Su-30: News and Discussion

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby akshay » 09 Jul 2010 16:08

naird wrote:
nachiket wrote:^^I have always wondered why TACDE used Mig-27s? They are responsible for developing IAF's aerial warfare tactics. Wouldn't Mig-21s or 29s have been more appropriate?


My biggest question is -- why No mig 29's ? is it due to their relatively low strength ? and also why is the Su 30 a part of TACDE so late in the game ? Its been a decade since IAF has been playing with Su 30 and now they are giving the planes to TACDE ?


the news seems to be misleading or it must be some new feature on the SU's that need re-planning.
need some clarification me too ..anyone in the know pls oblige?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 09 Jul 2010 16:16

i can just see a pilot doing a +9g turn and eating halwa at the same time... DDM-itis!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 09 Jul 2010 16:27

Lalmohan wrote:i can just see a pilot doing a +9g turn and eating halwa at the same time... DDM-itis!


They are trying to develop MRE for long distance and long duration tasks. It includes MRE heating at hot surfaces like bonnet of tanks, vehicles etc. In air, the long range fighters have different criteria. Bawa did not say that pilots will eat during high G's. Bawa could have meant the amount of food per packet for a pilot due to G's. I see no problem with the report.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 09 Jul 2010 16:40

^^^Please to remember that TACDE is not only about aerial warfare aka dog fight and BVR. It covers the entire gamut of air power. Just as an example, the pilots train at TACDE for the Fighter Strike Leader (FSL) and Fighter Combat Leader...AFAIK, the former is for Ground Attack/Interdiction and latter for Air Combat. Apart from these, you have the SAM Crews and Fighter Controllers and Heptr Pilots.

As for the MiG-27 and Mig-21, these were the most numerous of the types in IAF and represented AD and GA aircraft and some time in future, SU-30MKI will be most numerous type. Other a/c and crews have been to TACDE for training. Also, these a/c need not be based permanentally with TACDE.

Also, IMO, squadron worth of strength of SU-30 is on higher side. And it should not only be seen as replacement for MiG-27; I'm sure FCL students will also cut their teeth against this fighter.

PS: Is SU-30 the most dominant fighter in IAF inventory after MiG-21?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Jul 2010 18:30

finally ! after speculating about MKI to TACDE for 3-4 years now ! :D I guess MKI will mean that TACDE will no longer need to maintain two fighter types.

nachiket, TACDE is far more than a A2A training school, it's a comprehensive finishing school for IAF covering all aspects of aerial warfare.

rohit, think so.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kanan » 09 Jul 2010 21:27

Seniors, any news yet on the details of MKI upgrades??

Plz clarify if MKI can have IRBIS-E without a new engine? I remember that china turned down Irbis-e when offered, but there was also a Jane's report that said Su-30 MKK has a airframe very different from MKI and the RADAR,which weighs 600+kg would require complete overhaul of the fly-by-wire sysyems of MKK? many thanx!

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Jul 2010 22:06

have you read the last few pages of this thread ?

why don't you do so and compile a list of what will go into super-30 upg ? we will all appreciate it.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 09 Jul 2010 22:15

Rahul M wrote:nachiket, TACDE is far more than a A2A training school, it's a comprehensive finishing school for IAF covering all aspects of aerial warfare.



I know, but development and training in A2A tactics must be a major part of what they do. A mix of Mig-21s and 27s with the 21s outnumbering the 27s IMO would seem like the right aircraft for TACDE to operate to a layman. The thing is I don't know if TACDE ever had some dedicated Mig-21s to use as they like (like they had 27s). I have only ever heard about them operating 27s, and you can't learn A2A combat in a 27.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Jul 2010 22:20

they had both, floggers were added much later IIRC. the very informative BR article is somehow missing but the point being it is not primarily an A2A school, it's important but not necessarily any more major than interdiction (say)

as it is IAF's philosophy has always been aggressive and therefore in favour of sustained ground attack operations both in support of ground troops and independently. focusing overmuch on A2A is a luxury of defensive air forces. ;)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nachiket » 09 Jul 2010 22:23

Rahul M wrote:they had both...

Ah, aall ij well then. :mrgreen:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby naird » 09 Jul 2010 22:48

rohitvats wrote:As for the MiG-27 and Mig-21, these were the most numerous of the types in IAF and represented AD and GA aircraft and some time in future, SU-30MKI will be most numerous type. Other a/c and crews have been to TACDE for training. Also, these a/c need not be based permanentally with TACDE.


I dont have much knowledge about how TACDE functions, so only can say this much.

