Su-30: News and Discussion

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 21 Oct 2010 23:59

Kakarat wrote:According to Vayu No.102 Squadron is being re-equipped with Su-30MKI and based at Chabua


Wow..so the No.102 Trisonics (Photo Recon) squadron is now back with Su-30MKIs ? I guess the name will stay the same in memory of the MiG-25R.

Weren't they earlier based at Bareilly?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 22 Oct 2010 00:21

Surya wrote:but things like 'aircraft were seen with modifications with nuclear bombs', 'aircraft were seen practicing toss bombing' and other such rubbish is the area of non proliferation ayatollahs and other like idiots from various institutes.


It is well known fact that IAF fighters were our first nuclear delivery platforms.

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/IAF ... _2000s.pdf

However everything else is a mystery.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Jagan » 22 Oct 2010 08:33

Kakarat wrote:According to Vayu No.102 Squadron is being re-equipped with Su-30MKI and based at Chabua


Is there a "Like" button that I can use on this post? :D

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Oct 2010 09:52

oh yeah...I still recall the head-on Mig25R takeoff in the SOTE VCD !! bring it on!

and more dual runways please....many of these housed tons of USAF hump transport ac in WW2....

they could also fly low over the brahmaputra and do the firefox michael gant charging at moskva wintip vortex thing...

tushar_m

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 24 Oct 2010 18:41

i recently had a privilege to chat with one of the DRDO guy

my first question was that su30mki has always been criticized of having a higher RCS that enables enemies to detect it easily so is DRDO or any of its branch working on some stealth features of the fighter ?

he said that yes the work is going on & then he suggested some thing interesting
he said that we had tested our intersection missile few months back & its a success

su30mki could be equipped with some A2A versions of the same so that even higher RCS is not gona matter. again the capability could come in handy against the SAM systems also.

is there a existing technology similar to this i know that US has some A2A missiles that can shoot down enemy BVR missiles ????

does russia have such technology ????

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Re: Su-30: News and DiscussionIt is well known fact that IAF

Postby Surya » 24 Oct 2010 18:48

It is well known fact that IAF fighters were our first nuclear delivery platforms
.


Yes and thats my point - quietly lots of things can be done.
Its not determined by a aircraft stationed in one place

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 24 Oct 2010 19:30

tushar_m wrote:he said that we had tested our intersection missile few months back & its a success


What is an intersection missile?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Pratik_S » 24 Oct 2010 19:38

tushar_m wrote:i recently had a privilege to chat with one of the DRDO guy

my first question was that su30mki has always been criticized of having a higher RCS that enables enemies to detect it easily so is DRDO or any of its branch working on some stealth features of the fighter ?

he said that yes the work is going on & then he suggested some thing interesting
he said that we had tested our intersection missile few months back & its a success

su30mki could be equipped with some A2A versions of the same so that even higher RCS is not gona matter. again the capability could come in handy against the SAM systems also.

is there a existing technology similar to this i know that US has some A2A missiles that can shoot down enemy BVR missiles ????

does russia have such technology ????


Was that guy referring to Astra A2A missile for BVR interception of enemy aircraft ?? Would also like to know what does interception missile mean ??

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 24 Oct 2010 19:39

Perhaps "interception mijjile"

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby D Roy » 24 Oct 2010 19:44

Yeah I think it is "interception".

I wonder if this has anything to do with the Tsung missile which was reported last year.

http://india.gov.in/allimpfrms/alldocs/1980.pdf

Although there are some who say Tsung is just an RVV adder.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 24 Oct 2010 19:46

I think he means missle to intercept a A2A and shoot it down. I dont think it is so easy and never heard anyone having it. any gurus

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Nalla Baalu » 25 Oct 2010 07:13

IMVHO, the DRDO gentleman is musing aloud about possibility of extrapolating technology of PAD/AAD ballistic missile defence to BVR missile defence. With ABM technologies currently maturing, perhaps anti-BVR is next frontier.

Pratik_S wrote:
tushar_m wrote:...
he said that yes the work is going on & then he suggested some thing interesting
he said that we had tested our intersection missile few months back & its a success

su30mki could be equipped with some A2A versions of the same so that even higher RCS is not gona matter. again the capability could come in handy against the SAM systems also.
...


