J & K news and discussion

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramana » 20 Aug 2008 21:15

archan, we are seeing the first shots of a new covert war going on which will remake the whole region. Action speaks louder than empty rhetoric. No need for India to express support for Baluch as that will reduce their legitimacy. More useful to support the Pakiban as they are non sarkari islamists.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sanjaykumar » 20 Aug 2008 21:56

It would be helpful to delineate India's options-everything from do nothing to doubling 'visas' in Jalalabad to being helpless while a convoy of one million armed Hindu men inder age 30 motor up to the Valley.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 20 Aug 2008 22:45

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Editorial/India_minus_K-word/articleshow/3382132.cms
India minus K-word

What Kashmir is reportedly witnessing today is fundamentally different: a cry for freedom backed not by guns but by the power of dissent — one of the foundation stones of the idea of India.


Syed Ali Shah Geelani, self-proclaimed leader of the separatist movement, is no M K Gandhi. But what if he and his followers were to adopt the strategies of non-cooperation and satyagraha which were used to gain independence, and were the prenatal influences which shaped the idea of India? Could the Indian state use physical force against such a peaceful mass movement — if in fact it did arise, as some say it now has — and still retain its moral idea of itself?


Perhaps Jag Suraiya missed the part when Geelani said he is a Paki.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby raji » 20 Aug 2008 23:10

Bharati wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Editorial/India_minus_K-word/articleshow/3382132.cms
India minus K-word

What Kashmir is reportedly witnessing today is fundamentally different: a cry for freedom backed not by guns but by the power of dissent — one of the foundation stones of the idea of India.


Syed Ali Shah Geelani, self-proclaimed leader of the separatist movement, is no M K Gandhi. But what if he and his followers were to adopt the strategies of non-cooperation and satyagraha which were used to gain independence, and were the prenatal influences which shaped the idea of India? Could the Indian state use physical force against such a peaceful mass movement — if in fact it did arise, as some say it now has — and still retain its moral idea of itself?


Perhaps Jag Suraiya missed the part when Geelani said he is a Paki.



So, if people in Haryana or Andhra use Gandhian methods of non-cooperation and satyagraha, should they be allowed to secede from India too ? By that definition, if the Welsh and the Scots choose Gandhian methods, would they be allowed to secede too ? How about Texas ? and then how about Sindh and Baloch ? Northern Srilanka ?

The latest call for secession in the valley was caused by 40 acres of land being given to Hindu Pilgrims........Gandhi called for independence from a foreign force that had been brutally exploiting us for centuries........not over some 40 acres of land or because the British were Christians........

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby RamaY » 20 Aug 2008 23:18



Definitely... it is India minus K-muslims... They all can go to whereever they want. I heared that Pakis wanted to welcome them during their Mujafarabad march... please let them go.. who is asking them to stay in india...

Now that this Geelani guy proclaimed to be a paki, he can go to pakistan proper... and leave POK as well...

I think we all should support Arundhati Roy and say all pakistanis should leave india for good. And abrogate article 370 because we fulfilled the genuine interests of those pakistanis...

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 20 Aug 2008 23:23

Popular media today is vouching for kashmiri independence.
What was the reaction is late 80's and early 90's when terrorism hit the valley and prior to that? Is this 'free kashmir' talk a new phenomenon? What were the same people saying before the Amarnath issue broke out?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby ramdas » 21 Aug 2008 00:08

These articles supporting kashmiri "azaadi" show what a mess we have landed in as a society. So, right to treason is the "life blood" of the "idea of India" according to these liberals. Whether peaceful or not, any secessionist demand should be crushed with all the force that the state can summon. If a tiananmen square needs to be done on the secessionist, so be it.

These rootless liberals have no sense of national honor - they too need to be targeted by POTA like laws for supporting splittism and secession. Enough of these ideas of allowing dissent and other such nonsense. Strong nations are never built by letting every type of antinational dissident freely spread his/her views. A regimented nationalist system that uses force to crush all anti-national activity is the need of the hour. Moral values and other related nonsense be damned.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 21 Aug 2008 00:37


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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby fanne » 21 Aug 2008 00:54

I think in old times, there were three differences, as compared to the new time
1. The world was not unipolar, but bipolar, so these traitors existed, but were kind of balanced out with the two sides. Now most of them have sold them to one side only and have a sense that the present super power will help them in case the state gets tough with them (in the name of freedom of press or human rights or ....take your pick)
2. The Center was patriotic (whether strong or not). For all her faults, Indira, she was patriotic; same can be said of the humble farmer or one IK Gujral. Even VP Singh for his fault was never considered a western mole. The current leadership (for the first time since independence) does not inspire that confidence. I would not be surprised if this is being done at their behest, after all, all the 'intellectuals' have been getting lifafas from the ruling party as reflected in their opinion columns.
3. The current power has suddenly gotten to hyper drive (is it a bargaining chip to further Castrate India on the newclear option?) through its 'paid agents' and the paid agents due to the above two reasons, do not even care about pretending where their loyalties lie. The synchronization of all these paid agents cannot be coincidental. They also IMHO overestimate their power to mould public opinion.

