Su-30: News and Discussion

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Singha
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 27 Mar 2014 09:30

russian govt has nothing but contempt for MMS and his GC certified crew.

if regime change occurs, clock can be reset and hardball negotiations restart.

they need funds to amortize the cost of the PAKFA development program as its way too complex and big to export to smaller clients so must be funded by russian and indian funds, maybe iran & vietnam would be interested also but their numbers will be small.

they can complete PAKFA IOC on internal funds, but when time comes to volume produce, would they like a product that costs $400 mil -each :twisted:

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 27 Mar 2014 14:27

I erred,500-600 FGFAs/PAK-FAs in addition to the "deep upgrades" of Flankers.
The current shortfall is 8 sqds.the same no. which I've said will exists even if LCAs replace all MIG-21s one-for-one. Unless we buy some more/assemble an existing type in service ,e will still be shorthanded a decade on.The MIG-20 is a cheaper more cost-effective buy than extra Flamkers.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby vaibhav.n » 28 Mar 2014 17:11

Su-30MKI computers going kaput as detailed by the IAF Air Safety Magazine.

On 29 Jul 12, Sqn Ldr T Shanmukha F(P) was detailed to carry out a dark night AAR mission on a Su-30 MKI aircraft with Fg Offr PK Singh F(N) as his WSO. After completion of the AAR mission, while carrying out procedures in the sector, they observed Mission Computer-1 failure warning on the MFWS and simultaneously all MFD's and HUD went blank along with audio warnings of main navigation system failure and Air Data System failure. The aircrew noticed that the auto pilot was misbehaving along with incorrect readings of A/H and compass. Both crew immediately analysed the situation correctly as RIF system power supply failure. They kept their composure and carried out a no-gyro let down to recover the aircraft safely at base in marginal weather. Sqn Ldr T Shanmukha and Fg Offr PK Singh displayed a high degree of professionalism in handling a critical emergency and recovering an aircraft safely during dark night.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 28 Mar 2014 18:15

^^^^^

I thought that was considered a minor glitch. No?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 28 Mar 2014 20:17

losing instruments at night is not a minor problem. imagine it had been raining hard too. I hope backup analog artificial horizon, air speed indicator, radio altimeter and compass is there, else these all-MFD gen next things give a little shiver to me. a laminated paper map and garmin handheld tucked in a side pocket might help too.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 28 Mar 2014 21:01

That is what I thought.

But, our resident expert on Russo affairs (in another thread) seems to be inclined to think otherwise. : ( In fact the expert claims consulting with a person in the know about such things.

Well ,according to a gent very much in the know (discretion prevents me from giving more details for obvious reasons),.............................The SU-30 component problems with Russia are "over-hyped",combat capability,etc.not greatly affected,glitches do happen.The problems are being worked upon by the supplier,The Russians will always stand by us as they've done,it's in their strategic interest.


(BTW, I would have liked the Russians to say they will stand by us because they are the suppliers and have a written contract. Strategic interest, although very important and relevant, are unimportant in this case.)

Confusing. Especially considering that one of the news articles claiming that the problem is a whole year old.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 28 Mar 2014 23:52

>>>Both crew immediately analysed the situation correctly as RIF system power supply failure.

RIF is the entire avionics and WCS nomenclature. So a) Russian MC failed - MC 1 and b) PSU for Rif again Russian, was the reason

No wonder HAL wants them to intervene ASAP and take ownership and solve the issue.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2014 07:13

Does the rafale pbuh and tejas have backup analog dials?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 29 Mar 2014 08:32

How many MKI is impacted by faulty Russian MC and how many MKI experienced this problem while in flight ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 29 Mar 2014 08:34

Singha wrote:Does the rafale pbuh and tejas have backup analog dials?


Tejas I have seen in cockpit but it is fair to assume all modern jets have some basic rudimentary backup navigation equipment to allow it to fly back home in case of cockpit failures..... hopefully pilots are regularly trained to use them.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 29 Mar 2014 09:39

Austin wrote:How many MKI is impacted by faulty Russian MC and how many MKI experienced this problem while in flight ?


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4042&start=3720#p1611294

A shocking 50% of the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter fleet is on the ground due to unresolved servicing issues with the aircraft's Russian manufacturers.


"As the displays blanking off is a serious and critical issue affecting the exploitation of aircraft (it) needs corrective action/remedial measures on priority," he pleads in a letter dated 28 February this year, reminding the Russians that he's been raising the issue since 7 March 2013 but to no avail.