That depends on how TACDE is structured. If TACDE is responsible for conducting courses through out the year to the cream of pilots then 'Yes' it definetly needs to have permanent a/c's out there. But if there are only two or one course in a year then maybe No.

rohitvats wrote:Also, IMO, squadron worth of strength of SU-30 is on higher side. And it should not only be seen as replacement for MiG-27; I'm sure FCL students will also cut their teeth against this fighter.


I agree, a squadron seems overkill just for TACDE. But the good part is a squadron of Su 30 can be deployed in Gwalior ..and aircrafts can be used from these sqadron for TACDE purposes. During the times when TACDE sessions are not in place then these squadrons can be used for normal operational activities. How the instructors and other crew will be rotated amongst the squadron is something that needs to be seen.

rohitvats wrote:PS: Is SU-30 the most dominant fighter in IAF inventory after MiG-21?

[/quote]

I guess that depends on the role right ? But anyways i would say it is must potent aircraft in the arsenal atleast till MRCA comes along. This is my opinion -- But i dont belive aircrafts like Su 30 will ever be used in SEAD mission unless absolutely needed.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Jul 2010 22:55

he means dominant in numbers.

nachiket, BR's IAF page lists only mig-27 under TACDE current holdings, so I guess the 21's were replaced by these. but I find it difficult to believe that the FCL course is conducted on mig-27, may be they get other aircraft temporarily we know nothing about ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 10 Jul 2010 14:19

^^^IAF website article on TACDE clearly mentions MiG-21bis...

On more point - we seem to have an image of TACDE in line with what everyone saw in TOP GUN and the Navy Fighter Weapon School. What we saw was a bunch of aircrews being put through the regime of learning advanced skills of their main fighter type - Tomcat in the picture. Hence, IMO, we're asking questions about why no Mig-29 or SU-30MKI(earlier).

IMO, a course like FCL or FSL is more than the platform - it is about the "philosophy" of doing a particular job - be that of A2A or A2G. Yes, the tactics en all will be governed by the fighter type in question and the capabilites it has (or has not)...but the at broad level, the attributes of conducting a type of operation will be same.

IMO, TACDE would already have the nuances of each aircraft type sorted out to letter T and syllabus created.... And these are imparted to the pilots as they come up flying ladder.

Another important point - IAF of today is a mix bag of capabilities with varying a/c type. Earlier, with exception of Mirage-2000, did any of the a/c represent quantum change in capability? While each a/c had some strengths (MiG-29 with BVR - which MiG-23 already had before it came), MiG-21bis and MiG-27 represented the capability in each role - A2A or A2G. So, if TACDE used these a/c to teach the FCL or FSL course, it did not matter if you came from MiG-21/23 or MiG-27/Jaguar Squadron.

Now with the transition in IAF capabilities (even the MiG-21 is BVR), TACDE will need new a/c to serve as an example of new capabilites. AFAIK, a fully evolved Su-30MKI will have all the capabilities present in IAF and inherent in various a/c types (present and future) - BVR/LGB/ALCM/Agile Dog-fighters....So, can be used to train crews from various a/c types.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 10 Jul 2010 14:32

- at what point in a pilots career do they send for FCL or FSL course ? rookie fresh out of training school or seasoned vet having flown his selected operation type for a few years?
- since he only knows the type used by his operational squadron, does these FSL/FCL trainees fly to gwalior in their own birds from all over and the TACDE instructors have a few sets of a/c for their own use (kind of like red flag where the 'red force' is a F16 squadron used by the instructors, while trainees fly their own planes in)
- are FSL/FCL trainees sent from all types of a/c at same time, or they try to pool together trainees from same type (say mig29 or m2k) into one course by staggering the course timings in a year.
- how many parallel classes batches go on there and how many courses per year?

some of this may not be public src info, so pls exercise caution and due judgement if you know.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 10 Jul 2010 17:59

Singha

- you send a reasonably experienced guy to TACDE. You need to be FCL,FSL or FIS to be a CO so you cannot do it too eraly or leave it for too late

- yes you take your aircraft


Besides FSL,FCL TACDE also conducts other courses from time to time.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby ameya » 10 Jul 2010 18:31

Lohegaon updated by google earth to March'10 imagery

Has 14 Su-30Ks parked, what happened to the rest 4 ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 10 Jul 2010 18:37

ameya wrote:Lohegaon updated by google earth to March'10 imagery

Has 14 Su-30Ks parked, what happened to the rest 4 ?


