J & K news and discussion

vdas · Post by **vdas** » 21 Aug 2008 10:58

Well sometimes I belive we INDIANS are to be blamed for the problems we are in. We give a lot of importance to people who have been favoured by west. These people ( arundhati roy ) and likes of her believe that they have the right to do moral judgement based on their own ethinicity over issues that does not even concern them. If she thinks what she be-lie-ves is true and she can be the new age mahatama then she has misunderstood us INDIANS wrong. We as a group might fight and scream but NOBODY..TRUST ME ..NOBODY comments on the way we run our HOMES.

Staying in US wearing jeans and french perfumes and talking in american english moving in AC cars and getting invited to high profile social dinners and writting some essays on poverty they think to champion every aspects of our lives. Such people should be thrown out ( they will even take milage out of that also ) . The best way is not to promote them ( stop buying their books ). They become nobodies and the WORLD will forget them.

We as a nation have been victimized by ourselves and our liberal thoughts. ( too much of everything is bad ) . Some film makers have showed india as a poor nations of BHOOKHA-NANGA.. they have been hailed in west...these people amused the west and when they got critical acclaim we went over board in accepting their genius. It is very easy to write stories about poverty ....... some thing like " He was a boy with no name and no future ... getting abused was as natural as dates in calendar " ... such stories moves the west and us(indians)....DO THEY KNOW WHAT POVERTY IS ? Will they sacrifice their book money to improvise the life of one child/orphan.

Arundhati roy ..and her likes are like parasites who live in the security this country provides them and then questions them in the manner in which it is provided.

Kashmir was a part of INDIA and will remain a part .... period

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 21 Aug 2008 12:20

Gerard wrote:Jammu on boil again: 1 killed, many hurt

Well...its about time something like this took place. Assholes like Geelani need to be silently erased from J&K or need to be made to shut their trap and moved over to puki land. Some of the hindu parties should try doing similar things in srinagar as what is being done in Jammu. Ideally, a lota hindu kashmiris should move back to srinagar and surrounding areas. EDITED.
had very nicely made them move south and now call themselves true kashmiris. Well...its interesting...because its not only the kashmiri people who have stake in J&K but its also the people from rest of india.

The government is very soft in handling them and is truely worthy of blame for its in-action and for allowing non-sense like this to continue for so long a time. The best solution to the J&K problem is not the land itself, its the people. Those who prefer puki land should go back there and those who think we are a little sensible (as muslims are not only in kashmir but in other parts of our country) should stick by us and reap in advantages of a far better life than in puki land....where there is nothing but puk all over the place.

Muns · Post by **Muns** » 21 Aug 2008 17:34

Kashmir is my birth right, and I shall have it!

Kashmiri Pandits who remain just tagged with the word Kashmir, are living with just the memories of the Valley. Today it's just Kashmir, tomorrow it can be any other state where the majority might push out the minorities..

So what do the Kashmiri Pandits want? One finds an obvious reply from him - "We want a dignified and secure return to our homes. We want to be able to lead a dignified and secure life in our Valley. We want to be able to hoist our national tri-color without having to get security cover to do so. We want to be able to observe our religious and cultural practices without any fear." Nothing extravagant in that. After all that’s what any citizen of India commands and that’s what is denied to him.
When asked how he feels as a Kashmiri Hindu on the present day, Razdan emotionally said, "I feel like I don’t belong to anywhere. I am not a ’local ’ of any place. I yearn to go back to the places where I belong to, where I spent my childhood, where all my ancestors lived, where all my religious places of worship are. I feel cheated and lonely. My country folks do not know my issues. My own country mates do not stand up with me for my rights!" Does anyone have an answer to his concern? Do we really care about the pain of our fellow countrymen? It’s just like lending a helping hand towards your neighbour. Let’s do it.

It’s not just a story of one Razdan. There are lakhs of Kashmiri Pandits who remain just tagged with the word Kashmir, living with just the memories of the Valley. Whether it’s a political issue or a religious divide, one has to feel the agony of the suffering. Today it’s just Kashmir, tomorrow it can be any other state where the majority might push out the minorities. And you could be one of the affected. It’s high time we stand up and be counted in the cause. After all, we all want a peaceful Kashmir and that’s how it will again be a paradise.