I believe that is what is the reason of the current perfidy of the fifth column oops I meant the fourth estate.
I do not believe either Sonia ji or Honorable Shri ManMohan Singh ji (Phd. in Economics) (I have been warned at that the forum will not tolerate anything less on our great PM!!) are invested in the idea of India that is Bharat. There value system has more things in common with either Oxford or Italy than Bharat. That value system demands that we be cut to size and so the paid agents (also called editors in some new papers) and the viceroys of 21st Century India are doing exactly that.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby fanne » 21 Aug 2008 01:10

As far as polls on IBM showing 56% Indians favor JK separation, well well, isn't this the same IBN that lies, doctors video and hide facts. Wasn't this the one that has been doing pre poll surveys which have only one thing in common, what happened in reality was exactly the opposite of what the channel had predicted. Sorry Sourdesai, even Musharaff has more credibility than you have, he was at least 400% correct, you have been ....
Get a life, if you want to earn money, become someone like one of us, work for that living. Inventing stats and surveys and passing them off on TV is a fantasy trip, that I use to take when I was a kid, I would pretend that that there was a poll in the world and every one loved me and I was the greatest person. Gow up!!
rgds,
fanne

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rishirishi » 21 Aug 2008 02:29

fanne wrote:As far as polls on IBM showing 56% Indians favor JK separation, well well, isn't this the same IBN that lies, doctors video and hide facts. Wasn't this the one that has been doing pre poll surveys which have only one thing in common, what happened in reality was exactly the opposite of what the channel had predicted. Sorry Sourdesai, even Musharaff has more credibility than you have, he was at least 400% correct, you have been ....
Get a life, if you want to earn money, become someone like one of us, work for that living. Inventing stats and surveys and passing them off on TV is a fantasy trip, that I use to take when I was a kid, I would pretend that that there was a poll in the world and every one loved me and I was the greatest person. Gow up!!
rgds,
fanne


There is something weired going on. Is someone manuplation the media? Quite a few news articles lately has taken up the issue of "giving up" Kashmir.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Rahul M » 21 Aug 2008 02:30

kite flying going on to gauge public reaction.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby archan » 21 Aug 2008 02:38

Rahul M wrote:kite flying going on to gauge public reaction.

And...has there been any public reaction in desh? Have any articles countering those come up stating -
- the strategic importance of the region to the state of India
- the paki machinations of the past decades that have fueled the insurgency
- the state of Kashmiri Pandits, ramifications on other national/international issues such as similar demands from other groups for 'freedom'
- examples of how successful states like the US were formed only after wishes of separatists were crushed following a huge bloodbath...?
- other points I might be missing?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Prem » 21 Aug 2008 02:40

Rishirishi,
Jammuites have made Psec/traitors/pinko/ yellow livered go for the gold medal in the game of undermining India . Their outburst works well for nationalistic forces. Elephant wont die just because vultures wish to feed on it. But we still need to know their Massa who make these Mitti ke Putle dance. Their Massa is the real enemy not these pawns.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 21 Aug 2008 02:42

archan wrote:
Rahul M wrote:kite flying going on to gauge public reaction.

And...has there been any public reaction in desh? Have any articles countering those come up stating -
- the strategic importance of the region to the state of India
- the paki machinations of the past decades that have fueled the insurgency
- the state of Kashmiri Pandits, ramifications on other national/international issues such as similar demands from other groups for 'freedom'
- examples of how successful states like the US were formed only after wishes of separatists were crushed following a huge bloodbath...?
- other points I might be missing?


Congress has asked arundati roy to shut up, but have not said anything about these opinion pieces in print media.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 21 Aug 2008 02:43

Prem wrote:Rishirishi,
Their Massa is the real enemy not these pawns.

Any guesses who the massa could be?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby archan » 21 Aug 2008 02:49

Bharati wrote:Congress has asked arundati roy to shut up, but have not said anything about these opinion pieces in print media.

Do we have any link for that 'reprimand' ?

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby raji » 21 Aug 2008 02:50

fanne wrote:I think in old times, there were three differences, as compared to the new time
1. The world was not unipolar, but bipolar, so these traitors existed, but were kind of balanced out with the two sides. Now most of them have sold them to one side only and have a sense that the present super power will help them in case the state gets tough with them (in the name of freedom of press or human rights or ....take your pick)
2. The Center was patriotic (whether strong or not). For all her faults, Indira, she was patriotic; same can be said of the humble farmer or one IK Gujral. Even VP Singh for his fault was never considered a western mole. The current leadership (for the first time since independence) does not inspire that confidence. I would not be surprised if this is being done at their behest, after all, all the 'intellectuals' have been getting lifafas from the ruling party as reflected in their opinion columns.
3. The current power has suddenly gotten to hyper drive (is it a bargaining chip to further Castrate India on the newclear option?) through its 'paid agents' and the paid agents due to the above two reasons, do not even care about pretending where their loyalties lie. The synchronization of all these paid agents cannot be coincidental. They also IMHO overestimate their power to mould public opinion.

