Su-30: News and Discussion

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

AmitR wrote: OT maybe , I have a question. We are already suffering from pilot shortage in IAF. If we keep on adding more two seater MKIs where will the extra number of pilots come from.
valid concerns IMO. the only explanation is the numbers have picked up in recent times and IAF is confident of getting enough recruits to fly the large number of two seaters they are looking at.

one pointer is the absence of pilot shortage reports in press for the last couple of years.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by karan_mc »

AmitR wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Any idea of delivery schedule and where these will be manufactured? Now we're talking like the Chinese! approx 280 MKIs will be a force to reckon with.

Rahul bhai please can u ask the paanwallahs to keep ordering 50 additional MKIs every year?
OT maybe , I have a question. We are already suffering from pilot shortage in IAF. If we keep on adding more two seater MKIs where will the extra number of pilots come from.
thats why IAF came up with WSO (Weapon System Officer ), IAF will recruit people for this post and will only handle counter measures and other avionic stuff ,but will be not trained as a pilot ,WSO will also help FGFA
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by AmitR »

karan_mc wrote:
AmitR wrote: OT maybe , I have a question. We are already suffering from pilot shortage in IAF. If we keep on adding more two seater MKIs where will the extra number of pilots come from.
thats why IAF came up with WSO (Weapon System Officer ), IAF will recruit people for this post and will only handle counter measures and other avionic stuff ,but will be not trained as a pilot ,WSO will also help FGFA
That's a good move. I read the wiki for WSO and it seems that the wizzos do get trained in flying the plane but during the non-tactical phase only.
WSO mission duties in fighter aircraft were historically rigid because of the displays and controls in the front and aft seats of fighter cockpits. However modern fighter cockpits using programmable multi-function displays allow assigned roles to be more flexible than previous generation aircraft such as the F-4 Phantom II, A-6 Intruder, or F-14 Tomcat. In the latest fighters either aircrew can be responsible for detecting, targeting and engaging air-to-air targets or ground targets, performing communications, operating data-link or defensive systems based on the tactical situation. This provides the flexibility for pilot and WSO roles to be customized based on experience, expertise, workload, tactics, and weapons being employed. The pilot remains responsible for flying the aircraft in tactical situations. WSOs assigned to bomber aircraft typically have more rigidly defined roles.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

Vivek K wrote:The MKIs safety record will help generate more enthusiasm amongst young Indians to join the IAF - a tremendous safety record, air dominance etc. So the pilot numbers should follow.
For a person who love aircraft (such as I was) there will be no discouragement. It's the better salaries of ityvity that take young people away.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

karan_mc wrote:
AmitR wrote: OT maybe , I have a question. We are already suffering from pilot shortage in IAF. If we keep on adding more two seater MKIs where will the extra number of pilots come from.
thats why IAF came up with WSO (Weapon System Officer ), IAF will recruit people for this post and will only handle counter measures and other avionic stuff ,but will be not trained as a pilot ,WSO will also help FGFA
sorry, doesn't make sense. an extra WSO does not reduce the need for pilots.
please give a source to support this i.e IAF has come up with the idea of WSO to tackle pilot shortages.

AFAIK the the rear seater in the mki for example is different from the western WSO concept, not only does he have a full set of piloting instruments, he is also the higher ranking officer.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by saptarishi »

India to buy 50 more su-30mki

http://www.forceindia.net/showfeaturereport3.aspx
Back in New Delhi, senior IAF officials confirmed that the case for Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for 50 additional Su-30MKI has been sent to the defence ministry. (This is over and above the earlier 40 Su-30MKI being sought from Russia. With 230 aircraft to be assembled by HAL, the IAF will now have a total of 320 Su-30MKI aircraft.)
instead of 320 ,the number should be 280,,50 originally ordered plus 140 to be manufactured plus 40 ordered in 2007 plus now 50,,50+140+40+ 50 =280,