Air Marshal Denzil Keelor, one of IAF's most decorated fighter pilots, is dismayed. "In-flight failures such as the ones being reported render a fighter aircraft vulnerable. When a fighter is being flown below optimum capability, it becomes more vulnerable to an adversary. No aircraft should be flown unless it performing to 100% capability," he warns.


"Due to non-availability of facilities for overhaul of aggregates (aircraft parts), the serviceability (availability for flying) of Su-30MKI is slowly decreasing and demand for Aircraft on Ground (AOG) items on the rise," HAL's Nasik division again pleads with Russia's Rosboronexport in a telling letter dated 24 December 2013. Even the revised deadlines committed the Russians to set up the repair-overhaul facility at HAL by December 2013, and overhaul the first aircraft by June 2014. This seems nowhere on the horizon.


Can IAF outsource this to LM?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2014 15:00

was AM Keelor the Mig21 pilot who bagged a starfighter in opening day of 1971 war?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 29 Mar 2014 15:37

NRao wrote:A shocking 50% of the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter fleet is on the ground due to unresolved servicing issues with the aircraft's Russian manufacturers.


Sounds like Alarmist kind of news if it was 50 % of our entire MKI fleet was grounded we would have known so far by more authentic sources like CAG.

IIRC they are talking of 50 % of certain batch procured earlier.

Can IAF outsource this to LM?


LM why ?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby fanne » 29 Mar 2014 16:17

Both Keelor brothers were Gnat pilots and sabre slayers

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 29 Mar 2014 18:53

Austin ji,

* Just to be clear, that is NOT my quote. enough confusion out there even without this
* "Alarmist". Perhaps. But with around 180 or so MKIs out there and IF this problem began a year ago, can we expect 90 to have this problem? The article seems to be making those two assertions
* "Why LM"? Well ............ they seem to be the best at dealing with a turkey. That is why. Simple. I think most would agree, even a single MKI sitting on the ramp with this problem is a turkey. But then glitches do happen. Major, minor, makes no difference.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 29 Mar 2014 20:19

I asked very recently,as mentioned in the LCA td. ,a bird very much in the know of matters given his position and location in the flock.The problems are "over-hyped" was his assertion when quizzed on detail.He was categoric about it.The glitches allegedly do not degrade in serious manner the combat capability of the aircraft,which would've been different had it been an engine problem.In answer to the Q about life-cycle costs,life of Russian vs western eqpt.,the differing concepts of design,doctrine,etc.,between the two,and why we did not then acquire along with the aircraft from Russia sufficient spares,components,etc to last several years,he said that "negotiations for the same are done by the MOD not the IAF",byzantine bargaining with OEMs,making us "penny wise pound foolish".

The LCA was proceeding very well,but he said that we should have no illusions about it being a replacement for the Rafale."in '84 it was conceived as a replacement for our MIG-21s".A lot depends upon the production rate.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 29 Mar 2014 21:14

NRao wrote:Austin ji,

* Just to be clear, that is NOT my quote. enough confusion out there even without this
* "Alarmist". Perhaps. But with around 180 or so MKIs out there and IF this problem began a year ago, can we expect 90 to have this problem? The article seems to be making those two assertions
* "Why LM"? Well ............ they seem to be the best at dealing with a turkey. That is why. Simple. I think most would agree, even a single MKI sitting on the ramp with this problem is a turkey. But then glitches do happen. Major, minor, makes no difference.


Yes I know the article but nothing official about it , iirc it also claims similar availability rate for M2K and Mig-29 in IAF :wink:

LM needs to first fix its own turkey....ala JSF :P

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2014 15:29

Faulty Avionics Gear Grounds Some Indian Su-30s
NEW DELHI — Avionics failures have led to the grounding of more than 20 of India’s Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jets, with Indian and Russian officials each suggesting the problem subsystems could have been supplied by the other side.

The avionics faults have included the head-up display and the mission computer, an Indian Air Force source said.

India has contracted to acquire 272 Russian-designed Su-30 aircraft, with 140 being license-produced by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

The remainder is being provided by Russia in three phases; the first began in 1996. The grounded twin-engine planes were built in India.

No HAL official would publicly comment on the faulty avionics systems.

But a source in HAL said the firm has sent letters to Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport complaining about faulty subsystems supplied by Irkut, the original equipment manufacturer.