Ah the usual 4 late Latifs of Lohegaon! They were in their hangars still putting on their make up and were late for the photo session. Some things never change. :P

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Bihanga » 10 Jul 2010 18:41

Most probably they must be sitting in tarmek for overhauling or they must be put up for training session.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby naird » 11 Jul 2010 03:22

rohitvats wrote:^^^IAF website article on TACDE clearly mentions MiG-21bis...

On more point - we seem to have an image of TACDE in line with what everyone saw in TOP GUN and the Navy Fighter Weapon School. What we saw was a bunch of aircrews being put through the regime of learning advanced skills of their main fighter type - Tomcat in the picture. Hence, IMO, we're asking questions about why no Mig-29 or SU-30MKI(earlier).


Absolutely True -- but then we can form opinions on only what we have seen around the world. So keeping that in mind -- yeah Top Gun'esque would be the ideal institute for the top air force pilots to hone in their skills. Even CCS (Combat Commanders School) -Pakistan is formed on the same lines.

rohitvats wrote:
IMO, a course like FCL or FSL is more than the platform - it is about the "philosophy" of doing a particular job - be that of A2A or A2G. Yes, the tactics en all will be governed by the fighter type in question and the capabilites it has (or has not)...but the at broad level, the attributes of conducting a type of operation will be same.



Rohit - If its all about philosphy of doing a particular job -- Then it doesnt explain why only top 1% of the pilots are selected for TACDE. If its all about explaining how a particular job should be done then IMO this should be imparted to all the pilots not just a few.
IMO its not just about the philosphy -- it should be about actually Flying tactics -- actualy combat -- refining your dog fighting skills -- and hence the need for top of the line IAF fighters.


IMO, TACDE would already have the nuances of each aircraft type sorted out to letter T and syllabus created.... And these are imparted to the pilots as they come up flying ladder.

rohitvats wrote:
Another important point - IAF of today is a mix bag of capabilities with varying a/c type. Earlier, with exception of Mirage-2000, did any of the a/c represent quantum change in capability? While each a/c had some strengths (MiG-29 with BVR - which MiG-23 already had before it came), MiG-21bis and MiG-27 represented the capability in each role - A2A or A2G. So, if TACDE used these a/c to teach the FCL or FSL course, it did not matter if you came from MiG-21/23 or MiG-27/Jaguar Squadron.


Mig 29 was probably the best a/c in IAF arsenal. To refine your fighting skills it would be very important for IAF to practice against the top of the line fighters. For example - If the pilot is Mig 21 pilot -- then it would be very important for him to know how to counter a Mig 29 like aircraft -- reason being Mig 29 is a natural contender to F16. how Mig 21 pilot should force Mig 29 pilot to fight based on Mig 21's strength -- this in IMO should be the basis of TACDE.It becomes all the more important considering that BVR till today has been over hyped -- most of the fights still go into WVR range.

rohitvats wrote:Now with the transition in IAF capabilities (even the MiG-21 is BVR), TACDE will need new a/c to serve as an example of new capabilites. AFAIK, a fully evolved Su-30MKI will have all the capabilities present in IAF and inherent in various a/c types (present and future) - BVR/LGB/ALCM/Agile Dog-fighters....So, can be used to train crews from various a/c types.


But the question still remains with regards to Su 30MKI. My gripe is - Why so late in the game ? If TACDE is a important institute then this should have been much earlier. Ofcourse my humble mind suggests that IAF may have been sparing Su 30's and Mig 29's as and when the course requires it --and now they formally anounced induction of Su 30 to TACDE.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 11 Jul 2010 16:30

naird wrote:
But the question still remains with regards to Su 30MKI. My gripe is - Why so late in the game ? If TACDE is a important institute then this should have been much earlier. Ofcourse my humble mind suggests that IAF may have been sparing Su 30's and Mig 29's as and when the course requires it --and now they formally announced induction of Su 30 to TACDE.


naird I don't know the answer, but I can suggest one. It may be like asking why a qualified doctor with an MBBS under his belt had to spend another 10 years doing a specialist degree and gaining experience before he could become a consultant on his own.

It takes a few years before tactics are refined and honed and during those years Su 30 pilots have interacted with all sorts of other air forces in India and abroad - and now you have the first Su 30 pilots who have spent a decade on the machine. These people will be experts - knowing every strength and weakness and are in a great position to work out top gun tactics.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 12 Jul 2010 10:40

naird wrote:
Absolutely True -- but then we can form opinions on only what we have seen around the world. So keeping that in mind -- yeah Top Gun'esque would be the ideal institute for the top air force pilots to hone in their skills. Even CCS (Combat Commanders School) -Pakistan is formed on the same lines.