i Think this should also be posted in tracking errors in defence reporting thread
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Dr. Shiv, the chance for glory in IAF's first true Air Dominance fighter is romantic enough for the young mind. The chance for fame and glory is motivates them further. Also the tremendous safety record would make their parents agree to the young one joining the Air Force. However, salary does matter as well.
Last edited by Vivek K on 07 Sep 2009 02:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

karan_mc wrote: thats why IAF came up with WSO (Weapon System Officer ), IAF will recruit people for this post and will only handle counter measures and other avionic stuff ,but will be not trained as a pilot ,WSO will also help FGFA
When did that happen?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Katare »

saptarishi wrote:India to buy 50 more su-30mki

http://www.forceindia.net/showfeaturereport3.aspx
Back in New Delhi, senior IAF officials confirmed that the case for Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for 50 additional Su-30MKI has been sent to the defence ministry. (This is over and above the earlier 40 Su-30MKI being sought from Russia. With 230 aircraft to be assembled by HAL, the IAF will now have a total of 320 Su-30MKI aircraft.)
instead of 320 ,the number should be 280,,50 originally ordered plus 140 to be manufactured plus 40 ordered in 2007 plus now 50,,50+140+40+ 50 =280,

i Think this should also be posted in tracking errors in defence reporting thread
IAF lost one MKI in crash so it'll be 279 in service.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

Vivek K wrote:Dr. Shiv, the chance for glory in IAF's first true Air Dominance fighter is romantic enough for the young mind. The chance for fame and glory is motivates them further. Also the tremendous safety record would make their parents agree to the young one joining the Air Force. However, salary does matter as well.
The objection I have to the particular spin you are putting is as follows.

If you look at an average young man who joins the air force and look at his chances of dying from an air accident, you find that it is extremely low. By making the statement you have made I believe that you are propagating an impression you have in your mind that a man joining the air force is joining a risky profession with a far higher risk of being killed than say giving birth to a child or driving or working in the many toxic and dangerous environments that India has. And that includes medicine.

I believe this impression needs to be countered because it is wrong. There is a way to correct this impression - especially by pointing out the low risk of dying in the Air Force as compared to other things in life in India including merely riding on a scooter (or marrying, for a woman). But unfortunately I believe that neither the community in India in general, nor the air force in particular have reached the level of sophistication of Western society where they are able to parse such information and use it to dispel myths.

Off topic but every day i see evidence of how "backward and ignorant" Indian society in general remains in comparison to the information available in the West. We collect data, have it in front of us, but do not use it.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by karan_mc »

sorry, doesn't make sense. an extra WSO does not reduce the need for pilots.
please give a source to support this i.e IAF has come up with the idea of WSO to tackle pilot shortages.

AFAIK the the rear seater in the mki for example is different from the western WSO concept, not only does he have a full set of piloting instruments, he is also the higher ranking officer.
i think i read it in vayu aerospace some time ago , if that is the case it is total waste of resources a highly trained pilot with years of flying experience is looking after weapons/navigation/EW/CM while a less experienced pilot is flying them . Western WSO concept was developed keeping the very same fact in mind ,Best/experienced pilot flies the plane while best WSO take cares of the enemy/aircraft .with 290 mki in force soon we will require to many pilots almost 600+ Training a pilot will be costly affair then WSO
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

My impression has been that the rear person would perform WSO functions AND be able to fly on real long sorties. While the WSO in the West is less liekly be able to fly the AC (right?).

So, no matter what, the MKI will need a qualified pilot in the rear too - specially on longer engagements.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by George J »

NRao wrote:My impression has been that the rear person would perform WSO functions AND be able to fly on real long sorties. While the WSO in the West is less likely be able to fly the AC (right?).