"Kashmir is my birth right, and I shall have it." (Swatantre Gadoo, a Kashmiri Pandit)

http://india.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=139806

Muns · Post by **Muns** » 21 Aug 2008 18:05

For those who haven't seen it :

Sponsored by Indo European Kashmir Forum :
A film by Ashok Pandit :
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... mir+pandit

Admins : Might we not have a First page Sticky Post for the J & K thread to promote documentaries and links like the above. Gets the word and the truth hidden out for most visiting the thread.

Some other links from wiki :

http://shehjar.kashmirgroup.com/viewArt ... scurrent=Y

http://www.kashmirforum.org/

http://www.koausa.org/

http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/main.php?m=M&sm=M

http://www.kashmir-information.com/

http://www.iakf.org/main/

http://www.ikashmir.net/

http://www.panunkashmir.org/

http://www.koacanada.org/

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 21 Aug 2008 20:25

Giving Kashmir away? No way

Is it an orchestrated coincidence or random chance that on August 17, two leading national dailies prominently carried commentaries advocating independence for the Kashmir Valley? With surprising ease and lack of angst, each author has argued in favour of secession by part of an integrally constituted state of the Union of India.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 21 Aug 2008 20:49

Tamang wrote:Giving Kashmir away? No way

Quoting parts of the article which needs to be always remembered.

The UN resolutions of 1948/49 (adopted by the UN Commission for India and Pakistan) are unequivocal and specific in making the proposed plebiscite in all the five regions of Jammu and Kashmir conditional upon
(i) withdrawal of Pakistani troops from all the areas of the state of Jammu and Kashmir that it has occupied (this includes PoK, the Northern Territories and the Shaksgam valley that has been ceded by Pakistan to China); and
(ii) the withdrawal by Pakistan, from these occupied areas of Jammu and Kashmir, of their tribesmen and nationals not ordinarily resident in these areas. The UN Commission in an aide-memoire issued on January 14, 1949, stated that in the event of Pakistan not implementing these pre-conditions, India's acceptance of the UN resolutions would no longer be binding on them.

As recently as March 2001 former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, speaking in Islamabad, accepted the legal and practical difficulties in implementing the UN resolutions and hence their irrelevance. It is evident that the UN resolutions no longer provide any basis for holding referenda either in the Kashmir Valley or in Jammu and Ladakh.

Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India, and will remain so. The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir itself recognises this. Any move to hold a referendum in any part of Jammu and Kashmir would contradict the fundamental statement in Section 3 of the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir that 'the State of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India'. Section 147 prohibits any amendment of Section 3 by the state legislature. In any case, India has stringent laws that forbid secessionist activity.

It is time that the people of India and all national political parties come out unequivocally against anyone who advocates secessionism. In this context, the print and electronic media too should be more responsible about giving prominence to such views.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Aug 2008 21:05

Jammu: Protesters attack Congress leader

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Aug 2008 21:08

Giving Kashmir away? No way
Rajiv Sikri

Rajiv Sikri recently retired as Secretary in the Ministry of External Affairs, New Delhi after more than 36 years service as a diplomat.

Bharati · Post by **Bharati** » 21 Aug 2008 22:16

I visited Pak forums to see the mood there regarding the valley protests. Most of the posters there are Indians and all that the pakis are doing is whining.

On a serious note, pakis in general seem to be quite unaware of the realities and have been lapping up the propaganda that their govt makes.

Muns · Post by **Muns** » 21 Aug 2008 22:28

One thing that amazes me when it comes to pakistani Sunni's and in a large part to a growing islamic media. They seek to critique India's majority Hindu's about democracy and that the rights of the valley Sunni Kashmiris are being supressed, on any media stream they can get their hands on. Even Al-jazeera had a segment on just the valley Sunni kashmiris protests. What of Jammu?

In fact the answer seems to be clear when dozens of muslims are dying at the hands of muslims on a Daily basis. Whether it's the pakistani govt conducting Air Raids on FATA, killing civilians in NWFP and Balochistan, even moderates such the recently killed prince of Swat, their blowback with the Taliban killing more muslims in retaliatory suicide bombs and continue ad nauseum.
Not too mention constant ongoing sectarian killings of Shia's by Sunni's with the recent being in the Kurram agency....200 have died there in the last 2 weeks alone according to the BBC.