I believe that is what is the reason of the current perfidy of the fifth column oops I meant the fourth estate.
I do not believe either Sonia ji or Honorable Shri ManMohan Singh ji (Phd. in Economics) (I have been warned at that the forum will not tolerate anything less on our great PM!!) are invested in the idea of India that is Bharat. There value system has more things in common with either Oxford or Italy than Bharat. That value system demands that we be cut to size and so the paid agents (also called editors in some new papers) and the viceroys of 21st Century India are doing exactly that.


Let us not blame the west for our own inaction. Our people have become corrupt and pick leaders who are in it for themselves. How many in our general population would favor going to war over Kashmir over making money. Going to war will disrupt the economy in a way that everyone will have to make financial sacrifices. Do you think our general population, including the rich and the newly opportunity empowered middle class will go for it.

I spend a lot of time in Washington and I know a few influential journalists and people on Capitol Hill. They all mistake our cowardice and inaction due to narrow short term self interest on Kashmir, as Gandhian tolerance and privately marvel what will tip it over for us to react. I get the sense that todays Washington is not what it was 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. People in Washington, including some in influential circles, are seething at Pakistan and waiting for someone to teach em a lesson and I think if it is preceded with proper diplomacy to that end, the US Govt would be very happy to look the other way or even facilitate a chinese style "teaching a lesson" to Pak.....by India(US would come in restraining a Pak nuclear response and then facilitate a totally one sided agreement in favor of India, kinda a surrender on the part of Pak, with some minor face saving, after a quick and punitive police action...........the agreement would be for Pak to stop even looking the KAshmir way)..........This is my reading of Washington today.....

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Prem » 21 Aug 2008 03:03

Lesson in Wiesel Words

Farooq Abdullah rules out separation from India
http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/21/stories ... 211200.htm

u: National Conference patron Farooq Abdullah on Wednesday opposed independence for Jammu and Kashmir, saying that the State’s future was with India and there should be no doubt about this fact.

At a press conference here, he said: “We are proud citizens of the State of Jammu and Kashmir. This is our collective and pluralistic identity. We have a common destiny and a common future. Every citizen living in this State has an equal right…”


Dr. Abdullah said: “Let us be realistic. Independence is not possible for our State. We need to be allied to a bigger country. People who espouse the cause of independence should understand the ground realities. It is not about survival as a destroyed State, but survival as a State which is viable, where people can exist happily. Under the present circumstances, freedom is not easy to sustain.”

It was his government that decided to form the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board for better management of the shrine, he said
Last edited by Prem on 21 Aug 2008 03:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 21 Aug 2008 03:07

US seeks to be the sole superpower and backs countries who submit themselves unconditionally. For south Asia, the chosen one is Pak. If they could have it, they would prefer China or India but since neither of these showed willingness to become meek servants, they graced pak which is in the immediate neighbourhood.
I don't think US would end its romance with Hurriyats any time soon. IMHO it would be naive to believe US would be glad if India shows pakis their place.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Bharati » 21 Aug 2008 03:11

Prem wrote:Lesson on Wiesel Words
Farooq Abdullah rules out separation from India
http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/21/stories ... 211200.htm


How come he doesn't say these things at rallys in the valley? Doublespeak as usual.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby svinayak » 21 Aug 2008 03:31

raji wrote: People in Washington, including some in influential circles, are seething at Pakistan and waiting for someone to teach em a lesson and I think if it is preceded with proper diplomacy to that end, the US Govt would be very happy to look the other way or even facilitate a chinese style "teaching a lesson" to Pak.....by India(US would come in restraining a Pak nuclear response and then facilitate a totally one sided agreement in favor of India, kinda a surrender on the part of Pak, with some minor face saving, after a quick and punitive police action...........the agreement would be for Pak to stop even looking the KAshmir way)..........This is my reading of Washington today.....

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 21 Aug 2008 03:37

archan wrote:
Bharati wrote:Congress has asked arundati roy to shut up, but have not said anything about these opinion pieces in print media.

Do we have any link for that 'reprimand' ?



Congress attacks Arundhati Roy over Kashmir remark
the Congress said today. "She (Roy) is a loose cannon who has abused liberal traditions of India to its fullest," said Congress spokesperson Manish Tiwari.

"It is a great tribute to the tolerance of India's ethos that a person who openly calls for Balkanisation of country is not being locked up and the keys are not being thrown away," Tiwari said.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby archan » 21 Aug 2008 04:19

Nice job Tiwari ji. Sadho!

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby RamaY » 21 Aug 2008 04:24

archan wrote:
Rahul M wrote:kite flying going on to gauge public reaction.

And...has there been any public reaction in desh? Have any articles countering those come up stating -


I don’t know about other states... there have been quite a few articles by the so-called human-rights activists in Telugu (Andhra Pradesh) newspapers talking about the innocence and genuine grievance and peaceful protests by the valley guys. But I see few columnists responding to these false propaganda and giving nationalistic points of view supporting Jammu protests...