So, no matter what, the MKI will need a qualified pilot in the rear too - specially on longer engagements.
You are absolutely correct. The USN has a Naval Aviator (pilot) and Naval Flight Officer (NFO), depending on the a/c this person could be EWO/WSO/Air Observer. The USAF has a similar CSO. There is enough and more info on Wiki on these two folks and they are TRAINED to fly. But TRAINED TO FLY becomes irrelevant if your aircraft does not have controls to let the second person fly. The MKI can be flown from EITHER cockpit. The only thing that compartment 2 (rear seater) cannot do is use HMS, this is because the Sura sensors are mounter only in compartment 1. Other than that both guys/girls can do everything else.

Now the MKI can pretty much fly and "almost" land itself but there is way too much to be done on next gen air missions, the YSR episode pretty much showed that. Imagine being on station for 4 hours having to review SAR footage and fly the a/c at the same time. The MKI does the flying the the pilots take care of other stuff. Eventually when the AWACS is fully integrated the Pilot and WSO can do online banking and who knows...do more important stuff like read BRF on a Mission too. :twisted:
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

shiv wrote: The objection I have to the particular spin you are putting is as follows.

......By making the statement you have made I believe that you are propagating an impression you have in your mind that a man joining the air force is joining a risky profession with a far higher risk of being killed than say giving birth to a child or driving or working in the many toxic and dangerous environments that India has. And that includes medicine.

I believe this impression needs to be countered because it is wrong.
You are right in pointing that out. I loved flying but my family would never hear of it (joining the Air force) and maybe its my personal experience that brings that negative spin out without wanting to. The media's negative spin on the Mig crashes made it seem worse to lay-men even though the correct facts were provided by so many like Late Wing Commander Suresh. We never learnt to compare the crashes per no. of flying hours.
You're perhaps a bit of a mind-reader Shiv. The intention was to highlight the Sukhois as a recruitment tool and not to malign the past record of the IAF. I apologize if my post does that.

But if you leave the past aside, the Sukhoi's are ideal to invite current generation of young men into the air-force. With a flawless flight safety (1 a/c of 98 MKIs + 18 ks) record and its Air Dominance role, the positive media coverage will definitely inflame the passions of the young. The shot at fame and glory are a great motivation for recruitment. The media coverage of exercises where IAF came one up on the USAF also must help in recruitment.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by kidoman »

saptarishi wrote:India to buy 50 more su-30mki

http://www.forceindia.net/showfeaturereport3.aspx
Back in New Delhi, senior IAF officials confirmed that the case for Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for 50 additional Su-30MKI has been sent to the defence ministry. (This is over and above the earlier 40 Su-30MKI being sought from Russia. With 230 aircraft to be assembled by HAL, the IAF will now have a total of 320 Su-30MKI aircraft.)
instead of 320 ,the number should be 280,,50 originally ordered plus 140 to be manufactured plus 40 ordered in 2007 plus now 50,,50+140+40+ 50 =280,

i Think this should also be posted in tracking errors in defence reporting thread
Can we believe Prasun on this?
Any other news sites where it appeared??
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

kidoman wrote: Can we believe Prasun on this?
Naah - I'm betting its a bluff.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

karan_mc wrote:
sorry, doesn't make sense. an extra WSO does not reduce the need for pilots.
please give a source to support this i.e IAF has come up with the idea of WSO to tackle pilot shortages.

AFAIK the the rear seater in the mki for example is different from the western WSO concept, not only does he have a full set of piloting instruments, he is also the higher ranking officer.
i think i read it in vayu aerospace some time ago , if that is the case it is total waste of resources a highly trained pilot with years of flying experience is looking after weapons/navigation/EW/CM while a less experienced pilot is flying them . Western WSO concept was developed keeping the very same fact in mind ,Best/experienced pilot flies the plane while best WSO take cares of the enemy/aircraft .with 290 mki in force soon we will require to many pilots almost 600+ Training a pilot will be costly affair then WSO
karan, can we assume that IAF knows a little about aerial warfare and their planners might actually have a brain ?
or is having brains a monopoly of western forces too ?

the sukhoi is a very unique aircraft with unique capabilities. simply plugging in a concept from a dissimilar force will certainly not give you the best bang for the buck.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by kidoman »

shiv wrote:
kidoman wrote: Can we believe Prasun on this?
Naah - I'm betting its a bluff.
Wish it was true :(( :((
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Nihat »

So, we should assume for now that the order remains at 230 MKI which I believe is a very handsome number for a fighter of Flankers (given it’s abilities) , when fully inducted into the IAF it would be a very big deterrent on it’s own , leave alone the outdated and over hyped PAF but even PLAAF would not have anything to subdue such a force and would refrain from an air war.