None of this hardly gets a hoot on Al-jazeera, pakistani media and the like. A protest erupts in Kashmir over the mere handing over of land for a shrine and every eminent educated imam and muslim from Birminghamstan to Islumabad are all voicing their concerns for the Sunni muslims in the valley.
Not a hoot of the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits either....

The rules seem pretty clear to me. Killing of muslims by muslims on a daily basis is halaal. Killing of Shia's, Sufi's and Ahmediyas by Sunni's and their repercussions is acceptable and tolerated. When you can't get those Kill the Dharm Hindu's and the other non believers.

Its a clash of civilizations and religions. Their actions, voices and preaching are starting to turn even moderates such as I.

Return the Land to the Sangarsh Samiti and let the truth prevail!

Sectarian clashes in Pakistan :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7573113.stm

Pakistan bombers hit arms factory :

At least 63 people have been killed and dozens injured in twin suicide bombings outside Pakistan's main munitions factory in the town of Wah, police say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7574267.stm

Raicharan · Post by **Raicharan** » 21 Aug 2008 22:41

I think it is a good idea to start a English Language national daily by nationalists forces such as Bharat Rakshak. Of course it has to be run by professionals with only BR people as editors. Initially it can be started in Metros on donations from BR people. I am sure there will be no dearth of donars. In the context of recent political development, I have come to the realization that some bold moves have to be started/propagated/nourished by non-political organizations. Only when it gathers momentum, political parties jump into the bandwagon. It is politically too risky for a nationalist party like BJP to openly propagate some ideas (like flooding Kashmir valley with non-muslims) support for which can be slowly built over time by organizations which does not have any political stake in the game.
I have posted the gist of census data as also the J & K election commission data on the population devide of the whole state in the last thread. I don't see any data to suggest that Jammu population/number of voters is any higher than Kashmir Valley. I do not know why it is being propagated.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Aug 2008 23:03

Muns wrote:One thing that amazes me when it comes to pakistani Sunni's and in a large part to a growing islamic media. They seek to critique India's majority Hindu's about democracy and that the rights of the valley Sunni Kashmiris are being supressed, on any media stream they can get their hands on. Even Al-jazeera had a segment on just the valley Sunni kashmiris protests. What of Jammu?

In fact the answer seems to be clear when dozens of muslims are dying at the hands of muslims on a Daily basis.

None of this hardly gets a hoot on Al-jazeera, pakistani media and the like. A protest erupts in Kashmir over the mere handing over of land for a shrine and every eminent educated imam and muslim from Birminghamstan to Islumabad are all voicing their concerns for the Sunni muslims in the valley.
Not a hoot of the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits either....

The rules seem pretty clear to me. Killing of muslims by muslims on a daily basis is halaal. Killing of Shia's, Sufi's and Ahmediyas by Sunni's and their repercussions is acceptable and tolerated. When you can't get those Kill the Dharm Hindu's and the other non believers.

Its a clash of civilizations and religions. Their actions, voices and preaching are starting to turn even moderates such as I.

Media is also a political tool and only Indians/Hindus think that media is neutral.
The Arab media and Pak media talk about democracy without having their own internal one and Indians are naive and fools to read and agree on those opinions.
Arab media want the freedom of liberal democracy in reporting other societies but do not want those same freedom in their own country. This is known as Hippocratic. But Indian reporters report for those same arab media companies and do not realize the psy ops in the situation.

Media is also another form of warfare in a clash of civilizations and religions and Indians/Hindus are not aware of this.

Bharati · Post by **Bharati** » 22 Aug 2008 02:39

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... urpg-1.cms
'Martyred' Hurriyat leader was not killed by police

M K Narayanan told the Union Cabinet on Thursday that it was not at all clear who had fired the fatal bullet at Aziz, a former Al Jehad leader who was part of the march on the Srinagar-Muzzaffarabad highway.

What is he talking about and why didn't he tell this to the KMs when he went visiting?

