Su-30: News and Discussion

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 May 2009 19:02

^^ I watched that video again after hearing the news. I just wish our pilots had ejected cleanly like those guys considering that was a low level ejection.
Its just too painful to lose our warriors and their precious experience.

Malay · Post by **Malay** » 01 May 2009 19:42

Dont the new generation ejection seats have 0/0 ejection seats. Meaning that pilots can eject at almost Ground Level and still they would be safe. I think the Pakistani F-16's have such Martin Baker ejection seats installed.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 May 2009 20:11

Malay wrote:Dont the new generation ejection seats have 0/0 ejection seats. Meaning that pilots can eject at almost Ground Level and still they would be safe. I think the Pakistani F-16's have such Martin Baker ejection seats installed.

The Su-30 has 0-0 KD-36DM ejection seats. However, even the best ejection seats cannot guarantee the life of the aircrew. There are a large number of factors that affect the pilot from the time he ejects right upto the time he lands.

Go through the article below and others at the site to get a better idea.

http://www.ejectionsite.com/vigilante.htm
Admins, please let me know if the link needs to be moved to a different thread.

George J · Post by **George J** » 01 May 2009 20:25

Prasant wrote:This is what I meant by DDM's bullshit analyses.

This is their line of though: The WSO was a Mig-21 pilot, hence this is related to the crash, therefore the IAF is showing incompetence. Pathetic!

He is merely stating/quoting the facts. If DASI folks are meant to be qualified on the a/c they are evaluating then perhaps Wing Co (RIP) should not have been there (its like your Hindi Teacher grading your Math paper, sure he knows a lot of math but is qualified to grade your math paper?). He also goes on to quote why the Wing Co was there-pilot shortage.

Its an unfortunate incident, loss of a very senior pilot is VERY sad (the a/c does not matter, it will be replaced good pilots are very hard to come by) but there is nothing DDM about it.

Also Rahul Singh is a friend of BRF (I know you may not be aware of all the details) and its an old unwritten rule that we try and be nice to our friends in the media who go above and beyond their call of duty.

Also there is an ENTIRE thread dedicated to Flight Safety where the whys/wherefore of the Crash/any Military Crash is being discussed. Please use your common sense and direct your angst to the right thread. This thread was meant to track Su-30/30MKI developments not to discuss jingo wet dreams Su-32/34 and other unrelated stories.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 May 2009 20:33

I just wish our pilots had ejected cleanly like those guys considering that was a low level ejection.

shameek, malay, it's a cardinal sin to pass opinions and judgement before we even know what happened. please wait before the details are out. and just so you know, russkie ejection seats are probably the best in business.

anything can go wrong at such a low level, even a sudden gust of wind can lead to the parachutes not opening and fatal terminal velocities.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 May 2009 20:50

Hey Rahul,

I didnt mean that our pilots erred in ejecting nor am I doubting the equipment. It was wishful thinking on my part that if only something had not gone wrong, they could both be alive and well today.
I can delete that post if it seems inappropriate.

Shameek

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 May 2009 20:53

shameekg wrote:Hey Rahul,

I didnt mean that our pilots erred in ejecting nor am I doubting the equipment. It was wishful thinking on my part that if only something had not gone wrong, they could both be alive and well today.
I can delete that post if it seems inappropriate.

Shameek

Whatever you mean - if you are going to talk about this accident - please do it on the flight safety thread.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 May 2009 20:59

@ Shiv: Point noted. Will continue there.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 01 May 2009 21:03

George J wrote:
Prasant wrote:This is what I meant by DDM's bullshit analyses.

This is their line of though: The WSO was a Mig-21 pilot, hence this is related to the crash, therefore the IAF is showing incompetence. Pathetic!
He is merely stating/quoting the facts. If DASI folks are meant to be qualified on the a/c they are evaluating then perhaps Wing Co (RIP) should not have been there (its like your Hindi Teacher grading your Math paper, sure he knows a lot of math but is qualified to grade your math paper?). He also goes on to quote why the Wing Co was there-pilot shortage.