Was that guy referring to Astra A2A missile for BVR interception of enemy aircraft ?? Would also like to know what does interception missile mean ??

tushar_m

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 27 Oct 2010 09:42

well some thing like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Bal ... se_Program

but in a much small scale

since we pay a lot of attention to protecting the aircraft from enemy missile
stealth , better engine's , 2D-3D TVC ,jamming technology etc the list goes on & on

lets discuss the scenario su30 mki have 12 hardpoints

considering a flight of four su30mki in war times there are total of 12X4=48 hard points

generally su30 can carry 10XR77 each (by wiki)
with a weight of 4 "interceptor missiles" its could carry say 6 R77 that makes it total ( 6 BVR + 4 Interceptor )

now in battle with the 4 F16/SU27 all the fighters will fire there BVR missiles
& if there is a chance that our fighter could first fire his BVR missile then could protect himself from enemy missile using interceptor missile , make's the chances of survival 2-3 times as there is possibility of another missile fire (BVR) this will also improve the kill ratio

i am not good in explaining the thing but i think the gurus will understand what kind of concept i am taking abt :)

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby vic » 27 Oct 2010 12:13

I think DIRCM is also for missile interception only

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Oct 2010 14:57

with proper use of awacs and su30 radar, the kill probability against even the latest model f16's will be very high in BVR and then even without awacs guided WVR engagement and the numerical superiority, it would be very foolish of PAF to try and contest the skies in any conventional sense... we should expect some unconventional tactics... probably worth trying to guess what they might be?

against china, the more conventional large force engagement tactics will need to be further enhanced and refined

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2010 06:40

tushar_m wrote:now in battle with the 4 F16/SU27 all the fighters will fire there BVR missiles
& if there is a chance that our fighter could first fire his BVR missile then could protect himself from enemy missile using interceptor missile , make's the chances of survival 2-3 times as there is possibility of another missile fire (BVR) this will also improve the kill ratio


I am no guru. But if war is a story from 9 AM till 5 PM. You have described what might happen between 9-00 AM and 9-01 AM.

Imagine the outcome of your face off above. Say 60% Indian fighters are shot down for the loss of 40% of the opposition over hostile territory. The question is wtf were Air Defence aircraft doing flying over hostile territory? They were flying over hostile territory to escort attack fighters. Now those attack aircraft - having been protected by the escorts will attack the airfield from which the defending aircraft took off. Even one bomb on the runway can put that airfield out of action for a couple of hours. During those two hours more attacks will be mounted, both on the same airfield and on other targets. This time around the enemy interceptors cannot take off from that airfield and will have taken off from a more distant airfield. Hopefully they would have been picked up by our AWACS and engaged BVR - but in any case - they are flying in from further away and will have less fuel to engage our attacking aircraft and more of our aircraft will get through - getting airfields, radars and other installations. This will be followed by yet another attack - and so on.

The point I am trying to make is that talking of one engagement of 4 MKIs with 10 missiles each versus 4 or 6 other aircraft discussed in isolation with no broader context is meaningless.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 30 Oct 2010 09:51

The concept of using fighter a/c & AAM to counter Cruise missile and Ballistic missile is nothing new. On the failure & cancellation of Air borne Laser program, US re-activated its fighter based ballistic missile defense program. F-15 must be the obvious platform.

Once one masters the trade of intercepting missiles with missiles, its application is going to evolve from one area to another. Just as passive and active defense for Tanks against Anti-tanks missiles and rounds, it is only matter of time that such concepts is going to be replicated in fighter jets. While there is passive defense, with aggressive SAM options available to anyone and kill rate of SAM is equally impressive and some times greater than AAM, the addition of active defense is only a logical growth option for fighters.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 31 Oct 2010 14:27

Citation for 20 sqn CO reveals a lot on whats going on in the MKI units:

Wing Commander Sandeep Singh (17312) Flying (Pilot) was commissioned in the Indian Air Force as a fighter pilot on 22 Dec 1983. A recipient of Sword of Honour for standing first in the overall order of merit in his course, the officer is a Qualified Flying Instructor with A2 category and an Exceptional Test Pilot. Wg Cdr Sandeep Singh has over 4150 hours of flying and he is qualified on Su-30 MkI, Mig-29 and Mig-21 aircraft. He has been an instructor at the Air Force Test Pilots School, a flight commander of a Mig-21 Squadron, the project test pilot with the 1AF Su-30 Project team in Russia and is presently the Commanding Officer of a Su-30 Mk-1 Squadron. He has been commended by the Chief of the Air Staff for his dedication to duty. As a test pilot with the Su-30 Project team in Russia, he has been instrumental in evolving the navigation, display and weapon employment logic of Su-30 Mk I aircraft. The Su 30 Mk 1 is being hailed as a 'first of its kind' project In which the best of Russian and western technologies have been synergized to produce one of the most potent fighter aircraft in the world. Utilising his operational flying experience, professional knowledge and analytical approach, Wg Cdr Sandeep Singh spearheaded the integration team of Indian, Russian and Western specialists to ensure success of the Su-30 Mk 1 project. In view of his unparalleled knowledge of Su-30 Mk-1 operations and systems, he has been frequently called upon for consultations and briefings at Air Headquarters and various Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) labs on all issues related to the Su-30 Mk 1 programme. Wg Cdr Sandeep Singh was appointed as the Commanding Officer of a newly resurrected Su-30 Mk I Squadron on 15 Apr 04 and entrusted with the task of inducting the latest variant of Su-30 Mk 1 aircraft. Starting with a severely limited number of experienced pilots, engineers and technicians, he has led his team with personal examples to operallonalise the new aircraft, Despite the attendant pressures of forming a new Squadron, he has flown over 400 hours in the last one year. He has shown immense courage, exceptional skill and determination to successfully undertake pioneering missions on the Su-30 Mk I aircraft, such as the record breaking long duration flight of over 9 hour 30 minutes, solo low level aerobatics, air to air refueling and first time firing of guided munitions. For exceptional devotion to duty, The Hon'ble President is pleased to award 'Vayu Sena Medal' to Wing Commander Sandeep Singh.

tushar_m

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby tushar_m » 31 Oct 2010 16:15

Kanson wrote:The concept of using fighter a/c & AAM to counter Cruise missile and Ballistic missile is nothing new. On the failure & cancellation of Air borne Laser program, US re-activated its fighter based ballistic missile defense program. F-15 must be the obvious platform.

Once one masters the trade of intercepting missiles with missiles, its application is going to evolve from one area to another. Just as passive and active defense for Tanks against Anti-tanks missiles and rounds, it is only matter of time that such concepts is going to be replicated in fighter jets. While there is passive defense, with aggressive SAM options available to anyone and kill rate of SAM is equally impressive and some times greater than AAM, the addition of active defense is only a logical growth option for fighters.



thank you sir just the concept i wanna know about

does Russian's posses this technology ???
i haven't heard of India having such tech. also can our current A2A missiles could be modified for such a role ????

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Misraji » 31 Oct 2010 21:34

Aditya G wrote:Citation for 20 sqn CO reveals a lot on whats going on in the MKI units:
...snip...
Despite the attendant pressures of forming a new Squadron, he has flown over 400 hours in the last one year. He has shown immense courage, exceptional skill and determination to successfully undertake pioneering missions on the Su-30 Mk I aircraft, such as the record breaking long duration flight of over 9 hour 30 minutes, ...


It was the No 20 squadron that deployed to Red Flag last year.
That could explain the long flight hours.
Those flight hours can't possibly be a norm.

Good observation, Aditya :D

~Ashish

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Misraji » 31 Oct 2010 21:37

tushar_m wrote:thank you sir just the concept i wanna know about

does Russian's posses this technology ???
i haven't heard of India having such tech. also can our current A2A missiles could be modified for such a role ????


Mig-31s have an explicit cruise missile interception role.
No A2A missile exists as of now that can intercept ballistic missiles.