Narayanan was responding to a question by Union steel minister Ramvilas Paswan, who pointed out that it was rather unusual for a leader to be killed in police action.

Look as Paswan batting for separatists, and Narayanan cooks up the story on the spot.

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 22 Aug 2008 03:26

Acharya wrote: Media is also a political tool and only Indians/Hindus think that media is neutral.
********
Arab media want the freedom of liberal democracy in reporting other societies but do not want those same freedom in their own country. This is known as Hippocratic. *******.

Er... Acharya, I think you are trying to say Hypocrisy ... Hippocratic Oath is taken by physicians for ethical practice.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 22 Aug 2008 04:41

Raicharan wrote:I have posted the gist of census data as also the J & K election commission data on the population devide of the whole state in the last thread. I don't see any data to suggest that Jammu population/number of voters is any higher than Kashmir Valley. I do not know why it is being propagated.

You had mistakenly placed "Punch district" in Kashmir, whereas it is actually in Jammu.

Secondly the migrants from the valley, even though living in Jammu mostly, have not yet been removed from the voter list of the valley as they are made to vote through postal ballot. Their number is 4 lakh, which gives Jammu a majority.

Thirdly the census did not cover internally displaced persons, namely the over 6 lakh POK refugees mostly living in Jammu. These unfortunate people are not allowed to vote in J&K, even though 24 POK seats are lying empty in the J&K assmebly. With these additional Hindus and Sikhs, Jammu's population will dominate Kashmir's by a whopping 60%!

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 22 Aug 2008 05:47

Well it turns out that the POK refugees have an even bigger population of 12 lakh

around half of whom live in camps in Jammu. And their living conditions are just horrible

:

For us camp is the only home

PoK refugees in Jammu and Kashmir are housed in camps scattered across the Jammu, Kathua, Rajouri, Poonch and Udhampur districts. These camps consist of cramped, one-room units that offer their inhabitants very little protection and security. Sanitation and drainage is poor. Residents also lack access to basic healthcare services.

Mishro Devi, a resident of Gadigarh camp, Jammu, migrated from Mirpur to India in 1947. Her children were born and raised at the camp. Trapped in debt and with no prospect of employment, two of her sons committed suicide. Charan Kaur lives in a one-room hut in Bhour camp. Her family fled to India in 1965. “I don’t have any source of income and there is no family member to support me,” says Kaur. “Back home, my father owned several orchards. I never thought I would be forced to live on charity,” she adds.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh set up five working groups to broaden the scope of the dialogue on Jammu and Kashmir. The groups were set up to deal with confidence-building measures within the state, improve relations across the Line of Control (LoC), monitor good governance, further economic development, and iron out wrinkles in Centre-state relations. Surprisingly, the status, return and rehabilitation of PoK refugees were not on the working groups’ agenda. Nor were representatives of PoK refugee organisations invited to be part of the working groups.

In April 2007, RUF galvanised members of the refugee committee in Jammu to march towards the international border. The rally was scheduled to cross the border and enter PoK as a gesture of protest. The third round-table conference on Kashmir was being held in New Delhi at the time. Though the state police stopped protestors from crossing the border, Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad met representatives of the community and assured them that measures would be taken to chalk out an official relief policy. He ordered an all-party committee set up to look into the demands of the refugees.

The committee, which comprised members of prominent political parties in the state including the Congress, National Conference and PDP, was asked to look into two issues -- the comprehensive settlement of PoK refugees and the question of delimitation. Though members of all political parties agreed on the humanitarian issue of refugee rehabilitation, they differed on the issue of delimitation. The committee was disbanded as members could not see eye-to-eye on delimitation due to political differences.

......and as long as these Islamo-fascists like the Abdullahs and Muftis are appeased by the third-rate Congress (I), the people of Jammu will never get justice.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Aug 2008 07:47

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/au ... hmir.india

The bhikaris are calling their meal ticket bhooke nange. Subtle is the way of Urdu indeed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Aug 2008 09:39

sanjaykumar wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/au ... hmir.india

The bhikaris are calling their meal ticket bhooke nange. Subtle is the way of Urdu indeed.

