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Again, on the basis of my conversations with those in the know ... there is a genuine concern that it may already be too late to fundamentally modify the single seater ... ground testing is at an advanced stage and incorporating fundamental changes ... ie. additional plumbing for external tanks etc ... may be very difficult to do at a later stage.
Not sure that makes sense.
There has to be 2 seater planned\designed- notably the trainer version - So these would have been reviewed , addressed or limitations noted.
George J wrote:
I am still confused about Su-30MK/MKI Bort 722. IIRC there is a "Show Number"-the MKI second prototype of 1998 vintage was 06 not 02 and Production Bort # 722 seems to be continuation of the series production of Su-35 (single seater) 701 onwards.
Suman Sharma's latest post clarifies this further ( in her typical style )
For the idiot anons in the comment section { } , here is the clarification sent from Moscow about the aircraft I flew (tail number 002) "is in full Su-30 MKI configuration, i.e. it fully corresponds to the latest batch delivered to the IAF (so-called Phase 3 or Mk 3). The aircraft itself belongs to the developer - Sukhoi Company, and is being used as a test-bed for all modernisations of Su-30MKI over the past few years, meaning that it was gradually modified as per the contractual requirements to test them before they were implemented into serial production at Irkutsk Aviation plant. Therefore it is now exactly as the latest supplies from Irkutsk (airframe and avionics-wise)."
"So please be assured that you flew the serial Su-30MKI operated by the IAF at the moment (differs only in color, tail number and incurred flight hours:)."
Hi guys ... This clarification comes from Yuri Vaschuk ... the pilot who flew me. This was the operative part of an email sent my UAC's PR people to Suman Sharma ...
"He asked to clarify your doubts: the aircraft you flew (tail number 002) is in full Su-30 MKI configuration, i.e. it fully corresponds to the latest batch delivered to the IAF (so-called Phase 3 or Mk 3). The aircraft itself belongs to the developper - Sukhoi Company, and is being used as a test-bed for all modernisations of Su-30MKI over the past few years, meaning that it was gradually modified as per the contractual requirements to test them before they were implemented into serial production at Irkutsk Aviation plant. Therefore it is now exactly as the latest supplies from Irkutsk (airframe and avionics-wise). So please be assured that it was as though you flew the serial Su-30MKI operated by the IAF at the moment (differs only in color, tail number and incurred flight hours:)."
Interesting ... Also .. I have many more pictures of my sortie ... though none from inside the jet ... Are you guys interested in me putting them up?
^^
Of course we are interested.
Incidentally I saw the broadcast version of your YouTube video and they are the same. There is one point in that video - before the horizontal spin which shows that a small segment has been edited out - possibly camera shake.
But apart from that it does appear to me that the horizontal spin was preceded by a small diameter loop/kulbit to degrade airspeed, and the horiz spin ends with a nose down to gain airspeed (AFAICT)
I tried to see if the positions of the tailplane were visible in the rear view mirror - but they are not.
Vishnu wrote:
Interesting ... Also .. I have many more pictures of my sortie ... though none from inside the jet ... Are you guys interested in me putting them up?
Cheers
Vishnu Som
You need to ask that?
You certainly underestimate our appetite for a/c pics.
Vishnu wrote:Hi Sanjib ... while India will incorporate its design elements into the FGFA ... I am told that not all purchases by India will necessarily be of the two seat variant. Hence, the first flight of the FGFA in a few months will, fundamentally, be the first flight of India's stealth fighter ... at least as far as core aerodynamics are concerned of the single seat version. Again, on the basis of my conversations with those in the know ... there is a genuine concern that it may already be too late to fundamentally modify the single seater ... ground testing is at an advanced stage and incorporating fundamental changes ... ie. additional plumbing for external tanks etc ... may be very difficult to do at a later stage. At the same time, incorporating Indian avionics should not be as tough .. Thanks
I don't get it Vishnu. Why would it be so difficult to modify the single seater PAK-FA into a twin-seater FGFA ? while I do recognise that any changes to the Outer Mould Line will mean a change in aerodynamics and RCS, and hence another round of design work, I would assume that given HAL's involvement, the burden will be shared. and what is this about external tanks ? is that an IAF requirement ? that will be a stealth killer as compared to conformal tanks (if additional tanks are even required for a Su-30 sized PAK-FA, that is)
If not, what on earth does India gain in design experience by this PAK-FA program ? Then India pumping in money to fund development of this fighter would be a waste, and instead we should have only bought the completed product after having it customised with IAF specific avionics.
