Su-30: News and Discussion

[DavidD]

I would politely disagree. Your contention is that China has learnt enough from reverse engineering to build a body of knowledge that enables them to design updates similar to the 35 etc. We would have seen those updates by now if the difference were small. Ergo, either the difference is not small OR the Chinese capability to update the design is limited (reason being the core skills are reverse engineering).

OT: It's Graphite, not Lead. And I have carved pencils and pens from wood blocks.

We do see those updates, you can see them both in the J-11B and the J-10B.

I think it's obvious from my example that I have no idea how to make a pencil, but you get the idea

[DavidD]

Not to extend our conversation, but is the J11B at the level of the SU35? I meant when we see these changes in a J11C/D, we can assume the difference is not significant or... You catch my drift?

It's not on the Su-35's level, and I wouldn't say the difference is insignificant either, I'm just saying that it's not large enough to worth reverse-engineering or even procuring. I mean, it'd be nice to get a couple to study, but I doubt the Russians are willing to sell just a couple of those.

[Juggi G]

Clicky



(c) Copyrights Cobham Systems

[andy B]

Not to extend our conversation, but is the J11B at the level of the SU35? I meant when we see these changes in a J11C/D, we can assume the difference is not significant or... You catch my drift?

It's not on the Su-35's level, and I wouldn't say the difference is insignificant either, I'm just saying that it's not large enough to worth reverse-engineering or even procuring. I mean, it'd be nice to get a couple to study, but I doubt the Russians are willing to sell just a couple of those.

I would think a lot of the countries including Russia would now have learnt the penalty and repercussions of what happens when they seel the Chinese a "couple" of their products...

[Indranil]

In lieu of the fact that the Chinese are getting 117S for their new J-11Bs and may be the Su-35 themselves, is it time that our Sukhoi upgrades get the 117S too?

[RKumar]

In lieu of the fact that the Chinese are getting 117S for their new J-11Bs and may be the Su-35 themselves, is it time that our Sukhoi upgrades get the 117S too?

Don't worry let the Chinese get the Su-35, which is itself a paper plane with lots of problems at this moment.

Russia is playing physcological game with India to influence the outcome of MMRCA or trying to get extra orders to Milk maximum amount which they can get from us with 4th gen plane.

OT -> I dont see why we will go for Grippen or Su-35 (both are paper planes at this moments) when LCA is having IOC this year.

Regarding 117S, do we really require this upgrade? If yes, then lets go for it irrespective if Chinese are getting those or not.

[negi]

From the OEM

AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF GENERATION 4+

The modernized engine thrust has been increased by 16% compared to the base AL-31FP engine, and has reached 14500 kgf, the lifetime has been doubled, up to 4000 hours.

Such high parameters, on retention of the overall dimensions and weight, are attained due to application of an absolutely new high-tech low pressure compressor with increased air flow and efficiency, a new high-performance turbine of increased reliability with an improved blade cooling system and digital engine control system integrated with the aircraft control system.

The declared parameters have been confirmed in the course of the demonstrator engine bench and flight tests. A special NPO Saturn achievement is a stable and reliable operation of the engine at Mach number exceeding 2, which was obtained in the course of the demonstrator flight tests.

As for geometry and attachment points on the aircraft, the 117С engine conforms to its predecessors, generation 4 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines. This makes it possible, with slightly developed engine nacelles and equipment, to use the 117С engine for modernization of the entire aircraft fleet of previously manufactured Su-27/Su-30, operational both by the Russian and foreign Air Force.

[nachiket]

From the OEM

AIRCRAFT ENGINES OF GENERATION 4+

As for geometry and attachment points on the aircraft, the 117С engine conforms to its predecessors, generation 4 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines. This makes it possible, with slightly developed engine nacelles and equipment, to use the 117С engine for modernization of the entire aircraft fleet of previously manufactured Su-27/Su-30, operational both by the Russian and foreign Air Force.

This is excellent news. There was somewhat of a question mark over the future engine upgrade for the MKI since the prevailing belief here was that the 117S engine could not be used on older flanker designs due to change in dimensions.