My reply here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 05#p662005

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 04 May 2009 16:36

Folks, the second pilot/weapons operator on the SU-30 is at risk of being hit against the canopy during ejection.
If the canopy release is not clean the second pilot's ejection seat will hit against the frame.

rsharma · Post by **rsharma** » 04 May 2009 16:54

^^^^
If the canopy release is not clean, both the pilot & WSO risk hitting it; safety depends on too many factors: who ejects first , the direction of ejection relative to the ground, the orientation of the airframe wrt the ground at the time of ejection, ejection altitude...

IMHO the only possible reason may be that:

1) The a/c while in an uncontrollable spin & descending very fast was just a 100 odd feet AGL.
2) The direction of ejection of WSO seat was perpendicular & towards the ground itself, and the thrust of the seat propelled him towards the ground, so before the chute could deploy, the WSO had already lost that crucial amount of altitude, hence the fatal injuries.

Just my tuppence.

nishug · Post by **nishug** » 04 May 2009 16:58

I was in pune two days back ... some one told me that problem was with parachutes .... pilots ejected properly nut parachutes didn't open properly

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 04 May 2009 21:00

Ajay K wrote:Folks, the second pilot/weapons operator on the SU-30 is at risk of being hit against the canopy during ejection.
If the canopy release is not clean the second pilot's ejection seat will hit against the frame.

and you came upon this discovery by doing what? researching and studying the way that the canopy is shattered through experiments or simply by looking at pictures ? or having studied in-depth the Su-30 or Su-27UB ejections to date ? what clearance studies have you done ?

and you're saying that Russian designers of the Su-27UB were not smart enough to reach the conclusion that you did by just looking at some photo, even though they actually fire a dummy through a mock cockpit on a rocket sled, seated on the same K-36 ejection seat that Wing Cmdr Nara was seated on ?

the K-36 ejection seat contacts the canopy through a canopy breaker that is meant to shatter the canopy. the pilot won't even come in contact with an intact canopy at any stage as its shattered before that. some canopies have an explosive cord installed in them (like the Harrier, where the pilot may have to eject when in hover mode, in which case the canopy even when separated, will not fly backwards and the seat lacking canopy breakers).

link

(c) Canopy Fragmentation

MDC (MB Seats)
Canopy breakers (MB MK-10, K-36, ACES-II)
Explosive Fragmentation (F-16)
Pyrotechnic for Canopy fragilisation (Dassault -Mirage)
Inflatable Restraints
Restraint Net -

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 May 2009 21:01

^^ Please let us carry on all discussions about the accident on the flight safety thread. That will ensure the information is at one place.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 May 2009 01:53

rsharma wrote:^^^^
If the canopy release is not clean, both the pilot & WSO risk hitting it; safety depends on too many factors: who ejects first , the direction of ejection relative to the ground, the orientation of the airframe wrt the ground at the time of ejection, ejection altitude...

IMHO the only possible reason may be that:

1) The a/c while in an uncontrollable spin & descending very fast was just a 100 odd feet AGL.
2) The direction of ejection of WSO seat was perpendicular & towards the ground itself, and the thrust of the seat propelled him towards the ground, so before the chute could deploy, the WSO had already lost that crucial amount of altitude, hence the fatal injuries.

Just my tuppence.

http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/russia.htm

zero-zero K-36DM ejection seats

The state-of-the-art technologies developed by NPP Zvezda have made it possible to create a family of ejection seats meeting the above requirements. For instance, the K-36D-3.5 and K-360-3.sA seats retain all the safety features embodied in the original K-36D. They also have an increased range of vertical travel (31/2in [85mm] for the K-36D-3-5 and 3 3/4in [95mm]for the K-36D-3.5A).

Both seats feature a two-position reclining seat back which improves the seat's ergonomic qualities (pilot comfort, upward and rearward view).

A new system of thrusters for lateral manoeuvring has been evolved for controlling the seat's lateral motion. The seat also features a multi-programme electronic command system connected to the aircraft's data exchange system. This optimizes the seat's trajectory, taking into account factors such as pitch and bank angles and rates, airspeed height and sink rate. It was the first model of K-36 to incorporate an automatic system to adjust the ejection kinematics to suit the occupant's weight, so reducing the risk of injury.