Btw , A report on a English news Channel “Headlines Today” I think mentioned that a MKI squadron is to be deployed in Nicobar Islands to counter the Chinki ambitious plans of influence in IOR. I cannot find a link to it on the net , would appreciate is someone else could find it . Thanks.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

the sukhoi is a very unique aircraft with unique capabilities. simply plugging in a concept from a dissimilar force will certainly not give you the best bang for the buck.
IF I may, that should read "the sukhoi MKI".

Perhaps only the Su-35 is either par or perhaps even "ahead" in some respects. But considering that the MKI was a mid-90s plane (beat ALL those MRCA planes, eh?) and still evolving, it says something about the insight of the IAF planners/dreamers.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

tch tch rao sahab, "the sukhoi" should be enough for SDREs ? :twisted:
all else are just sukhois !
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

I did ask for your permission. :)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Guys,don't discount it,the extra Flankers being ordered.The rising threat from China and its agressive posturing and incursions and excursions into Indian territory requires a firm military response from India.We are at the moment handicapped with the decision making delays hampering our preparedness.For use against China in the Himalayas,the SU-30MKI is the best option for us to counter any agression by China.It is capable of long range strike and with air-launched Brahmos to be shortly tested on our Flankers,we will have the capability to dstroy key elements of Chinese infrastructure in Tibet,like the railway etc.

I don't know whether any of you caught a TV channel om the Chinese threat.The recent brainstorming in the Andamans with a galaxy of top scientists,babus,military men including Kalam,reported,was to consider strategies to deal with the threat mainly frm China.The Chinese "string of pearls" to encircle India and lead to the oil-rich Gulf will be countered by our thrust to defend the A&N and use it as a launch pad for offensive ops against any enemy that might try and make his way into the IOR.The A&N islands are to become "fortress A&N",with a nuclear sub base,carrier base,SU-30MKI base (already there),etc.,etc.A lot of military installations are to come up on various islands which will be India's first line of defence and offence in case the "Mudddle Kingdom" gets nasty.I only wish included in the plan is an acquisition for amphibians! A dozen ASW Berievs would be the perfect way in which to patrol our island territories,requiring no airfield for base and support facilities.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by SanjibGhosh »

Here it is .....

Govt takes note of incursions; Army Chief to visit Leh
http://www.zeenews.com/news561560.html#

Today's CCS meet is also believed to have discussed the deployment of Su-30MKI fighter aircraft in Port Blair for the security of Andaman and Nicobar islands.

To strengthen its defences along the Chinese border, India has already deployed the Su-30s in Tezpur in Assam and has plans of deploying more squadrons of the aircraft there in the near future.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

ah, a long standing demand of mine closer to seeing the light of day !
thanks for posting that sanjib.
may be the 6th sqdn will be based there, along with the AL brahmos.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

don't discount it,the extra Flankers being ordered
The problem is how do we account for it when the source is itself discountable? Furthermore, the source has been an issue for years now. The right thing to do would be to have a dependable source and then base our BRism on such a source. Posting on BR based on an undependable source ONLY creates more confusion. And, there is a difference between obfuscation and confusion. While the prior is a deliberate effort to confuse others (our enemies), the latter only succeeds in confusing us!! Not worth it.