~Ashish.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 31 Oct 2010 22:33

one of the defining roles of the su-27 is/was continental air defence against cruise missiles, read tomahawk. in fact any of our fighters can shoot down cruise missiles once they are detected, subsonic objects flying in a straight line with no evasive maneuvers are much simpler to shoot down than say, enemy fighters. the problem is in detecting them, since CMs fly close to the ground. however with our evolved radar net that shouldn't be too big of a problem. the powerful on board radars should help as well.
far more dangerous are the LO cruise missiles that are being developed.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 31 Oct 2010 23:34

tushar_m wrote: thank you sir just the concept i wanna know about

does Russian's posses this technology ???
i haven't heard of India having such tech. also can our current A2A missiles could be modified for such a role ????


Yes, Russians have such technologies. It is nothing so great. If Cruise missile is within the visual range, you can even down them with a/c guns; no need for AAM missiles. Or, if you are adventurous, you can even try to tip the missile with your a/c wings as in WWII; the missile may hit the ground, if its flight system is not sound enough. For Short range ballistic missiles, you need missiles with good kinematic performance & range, say Meteor, with proper seeker & data link. Since it is mostly a boost phase interception, IIR seeker enabled Meteor or similar missiles will be good enough.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 05 Nov 2010 05:56

India To Improve Airbases Near China, Pakistan
Image
Last year, the Air Force Deployed Nuclear-Capable Sukhoi 30MKI Fighter Aircraft at Daulat Begh Oldhi, eight kilometers from the Sino-Indian border in Jammu and Kashmir, and at other airbases in the northeast.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 05 Nov 2010 13:27

^^^The deployment of SU-30MKI to DBO may well be a DDM.......AN-32 did the trial runs..but Su30MKI?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2010 13:54

good FUD though. did or did not :D

mki can and does take off very steeply on occasions , I am sure it can manage wherever a An32 did...the undercarriage is robust not f15 style.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2010 07:12

so, where is the jilebi news and pics about rambha firing the brahmos? royfc says so.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Div » 16 Nov 2010 07:27

SaiK wrote:so, where is the jilebi news and pics about rambha firing the brahmos? royfc says so.

Now this would be juicy.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 16 Nov 2010 10:14

Russian air force to get more Sukhoi-34s

Image

Russia’s Sukhoi aircraft company continues work on 32 Sukhoi-34 fighter bombers ordered by the Russian Air Force. Another consignment of such planes is due before January. Last July, several such jets successfully hit mock targets in the Russian Far East after flying non-stop all the way from a base near Moscow. The mission involved a mid-air refueling operation.


Sukhoi flight testing Su-34 fighter bombers

Image

Russian aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi has begun flight testing of a new batch of Su-34 fighter bombers ahead of their delivery to the Russian Air Force by this year-end. The advanced two-seat strike aircraft are undergoing flight trials at the Chkalov Aviation Production Association (NAPO) flight testing station in Novosibirsk, Sukhoi said.

The company was awarded a contract in 2008 to provide a total of 32 Su-34 fighters to the Russian Defence Ministry. The multi-role Su-34 fighter bombers, operated by the Russian Air Force, have been designed to attack land-based, sea- and airborne targets by day and night in all weather conditions.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 18 Nov 2010 05:21

X-post

BREAKING NEWS - Russia may sell Su-35 to China

Image
The new Su-35S is labelled a “4++ Generation” derivative of the baseline Su-27S Flanker B. It is a comprehensive redesign of the aircraft's systems, and employs a supercruise capable 117S variant engine. Depicted the second prototype during flight test. The Su-35S is expected to be the last Flanker variant to be mass produced before the PAK-FA enters full rate production (KnAAPO image).

Russia May Sell Su-35s to China
Defensenews

Breaking its earlier tradition of keeping China at bay when came to sales of advanced weapons, Russia is prepared to discuss selling its most modern Su-35 4++ generation fighters to China, said the deputy director of the Russian government arms export agency, Rosoboronexport. "We are ready to work with the Chinese partners in this direction," Alexander Mikheyev told reporters after the opening ceremony of China's Zhuhai Airshow 2010, according to the Russian official RIA-Novosti news agency.

Mikheyev said that Russia and China are in the initial stage of negotiations and will be discussing the features of the export variant of the Su-35 and how to integrate it with previously supplied Su-30 fighters and the locally assembled (under Russian license) Su-27s. A source in Rosoboronexport said that this contract would mark a departure from recent stagnation in Russian arms sales to China.