To reduce the minimum altitude required for safe ejection, NPP Zvezda has provided operation modes in which parachute deployment is accelerated and the rocket motor cuts out immediately after separation from the aircraft in the event of ejection at large bank angles.

Extreme attitudes

The multi-programme electronic system's computer is produced in Russia and has been specially developed by the Ramenskoye Avionics Design Bureau (RPKB) to meet NPP Zvezda specifications. When the seat is ejected at extreme bank angles, for example, the automatic control system adjusts the seat's trajectory in the transverse plane. This allows the seat to gain additional height, ensuring parachute deployment. In cases of ejection in inverted flight, the main rocket motor is not ignited and the parachute is deployed immediately after the seat's separation from the aircraft, considerably reducing the minimum safe ejection altitude.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 May 2009 05:17

any video (private/public/..) shots of the event could reveal more. of course, given permission to view.

rsharma · Post by **rsharma** » 05 May 2009 09:54

Thanx for the link Chetak; it was very informative!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 06 May 2009 04:37

Russian team arrives today to probe Sukhoi crash

...
The flight data recorder, also called the black box, has been recovered from the crash site but sources familiar with the investigation said it had been badly damaged in the accident. The recorder has now been sent to England for forensic examination.

As first reported by this newspaper, the incident has left the Air Force astounded due to the way its most advanced fighter went out of control.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 06 May 2009 05:15

From the above report

Indian Air Force (IAF) admitted that it was ‘confounded’ by the accident.

Air Chief Marshal F H Major described the crash as ‘bizarre’ when asked about the possible cause of the accident

Another top officer said the Air Force was ‘confounded’ by the way the fighter crashed after going out of control last week.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 May 2009 09:35

RaviBg wrote

Quote:
...
The flight data recorder, also called the black box, has been recovered from the crash site but sources familiar with the investigation said it had been badly damaged in the accident. The recorder has now been sent to England for forensic examination.

As first reported by this newspaper, the incident has left the Air Force astounded due to the way its most advanced fighter went out of control.

Somthing does not sound right about this?

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 06 May 2009 09:41

Aditya_V wrote:
RaviBg wrote

Quote:
...
The flight data recorder, also called the black box, has been recovered from the crash site but sources familiar with the investigation said it had been badly damaged in the accident. The recorder has now been sent to England for forensic examination.

As first reported by this newspaper, the incident has left the Air Force astounded due to the way its most advanced fighter went out of control.

Somthing does not sound right about this?

This may be pure DDM but if indeed the BB was sent to UK it tells a sad story of India and IAFs forensic abilities. We have lost so many Russian planes in the past also.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 May 2009 09:56

AmitR wrote:[

This may be pure DDM but if indeed the BB was sent to UK it tells a sad story of India and IAFs forensic abilities. We have lost so many Russian planes in the past also.

It is DDM

Our reporters are complete idiots. That damn FDR was retrieved only days ago and this buffoon has sent it to his qyoon mother.

The Saras data recorder had to be sent to the UK because all the external contacts to retrieve data had been damaged, requiring opening up of the FDR. That opening could have been done here - but you know the rules - if you are not the manufacturer - you must send it to an agent of the manufacturer to open the box - or else you have only yourself to blame for loss of data.

If an FDR is made in India it will be dealt with fully in India. As reported earliest some efforts are on to make an FDR here.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 06 May 2009 15:55

its all DDM
IAF denies grounding Sukhoi fleet

The Indian Air Force has denied grounding the fleet of Sukhoi-30 MKI.

There were reports that the Indian Air Force had grounded its fleet and summoned experts from Russia to re-examine the aircraft.