1st Rank - I really hope one fine day this Kuldeep Nayyar (WKK) guy joins AIIMS…. I have been reading his WKK articles for the past 20 yrs… the editorial section is completely dedicated to Andhra politics. But we see the opposing point of view in its columns section.

2nd Rank - Today I saw point-by-point refutation article in the editorial section of Andhra Jyothy as an answer to an article by a human-rights activist K Balagopalan... some response at last... But this news paper is left-wing in its editorials

3rd Rank - Andhrabhoomi is more of right-wing type news paper. It has well written editorials and articles on current national interests. Also has an excellent serial on the great mahatma Gandhi exposing his single handed and anti-national decisions during the freedom struggle.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby bhavin » 21 Aug 2008 05:08

Acharya wrote:
raji wrote: People in Washington, including some in influential circles, are seething at Pakistan and waiting for someone to teach em a lesson and I think if it is preceded with proper diplomacy to that end, the US Govt would be very happy to look the other way or even facilitate a chinese style "teaching a lesson" to Pak.....by India(US would come in restraining a Pak nuclear response and then facilitate a totally one sided agreement in favor of India, kinda a surrender on the part of Pak, with some minor face saving, after a quick and punitive police action...........the agreement would be for Pak to stop even looking the KAshmir way)..........This is my reading of Washington today.....


I would think that the current situation in Georgia should teach us not to 'read' anything in to what Washington states. If they wanted to do something about it, they would have already done it. Our calculations should not rely on their ambiguous statements. Talk is cheap - It is the action that counts.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby raji » 21 Aug 2008 05:38

bhavin wrote:
Acharya wrote:
raji wrote: People in Washington, including some in influential circles, are seething at Pakistan and waiting for someone to teach em a lesson and I think if it is preceded with proper diplomacy to that end, the US Govt would be very happy to look the other way or even facilitate a chinese style "teaching a lesson" to Pak.....by India(US would come in restraining a Pak nuclear response and then facilitate a totally one sided agreement in favor of India, kinda a surrender on the part of Pak, with some minor face saving, after a quick and punitive police action...........the agreement would be for Pak to stop even looking the KAshmir way)..........This is my reading of Washington today.....


I would think that the current situation in Georgia should teach us not to 'read' anything in to what Washington states. If they wanted to do something about it, they would have already done it. Our calculations should not rely on their ambiguous statements. Talk is cheap - It is the action that counts.




Americans didnt assure Georgians of support and then did an about face and supported Russia, did they. All we want is American neutrality, any assistance from them is gravy......we oughta be able to solve our own problems.....we just want others (Uncle) not to meddle in PAk's favor...........which they will not......at this juncture..........thats just my sense talkin to people here in Washington...........
Last edited by Jagan on 21 Aug 2008 07:58, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: EDITED - removed personal attack - debate the points not the poster

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby vsunder » 21 Aug 2008 05:44

I dont know much about all this, but this song applies to our braves too
listen to the words and quit calling others names, peace man, peace man.

An old song

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Airavat » 21 Aug 2008 06:21

Daily Excelsior

There was no police station left in majority parts of Jammu region where thousands of people didn’t turn up including women, teen-aged girls and boys and children to offer themselves for arrest in more and more numbers. While Intelligence agencies put the number of people turning out for court arrests at nearly one lakh, reliable inputs said the number was over three lakh despite imposition of day curfew in most parts of Jammu district and deployment of Army this morning.

Most of the children, who turned up for the court arrests, were wearing ‘kesari pagris’ and had put ‘tilaks’ on their foreheads. They too were heard shouting ‘Bum Bum Bhole’ and ‘NN Vohra Hai Hai’. In some of the police stations, they scaled walls and entered inside the police stations as the cops had decided not to arrest them. Some of them were dressed as Veer Hanuman, Lord Shiva and were wearing monkey caps to depict themselves as army of Hanuman. Unfazed by the fear of police, the children danced to the tunes of dhols and freely offered themselves for arrests though they were officially not detained. Such were the sentiments of the people that some of the children were brought for court arrests by their parents with nipples and milk bottles in their mouths. Even handicapped children joined the court arrest programme. A girl Sanayali Sharma daughter of Subash Sharma R/o MH Chowk, who was without legs, led the children’s march in Kathua.

Image

According to a rough estimate, more than three lakh people including men, women, youths and children took to the streets chanting ‘Hum Sab Bache Kahaan Chale, Chote Bache Kahaan Chale, Yeh Baal Gopal Kahaan Chale, Yeh Deewane Kahaan Chale, Jail Chale Bhai Jail Chale’, ‘Bum Bum Bhole’, ‘Sooli Khud Ko Taang Rahe Hain, Apna Haq Maang Rahe Hain’, ‘NN Vohra, Omar Abdullah and Mehbooba Mufti Hai Hai’.

Sensing the people’s mood, two former Congress MLAs including Raman Bhalla and Sham Sharma also offered themselves for court arrest notwithstanding a statement of Congress national spokesman that Hurriyat Conference and Sangarsh Samiti were two faces of the same coin.