Aaah - i am beginning to suss out a little of Arundhati Roy's own piskology. The article shows that she is aware of some fundamental facts - but she reserves special hatred for the Indian army. There is something in her mind that keeps spouting bile.

She tries to balance out the views of one side with views from the other side much better than her earlier articles - but it's the army that gets her goat and she is hiding something. Someone, something has insulted her and she is taking it out on the army. She peppers the articles here and there with allegations and innuendo - carefully hiding them with "balanced facts"

And in the end she behaves like a little kid - she wants to run way from it all.

Tough luck lady. If YOU choose to have a bias in your mind you're not going to be honest with yourself are you? Then you simply have to run away from it all.

But the beginnings of understanding of realpolitik come from having to face up to contradictions. Arundhati Roy too has choices she can follow and having figured out all the facts - she realizes that blanket support for free Kashmir can screw her personally too and she doesn't like that. So she wants out. She makes herself spokesman for the Indian people and says "India needs Azadi from Kashmir"

But lady there is a small problem that you DON'T want to address when you speak of everyone's problems and curse the army. When everyone is trying to kill everyone else or grab land - the only entity that will go and sit there and put the lives of its own members on line is the army. And you know that all the horrible things you predict from Azadi can happen if the army is not there. And you realise that the army must be there. So you want run away.

Auntie. You're a confused little girl at heart.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Aug 2008 09:53

India need Azadi from Roy and her ilks. PSec, pinkos, comrades and islamists leave Indians alone.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Aug 2008 09:53

Why not celebrate Arun ki dhoti's article. There are very few countries in the world where something like this could be written-certainly not the United States. Canada, I would have thought but I have never come across anything like this here. Possibly Netherlands/Belgium pre 2001.

I disgree with her on several points but I am in awe of the political system in India that gives this kind of freedom of expression to its citizens. The irony is lost on this chokri.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Aug 2008 11:05

If I were to give an example of how not to write a story/report I would happily point to Arundhoti's piece of crap.

She tries to churn up public sentiments by trying to play 'Devil's advocate' be it Narmada issue, Afzal guru's case and now the ruckus in Kashmir. In all of the above instances she has never cared to take into consideration the 'big picture' , in this case too she chooses to portray the grim image of the valley and how rest of the India has neglected the state for past 50+ years.

What baffles me is she has used the terms Hindu fundamentalists for the 'people of Jammu' , while the ones who wish to go to the otherside have been quoted as non-violent protestors.

WTF is this

In 1990, when the overtly Islamist militant uprising in the valley coincided with the spread of virulent Hindu nationalism (Hindutva) in the Indian plains, the number of pilgrims began to increase exponentially. By 2008 more than 500,000 pilgrims visited the Amarnath cave, in large groups, their passage often sponsored by Indian business houses.

So Hindu devotees == Hindu Fundamentalists ? Btw who are these Hindu fundamentalists ? And is she trying to justify the militancy in Kashmir by falsely coming up with this idea of spread of Virulent Hinduism .

And wha on earth do I make of the following ?

Syed Ali Shah Geelani began his address with a recitation from the Qur'an. He then said what he has said before, on hundreds of occasions. The only way for the struggle to succeed, he said, was to turn to the Qur'an for guidance. He said Islam would guide the struggle and that it was a complete social and moral code that would govern the people of a free Kashmir. He said Pakistan had been created as the home of Islam, and that that goal should never be subverted. He said just as Pakistan belonged to Kashmir, Kashmir belonged to Pakistan. He said minority communities would have full rights and their places of worship would be safe. Each point he made was applauded.

I imagined myself standing in the heart of a Hindu nationalist rally being addressed by the Bharatiya Janata party's (BJP) LK Advani. Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the green flags with saffron ones and we would have the BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India.

The Indian military occupation of Kashmir makes monsters of us all. It allows Hindu chauvinists to target and victimise Muslims in India by holding them hostage to the freedom struggle being waged by Muslims in Kashmir.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 22 Aug 2008 11:17

negi wrote:If I were to give an example of how not to write a story/report I would happily point to Arundhoti's piece of crap.