IAF has said that a fleet is grounded only if a specific defect is identified and needs to be remedied. It is generally done on the recommendation of the manufacturer of the aircraft, and in this case, no defect has been noticed in the Su-30 MKI fleet.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 May 2009 18:49

Absolutely tragic and one's heart goes out to the families of the pilots.This crash must be thoroughly probed.Was the aircraft built in Russia or in India? With the recovery of the flight recorders,and the fact that one pilot survived,it should not be too difficult to determine the cause of the accident.This was the first crash in 12 years,which is a very long and impressive safety period.However,military flying is perhaps the most dangerous of all occupations,with helo accidents having a far higher rate than conventional aircraft.There is a statistic about the USMC and their high Harrier losses too,which are also echoed in the IN's stats,because of the VSTOL nature of the aircraft making it reportedly as difficult and dangerous as flying a helo.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 08 May 2009 11:32

Callin AUSTIN

Austin you had posted a pdf file "Basic and Applied Problems of Stealth Technologies....N Lagar'kov and M.A. Pogosyan" in KeyFora about a month ago... it is not available for download as more than 10downloads have happened..

Can you please post it here..

If anyone has a copy please upload it somewhere and post download link.. please

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2009 12:12

rakall your email id please

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 08 May 2009 12:19

Austin wrote:rakall your email id please

band318 at gmail dot com

thanks a lot Austin

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 08 May 2009 12:27

Austin,

Can you share it with everyone ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2009 13:13

Yes here you go

http://rapidshare.com/files/230508069/B ... s.pdf.html

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 May 2009 13:19

shiv wrote:
AmitR wrote:[

This may be pure DDM but if indeed the BB was sent to UK it tells a sad story of India and IAFs forensic abilities. We have lost so many Russian planes in the past also.
It is DDM

Our reporters are complete idiots. That damn FDR was retrieved only days ago and this buffoon has sent it to his qyoon mother.

The Saras data recorder had to be sent to the UK because all the external contacts to retrieve data had been damaged, requiring opening up of the FDR. That opening could have been done here - but you know the rules - if you are not the manufacturer - you must send it to an agent of the manufacturer to open the box - or else you have only yourself to blame for loss of data.

If an FDR is made in India it will be dealt with fully in India. As reported earliest some efforts are on to make an FDR here.

Its our bullshit DDM for sure.

Even the tail number of the Su has not been disclosed.

The AF has clamped down while the investigation is on.

Its the over active imagination of "experts" in the media.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 08 May 2009 13:55

Austin,

Just one humble request don't circulate it and things like it openly.

I am still at BRF though mostly in lurk mode.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2009 14:32

Sumeet wrote:Austin,

Just one humble request don't circulate it and things like it openly. I am still at BRF though mostly in lurk mode.

Oh Sumeet , I thought it was no more a state secret any more , but I would be careful next time around since you still lurk

BTW guys this stuff belongs to Sumeet and was shared by him some time back with the BRF oldies , so all credits to him , Thanks buddy

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 08 May 2009 14:57

Austin wrote:Yes here you go

http://rapidshare.com/files/230508069/B ... s.pdf.html

Cannot download this as the link says - maximum number of downloads have been reached.. Guess i was late..

Can you please upload this again in rapidshare or ifile.it..

somebody please upload in ifile.it

thanks..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2009 15:18

check your mail saar

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 08 May 2009 17:01

Austin wrote:check your mail saar

Got it now..

problem is cant check webmail at work.. so had to wait till now..

thanks a lot Austin

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 08 May 2009 18:00

There's a very sweet picture of the Su30MKI in latest edition of Force magazine. paint scheme looks unique. Its fully loaded with PGM's etc.

sharduldesai · Post by **sharduldesai** » 08 May 2009 21:03

Hey Austin,

can you send me the file on shardul.desai@gmail.com please. the mail id mentioned by me in my registration is official one. and cant receive such mails on official id .. i suspect it will be qurantined.

Am unable to download from the link on rapdishare.. says only allowed to download 10 times..

Thanks for sending in advance.

Warm Regards
Shardul Desai

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 09 May 2009 01:13

Austin please upload that pdf in depositfiles or megaupload
or someone else who has got it please do it

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 May 2009 14:11

Philip wrote:This crash must be thoroughly probed.Was the aircraft built in Russia or in India?

From indications it appears that the aircraft was russian built.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 12 May 2009 23:43

Sukhois in US
what will they learn from it?