A number of Sikhs, Muslims including Gujjars, Christians and other minorities also joined the agitation, which has now taken the shape of a mass movement, and offered themselves for the court arrests. More response was today seen to the ‘jail bharo andolan’ in rural and far off areas like Domana, Ghrota, Khour, RS Pura, Bishnah, Billawar, Bhaderwah, Bari Brahamana, Vijaypur, Ramgarh, Hiranagar, Sunderbani and Reasi where people ranging between 6000 to 15000 including a number of children turned up for the arrests.

Image

Shilpi Verma, widow of Kuldeep Dogra, who had ended his life at Parade Chowk in support of the movement, also offered herself for the court arrest along with her child in Bishnah.

In Akhnoor town, Congress leader and former MLA Sham Sharma along with his supporters and party workers‘ gathered at Nirdosh Chowk this morning for the first time since launch of the agitation and shouting ‘Bharat Mata Ki Jai’ marched towards Government higher secondary school where they offered themselves for court arrest demanding restoration of land to the SASB. However, the Sangarsh Samiti, which had been leading the agitation for last 52 days, objected to Mr Sharma’s move saying he should first dissociate from the Congress, whose Central and State leadership has been opposing the agitation, before courting arrest.

In Medical College, all junior doctors and para-medical staff went on a flash strike after Dr Vaneet Gupta, an Ortho Registrar was confined to Janipura police station and beaten-up by a police officer and cops as the latter refused to treat his identity card as curfew pass. SSP Jammu S D Singh visited the GMC along with two cops for identification of the accused. But, the doctors said the real culprits were deliberately not produced before them by the police. Some staff of the GMC Jammu also beat-up a police and a CRPF constable who had been brought for the identification parade. :rotfl:

Image

Women held ‘kirtans’ inside singing ‘bhajans’ in praise of Lord Shiva and Durga Mata before dispersing as police had no conveyance even to shift them to the temporary jails. In some police stations, the protesters were offered bread and ice water while in most of the police stations they had nothing to consume. At Bahu Fort police station, former MLA and Congress leader Raman Bhalla also offered himself for court arrest.

A Gujjar leader Fazal Din declared that entire Kashmir was the property of Maharaja Gulab Singh and Dr Karan Singh and his son Ajatshatru Singh should act to restore the land to SASB.

In Bhaderwah town of Doda district, where people had not offered court arrests for the last two days due to ‘Machail Yatra’, more than 5000 people, many of them women and children, turned up for court arrests and were kept in the higher secondary school before being released. At Gandoh, 1500 people came out for the arrests while in Prem Nagar and Doda town, over 500 protesters came for the arrests. All of them were released in the evening.

In remote Paddar area of Kishtwar, over 1500 people including women offered court arrests. In Kishtwar town, the minorities continued silent dharna so that the ‘Machail Yatra’ was not disturbed.

Baglihar to start power generation from Nov

With the concerned authorities conducting series of tests from next month, the prestigious 450 Mega Watt (MW) Baglihar Hydro Electric Project (BHEP) on River Chenab at Chanderkote in Ramban district will start generation of electricity from November this year. It is worthwhile to mention here that the Project faced so many hurdles even since work was started on the same and the major hurdle was being created by Pakistan over its height. However, finally the things got settled in favour of India and now the project is all set to start generation of electricity.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby vsudhir » 21 Aug 2008 06:24

Dunno if posted already but CNN-IBN poll results claim that "56% of Indians want Kashmir to be 'freed' from India".

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Neshant » 21 Aug 2008 06:31

It was mentioned by the BJP some years back in parliment no less that the US wants Kashmir as a launching point into China. Hence the CNN propaganda.
Last edited by Neshant on 21 Aug 2008 06:32, edited 1 time in total.

archan
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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby archan » 21 Aug 2008 06:32

vsunder wrote:I dont know much about all this, but this song applies to our braves too
listen to the words and quit calling others names, peace man, peace man.

An old song

So you don't know much, but enough to throw out an advice? nice job. Peace cannot be from one side. It takes both hands to clap.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 21 Aug 2008 06:32

Colours of patriotism paint Jammu
Kumar Uttam | Jammu

Tricolour in hand, protesters shout 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai'

The sun is about to set on the city and the roundabout is deserted. A youth suddenly emerges from one of the bylanes, carrying a National Flag in his hand and shouting slogans of "Bharat Mata Ki Jai". Soon, the solitary protest at Kacchi Chhawani Chowk in 'paralaysed' Jammu turns into a mass frenzy as hundreds join him to express solidarity for a cause that has gone far beyond the Amarnath land row.

In fact, the Tricolour has united people in this winter capital of Jammu and Kashmir to fight the "neglect" they faced in the last 60 years. The controversy over allotment of a land plot to Shri Amarnath Shrine Board was a mere flashpoint. "We raised the Tricolour and were greeted with bullets. They (separatists) in Kashmir hoisted Pakistan's flag and brought the Government to its knees. It will not be allowed to continue any more," thunders Subhash Dogra, a protester.