<SNIP>



naird, honing skills on a/c type and learning the advanced tactics of a particular a/c as a fighter pilot is different from learning the "philosophy" of doing air battles and A2G missions.

Look at it from this pov - a Mirage-2K pilot may be all proficient and Top Gun when it comes to his a/c but can he plan and lead couple of flights or a Squadron of Mirage-2K into battle? The idea is to be able to manage formations - crews reporting to TACDE are fairly senior pilots - AFAIK, with 6-8years of service and flying. And the reason only some make it to a premium institute like TACDE is same as everywhere else - all men are not equal. In the steep pyramidical structure of IAF, only the best will be picked up and groomed for higher levels involving more complex tasks.

As for CCS of PAF - again, it is not only about tactics of an a/c. This is what wiki says (from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Strike_Fighter_Tactics_Instructor_program#Course):

Pilots are selected by Air HQ in Rawalpindi normally after nine to twelve years of service. The successful graduates would hope to command a squadron in the rank of wing commander. The courses are tough and some candidates inevitably fail to make the grade. There are three courses offered at the CCS, the Combat Commanders Course lasting for 4/5 months, a 3 month weapons course, and a 4/5 week fighter integration course.


As for learning the advanced tactics of MiG-29 - I've heard some "funny" stories of what a MiG-29 driver is supposed to able to do with his a/c - which no PAF or PLAAF pilot will find humorous. So, rest assured, as I said last time - we've sorted out the a/c syllabus to the letter T. And if I remember the presentation in 2009 BR meet in Bangalore - there snaps of IAF exercise in progress where Jags had come from other locations along with TACDE a/c and crews

Hope this helps.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 12 Jul 2010 10:49

the expansion of CCS itself explains their job description. people still carry misconceptions about topgun. even USN and USAF realised that focusing exclusively on A2A tactics wasn't conducive to creating a better force. post GW both forces changed their schools to reflect a much more comprehensive focus, something TACDE has been doing almost since its inception.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 12 Jul 2010 20:31

I have even heard of IN Harriers going over to TACDE. This was a long time ago so i am not too sure of the source..can anybody confirm? Do IN Pilots get to go through TACDE?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 13 Jul 2010 10:07

There is serious DACT regime implemented by TACDE and IAF and IN Harriers could have been part of that....where there not stories about Harriers and DACT? Does anyone remember?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Jul 2010 10:10

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_432.shtml


After the arrival of the first Harrier batch, INAS 300 began conducting intensive flying sorties, war gaming and tactical exercises against IAF aircraft. The intensity of the war gaming exercise 'Trishakti', off the western coast of India, in April 1986, attracted US Navy Hornets, Vikings and even Trackers, interceptions becoming frequent, henceforth. On 23 Oct 1990, Cdr SK Sharma 'jumped' an F/A-18 Hornet, some 80 miles from it's fleet. The excellent photographs brought back revealed the carrier to be the USS Enterprise with the aircraft belonging to the VFA 192 SF squadron of the US Navy. In Nov 1990, INAS 300 commenced their yearly trips to TACDE for DACT with the IAF.

At the time the actual capabilities of the Sea Harrier against their supersonic airforce counterparts were speculative at best. The combat sorties flown by the squadron revealed that the Sea Harrier could hold it's own against the IAF MiGs with a fair amount of confidence. Eventually, the IAF did begin to admit that the Sea Harrier was superior to the MiG-21. A new dimension was added to the meaning of air combat and maneuvering space when the squadron commenced DACT against the Mirage-2000s of the elite No.1 'Tigers' squadron of the IAF, where the ASF would expose and exploit any minor error committed . Not to be outdone, INAS 300 took up the challenge with great determination. In the ensuing battle, the White Tigers gave the "Tigers" of the IAF, a run for their money, leading to an eventual decision by Mirage pilots to carry out DACT with the Sea Harriers on a regular basis from now on, in order to sharpen their nails.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rkhanna » 14 Jul 2010 09:29

^^^^ thanks a bunch..yes that is the article i remember reading...was going a bit crazy trying to remember it or wondering if it was a figment of my imagination.lol

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 14 Jul 2010 09:31

B.harry rip :(

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rad » 15 Jul 2010 16:54

If it is true that a su30 mki has been given to TACDE only now after nearly a decade of sukhoi operation

Then i think it is a crime , usually when a new A/ C comes to service the first thing usualy done is to send it to any TACDE

type of institution to evolve new tactics based on the strengths of the new AC .

rad

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Bihanga » 15 Jul 2010 18:19

rad wrote:If it is true that a su30 mki has been given to TACDE only now after nearly a decade of sukhoi operation