[geeth]

Such high parameters, on retention of the overall dimensions and weight, are attained due to application of an absolutely new high-tech low pressure compressor with increased air flow and efficiency, a new high-performance turbine of increased reliability with an improved blade cooling system and digital engine control system integrated with the aircraft control system.

IMO, this approach can be tried in Kaveri Engine as well for improved performance, before trying it with exotic material like SCBs and what not - may be they are already trying it.

[Austin]

As for geometry and attachment points on the aircraft, the 117С engine conforms to its predecessors, generation 4 AL-31F and AL-31FP engines. This makes it possible, with slightly developed engine nacelles and equipment, to use the 117С engine for modernization of the entire aircraft fleet of previously manufactured Su-27/Su-30, operational both by the Russian and foreign Air Force.

The replacement for AL-31F series of engine in RuAF for the Su-27SM and Su-34 program has been Salyut AL-31FM1 series of engine that provides thrust of ~ 13.3T over 31FP 12.5T. There is the FM2 underdevelopment with a thrust rating of ~ 14.2T

The FM series guys argue that it needs very little change if customer decides to change from AL-31F series engine to FM1 or FM2 when the latter is available and it has found favours with the MOD in upgrade program.

The 117S/117 engine on the contrary has been favoured for Su-35 and PAK-FA program and is not being used to retrofit old aircraft or even the new Su-34 , which makes me believe the 117 engine will need some major modification on Flanker and not worth the effort.

So if the IAF decides to upgrade the MKI engine I would think the FM1 or FM2 will be most likely replacement then 117S series and considering they RuAF has been the customer via SM program that would find its own merit in IAF/MOD.

Surprisingly we jingo tend to romantic and obsessed with thrust but the IAF seems to be very happy with AL-31FP engine and there have never been any reports of low thrust for MKI on the contrary its just been the other way round , which makes me believe the IAF will stick to FP with lic production of the same,

[Prasad]

Austin,
It really isn't about the thrust wrt the new engines at all imho. iirc the irbis or the newer aesa radars were supposedly not fit for the MKI due to the lack of power generating ability of the current AL-31FP engines on the MKI. These newer radars would need significantly higher power to run which the current engine couldn't provide and newer engines couldn't be fitted on the mki. if such an option is available, then rather than excess thrust, excess power generating ability might come in handy for a better and stronger radar.

[Philip]

The Russian "carrot" of the SU-35 to the PRC is partly because it wants to recover its loss by Chinese reverse-engineering of the Flanker and other eqpt.It can charge a bomb for it and the PRC will have to pay.The PLAF desperately needs 5th-gen tech and the west is v.wary of it.The Russians are also developing their own 5th-gen PAK-FA along with India for our own FGFA,which will be superior to the Flankers .Upgraded India Flankers are also to get some 5th-gen tech.Russia would far prefer for China to have some eqpt.which will be inferior to it and which it can easily counter in a spat,rather than have the PRC acquire western tech by hook or by crook (Pak).

It is however worth the IAF acquiring a couple of SU-34 sqds. for the dedicated strategic/tactical bombing role ,giving the IAF a strong "air leg" of the triad.We are supposed to be building a toal of about 250 SU-30 MKIs.Adding two sqds. of SU-34s would be worthwhile.These could have internal weapons bays adding to their stealth capabilities.THis is required urgently as our SSBN capability still has a few years to mature and a window of vulnerability exists with the IAF's rapidly dwindling numbers.

[Singha]

the FM2 apart from a beefed up auxiliary power to drive aesa radars and next-gen jamming kit might also feature new materials and stuff that increases engine life and reliability while maintaining or reducing the fuel consumption in normal use...parts could be redesigned to simplify repair and inspection... would be good know what FM1 and FM2 puts on the table other than higher peak wet thrust.

if the MKI goes for a deep-MLU around 2015-2020 in batches, and gets Irbis-E/Zhuk, with an eye to keeping in service 20 more yrs then they might decide to spend extra to put in the FM2 engine...should also help with the brahmos/nirbhay type XL loads.

but more urgently we need:-
OLS-50
more sensor fusion
fleet wide datalink to awacs / gci be completed
towed decoy & MAwS & DIRCM-on-fighter technology to burn out AAM seekers
successors to the R73 and R77
Sudarshan
Astra mk1

[Austin]

Austin,
It really isn't about the thrust wrt the new engines at all imho. iirc the irbis or the newer aesa radars were supposedly not fit for the MKI due to the lack of power generating ability of the current AL-31FP engines on the MKI. These newer radars would need significantly higher power to run which the current engine couldn't provide and newer engines couldn't be fitted on the mki. if such an option is available, then rather than excess thrust, excess power generating ability might come in handy for a better and stronger radar.