.........The IAF in less than 24 hour flew seven different kinds of aircrafts to locate the chopper carrying the missing chief minister, using for the first time, its front line fighter aircraft Sukhoi 30- MKI along with the mid-air refueler IL-78 for the purpose.
The aircrafts used everything- their night flying capability, advanced cameras, ability to look deep into the forest and in pitch darkness to complete the mission.
2nd September
1:15 PM- IAF received the first call about chief minister's chopper missing.
Within 15 minutes two Chetaks from Hakimpet Helicopter Training School were airborne
40 minutes later one Mi-8 joined in the operation from Yelahanka airbase in Karnataka
4:30 PM- One Dornier got airborne from Bangalore to look into the area covering Cuddapah, Sri Sailam, Chittoor.
5:00 PM- While Chetak continued its search operation one Avro airplane was pressed in service from Hyderabad.
6:30 pm- IAF sets up its own Operations Room at Kurnool coordinating with the aircrafts and the civil administration.
It was decided to flow in Sukhoi- 30 MKI from Bareilly along with IL-78 mid-air refueller from Agra for special search.
8:10 PM- Two Su-30 MKI along with one IL-78 starts scanning the area. The planes returned to their base by mid-night after a four hour long sortie.
The planes receive encouraging success by demarcating the possible area where the wreckage could have fallen.
September 3
2:10 AM- Another SU-30 MKI flies for a six hour long mission with an IL-78 for mid-air support. For the first time in the history of IAF a fighter aircraft was refuelled in the mid air in night.
The aircraft using its synthetic imaging capability locates the wreckage.
6:30 AM- Two Chetaks and one Mi-8 takes off to zero in on the area specified by the Su-30 MKI.
8:30 AM- Wreckage located and two police commandos alighted.
9:20 AM- Two more police commando were dropped in by one Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH)
Winching operation starts with the help of Mi-8 and ALHs. Choppers could not land at the wreckage site because of thick forest and high tree canopy.
so the SAR on Bars must be better than thought, if it can locate broken debris in middle of forest. Due to rain
cant have been any thermal signature left. does not bode well for any Al-khalids found lurking around
expensive sorties but good news to know. this is the kind of improntu 'killbox night hunter' ops that separate well honed swing-role men from the brochure fanboi stuff.
pandyan wrote:Mere fact that team found the wreckage in couple of days is significant accomplishment in itself...compare this with search for steve fossett...there was a massive search for over a month and they finally gave up. the wreckage site was discovered one year later by a hiker.
SMS was send and the BSNL cell tower located the possible Area where the Chopper could have been crashed it was not possible to narrow down the location because of huge gap between the two towers in the area .then single MKI was pressed to search the narrowed down area and it was then SAR picked up something and later Mi-17 was send to locate the crash site by the images provided by MKI and other is known to all
I know this much, the bodies were brought to Kurnool yesterday in Dhruv after being Winched up from the Hill side and then Transferred there to MI-8, Mi-17 to flown to Hyderabad. this could be because of size of Aircraft.
Aditya_V wrote:I know this much, the bodies were brought to Kurnool yesterday in Dhruv after being Winched up from the Hill side and then Transferred there to MI-8, Mi-17 to flown to Hyderabad. this could be because of size of Aircraft.
24 sq at Bareilly is equipped with the pod. Had they wanted to use Bars, Pune based squadrons would have sufficed, eliminating the need of aerial refueling.
Aditya_V wrote:I know this much, the bodies were brought to Kurnool yesterday in Dhruv after being Winched up from the Hill side and then Transferred there to MI-8, Mi-17 to flown to Hyderabad. this could be because of size of Aircraft.
The Dhruv has a winch.
Does the Mi-8/17 also carry a winch?
Actually what i found surprising from the TV shots was that the Sarang-Dhruv had a winch!!!
24 sq at Bareilly is equipped with the pod. Had they wanted to use Bars, Pune based squadrons would have sufficed, eliminating the need of aerial refueling.
Understood. You have no information, only a speculation...
rakall wrote: quote="chetak" quote="Aditya_V"I know this much, the bodies were brought to Kurnool yesterday in Dhruv after being Winched up from the Hill side and then Transferred there to MI-8, Mi-17 to flown to Hyderabad. this could be because of size of Aircraft.
The Dhruv has a winch.
Does the Mi-8/17 also carry a winch?
Actually what i found surprising from the TV shots was that the Sarang-Dhruv had a winch!!!
A helicopter winch is usually a quick install item.
