgV ... 33eca271b3

Enjoy
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Igorr » 30 Aug 2009 00:46

Vishnu wrote:In-cockpit footage I filmed in a Su-30 MKI of a thrust vectored flat spin. This includes the build up to the flat spin so keep watching !

You're great, Vishnu! I even seeing it on the screen felt dizziness :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby durvasa » 30 Aug 2009 19:25

Vishnu Som's flight on Su-30MK on NDTV 24x7 right now, if anyone is interested

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shyam_K » 30 Aug 2009 20:03

Vishnu wrote:In-cockpit footage I filmed in a Su-30 MKI of a thrust vectored flat spin. This includes the build up to the flat spin so keep watching !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKMS6zgV ... 33eca271b3

Enjoy
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV


I believe the aircraft you flew in was the SU-35UB (two seat trainer), which has many features in common with SU-30MKI.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby JaiS » 30 Aug 2009 21:09

Shyam_K wrote:I believe the aircraft you flew in was the SU-35UB (two seat trainer), which has many features in common with SU-30MKI.


FWIW, another defence reporter Suman Sharma flew in the same plane and called it the MKI instead of the Su-35UB. She has multiple posts detailing her flight but take a look at this one. On closer examination of the first picture it can be seen that it is marked with an Irkut logo, leading me to the conclusion that the plane is an IAPO product. But, Su-35UB is a KnAAPO product. Next, the only Su-35UB I am aware of has a tail number of 801.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 30 Aug 2009 22:05

durvasa wrote:Vishnu Som's flight on Su-30MK on NDTV 24x7 right now, if anyone is interested


Good program by Vishnu. Very informative and sensible. Defence reporting is coming of age with this kind of report but the public doesn't know it yet - only the jingos understand. I recorded it.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 30 Aug 2009 22:11

I believe gagan's ATV graphics (bi-colour one) was also featured on it !

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby sunny y » 30 Aug 2009 22:50

Shiv Sir....I missed the programme. I wasn't at home actually......

Can you please upload that recording on you tube ?

Thanks

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 31 Aug 2009 00:03

Vishnu wrote:In-cockpit footage I filmed in a Su-30 MKI of a thrust vectored flat spin. This includes the build up to the flat spin so keep watching !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKMS6zgV ... 33eca271b3

Enjoy
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV


Hi Vishnu,

I have watched your program on NDTV today and it was great. Thanks for putting this up.
But I am little wondering, why are you calling Russian version of FGFA as an Indian stealth fighter. I (we all) believe that the Indian version would be the different one from the Russian one which is currently being built. The Indian version would take at least few more years before its first flight. Could you please elaborate this a little more?

Thanks,
-Sanjib

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 31 Aug 2009 00:38

sunnyyy wrote:Shiv Sir....I missed the programme. I wasn't at home actually......

Can you please upload that recording on you tube ?

Thanks


The programme has been uploaded on NDTV site ...

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/indias_s ... f_soon.php

Scroll it down to the bottom .... and you can see it ...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby JaiS » 31 Aug 2009 01:16

SanjibGhosh wrote:
The programme has been uploaded on NDTV site ...

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/indias_s ... f_soon.php

Scroll it down to the bottom .... and you can see it ...


Thanks Sanjib. Quoting Vishnu from that program:

IAF has 98 Su-30MKI in service as of July 2009.

Image

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 31 Aug 2009 01:33

Suman Sharma is reporting that the Brahmos missile (A2G) integration with the MKIs and its first firing test has been delayed to 2010-11. Well, better late than never , because this integration will be a game changer. The IAF Vice Chief was there in MAKS 09 conducting meetings with Irkut.

LINK:

But I dont understand why can't our own Defence media come to a conclusion over the numbers of Su-30MKIs? Suman in her above post mentions:
The IAF operates three squadrons of the Sukhoi-30MKI aircraft, and has approximately 60 aircraft in its inventory, all of which would have the upgraded data systems, digital glass cockpit, and other systems on board, after the contract is signed for upgrade.


Its been reported widely that the total squadrons with the MKI is 5.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby JaiS » 31 Aug 2009 01:33

From Suman Sharma's blog.

Indo-Russian negotiations on Sukhoi upgrade to conclude in Oct this year


The Indian Air Force (IAF)'s mainstay heavy weight fighters, the Russian Sukhoi 30MKI aircraft to be upgraded, will undergo two types of upgradation programmes.

One of the upgrades will be the structural modification of the aircraft to have the air version of the Brahmos missile installed on it. Active negotiations are on for Brahmos integration on the aircraft. Sources have indicated that the IAF is looking at around three years to recieve the modified aircraft.

The second upgrade for the existing fleet of the fighter is called the 'deep upgrade', which includes enhanced combat features, systems and avionics, which would increase the flight performance of the aircraft and the variant of this upgrade would keep the aircraft in service for a longer duration.

The technical negotiations between the IAF and ICDS of Russia, which have been going on for sometime, are likely to conclude in October this year, said Borodich.

The biggest feature of the deep upgrade, is the inclusion of the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar.



More details at the blog.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Vishnu » 31 Aug 2009 10:53

Hi Sanjib ... while India will incorporate its design elements into the FGFA ... I am told that not all purchases by India will necessarily be of the two seat variant. Hence, the first flight of the FGFA in a few months will, fundamentally, be the first flight of India's stealth fighter ... at least as far as core aerodynamics are concerned of the single seat version. Again, on the basis of my conversations with those in the know ... there is a genuine concern that it may already be too late to fundamentally modify the single seater ... ground testing is at an advanced stage and incorporating fundamental changes ... ie. additional plumbing for external tanks etc ... may be very difficult to do at a later stage. At the same time, incorporating Indian avionics should not be as tough .. Thanks

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby George J » 31 Aug 2009 12:21

Define Irony:

From Suman's Blog:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S ... C00488.JPG

:D

I am still confused about Su-30MK/MKI Bort 722. IIRC there is a "Show Number"-the MKI second prototype of 1998 vintage was 06 not 02 and Production Bort # 722 seems to be continuation of the series production of Su-35 (single seater) 701 onwards.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 31 Aug 2009 12:45

^^ The above link ain't working

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Jagan » 31 Aug 2009 13:03

F-16IN Flying Suit while flying a Sukhoi. The russians seem to be a sport about it though.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby sunny y » 31 Aug 2009 13:04

Thanks a lot Sanjib :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Shankar » 31 Aug 2009 15:04

I
n-cockpit footage I filmed in a Su-30 MKI of a thrust vectored flat spin. This includes the build up to the flat spin so keep watching !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKMS6zgV ... 33eca271b3

Enjoy
Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
NDTV


after a long time -really enjoyed your program from Russia with love -shankar

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 31 Aug 2009 16:43

Thanks Vishnu. In fact this is a great news and if this happens
then I think India will have a squadron strength of FGFA by 2016.

Well, then how would be oure production line by 2016:

1. LCA MK2 ....
2. MMRCA .....
3. FGFA ....

:eek:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 31 Aug 2009 18:39

Shiv,
Could you please upload the video on youtube.
NDTV link is not working for me.


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