Everyone in Jammu has suddenly turned leader, brushing aside allegations that "communal elements" are controlling the movement. "We are leaders in ourselves. Nobody is leading us. We are ready to face problems today to ensure a better future for the generations," adds Gurpreet Singh, owner of a few taxis. Though he has been getting no business for 50 days, he is ready to bear the losses for "many more months" but not the humiliation at the hands of the Government.

Everyone in Jammu has just one complaint. "Kashmir wants freedom, we love our country. They got everything, we were left empty-handed," people living in the Mishriwalla refugee camp on the Jammu-Akhnoor highway say.

A senior employee in the Divisional Commissioner's office revealed more. "You don't get promotions on time if you are not from the valley. Jammu has more population and area, but Kashmir gets better representation in all Government bodies and organisations. Jammu contributes the most to the State's exchequer, but Kashmir reaps the benefits. Electricity dues are more in Kashmir, but Jammu faces power cuts," he told The Pioneer.

The Amarnath controversy has come in handy for all those who nurse the "wound of neglect". They are in no double minds -- the Government revoked the allotment of the land to the shrine board for a Hindu yatra under pressure from the same separatists whom they have been appeasing since Independence.

"We have to restore the pride of Baba Amarnath and that of Jammu. We are not going to be defeated at the hands of the anti-nationals. We will be on the roads until the target is achieved," says 80-year-old Anil Sharma, as he and his grandson Ankit raise slogan of 'Bam Bam Bhole' outside Sarwal police post in Rewari locality.

Police have lost public sympathy (they allegedly fired at peaceful protesters and manhandled many) and the Army faces a situation it never confronted before. "How can you expect us to fire at them or even wield a lathi when they come with a Tricolour in their hands and shout slogans in favour of us?" says an Armyman posted in the most sensitive Kacchi Chhawani Chowk of Jammu.

Jammu has been simmering for the last 60 years. It for the first time they have been heard.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Neshant » 21 Aug 2008 06:36

The govt must have no shame if its hiding away in face of these protests.

One has yet to see them do anyting besides hold meeetings - which really is just an excuse to do nothing hoping things will fizzle out.

Perhaps the protestors might get a better response from the govt if they started blowing things up. Being patriotic will get you nothing in India. Being an anti-national scoundrel will get you VIP treatment as many separatist leaders have found out.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 21 Aug 2008 06:39

Jammu on boil again: 1 killed, many hurt
Nine-year-old Sahil truly epitomises the spirit of the Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti activists determined to take their 51-day long agitation over the Amarnath land transfer to its logical end.

On Wednesday morning, Sahil asked his father, Ram Lal, to paint his face with colours of national flag before settling down on his wheel chair. His mother garlanded him with marigold as he moved out of his house in Rehari chanting 'Bharat Mata ki jai' and 'Bum Bum Bhole'.

Sahil was one among several thousands children who defied curfew restrictions in Jammu to participate in the 'jail bharo' agitation. The district administration did not relax curfew in Jammu on Wednesday yet there was no trace of administration. Streets swelled with large number of agitators everywhere across Jammu and supporters of Sangharsh Samiti rallied against the Governor and demanded his ouster.

Majority of police stations across Jammu were full of spirited school-going children and even toddlers at many places. They were driven to the police stations by their young siblings in prams pasted with banners, 'hum kisi se kum nahin' and 'hum se na takrana'. The children recited nationalist slogans and chanted 'Bum Bum Bhole' while offering to court arrest. The policemen, however, found itself in a tight spot over the arrest of juveniles.

A police post in Peermitha area in old Jammu city hogged all the limelight as a large number of kinnars (eunuch) also courted arrest and extended their support to the ongoing agitation. They warned the Centre that if the Amarnath land issue was not resolved immediately, kinnars from all over the country would take part in the ongoing agitation in Jammu.

Meanwhile,One 18-year-old youth died when a tractor trolley in which they were travelling to court arrest turned turtle near Bisnah, 22 kms from Jammu. Two other seriously injured activists of the Sangharsh Samiti were rushed to the Government medical college from Akhnoor and at least 60 others were injured including 25 policemen in day-long incidents of clashes between protesters and paramilitary forces.

Several vehicles including Toyota Qualis parked inside the house of BJP general secretary (organisation) Ajay Jamwal, official vehicle of the directorate of statistics and economics, one Alto car, one tanker, one SRTC bus, old vehicles parked inside Janipur police station were torched by the protesters.

Besides, one ATM counter of the J&K Bank was also burnt by agitators in Janipur area. Two other banks including SBI Janipur and Citizens Cooperative Bank were attacked and window panes were smashed during incidents of stone-pelting. Police tents pitched over Sarwal police post also caught fire when a large number of protesters reached there to court arrest.