Russia ready to sell Su-35 fighter jets to China
RIA

Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Tuesday it was ready to hold talks with China on the delivery of advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to the Chinese air force. "We are ready to work with our Chinese partners to this end [Su-35 deliveries]," Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Alexander Mikheyev said at the Airshow China 2010, which is being held on November 16-21 in Zhuhai.

Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it planned to start deliveries of the new aircraft, billed as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology," to foreign clients in 2011 and produce Su-35s over a period of 10 years up to 2020.
China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition (Airshow China) is the only international aerospace trade show in China that is endorsed by the Chinese central government. The biannual arms exhibition has been held in Zhuhai since 1996.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Nov 2010 04:45

Russian Knights Prohibited Execution of "Cobra"

The Russian air force headquarters has forbidden airmen of the Russian Knights aerobatic group to perform the "Cobra" aerobatic maneuver, Nakanune.RU reports the commander of the Russian aerobatic team, Guards Lieutenant Andrey Alekseev, announced. According to him, reason for the prohibition was the age of the air fleet - "the airplanes we have, to put it mildly, are used, high-G flights have been made on them for 20 years already."

"A very geometrically precise is needed for doing the "Cobra" maneuver," Alekseev said, noting that this parameter can be violated in "used" airplanes. In addition, the Russian Knights commander noted that test pilots must give permission to perform the aerobatic maneuver after trial flights on one airplane or the other. "It is an exclusive which they demonstrate at air salons in a solo aerobatic complex - a specific man on a specific airplane," Alekseev added.

In Alekseev's opinion, almost any pilot would be able to do the "Cobra" after special training. There are four airmen in the Russian Knight's team who have full permission for executing aerobatic maneuvers using extreme regimes, zero speeds and outrageous angles of attack.

The "Cobra" is among the ultra-complex aerobatic maneuvers. Upon execution of this maneuver, the airplane sharply lifts up the nose until rotating backwards, but at the same time maintains the direction of flight. After that, the airplane returns to normal flight regime while practically not losing altitude at the same time.

Source: 18.11.10, Avia.RU /royfc.com


mmm.. 20 years is the cobra maneuver life!

---

btw, china needs only on Su35++, and they can clone the rest. Must salute them for that.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 22 Nov 2010 05:02

SaiK wrote:
btw, china needs only on Su35++, and they can clone the rest. Must salute them for that.


When the lobby to remove western defence sanctions against China is being done Russia will not keep quite.
It will up the choice and force PRC to get their best version.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Nov 2010 06:01

Sorry on the typo for "one".

Well, Russia is free to see its business prosperity what it seems best fit with its game plan. Not so long ago, it was feeling disgusted with China and there were reports on Russians being unhappy and would not provide anything latest and greatest.

Just for the reason we make a huge cry against weapons sale to pakis by the khans (though unfruitful), we must not just take this news without raising out voice on this issue.

Only if china and pakis are peaceful democratic nations like that of Mexico and Cannada for USA, we are in a vulnerable situation to accept military strategists especially to those we think have an excellent relationship to do advanced partnership deals etc.

When India said, relationship with USA is not to undermine our relationship with Russia, the same must be kept by our MAD friends.

India must be game as well in this peeing game as who got the most military hardware and the best. Military expenditure especially for homegrown and indigenous technologies is where we need to double up our investments. That way it secures the future for us, against such politics.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 22 Nov 2010 07:27

SaiK wrote:mmm.. 20 years is the cobra maneuver life!


The airframes for the airshows regularly undertake the high -G maneuvers and undertake the cobra like maneuvers literally everyday. Airshow-planes hence age much faster.

Notice that this is not the case with regular training sorties.

Unless it is required no operational plane would undertake such high-G maneuvers. For example at AI'07 and AI'09 IAF fielded operational Su-30 MKIs. You would notice that almost no high-G maneuvers are demonstrated by these operational fighters. This is a norm across all AFs in the world.

