Su-30: News and Discussion

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 17 May 2010 10:33

Operating Sukhois: A Malaysia-India-Russia love story

Asghar said Malaysia's involvement with the two countries had since blossomed to a 'love affair' with the Su-30MKM purchase. 'We have come a long way and hope to reinforce our relationship with Russia and India over the long term to chart our air defence and combat capability.

'I believe strongly in this partnership, especially with the support of the proven Irkut Corporation and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in terms of obtaining reliable spares and equipment,' he said, referring to the pioneer batch of six pilots, four engineers and 53 technical crew sent to Russia and over 100 technical crew sent to India for training.

Malaysia's newest air base in Gong Kedak, a town in Kelantan state, is the home of the Flanker. 'This is a strong demonstration of a high level of friendship and diplomacy which is very commendable,' said Raju, who leads a team of four instructor pilots, one weapons systems officer, two engineers, 22 technicians and two administrative servicemen.

While the rest complete their two-year tour of duty in July, the IAF pilots will be retained until August. Raju said the trilateral Russian-Indian-Malaysian collaboration was something unique as it provided a stepping stone for the country to groom its next generation of airmen. 'Thus far, our assessment of the RMAF crew shows they are of an exceptional high standard and I am confident the current crew will pass on their expertise and experience to others to take Malaysia to the next level of competency.'

Konnov said that while his team was responsible for the aircraft's serviceability, performance, snag rectification and technical support, they also ensured the Malaysians mastered the required skills. 'The Sukhoi is a very complex and complicated aircraft to operate. As Malaysia is still in its infancy, it will be wise to retain the Russian and Indian specialists to fully acquire the proficiency and realise its potential.'

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 May 2010 12:28

Bound to make the Singaporeans nervous with the Malay's flying around the flankers. The exchange of ideas between IAF and RMAF will add to their capabilities adding to S'poreans nervousness.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 May 2010 12:47

@Nayak - 'The exchange of ideas between IAF and RMAF...'

Sir, Isn't Malaysia closer to Pakistan in military/defense terms ?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 18 May 2010 14:20

Manish_P wrote:Sir, Isn't Malaysia closer to Pakistan in military/defense terms ?

How did you come to that? Just because they have a muslim majority??

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 18 May 2010 14:35

Dmurphy wrote:Manish_P wrote:
Sir, Isn't Malaysia closer to Pakistan in military/defense terms ?

How did you come to that? Just because they have a muslim majority??

Or may be because they have lot of ethnic chinese!?! How is this "in topic" for this thread?

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 May 2010 14:40

Dmurphy wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Sir, Isn't Malaysia closer to Pakistan in military/defense terms ?
How did you come to that? Just because they have a muslim majority??

IIRC, Malaysia had offered its subs to pak during 71...don't think their relationship with pak would have deteriorated too much since then...

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 18 May 2010 14:57

Sir With due respect .. Subs !!! Malaysia did show some really big heart . Such a high value asset and that for a force that was taking a beat was really a brave or rather insane gesture , IIRC i beleve Indonesia did offered 19 fighter jets to TSP rather then malay's offering them subs

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 May 2010 15:43

parshuram wrote:Sir With due respect .. Subs !!! Malaysia did show some really big heart . Such a high value asset and that for a force that was taking a beat was really a brave or rather insane gesture , IIRC i beleve Indonesia did offered 19 fighter jets to TSP rather then malay's offering them subs

Maybe my bad...trying to dig out info since i vaguely remember such a thing being mentioned ( maybe in BRF?). Again, might have confused with the Indonesian offer!!!

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 18 May 2010 17:05

Manish_P wrote:@Nayak - 'The exchange of ideas between IAF and RMAF...'