She tries to churn up public sentiments by trying to play 'Devil's advocate' be it Narmada issue, Afzal guru's case and now the ruckus in Kashmir. In all of the above instances she has never cared to take into consideration the 'big picture' , in this case too she chooses to portray the grim image of the valley and how rest of the India has neglected the state for past 50+ years.

What baffles me is she has used the terms Hindu fundamentalists for the 'people of Jammu' , while the ones who wish to go to the otherside have been quoted as non-violent protestors.

WTF is this
In 1990, when the overtly Islamist militant uprising in the valley coincided with the spread of virulent Hindu nationalism (Hindutva) in the Indian plains, the number of pilgrims began to increase exponentially. By 2008 more than 500,000 pilgrims visited the Amarnath cave, in large groups, their passage often sponsored by Indian business houses.
So Hindu devotees == Hindu Fundamentalists ? Btw who are these Hindu fundamentalists ? And is she trying to justify the militancy in Kashmir by falsely coming up with this idea of spread of Virulent Hinduism .

Yes, even though the Islamic rising is 'militant' it somehow seems milder in the sentence due to the term 'virulent' associated with 'Hindu nationalism'. On second thoughts - miltant hardly connotes to terrorism that was the hallmark of this 'uprising'.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Aug 2008 11:56

shiv wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/au ... hmir.india

The bhikaris are calling their meal ticket bhooke nange. Subtle is the way of Urdu indeed.
Aaah - i am beginning to suss out a little of Arundhati Roy's own piskology. The article shows that she is aware of some fundamental facts - but she reserves special hatred for the Indian army. There is something in her mind that keeps spouting bile.

She tries to balance out the views of one side with views from the other side much better than her earlier articles - but it's the army that gets her goat and she is hiding something. Someone, something has insulted her and she is taking it out on the army. She peppers the articles here and there with allegations and innuendo - carefully hiding them with "balanced facts"

And in the end she behaves like a little kid - she wants to run way from it all.

Tough luck lady. If YOU choose to have a bias in your mind you're not going to be honest with yourself are you? Then you simply have to run away from it all.

But the beginnings of understanding of realpolitik come from having to face up to contradictions. Arundhati Roy too has choices she can follow and having figured out all the facts - she realizes that blanket support for free Kashmir can screw her personally too and she doesn't like that. So she wants out. She makes herself spokesman for the Indian people and says "India needs Azadi from Kashmir"

But lady there is a small problem that you DON'T want to address when you speak of everyone's problems and curse the army. When everyone is trying to kill everyone else or grab land - the only entity that will go and sit there and put the lives of its own members on line is the army. And you know that all the horrible things you predict from Azadi can happen if the army is not there. And you realise that the army must be there. So you want run away.

Auntie. You're a confused little girl at heart.

Guys,
I have to come in with some not so liberal views.
Great nations were not built by taking into account the feelings of every tom, prick and harry.
America, Canada, Australia whatever, just to name a few were built on the bloody bones of their indigenous peoples.
While I am not suggesting that we do the same in Kashmir, let us all truly see it for what it really is, a property squabble. With water at its very root, core issue as mush was wont to say.
The english managed to have their way in australia, america, canada etc because the existing civilizations there were not advanced enough to resist or overcome the insidious invasion, whatever the form it took. The europeans wiped out entire civilizations but pontificate on human rights today.
No tom, prick or harry gave a toss as to who was butchered. They went in and grabbed more than their share while the grabbing was good. All this is very conveniently forgotten now, the concerned parties have gone to the top of the class and are currently the teacher's pets.
India is a different ball game. The cross and the crescent ( sorry, sounds like a cheap pub! ) did not succeed because civilizationally and culturally we were stronger, more advanced and resilient. Enter max muller, maculay and others of their ilk. They had to tinker with the minds and the social fabric of the country before they could make some headway. I have never understood the weak military force that the indian civilization seems to prefer and persist with. We lack long term memory, the capacity for strategic thought and the indian crab story is very true.
We are not a developing nation but a redeveloping one. In sixty odd years we have risen like the phoenix and are back in stride again.
This, mind you, after being raped, pillaged, plundered and beggared for countless centuries by barbarians of all hues.
This has to touch some very raw nerves.
We are the only country that resisted islam and christianity for centuries and will comfortably continue to do so. All the others have been over run. The cross and the crescent are giving it the good old college try all over again.
Having failed the first time around, they are using the same methods again albeit a bit modernized, catering for the internet and TV.
Even the greatest personae in christianity and islam did not have the freedom of speech that the ordinary Hindus have had through the ages. They could not say that they were god, even though they wanted to. They could only vaguely, slyly hint at it in a very round about way.
They would have been killed had they explicitly said so. Those were the times they lived in and the same is true even today.
However the pagan Hindus can all claim to be god, many a village has its own little living god, fed and revered by the local people as god. Living gods abound and yet no one minds, each to his own. Passersby, including many non hindus hedging their bets, silently seek their blessings, accumulating brownie points for the hereafter. And why not?
We have millions of them, one for each occasion,festival, season and no reason.This is true liberalism, freedom of speech and freedom of spirit. This is why we welcomed and sheltered all comers through the ages, even those wretches who would do us harm by using our given freedoms, to malign and abuse us.
We are pagans who launch satellites and build nuclear reactors. Again, this has to touch some very raw nerves.
We should focus on India. If there has to be a little bloody pile of bones then so be it.
Greatness does not come from pussyfooting around.
Don't burn down your house to rid yourself of a few vermin.
Better to burn the vermin.