May have been installed keeping the mission in mind.
tsarkar wrote:Not Bars, Elta EL/M-20600 24 sq at Bareilly is equipped with the pod. Had they wanted to use Bars, Pune based squadrons would have sufficed, eliminating the need of aerial refueling.
Not the EL/M-20600 but the EL/M-2060P, that's the one that we have a pic off on the Tezpur MKIs on Page 20 of this thread. The N011M does not have a SAR mode that can do such fine work. But if the 2060P was used then it needs a GES and it has a 250NM datalink (so it needs to be transported).......unless the ENTIRE might of IAF was put into play....including the AWACS.
I thought this thread was for Su-30 related news and discussion. PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A HOT AIR THREAD. If you don't have the ability to distinguish between Su-30 related news and politics of this event then you need to STICK TO the HOT AIR FORUM.
I saw the picture on page 18 (not 20) and I have a difference of opinion regarding its recognition. However I’ll keep my council to myself until I can validate my point of view.
As my understanding goes, GES is required when there is a need for data sharing/transmission. The aircraft can itself use the data without sharing.
1) It was a huge learning experience for the IAF. They used/were forced to use pretty much everything they had at their disposal to serve cause which happens to be political.
2) This was NOT an exercise this was pretty close to the real deal-the entire political establishment was in a tizzy for the IAF assets to do their job. There was tremendous pressure on the IAF to perform.
3) Unless the new and improved jingos of BRF also believe that IAF has a short memory like them and will instantly forget everything they have learned, this will certainly help them the next time they have to go hunting for Al-Ding Dongs or worse a downed IAF asset itself. (off course the next time would be a lot tougher....at least MH and MP did not field SAMs )
Last edited by George J on 05 Sep 2009 21:44, edited 2 times in total.
oh, please, discussed to death for near about thousand years.
do check the archives before posting old material.
Raul ji,
There is no website wide search function on BR, only post by post search function. I tried searching through that and I didn't find this link posted on this thread so I posted the link.
bruno ji, did you find the archives, the military exercises archives in particular ?
there you will find not only this but also other international exercises of Indian forces. there's quite some tasty nuggets there.
have a look !
Can you provide a link or do you know it through a paanwalah?
had it from other channels first but force has already broken it so it is public info now.
some points :
50 likely to be ordered taking the number up to 279
With the Bars upgrade - which will put Bars in the Irbis class, Brahmos et al, we will get significantly more punch. We have also purchased some more yehudi gear for strike for the MKIs.
Also - note this - the current Bars itself should be able to support the R-172 against AEW&C type platforms. With the Upg, its a given - my take is more advanced gear is on the way to "round out the MKI package".
check it out but idiots have mixed up LCA with MKI delay whereas IAF wants 2 sq of MKIs as a de risk measure for MRCA delay primarily with LCA MK2 issue second & Mirage/MiG-29 Upg third.Please do point that out, otherwise the usual suspects will start wailing that LCA etc numbers will be cut. There is nothing like that and overall LCA MK2 numbers remain at 5 Sq required & there is considerable backing for the program now.
BTW MOD report confirms LCA AESA has been formally sanctioned for LRDE in Nov 2008.
Force are also wrong on overall numbers, it will be 279 not 320.
The AESA performance specs will clearly be finalized later as NIIP is still working on the tech, but the Bars-Phase 1 upg should be pretty much on the way. They will clearly utilize Irbis experience for this, as they now know the technology development required to extend the Bars further.
Given Bars is already superior to most legacy radars & even matches state of art MSA's, the Phase 1 upg should make it a very powerful system and superior to most AESAs especially in range.
Any idea of delivery schedule and where these will be manufactured? Now we're talking like the Chinese! approx 280 MKIs will be a force to reckon with.
Rahul bhai please can u ask the paanwallahs to keep ordering 50 additional MKIs every year?
Vivek K wrote:Any idea of delivery schedule and where these will be manufactured? Now we're talking like the Chinese! approx 280 MKIs will be a force to reckon with.
Rahul bhai please can u ask the paanwallahs to keep ordering 50 additional MKIs every year?
OT maybe , I have a question. We are already suffering from pilot shortage in IAF. If we keep on adding more two seater MKIs where will the extra number of pilots come from.
The MKIs safety record will help generate more enthusiasm amongst young Indians to join the IAF - a tremendous safety record, air dominance etc. So the pilot numbers should follow.
Vivek K wrote:The MKIs safety record will help generate more enthusiasm amongst young Indians to join the IAF - a tremendous safety record, air dominance etc. So the pilot numbers should follow.
Somehow I do not share your enthusiasm in this matter. Hopefully, I will be proven wrong.