Sir, Isn't Malaysia closer to Pakistan in military/defense terms ?

yup, rop is a common binding factor. malaysia provides large number of work permits to pakis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 May 2010 09:07

now that a new centerline pylon on Su30 is being developed and stressed for a 4-5t brahmos-A, we have an opportunity here to make a devastating cluster bomb weapon.

imagine a giant weapon as long as brahmos, but fills up that recess completely and square in cross section. should be a wind corrected
dispenser of a modular family of AP and AT cluster munitions/bomblets. in the AT role, with each intelligent IIR guided bomblet weighing
around 15kg, and given the space I figure 100 such could be carried in rows inside the dispenser and su30 flying at medium level release
a CLOUD of these over a enemy tank area or column and let the F&F mode do the work. A squad of 4 MKIs could release 600 such
bomblets if more such are mounted below the wings.

a 5t FAE bomb could be carried - I think the rus have a FAB-3000 (6600lb) weapon. only blackjacks and backfires have been able to
use it so far, but now - so can we

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 May 2010 09:11

need a bit of redesign to become slimmer but easily doable
http://www.flickr.com/photos/d-f/3439664530/

I see a even fatter weapon in the background. perhaps a FAB-5000

when this fat boy blows his load, you dont want to be anywhere around!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 May 2010 05:09

Singha wrote:now that a new centerline pylon on Su30 is being developed and stressed for a 4-5t brahmos-A, we have an opportunity here to make a devastating cluster bomb weapon.

imagine a giant weapon as long as brahmos, but fills up that recess completely and square in cross section. should be a wind corrected
dispenser of a modular family of AP and AT cluster munitions/bomblets. in the AT role, with each intelligent IIR guided bomblet weighing
around 15kg, and given the space I figure 100 such could be carried in rows inside the dispenser and su30 flying at medium level release
a CLOUD of these over a enemy tank area or column and let the F&F mode do the work. A squad of 4 MKIs could release 600 such
bomblets if more such are mounted below the wings.

a 5t FAE bomb could be carried - I think the rus have a FAB-3000 (6600lb) weapon. only blackjacks and backfires have been able to
use it so far, but now - so can we

You might like this JP233 kind of a cluster bomb munitions dispenser then..such a weapon as you describe could wreak havoc on infantry or armoured formations..

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 22 May 2010 20:19

X-post

IAF Sukhoi Fleet to be Equipped with Homemade Nirbhay Missiles

India’s ‘Nirbhay’ cruise missile is slated to be incorporated in the Suhkoi Su-30MKI Flanker strike aircraft, increasing the nuclear weapon capability of the Indian Air Force (IAF) beyond that of free-fall weapons only. The ‘Nirbhay’ will be the third indigenous weapon to equip the Su-30MKI besides the ‘Brahmos’ supersonic cruise missile and the ‘Astra’ medium-range air-to-air missile. The induction of the ‘Nirbhay’ cruise missile to the Suu-MKI Flanker aircraft will give the decisive edge the IAF needs in terms of long-range and strategic strike capability.

That would be a huge achievement...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 May 2010 22:26

India Today/Sandeep Unnithan

The IAF has begun the "Super 30" project to upgrade its Sukhoi-30MKI fighter with new radars , mission computers,electronic warfare systems abd Brahmos Missiles. Recently cleared by CCS , the Sukhoi Design Bureau will start upgrading two prototypes in Moscow this year . The first two Super-30 will fly into India in 2012 after which upgrades will be incorporated into the last batch of 40 Sukhoi being lic built at HAL Nasik from 2015. The IAF operates around 100 Su-30MKI's and will add another 170 in the next decade.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 May 2010 22:40

The first two Super-30 will fly into India in 2012 after which upgrades will be incorporated into the last batch of 40 Sukhoi being lic built at HAL Nasik from 2015. The IAF operates around 100 Su-30MKI's and will add another 170 in the next decade.

So, 60 Su-30s are being set aside as Brahmos carriers?