A Russian diplomat here said it is not clear whether the problems have been caused by subsystems supplied by Irkut or subsystems procured from Indian vendors by HAL. Aircraft built in India use subsystems from both countries.

Five HAL divisions are involved in license-production of the Su-30 at its Nasik-based facility in the central state of Maharashtra. Thousands of aircraft components are outsourced from domestic vendors in addition to the components and subsystems procured from Irkut.

Most of the high-tech systems, including avionics, are procured from Irkut, the official said.

The Russians supply a majority of the casing and forgings, bearings, connectors, switches and circuit-breakers, the HAL source said. And the Russians have not transferred all aircraft technology and continue to supply ready-made parts for which no license has yet been granted, the HAL source said.

The licensed production is performed under the supervision of about 50 Russian officials to ensure their technology processes, the HAL source added.

India began licensed Su-30 production in various phases in 2004, and it expects to produce the last of the 140 aircraft by 2016.

HAL’s Nasik facility makes the airframe while all electrical items and assemblies are made at four different divisions of the company. The AL-31FP jet engine is manufactured at HAL’s Koraput division. The Hyderabad division makes the plane’s radar and radio equipment, and the Lucknow division makes mechanical and electrical instruments, including pumps and oxygen systems. The Korwa-based facility makes all navigational gear, which includes optical laser systems.

In addition to technical problems with the subsystems, the cost of the India-built aircraft is as much as 30 percent higher than the aircraft provided by Russia, the Indian Air Force source added.

The Indian-built aircraft cost more because of the need to procure the high-tech integrated subsystems from Irkut, and the cheaper labor in India is offset by inefficient procurement systems, the HAL source admitted.


The Indian Air Force has often complained about the shortage of spares and high-tech subsystems from Russia, hampering aircraft maintenance.The Russian diplomat said a steady supply of spare parts cannot be ensured because of erratic orders from India, slowing deliveries. Moreover, HAL and the Indian Air Force do not make long-term inventory and requirements plans, the diplomat added.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Apr 2014 16:18

and its going to happen even if we were talking F-18 or rafale. bottomline is for volume stuff 100+ units, its better to have inhouse products like Tejas if the host country does not operate the plane (Rus flies the Su27 and will fly the su35bm which is different sets of avionics).
now we have 270 or so Sukhois eventually....and still hostage to the suppliers from Russia, which does not operate Su30 platform similar to ours.

Antony sir's reign has not been glorious, but before retiring to his estate back in kerala perhaps he can crack some heads and place a firm order for 75 Tejas mk1 and 150 Mk2 with funding for HAL to start ordering long lead items for production, training people, building new plant and paying money to parts suppliers down the food chain.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 02 Apr 2014 16:41

Singha wrote:now we have 270 or so Sukhois eventually....and still hostage to the suppliers from Russia, which does not operate Su30 platform similar to ours.


They do Su-30SM is MKI and it uses HAL Supplied component iirc MC etc so does Malaysian MKM .......infact IIRC all the Su-30MK I/V/A/M/SM that are exported to many countries are just similar to IAF MKI barring the use of some 3rd party components in some case due to political reasons ....eg Malayasia not purchasing Israel components etc but uses Western ones.

Su-30 platforms are widely exported ones in Flanker series ...differed by customisation specific to individual countries.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby vic » 07 Apr 2014 10:35

So HAL has allegely got 100% ToT but even after 20 years of the deal, they cannot even do service, repair and maintenance of the Su-30MKI. Great going for screwdrivergiri by corrupt incompetent management of Navratna DPSU.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2014 10:51

vic , check interview with HAL on what they got from TOT etc posted earlier

viewtopic.php?p=1587933#p1587933


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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby vic » 07 Apr 2014 22:07

India should order another 50 Sukhois with higher level of indigenisaton from HAL and extend the production line till 2022, thereafter PAKFA can take over. Dump Rafale.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 07 Apr 2014 22:40

The problem is not with ordering Russian machines, seems it is the supply chain and support. If in 2014 we are talking of building a proper support system for the MKI, in India, some thing is wrong with picture. Who is to blame is another issue. Now it will take another 5+ years for it so stand up.

My read is that the Russians are great at design/test/build, but not much else. Their support seems to be badly deficient. Which is perhaps why the IAF did not even want them to participate in the MMRCA deal.

??????