Prasad there was already an article by the designer or some one senior of NIIP on future upgrade for BARS which brings it to Irbis standards , it does not mention the need to have better engine for better power and things like that.

For all we know the AL-31FP can be tweaked or in existing form can generate the desired power. Considering the investment we have done on lic producing AL-31FP in India it would be a long time that we will see the FP on MKI.

[negi]

Austin that was from NPO Saturn's website and it categorically mentions the 117c(117s) , as per Igorr 117 (the way Ru goes about it they might reveal it under a new name) is a completely different engine for PAKFA but I did not get time to cross check this, what's your take ?

[Austin]

Austin that was from NPO Saturn's website and it categorically mentions the 117c(117s) , as per Igorr 117 (the way Ru goes about it they might reveal it under a new name) is a completely different engine for PAKFA but I did not get time to cross check this, what's your take ?

What the Russian figured out with their experience in 90's is giving a system new marketing name rather then just differentiating it by adding extra designation( e.g 117 and 117S although they both power different gen aircraft ) makes the systems export prospect more promising , so I wont be surprised if they give the 117 a new marketing designation.

The main different between 117S and 117 is the latter uses newer hot parts which gives it a higher thrust ( ~ 15 T ) and a reduction of weight by ~ 150 kg has been achieved over 117S.

If 117S was easily interchangeable with AL-31 engine without needing any structural modification to the aircraft then Ru MOD would have selected it for SM and Su-34 upgrade , the older Flanker and older batch of Su-34 and the prototypes were using AL-31F engines , that makes Saturns claim more suspicious. I think the Naval Flanker upgrade too would get the FM1 series.

[SaiK]

No we don't need 117S upgrade rather directly go for the AL41 s combined along with pak-fa manufacturing. We can also wait for the AESA to mature to AlGaN t/rs., while MMRCA candidate would go for the available GaaS AESA experiences.

[b_patel]

I wonder if the MLU Su-30's would use the RAM coatings from the SU-35BM or PAK-FA/FGFA? That's assuming the MLU would included new RAM, which i hope it does. I guess it would come down to how expensive the PAK-FA/FGFA RAM is. Also would the upgraded Su-30's get a new munitions package?

[SaiK]

India is also in the process of acquiring 270 Russian Sukhoi jets worth 12 billion dollars !

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101129/bs ... cymedvedev.

"Su35-MKI"

[Indranil]

^^^ That would be reading too much into the article.

I am fairly sure that the 270 Sukhoi jets are the present Su-30 MKI plans!

No new 270 Su-35 will come for 12 billion .

[Indranil]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jpRroRLCaYc/TKdpn ... -Story.jpg

So the WSO can take over controls of flying the aircraft if need be!

[Dmurphy]

Work on BrahMos supersonic missile over, trials to wait

He said BrahMos scientists are now waiting for the Su-30MKI aircraft to be provided by Indian Air Force to act as a platform for testing the aerial version

Didn't 2 MKIs fly to russia sometime last year for Brahmos integration? Can't find the link though.

[Austin]

Here is some specs on AL-31FP engine found at UEC website

http://www.uk-odk.ru/eng/products/milit ... ion/al31f/

[nits]

Making of a Sukhoi Su-30 Flanker

[Singha]

amazing...the size of a family house, but it runs with the hares and hounds.

[Cain Marko]

I wish they had that for the MKI, would be interesting to see how much composites they use.

[Gaur]

I wish they had that for the MKI, would be interesting to see how much composites they use.