Also, the total Su-30s listed is 100+170=270. Wasn't the "official" figure 230 after the additional 40 Su-30s deal signed recently?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 May 2010 22:43

There was no deal on additional 40 Su-30 signed but its in progress and will be signed soon , the original deal was 230 Sukhoi plus the 40 new which will be signed.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 30 May 2010 01:51

Kartik wrote:
Singha wrote:now that a new centerline pylon on Su30 is being developed and stressed for a 4-5t brahmos-A, we have an opportunity here to make a devastating cluster bomb weapon.

imagine a giant weapon as long as brahmos, but fills up that recess completely and square in cross section. should be a wind corrected
dispenser of a modular family of AP and AT cluster munitions/bomblets. in the AT role, with each intelligent IIR guided bomblet weighing
around 15kg, and given the space I figure 100 such could be carried in rows inside the dispenser and su30 flying at medium level release
a CLOUD of these over a enemy tank area or column and let the F&F mode do the work. A squad of 4 MKIs could release 600 such
bomblets if more such are mounted below the wings.

a 5t FAE bomb could be carried - I think the rus have a FAB-3000 (6600lb) weapon. only blackjacks and backfires have been able to
use it so far, but now - so can we
You might like this JP233 kind of a cluster bomb munitions dispenser then..such a weapon as you describe could wreak havoc on infantry or armoured formations..

I believe that there is a better option than that :--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97_Sensor_Fuzed_Weapon
Ofcourse if we could develop such munition in the new future...

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 May 2010 13:11

Austin wrote:There was no deal on additional 40 Su-30 signed but its in progress and will be signed soon , the original deal was 230 Sukhoi plus the 40 new which will be signed.

Thanks for the clarification. So, the number of Su-30s to be in service in IAF in future as of now matches the "official figure"

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 May 2010 13:27

Avinandan wrote:
I believe that there is a better option than that :--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97_Sensor_Fuzed_Weapon
Ofcourse if we could develop such munition in the new future...

India has apparently purchased these CBU-97s already.

link

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 31 May 2010 09:35

Russia wins large contract to modernize Indian Su-30MKI fighters – media
http://en.rian.ru/world/20100530/159217594.html

India has placed orders with the Russian defense industry to modernize Su-30MKI Flanker-H fighters produced in India under the Russian license, India Today magazine reported in its June issue, without disclosing the sum of the contract.

The project codenamed Super 30 stipulates the installation of new radars, onboard computers, electronic warfare systems and BrahMos supersonic missiles on 40 Su-30MKI fighters, the magazine said.

The Indian Air Force currently operates about 100 Su-30MKI fighters and plans to produce another 170 aircraft in the next 10 years under the Russian license.

India has a long history of defense ties with Moscow. The current cooperation program comprises about 200 joint projects, including the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.

The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 lbs). It can effectively engage ground targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace, a joint Indian-Russian venture, produces and markets BrahMos supersonic missiles. The sea-based and land-based versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian Army and Navy.

NEW DELHI, May 30 (RIA Novosti)

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 31 May 2010 11:54

Su-30 has enough space for extra avionics & heat sink and could serve the purpose on Indian growler well. And now they have radar reduction measures for it as well. Hopefully they consider that as well when they think of upgrading.

Su-30 MKI future version can jam or diminish performance of enemy radars allowing PAK-FA to fly in even more safely and do its mission.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 31 May 2010 12:49

Sumeet wrote:Su-30 MKI future version can jam or diminish performance of enemy radars allowing PAK-FA to fly in even more safely and do its mission.

And have an AESA radar as well..maybe the Phazotron Zhuk-AE active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar as well?

kash · Post by **kash** » 04 Jun 2010 10:12

Regarding the MKI carrying Brahmos...
The air launched version is designed to weigh 2500 kgs unlike the canister fired version weighing 3300 kgs. So weight is clearly not the problem for Su-30 MKI if carried in the centerline. The air force is ambitious to load 3 such missiles (addition one each under the air intakes making it 2500*3=7500 kgs) plus other ordnances which might prove to be a challenge. Besides with one missile from one of the air intakes being launched, the balancing of weight might become an issue for the air craft. It can’t unnecessarily release 2 missiles as salvos just like bombs are released against a single target.
What do u think might be the solution??? carry jus one??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jun 2010 10:17

it will only carry one. they found problem with the wing idea. and even with just one there will be some g limit restrictions probably. a heavily loaded F15E is restricted to around 4.5G moves iirc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jun 2010 10:40

KumarG wrote: The air force is ambitious to load 3 such missiles (addition one each under the air intakes making it 2500*3=7500 kgs)