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 08 Apr 2014 12:27

The hope in general was,Heavyweight div/stealth-Russian,Middleweight-Western,Lightweight-India (LCA).That way we got the best of both east and west and our own desi bird too.Covering all bases...or so it seemed.
Right now we have only the heavyweight division filled up,albeit with some current alleged niggling problems,the Lightweight contender has just passed the first "medicals",and the Middleweight chosen but ,where both sides have not sealed the deal.The cost of the Middleweight contender is equal to or even more than the heavyweight contender,which is leaving bean counters scratching their heads. It remains to be seen what the new dispensation decides.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby merlin » 08 Apr 2014 13:07

Singha wrote:Does the rafale pbuh and tejas have backup analog dials?


Tejas does not have any analog dials as backup. The get you home panels are also digital displays albeit their data feed comes with a separate power supply. It has a complete glass cockpit.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 08 Apr 2014 13:11

^ Philip are you Russian? I personally find your posts more and more disturbing and offending. If MoD or GoI acts how you want, we will go bubble bust in no time. We are not getting discounted weapons but we pay premium for each and every equipment. We can´t just keep paying the fake inflated prices.

How bean counters are to blamed if other party is refusing to fulfill their obligations? We saw what verbal or written promises (without any fine clause) do to us. So there is no point of paying 2-3x times without getting technology and design data. We may cancel this deal if nothing get signed within 2014-2015 time frame with fine clauses, industrial setup and technology.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 08 Apr 2014 13:15

New Govt in place will have no major policy impact. They might decide faster either to sign if conditions are met or call it off without going into loops and bring forward plan B.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2014 20:48

RKumar wrote:^ Philip are you Russian?

I know Philip. He is definitely a Russian :D :wink:
Sorry OT

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby member_23061 » 08 Apr 2014 21:34

Sorry OT ; Whatever happened to Igor the Russkie from the early part of the last decade?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2014 21:53

shiv wrote:
RKumar wrote:^ Philip are you Russian?

I know Philip. He is definitely a Russian :D :wink:
Sorry OT


You mean an Indian with a Russian philter?

That needs cleaning. Spares parts issue. Russian to set up a MRO in ND - after elections.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby nikhil_p » 11 Apr 2014 14:45

Noob pooch -

As the Rambha is a twin seater with dual redundant controls, is it possible that it can be flown with only one pilot if need be?. AFAIK the WSO is also a pilot. The thought comes from the aspect that in wartime - if and a big IF at that - one of our airbases is knocked out with loss/ removal of lets say half of the combat pilots, can the other half still fly all the planes.

I know it is far fetched - but still a thought!...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2014 15:53

AFAIK , the WSO is NOT a pilot and MKI can be flown by the pilot on the front cockpit and not the back.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby krishnan » 11 Apr 2014 15:57

In practice, the front seater is the pilot and the back seater is the "Wizzo", the WSO (Weapons Systems Operator). The pilot flies the aircraft and handles air-to-air and some ATG weapons, as well as countermeasures. The WSO takes care of the detailed aspects of navigation, ground radar mapping & target designation, setting up delivery solution for ATG weapons, designating for guided bombs/missiles, ECM, and so on. There are many tasks which overlap; either pilot or WSO can do the job depending on circumstances. The aircraft can be flown from either seat, however only the front cockpit driver can operate the helmet mounted sight (Sura) as sensors are only in the front. The rear cockpit has a HUD repeater.


vayu-sena

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby manjgu » 11 Apr 2014 18:01

nikhil_p... both the aircrafts and pilots are dispersed during war time to prevent such a catastrophic situation...

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 11 Apr 2014 18:06

Austin wrote:AFAIK , the WSO is NOT a pilot and MKI can be flown by the pilot on the front cockpit and not the back.


AFAIK, Su-30 MKI has dual controls where either of the cockpits can be used to fly the aircraft. This is unlike the Rafale, F-15, F-18 etc where only the front cockpit can be used to fly the aircraft.

This is the reason why Su-30MKI doesn't have any specialised type-conversion or training aircraft as every aircraft can be used for the job.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 11 Apr 2014 19:50

aren't those avionices from france? sextant?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 11 Apr 2014 23:42

RKumar wrote:^ Philip are you Russian? I personally find your posts more and more disturbing and offending.


RKumar ji, If Philip is Russian, then many more BRFites are American(to the core). I sincerely hope that you get disturbed and offended by their posts too. Otherwise you will be indulging in what is called as selective cherry picking.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 12 Apr 2014 01:16

Sir ji ... I am not anti Russian or anti West but I am pro India. I look after only Indian interests.


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