There is a good chance that it is MKI. It is a dual seater with canard configuration. Note that it is Irkut which produces MKI and MKM. Also, note that the video was uploaded in july 2006. The first 2 MKM prototypes were built in 2006 which were nothing but converted MKIs used for testing. So,this cannot be MKM and in all probability it is MKI.

[nits]

Could not find making of MKI but for got hands on this video where MKI is literally dancing... also we get to see some of its awesome aspects and features...

[Singha]

does pilot of MKI need to take his left hand off the throttle and use a separate stick to turn the TVC on and manipulate its angle? or is it somehow seamlessly integrated into the FCS such that it kicks in when the computer says normal airflow cannot do what the pilot is trying to do?

how does the 2D TVC on F22 get controlled?

[Cain Marko]

I wish they had that for the MKI, would be interesting to see how much composites they use.

There is a good chance that it is MKI. It is a dual seater with canard configuration. Note that it is Irkut which produces MKI and MKM. Also, note that the video was uploaded in july 2006. The first 2 MKM prototypes were built in 2006 which were nothing but converted MKIs used for testing. So,this cannot be MKM and in all probability it is MKI.

I did not see canards. No look at TVC either. Also iirc, aren't the MKIs now almost entirely made in India (not to say that the vid can't be older - russian made MKIs). In either case, current MKIs are being made from scratch in India, and the composite %age was supposed to increase.

CM.

[shiv]

Could not find making of MKI but for got hands on this video where MKI is literally dancing... also we get to see some of its awesome aspects and features...

The russkies are second to none in making spectacularly beautiful videos.

[Gaur]

I did not see canards. No look at TVC either. Also iirc, aren't the MKIs now almost entirely made in India (not to say that the vid can't be older - russian made MKIs). In either case, current MKIs are being made from scratch in India, and the composite %age was supposed to increase.

CM.

Engines can only be seen during take off and it is not necessary to use TVC for that. So, perhaps they are AL-31FP and perhaps not. But I can definitely spot the canards during take off. So, it has to be MK series. And you are right. At that time HAL was manufacturing MKIs. IRKUT stopped manufacturing them from 2004. So, if the video was older, then there is a possibility that it is MKI.

Anyways, as I said earlier it should be MK series. Now it cannot be MKK series used by China and some other AFs because they are manufactured mainly at KNAAPO (some are also manufactured at IAPO but none at IRKUT). That only leaves us with Malaysian MKMs as IRKUT had not yet manufactured Algerian MKAs. So, if the video was taken in 2006, then they have to be early MKI prototypes being used as MKMs testbeds. If it is an earlier video then it should be MKI. Of course, all this is said assuming that the video was not recorded pre 2001-2002. Again, this is merely a guesswork by me. So feel free to make any corrections.

[Austin]

does pilot of MKI need to take his left hand off the throttle and use a separate stick to turn the TVC on and manipulate its angle? or is it somehow seamlessly integrated into the FCS such that it kicks in when the computer says normal airflow cannot do what the pilot is trying to do?

TVC of MKI is integrated with FCS

Great Video of MKI in action

[Indranil]

In addition, I think they have the provision to enable/disable TVC.

[shiv]

In addition, I think they have the provision to enable/disable TVC.

Yes. I recall reading this.

[andy B]

In addition, I think they have the provision to enable/disable TVC.

Yes. I recall reading this.

IIRC the switch is there to basically switch on/off tvc once its on it gets controlled by the FCS itself. The pilot doesnt do anything more to control the TVC djin computers do it onlee.

Btw where is George kaka Rambha thread is a bit incomplete without his informative stints every now and then.

[Singha]

yeah I was thinking would be a hellish job to control three things - TVC stick, main stick and throttle lever with 2 hands. a well trained small monkey installed in its own ejection seat left side of cockpit would need to respond to verbal cmds and manage the throttle.

[manish.rastogi]

Loved both the videos.....super duper awesome....I now love Su 30 MKI even more....

[Arya Sumantra]

Great Video of MKI in action

This one takes the cake. Low ground clearance overflight at 3:05 is awesome

[nachiket]

^^Is that from some Russian movie? Most of the footage is real. The last part with the Su-35 dodging the missile is obviously CGI.