Then i think it is a crime , usually when a new A/ C comes to service the first thing usualy done is to send it to any TACDE

type of institution to evolve new tactics based on the strengths of the new AC .

rad


Part of the reason why the delays in MKI's arrival to TACDE is its level of Operational Flexibility as well as introduction of technology IAF had never seen before. MKI has its own unique place in IAF and is way ahead of what we may have thought in terms of Air Combact. There are lots of Operational requirements and obligation related to pre-flight needs to obey with before letting Aircraft join Topguns and for that reason IAF may have taken some time in terms of giving squadran serviceman a training coupled with introduction of all new Doctrinal concept. At the end of the day, it is not important wheather how soon you let MKI to join TACDE rather how innovative you are with Airwarfare concept and resources you need to create to fulfill the same.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kanan » 18 Jul 2010 21:36

Hmmmm.........I believe the MKI is set for a major upgrade within the next five years that it might come back a completely new one! India would not let go of its top gun without sufficient upgrades to face new fighters like F-35 or the Eurocanards!

>An AESA is almost certain! A good AESA with the RADAR Aperture of MKI will outdo almost any other fighter RADAR in service, at least in terms of power! also new generation jammers! Israel will be the partner, most probably!

>DIRCM suite like MUSIC and UV MAWS like Guitar-350 might also be added!

>New airframe and 117S or an even better engine is almost certain! That would mean new fly-by -wire and new cockpit controls!

Looks like MKI is going to stay in TACDE for a long time! Pilots will need all the support they can get to master the aircraft and its tactics! :wink:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Raveen » 18 Jul 2010 21:52

Kanan wrote:
>...New airframe...


Huh?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kanan » 18 Jul 2010 21:58

Raveen wrote:
Kanan wrote:
>...New airframe...


Huh?


Let's say a modified airframe to reduce RCS like Su-35BM! Read somwhere that the RCS of MKI is 10m2 while Su-35 BM is around 1m2! IAF has indeed expressed interest to bring the RCS down ! So, IMHO, an airframe modification or a new airframe is quite probable! Plz revert for corrections or clarifications!! :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 19 Jul 2010 07:34

Kanan wrote:
Raveen wrote:Huh?


Let's say a modified airframe to reduce RCS like Su-35BM! Read somwhere that the RCS of MKI is 10m2 while Su-35 BM is around 1m2! IAF has indeed expressed interest to bring the RCS down ! So, IMHO, an airframe modification or a new airframe is quite probable! Plz revert for corrections or clarifications!! :)


New airframe == new aircraft.

No one is going to take an empty shell and put everything from old aircraft into an new one. If it is a new airframe, then it will be a new aircraft, and will no longer be called a SU-30MKI but a totally new plane.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 21 Jul 2010 21:47

Elta, EADs to Pitch for LCA Radar
The radar will also be considered for the SU 30 MKI upgrade and modernisation projects for front line fighters of the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 22 Jul 2010 04:45

A nearly seven minute video on SU-30 MKI

http://www.defencetalk.com/sukhoi-30-mki-_mpeg4-mp4-27614/

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 23 Jul 2010 08:16

Russia Gets Su-35S by Year-end, Libya to Follow
Pogosyan says he has “no knowledge” of a purported 40-60 aircraft government-to-government Indian deal for the Su-35 that could be proposed if the aircraft does not make the short list for India’s medium fighter competition, expected to be decided at year’s end. In addition to the Su-35, the Su-30 also has “good export prospects,” he says, mainly from existing customers.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 23 Jul 2010 09:19

I have a strong feeling, we could have a "top up" order of another 100 Flankers over those already planned..whether it will be su35 or mki remains to be seen. mki does offer more flexibility in A2G while the su35BM has *astonishing* specs for the single seater air superiority role.

perhaps 100 Su35BM with Irbis-E mashallah.

NRao
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2010 09:47

Is some report implying that India will buy 40-60 Sukhois if the MiG does not make the MRCA cut? That would be interesting! OR the 35 could be causing confusion among DDMs?

naird
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby naird » 23 Jul 2010 09:51

^^ I strongly feel that we should buy more MRCA's of the shelf instead of Su 35's. We need a good amount LO platform which will be the first one's to be used in case of WAR.

A question -- Any MRCA contender which can match the specs offered by IBRIS ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 23 Jul 2010 13:31

I have a feeling the additional 42 Su-30s we're supposed to have signed are in fact Su-35s. DDM must have reported it as Su-30MKI.

And exactly how many Su-30MKIs are being upgraded for
1) Carrying Cruise missiles
2) New radar and engines.


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