On Chicom and their monkey tricks, I have said this before, they have a very small window within which they may succeed with their tricks. I feel once that window passes they will have to throw a LOT more at the problem to get an acceptable result set. In that window India will have to be on the defensive (IMHO). Once that window passes it is up for grabs.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Rao sahab, force isn't the only source. in fact I heard it from another channel (who is rarely wrong, if ever) before the force story came out. you can find those in my posts last page.

I believe it genuine news that IAF has shown interest and knowledgeable people think govt go-ahead is as good as done.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

That is indeed good news. I have googled and found nothing so far - outside Force.

What I am really glad about (IF true - not entirely sceptical) is that these acquisitions do not come at the expense of the MRCA.

Now, only if India can get moving with the Kaveri.

(JUST googled: now that def from across the border has the same news item. Still no one else. May be I am entering wrong words to search? Only FYI.)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Dmurphy »

Just a question to the Gurus here. Why can't we replace the crashed Sukhoi and restore its numbers to the originally intended one? This is I ask because the assembly lines are still on.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by sunny y »

WOWWWW 8)
This is a great news.....We need to do everything in our capacity to counter China's string of pearls.....Placing MKI at A&N is a good move.....

In addition to this Hindustan Times carried news today that installation of radars at Maldives have been finalized & the process will start soon...... 8)

Suddenly some pretty good stuff has started happening in South Block..... 8)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

My 2 Cents on the WSO issue:

I know for sure that IAF did delegate/transfer officers from other streams like Navigators from Tpt. Sqn. for use as WSO on the Sukhois. I have personally met some of them. Typical of the stream these gents came from, they sported the "Half Wing" of the Navigators...this was circa 2004...

added later: Can the A&N accomodate and support a full Sqn. of the Sukhois with its added maintenance requirement (which i presume will be higher given the twin engines)? Or are we looking at somthing like 1/2 Flights with 3-6 aircrafts? We can hold the Sqn. back in, say Tambaran or Arakkonam, from where the rest of Sqn. can scan a larger swathe down south and rotate personal and a/c to the A&N airfield.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Mayuresh »

Dmurphy wrote:Just a question to the Gurus here. Why can't we replace the crashed Sukhoi and restore its numbers to the originally intended one? This is I ask because the assembly lines are still on.
I think the number of MKIs eventually produced shall be (requirements + estimated attrition). So, the crash would have, most probably been accounted for beforehand into the calculations for the final numbers ordered
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

rohitvats wrote:
added later: Can the A&N accomodate and support a full Sqn. of the Sukhois with its added maintenance requirement (which i presume will be higher given the twin engines)? Or are we looking at somthing like 1/2 Flights with 3-6 aircrafts? We can hold the Sqn. back in, say Tambaran or Arakkonam, from where the rest of Sqn. can scan a larger swathe down south and rotate personal and a/c to the A&N airfield.
or base from kalaikunda and cover the NE - plenty of choices
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

rohitvats wrote:My 2 Cents on the WSO issue:

I know for sure that IAF did delegate/transfer officers from other streams like Navigators from Tpt. Sqn. for use as WSO on the Sukhois. I have personally met some of them. Typical of the stream these gents came from, they sported the "Half Wing" of the Navigators...this was circa 2004...
Then the question is were these gents trained as pilots? Previously or after their transfer.

My understanding is that they should have been full fledged pilots. Or, they should not be just "other streams".
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by karan_mc »

karan, can we assume that IAF knows a little about aerial warfare and their planners might actually have a brain ?
or is having brains a monopoly of western forces too ?

the sukhoi is a very unique aircraft with unique capabilities. simply plugging in a concept from a dissimilar force will certainly not give you the best bang for the buck.
sir Different air force may have different requirements ,since IAF is first time using this concept in a fighter jet (Twin seater combat jets) other then the odd Trainers ,it will be good to explore WSO concept , instead of Training two pilots (anyways only one will be flying at a time and it is expensive), nor our enemies are thousand of miles away, WSO concept should be explored that's my take
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

karan, it is wrong to assume that IAF doesn't use WSO's. think jaguars and the 2 seat mirages.
what I meant and other people mentioned too is that the mki has some capability that requires an aircrew type a little different from the WSO concept.