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Aug 2008 12:38

Guys - Arundotti is a known gadfly - why give her space and increase hits to guardian.uk? Those holier-than-thou look-you-need-us-to-keep-you-civilized types need Arundotty to boost their own image. Do not get yourself in twists over Arundotty - instead a well written blog from Jammu is worth it and also another blog from Kashmir - assuming they have the sense in them to be computer literate instead of being a bunch of azadi windbags ...

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Aug 2008 12:44

shiv wrote:Auntie. You're a confused little girl at heart.

You are being very charitable. She is a gadfly! I would rather call her ga-n-dfly!

gad·fly
Pronunciation:
\ˈgad-ˌflī\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
1gad
Date:
1593

1 : any of various flies (as a horsefly, botfly, or warble fly) that bite or annoy livestock 2 : a person who stimulates or annoys especially by persistent criticism

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Aug 2008 19:51

The Indian media will twist themselves into knots trying not to name a "community"
Violence in Jammu, police stations torched

In Poonch, police fired in the air to disperse members of a community who surrounded a police station and pelted stones on it after offering Friday prayers. They were protesting against registration of a case against some members of their community in connection with an attack on a chemist shop and assault on a person on Tuesday.

Raicharan · Post by **Raicharan** » 22 Aug 2008 20:03

Airavat,
Thanks for your corrcetions. I had corrected for Punch in my earlier post, still the numbers were not in favour of Jammu. Indeed, if you incorporate these informations you just mentioned the population numbers will be 27 L for Kashmir Valley, 45 L for Jammu (includes 4L for Kashmiri Pandits, 12 L for Hindu/Sikh people from POK). The population share will be 37% for Kashmir valley, 61% for Jammu and 2% for Ladakh. Indeed, that is a legitimate ground for discontent/agitation. All of India should support an agitation for proportionate representation of everybody in India. The Jammu protestters though are not highlighting this point too much, atleast this is not their primary demand, I do not know why.
I have a question though. What is the source of your numbers?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Aug 2008 20:40

Gerard wrote:The Indian media will twist themselves into knots trying not to name a "community"
Violence in Jammu, police stations torched
In Poonch, police fired in the air to disperse members of a community who surrounded a police station and pelted stones on it after offering Friday prayers. They were protesting against registration of a case against some members of their community in connection with an attack on a chemist shop and assault on a person on Tuesday.

Yes, its quite annoying. These kind of reports confused many people about similar incidents in Bijbehara and Kishtwar.
In Bijbehara, it was a Sikh driver from Jammu who was lynched by "Majority community" (Muslims)
and in Kishtwar "majority community"(muslims) again was responsible for torching shops of "minority community"(Hindus) and lobbing grenades at a procession being taken out by the latter. Some reports in local papers suggested that a few government employees belonging to "majority community" were involved in Kishtwar incident.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 22 Aug 2008 20:51

Hurriyat man killed, 4 injured in accident

Friday, August 22, 2008, (Srinagar)
One man died and four others were critically injured on Friday when an overloaded bus of Hurriyat Conference supporters hit an electric wire while heading to Srinagar for a separatist rally.