Where did you get this assumption from?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Jun 2010 10:56

Singha wrote:now that a new centerline pylon on Su30 is being developed and stressed for a 4-5t brahmos-A, we have an opportunity here to make a devastating cluster bomb weapon.

imagine a giant weapon as long as brahmos, but fills up that recess completely and square in cross section. should be a wind corrected
dispenser of a modular family of AP and AT cluster munitions/bomblets. in the AT role, with each intelligent IIR guided bomblet weighing
around 15kg, and given the space I figure 100 such could be carried in rows inside the dispenser and su30 flying at medium level release
a CLOUD of these over a enemy tank area or column and let the F&F mode do the work. A squad of 4 MKIs could release 600 such
bomblets if more such are mounted below the wings.

a 5t FAE bomb could be carried - I think the rus have a FAB-3000 (6600lb) weapon. only blackjacks and backfires have been able to
use it so far, but now - so can we

Why not a nuclear weapon ? Some of our neighbours can get wet undies and brown shorts and the friendly neighbourlhood dhobi can do good business.

See we SDRE are so nice we are developing the economy of the neighbouring countries.

K

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jun 2010 11:06

a nuclear weapon will be much smaller. MKI needs no structural upgrade at all for that...it could carry 6 and not even sweat. even jags do it.

kash · Post by **kash** » 04 Jun 2010 13:33

@ Shiv..

i had read it in an article.. of course these articles put up on the web aint reliable.. i jus considered it and tot of its practicality.. which seemed impractical to me... so i put it up here to get others views..

@ Singha..

what kind of a nuclear weapon are you talking about??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jun 2010 14:29

KumarG wrote: i had read it in an article.. of course these articles put up on the web aint reliable.. i jus considered it and tot of its practicality.. which seemed impractical to me... so i put it up here to get others views..

I think it was Brahmos Aerospace that was initially advertising 3 Brahmos per Su-30. But that was later reduced to one. I don't think the IAF had any choice.

kash · Post by **kash** » 04 Jun 2010 15:58

^^^^
oh okay..
well coming to ground reality..
what would be main advantages of having the Brahmos on a SU or any fighter aircraft..?? with the advanced satellite technology,given the range of the missile.. the target can be neutralized by launching the missile from a ship or probably a land-based systems which is being developed..
Am not against the Brahmos on the su.. am trying to figure out the advantages..

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 04 Jun 2010 16:00

Along with FAE, I hope we develop a baby monster canister, filled with tiny sharp blades, ball bearings to drop on the heads of exposed infantry, designed to explode 5 ft off the ground, just making finely minced kheema of the paki abduls.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jun 2010 16:26

KumarG wrote:^^^^
oh okay..
well coming to ground reality..
what would be main advantages of having the Brahmos on a SU or any fighter aircraft..?? with the advanced satellite technology,given the range of the missile.. the target can be neutralized by launching the missile from a ship or probably a land-based systems which is being developed..
Am not against the Brahmos on the su.. am trying to figure out the advantages..

In a 4-5 hour sortie an Su 30 can take out a ship 1200 km from the Indian coast in one direction. A few hours later it can take out another ship a similar distance away in another direction. In each case the Su 30 can stay 300 km away from the ship to launch its missile - and currently only a US Navy carrier group would be able to get an attacking aircraft at 300 km, 1200 km from any coastline. No ship can do that.

For example - if the "LeT Navy" took over an island in the Indian ocean, the Navy would be needed to retake the Island. The Su 30s would take out any Packee of Chnkee support ships trying any funny stuff.

kash · Post by **kash** » 05 Jun 2010 10:27

^^^^
oh okay.. the Brahmos on the Su makes the whole system versatile!!

But the Brahmos has sacrificed a lot of its range for its sheer speed and acceleration..
would it have been more advantageous to have a comparably lees speed and more range??
Probably have a range of around a 1000 km and a speed of under mach 2..?? the Tomahawk has 2500km!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jun 2010 10:34

KumarG wrote:^^^^
oh okay.. the Brahmos on the Su makes the whole system versatile!!