In Akhnoor more than one dozen activists of the Sangharsh Samiti and supporters of the Congress were injured after incidents of stone-pelting. Eight protesters were also arrested by the police from different areas for damaging public property. Army was called in and it conducted flag marches in sensitive areas to restore order. Rapid Action Force and paramilitary forces faced the brunt of the agitators during day-long battles at several places in Jammu.

Junior doctors in Jammu medical college went on lightening strike after one of their colleagues Vineet Gupta was manhandled by police despite proving his identity outside the medical college.

Spokesman of the Sangharsh Samiti Narinder Singh claimed that more than 4 lakh people including their family members offered themselves for arrests in the entire Jammu region.

Several eminent poets and writers offered to court arrest in the Pacca Danga police station while a contingent of veteran leaders of 1953 Praja Parishad Movement led by the hero of that movement Om Prakash ji Mengi offered court arrest in the city police station.

Meanwhile, buoyed over the success of the three-day long 'jail bharo' agitation, the Sangharsh Samiti has called upon the people of the Jammu for civil disobedience with the State Government and not to pay VAT, token tax, electricity and water dues, passenger tax with immediate effect. The Sangharsh Samiti has also given a call for taking out a funeral procession of the Central Government against its "criminal silence" over the incidents of violence against the various sections of Hindus in Kashmir comprising students, transporters, labourers and even judges; burning of national flag by the secessionists on August 21.

The Sangharsh Samiti has called upon the people of the Jammu region to participate in full strength along with entire family in the Yatra on August 23 and had also given a call for complete bandh and chakka jam on the August 25. The situation was no different in other adjoining districts in the Jammu region.

State BJP chief Ashok Khajuria warned Governor NN Vohra not to adopt repressive measures to crush the ongoing mass movement of people in Jammu province. Raising the pitch of his voice, Khajuria demanded dismissal of the Governor in order to restore peoples' faith. A large number of activists and supporters of the Sangharsh Samiti in Reasi, Udhampur, Ramgarh, Samba and Kathua courted arrest.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 21 Aug 2008 06:54


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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Gerard » 21 Aug 2008 07:03


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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby Prem » 21 Aug 2008 07:13

Is it possible that
Non Muslims of J&K can legaly adopt as many people they want and these adopted people can buy as much land they
feel necerssary in the valley and settle down with their extended "families" who can provide good security to them from Islamic terrorists . This way India do not need to go through the politics of Article 360 as well the wailing pinkos and PSecs.

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby sum » 21 Aug 2008 09:11

Praveen Swami batting for islamic university?
Islamic university falls victim to Kashmir’s shrine war

Praveen Swami

Was Governor S.K. Sinha a Hindu communalist? Jammu and Kashmir’s powerful Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadith order does not think so.

Shaukat Ahmad Shah is scheduled to speak at Sringar’s Idgah on Friday. His words will guide the actions of tens of thousand of protesters who believe their faith is being besieged by a predatory Hindu India.

Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadis president Shah, who heads Kashmir’s most influential neoconservative order, has been a central figure in the ongoing Shrine Board protests — protests ignited by Islamist claims that the former Governor, S.K. Sinha, and the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board were engaged in a secret war to alter the State’s demography.
Twist of fate

But in an apparently-inexplicable twist of fate, Mr. Shah is also one of Gen. Sinha’s few supporters in Kashmir. “People say Gen. Sinha was a Hindu fanatic”, he says, “but that is not my experience of him. He was sometimes ill advised, but he was not a communalist”. Odd? Mr. Shah’s dream, an ambitious Islamic university to rival the best in the world, was made possible by Gen. Sinha — and swept away by the same agitation which brought down the Congress-PDP alliance government.

Jamiat leaders first started pushing the Transworld Islamic University over two decades ago, responding to calls from their constituency for a modern Islamic university. Internal turmoil meant nothing came of the idea until 2002, when Mr. Shah and other Jamiat leaders revived the project.

Chief Minister Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, who was then engaged in setting up an Auqaf-funded Islamic University at Awantipora opposed the Jamiat’s plans. Like the National Conference before him, Mr. Sayeed hoped to use the Auqaf Trust’s massive financial assets as a means with which to bolster his political legitimacy. The Jamiat’s plans constituted competition — and Mr. Sayeed saw no reason to countenance it.

In 2006, though, Gen. Sinha announced controversial plans to set up the Sharada Vidyapeeth, a Hindu denominational university funded by the Mata Vaishno Devi Shrine Board. Islamist hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani initiated a campaign against the Sharda Vidyapeeth, which he cast as part of a larger Indian project to subvert the integrity of Islam in the State.

But Jamiat officials saw opportunity in the situation. If a Hindu denominational university could receive State support, they told Gen. Sinha, there was no reason to oppose the setting up of the TMU.

Jamiat officials pointed out that the PDP-led government had handed over land to several Hindu charitable trusts. For example, in May 2005, the Jammu Development Authority had leased 283 kanals of land to the Shree Yog Vedant Sewa Samiti. According to a January, 2006, letter issued by the JDA, Mr. Sayeed had supported the decision on the grounds Samiti chief Bapu Asa Ram was “a renowned saint of national repute.”