Unless of course if you send a
Rafale from the French Airforce or the EF from the RAF to AI-07 or AI-09 while MMRCA is going on.
Or take JF-17 to the world to prove its capabilities.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby DavidD » 22 Nov 2010 12:52

SaiK wrote:
btw, china needs only on Su35++, and they can clone the rest. Must salute them for that.


The difference between the J-11B and the Su-35 is small enough that it'd probably take China longer to reverse engineer the Su-35 than to indigenously develop the technology. That's why I don't think China will go for it.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Nov 2010 14:24

What the chinese managed to reverse engineer is the basic Su-27SK and if the reports are to be true they did a bad job at it , the SK are very old Flanker with very basic capability.

Russia will not sign any deal with China till the chinese give a firm commitment that they will respect IP and wont reverse engineer and they will also make sure reverse engineering is more difficult with loads of black boxes with proprietary code.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 22 Nov 2010 14:31

indranilroy wrote: <SNIP> For example at AI'07 and AI'09 IAF fielded operational Su-30 MKIs. You would notice that almost no high-G maneuvers are demonstrated by these operational fighters. This is a norm across all AFs in the world.
<SNIP>


The Su-30MKI demo was done by the CO of the Squadron and he categorically said (was quoted) that he will not put an operational machine to high-g regime......these will adversely impact the airframe and engine and he did not want the machine to go through the same.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Nov 2010 14:36

my theory is after paying for 250 flankers (made in knaapo and locally), the chinese made a lumpsum payment to Rus for the right to continue producing and adapting it, using as many local parts possible from supplied design drawings. the Rus would also have extended some help in integrating the WS10 engine and integrating that into the FCS/fuel control/ecu....for H&D purposes the extent of help is not revealed by mutual aggreement, just as we would not want to comment much on how much of Rus parts are humming inside the Arihant and what were the details of help provided. I have similar thoughts about some of the 'clones' of MAZ trucks and S300 missiles seen in PLA hands. substantial help might also have been obtained for the Yuan class sub.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 22 Nov 2010 14:56

Singha , the displeasure of not keeping to its promise on IP by chinese was made known at the highest level in public by no less then Putin and procurement czar V Popovkin , where the latter recently remarked during a deal to buy Iveco vehical for Russian Army that unlike other countries which
copies Russian product and dont pay for it , we pay for lic manufacturing it.

Chinese will be lic manufacturing the S-300PMU1 and customising it to their trucks much like we did with Smerch on Tatra , Lic manufacturing is fine but reversing engineering is another issue.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby DavidD » 22 Nov 2010 16:14

Austin wrote:What the chinese managed to reverse engineer is the basic Su-27SK and if the reports are to be true they did a bad job at it , the SK are very old Flanker with very basic capability.

Russia will not sign any deal with China till the chinese give a firm commitment that they will respect IP and wont reverse engineer and they will also make sure reverse engineering is more difficult with loads of black boxes with proprietary code.


I don't know what reports you've been reading, but the J-11B is much more advanced than the Su-27SK. They only reverse engineered the airframe, and even that has much more composite material and a redesigned intake. All the other systems are Chinese.

Marten wrote:
DavidD wrote:The difference between the J-11B and the Su-35 is small enough that it'd probably take China longer to reverse engineer the Su-35 than to indigenously develop the technology. That's why I don't think China will go for it.

If the gap is small, why will it take more time to apply the core skills of reverse engineering?


To reverse engineer something, you'd essentially need to get into the original designer's head and understand his thought process. It's a very long and difficult process. For example, have you ever taken a programming course? I'm sure someone here has. If you look at two people's projects for even a relatively short program(say ~1000 lines), you'd see completely different thought processes and methods of implementation. It's a real pain in the butt to read someone else's code even if you've written a program that does almost the exact same thing. It's much easier to improve your own codes than to try to understand someone else's, especially when the other person's codes don't come with proper annotation.

Besides, the real difficulty isn't in the design of the plane, it's in the construction of the parts. For example, it's useless to know the dimensions and functions of every part of the AL-41 engine if you can't manufacture the single crystal blades. To draw an easier analogy, we all know the structure of a pencil, it's just a piece of lead surrounded by wood. But if I give you a chunk of lead ore and a tree, can you make me a pencil?


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