But the Brahmos has sacrificed a lot of its range for its sheer speed and acceleration..
would it have been more advantageous to have a comparably lees speed and more range??
Probably have a range of around a 1000 km and a speed of under mach 2..?? the Tomahawk has 2500km!!

If my aunt had a d*ck she would have been my uncle no? If a missile was made with your specs it would not have been Brahmos. Brahmos is Brahmos because it has a 300 km range and is supersonic.

Have you read the title of this thread?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Jun 2010 12:21

he he he he

KumarG... BR is a tough neigbourhood .. no quarter asked and no quarter given !!

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 05 Jun 2010 12:28

^^^ shiv saar seems to be unusually tough these days ...back to shiny metal shed ....for pious activities

kash · Post by **kash** » 05 Jun 2010 17:32

shiv wrote:
KumarG wrote:^^^^
oh okay.. the Brahmos on the Su makes the whole system versatile!!

But the Brahmos has sacrificed a lot of its range for its sheer speed and acceleration..
would it have been more advantageous to have a comparably lees speed and more range??
Probably have a range of around a 1000 km and a speed of under mach 2..?? the Tomahawk has 2500km!!
If my aunt had a d*ck she would have been my uncle no? If a missile was made with your specs it would not have been Brahmos. Brahmos is Brahmos because it has a 300 km range and is supersonic.

Have you read the title of this thread?

Hmmm.. well am sure seeing the lingual standard of the community..

any ways Brahmos is gonna remain Brahmos.. it aint gonna affect the missile if a couple of civilians criticizes it or praises it..
am also not looking for the missile to have my specs!! this is a "discussion" forum not an encyclopedia.. and i believe all the possible views of a subject can be given light.. so i was thinking of the tactical advantages or disadvantages with these specs "IF" the missile were to posses it..
also am not going off-topic.. IF the brahmos was a slower missile.. the weight might have decreased.. which is an advantage for the "Su".. more importantly.. if the Brahmos were to have more range.. the Pilot and the "Su" need not face the risk of going deep into hostile territory..
not every one in the world think in the same frequency.. no can help that..

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Jun 2010 18:02

KumarG wrote:
shiv wrote: If my aunt had a d*ck she would have been my uncle no? If a missile was made with your specs it would not have been Brahmos. Brahmos is Brahmos because it has a 300 km range and is supersonic.

Have you read the title of this thread?
Hmmm.. well am sure seeing the lingual standard of the community..

Err.. I think you mean linguistic standard.

any ways Brahmos is gonna remain Brahmos.. it aint gonna affect the missile if a couple of civilians criticizes it or praises it..
am also not looking for the missile to have my specs!! this is a "discussion" forum not an encyclopedia.. and i believe all the possible views of a subject can be given light.. so i was thinking of the tactical advantages or disadvantages with these specs "IF" the missile were to posses it..
also am not going off-topic.. IF the brahmos was a slower missile.. the weight might have decreased.. which is an advantage for the "Su".. more importantly.. if the Brahmos were to have more range.. the Pilot and the "Su" need not face the risk of going deep into hostile territory..

We have a 1000km land attack missile in the Nirbhay.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jun 2010 18:12

I believe granit does around 650m at mach1.5 (some claim mach 2.5) but its 10m long x 7.5t vs brahmos 8.4m x 3t.

the granit is a lot fatter than brahmos going by the weight.

dont think any supersonic ASM or cruise missile with 1000+ km range exists in the world...would be far too big for practical carriage. only way
to cover such distances is subsonic + turbofan.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Jun 2010 18:16

KumarG wrote:^^^^
oh okay.. the Brahmos on the Su makes the whole system versatile!!

But the Brahmos has sacrificed a lot of its range for its sheer speed and acceleration..
would it have been more advantageous to have a comparably lees speed and more range??
Probably have a range of around a 1000 km and a speed of under mach 2..?? the Tomahawk has 2500km!!

Something called a MTCR? Brahmos cannot exceed 300 Kms? Even if you take it to the dealer and ask him to remove the governor.

Missed that memo, eh?