Faced with the facts — which, parenthetically, make the PDP’s decision to oppose the temporary use of land by the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board somewhat mystifying — Governor Sinha threw his weight behind the Jamiat. He also won the support of Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad, who saw in the Jamiat an instrument with which to challenge Mr. Sayeed’s claims to speak for Kashmiri Muslims and Islam. In February, 2008, the State government leased 100 kanals of land to the Jamiat for its university.

Fate, however, intervened. Even as the Jamiat received its land, a private members bill was moved in the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly, to give the TMU legal sanction. However, both Mr. Azad and Deputy Chief Minister Muzaffar Beig insisted that the Congress-PDP alliance would together move the bill. In May, 2008, both politicians initialled their determination to do so on a letter to the Jamiat. But the government fell before action could be taken — and the TMU project is now stalled.
Faith and learning

Followers of Sayyid Ahmad Khan of Rai Bareilly, who died at Balkote while waging an unsuccessful jihad against Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s kingdom, founded the order in the nineteenth century.

Khan’s followers rejected the accommodation Islam in India had made with its environment. They also called on Muslims to reject the four major schools of Islamic jurisprudence, and instead model themselves on the companions of the Prophet.

Sayyed Hussain Shah Batku, a Delhi seminary student who carried the Ahl-e-Hadith message to Kashmir in 1925, received a hostile response. However, the Jamiat later grew into a significant force, drawing the emerging middle class of Muslim businessmen and government employees to its ranks.

Historian Chitralekha Zutshi has noted that the “influence of the Ahl-e-Hadith on the conflicts over Kashmiri identities cannot be overemphasised”. It is now, arguably, Jammu and Kashmir’s largest religious order, which claims control of 1.5 million followers, 600 mosques and 120 schools.

In Pakistan, the Jamiat spawned the Markaz Dawa wal’Irshad — a powerful Islamist movement in turn gave birth to the Lashkar-e-Taiba. But in Jammu and Kashmir, the dominant faction of the Jamiat proved resistant to the terrorist group’s cause. In 1997, terrorists assassinated the Jamiat’s president, Mohammad Ramzan, for failing to push the Lashkar project. A decade later, Shah and Bhat were almost assassinated.

Some fear that, despite the Jamiat’s current leadership, the TMU will be hijacked by the Lashkar, and turned into a version of Pakistan’s al-Dawa University: an educational empire which has put learning at the service of the Lashkar.

Mushtaq Siddiqi, an eminent microbiologist who heads the Sher-i-Kashmir Institute of Medical Sciences’ Advanced Centre for Genetic Diseases and will be vice-chancellor of TMU, is at pains to still the fears. “I’m not a member of the Jamiat,” says the eminent microbiologist. “and believe in traditional Kashmiri practices like worshipping at shrines.”

Mr. Siddiqi has ambitious plans for TMU, which he hopes will evolve along the lines of major denominational universities in the United States of America. “Ethics and social concern are at the core of our vision,” he says, “but the university will not be in the business of selling a particular sectarian vision.” Islam, Mr. Siddiqi says, will form an important part of TMU’s curriculum, but insists its School of Sharia will not be a traditionalist seminary. “Our students will emerge not just with a sound grasp of Islamic theology,” he says, “but also of comparative religion and ethics.”

“Rather than become a factory turning out graduates who end up being a burden on the State,” he says, “we want to produce self-reliant entrepreneurs.” For example, TWMU’s School of Farm Technology will offer job-oriented diplomas in leather production, generating revenue from sheepskin which is now shipped out of the State.

“We hope Governor N.N. Vohra will fulfil the promises made to us,” says Jamiat secretary-general Abdul Rehman Bhat, “because the future of tens of thousands of young people is at stake.”

Im confused after reading this article....what is the purpose/ theme of this article? That the Islamic university has to be opened or is it some equal equal piece??

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Re: J & K news and discussion - 19 Aug 2008

Postby negi » 21 Aug 2008 09:45

Everyone is aware of the J&K situation and , we all agree that more than the separatists it is again GOI's myopic policies and ever lasting guilty conscience (I am yet to find the reason for that) which has caused this ruckus.

Yes on a long term basis the article 370 and all other policies which distinguish J&K from other states should be revoked, however at this juncture the public sentiments need to be subdued .The only way to restore status quo and bring back normalcy is by agreeing to the samiti's demands and dole out immediate monetary package to the people in valley ( I know I will be stoned for saying that here but what imo we are left with no choice but to make everyone happy at the moment) all in all make every one in the state happy , I am sure like everyone else even Kashmiris will become too occupied with their daily chores to pay attention to likes of Geelani and JKLF.

Also GOI should enforce laws to control the print and electronic media on immediate basis to prevent the sensationalization of the issue, and given the inherent bias with which TOI and Hindu are covering the story its causing even more dammage (bhai log just read the comments section of J&K related articles in TOI ).

I am afraid if the situation remains volatile for too long , we would see the direct implications on the assembly elections with MUFTI and Co returning to power which will only deepen the rift between Kashmir and rest of India.


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