FYI, the 2 seat su-30 was originally designed by the russkies as pack leader of a formation of plane jane flankers, with the su-30 rear seater being in overall command.
think of why people say that the mki can be used as a mini-AWACS and the demands from mki aircrew for such a mission. then you will understand why something more than a simple WSO is needed to fully exploit the mki. but then, not every mki rear seater will be/can be trained to that level. seniority is a factor too.

no need for sir btw. :)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

sir Different air force may have different requirements ,since IAF is first time using this concept in a fighter jet (Twin seater combat jets) other then the odd Trainers ,it will be good to explore WSO concept ,
The MKI was never an experimental plane from the PoV of the IAF. They KNEW what they were doing when they dreamed of the MKI. From day one the MKI has had BOTH seats configured to fly. I am not sure if there is any other air craft that can claim this (from day one).

What other AFs do they do.

instead of Training two pilots (anyways only one will be flying at a time and it is expensive), nor our enemies are thousand of miles away, WSO concept should be explored that's my take
The pilots that entered the MKI stream were already very well trained - both of them. Perhaps that seems to have placed some strain on the IAF.

However I have looked around, but have not found anything of substance that indicates that the IAF is moving to a WSO concept.

On distances, I do not know what made the IAF design a dual seater that houses a pilot in both seats. But, for sure, they did it with something concrete in mind. And, we cannot go by any assumptions.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

NRao wrote:
rohitvats wrote:My 2 Cents on the WSO issue:

I know for sure that IAF did delegate/transfer officers from other streams like Navigators from Tpt. Sqn. for use as WSO on the Sukhois. I have personally met some of them. Typical of the stream these gents came from, they sported the "Half Wing" of the Navigators...this was circa 2004...
Then the question is were these gents trained as pilots? Previously or after their transfer.

My understanding is that they should have been full fledged pilots. Or, they should not be just "other streams".
The gentleem I met were from Navigator Stream and of Flt. Lt. Level. They were trained in emergency handling of Sukhoi plus take care of landing, if the need arises. These men will as it is not qualify for flying training as they already would have been if they could. There is reason they were/are Navigators in the force and not pilots. Plus, the two pilot thing has also bees used to train/expose pilots to both aspect of Sukhois: flying as well as managing the console. The latter exposes them to finer and detailed aspects of Su capabilities in more "relaxed' environment of rear seat; this as compared to doing everything while flying the a/c.
NRao
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

I am trying to understand here:
The gentleem I met were from Navigator Stream and of Flt. Lt. Level. They were trained in emergency handling of Sukhoi plus take care of landing, if the need arises.
So, in 2004 or so, the IAF moved away from the time when they placed a sqad ldr/grp capt in both the seats.
These men will as it is not qualify for flying training as they already would have been if they could. There is reason they were/are Navigators in the force and not pilots.
True, understandable. However, the rear seat of the MKI was not design only for a navigator/WSO. It was specifically designed for a pilot TOO.

So, if these guys are nav on some other air craft I can understand. But on the MKI I am little confused at this point in time.
Plus, the two pilot thing has also bees used to train/expose pilots to both aspect of Sukhois: flying as well as managing the console. The latter exposes them to finer and detailed aspects of Su capabilities in more "relaxed' environment of rear seat; this as compared to doing everything while flying the a/c.
Well.
Rahul M
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Nrao saar, this is my guesstimate from what rohit says, what we know of the su's abilities and what gyani people have said regarding the rear-seater.

a sqdn can't have ALL senior officers can it ? otherwise you will need to stock su sqdns only sqn ldr's and above.
some of the rear-seaters assigned to a sqn will be senior ones, gp cpt and sqn ldr's with full piloting capability and enhanced responsibilities of commanding the formations, the rest will be equivalent to WSO's.
I guess these a/c will also carry a few extra gizmos !
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