Police said the man who died after being electrocuted in Bijbehara town in Anantnag district had been identified as Nisar Ahmad. Two of the injured were sent to a hospital in Srinagar while the other two were admitted in Anantnag.

For the first time, the separatists decided to offer Friday prayers at the Idgah grounds in the old city area of Srinagar. The lawns are otherwise reserved for offering Id prayers twice a year.

Thousands of Hurriyat supporters from across the Kashmir Valley gathered to listen to their leaders.

The show of strength by the Hurriyat Conference led to closure of shops and schools, ending a three-day break from shutdowns. But there was no extra deployment of police or paramilitary troopers around Idgah in the old city.

"Security forces have been given clear directions to exercise maximum restraint," Director General of Police Kuldeep Khoda said.

The Hurriyat Conference has announced a shutdown on Saturday and Sunday, and called for another rally Monday in city centre Lal Chowk.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 22 Aug 2008 20:57

Four kg of explosives recovered in J-K

Jammu, A plan to trigger blasts was foiled by army troops when they busted an Improvised Explosive Device (IED) making hideout in Reasi district of Jammu and Kashmir, official sources said.

Troops launched a search operation in Barak area of the district on Thursday and busted a hideout which housed an IED manufacturing unit, they said.

Troops recovered four kg of explosives of Pakistani origin, seven remote control IEDs, 11 IED receivers, four IED switches, 17 detonators, three remote controls and four AK rifle magazines.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Aug 2008 20:59

Three jawans, 5 militants killed in encounter in J&K

archan · Post by **archan** » 22 Aug 2008 21:18

Is the Indian response in J&K to both pukis and separatists related to NSG meeting? If yes, then that would mean that we will see more violence and controlled/no retaliation since the meeting is being postponed by another two weeks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2008 21:24

Yes and yes. Yes this related to NSG as the orders were not to have excessive violence to give another stick to the NPA to beat India with and yes there will be more violence as the mtg is postponed. But thanks for pointing out.

Will the electrocuted get the benefits of martyrdom?

archan · Post by **archan** » 22 Aug 2008 21:34

ramana wrote: Will the electrocuted get the benefits of martyrdom?

This will have to be taken to the jirga in PTTTTTMF dhaaga in the absence of the purest dhaaga-e-benis. They can only make this decision.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 22 Aug 2008 21:43

Avinash R wrote:Hurriyat man killed, 4 injured in accident

Good...the dancers are getting it. One by one...they should do something about them. They are not getting off the stage.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Aug 2008 22:46

ramana wrote:Yes and yes. Yes this related to NSG as the orders were not to have excessive violence to give another stick to the NPA to beat India with and yes there will be more violence as the mtg is postponed. But thanks for pointing out.

Will the electrocuted get the benefits of martyrdom?

I guess so. One dude in valley died when he was on his way to attend a procession and his maruti overturned. Locals shouted pro-azadi slogans, downed shutters and beat their chests in his honour. That confuses me a bit. That guy gets 72 houris/ little boys/goats in heaven too??

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Aug 2008 03:54

Pioneer, 23 aug., 2008

Nehruvianism fuelling separatists

The other voice: Alok Goswami | Associate Editor, Panchajanya

Its baffling how secular society is actually encouraging people in Kashmir valley to burn the national flag

What we have witnessed in the Kashmir Valley over the past few days has clearly brought to the fore the total failure of the Congress-led Centre in containing the handful of separatists who were languishing in Srinagar. The Pakistan sponsored anti-Indian Hurriyat leader, Sayyed Ali Shah Gilani,the most hardcore of the lot, minced no words in proclaiming in front of mammoth crowd in Srinagar that he is a "Pakistani Gilani". Other Hurriyat leaders have come out openly to challenge the authority of the Centre and state governments. Terms like "you Indians", "your government", "your Army" are openly thrown about, even on the so-called "national" TV channels of India.

The scenes emerging from the valley are reminiscent of the partition days when the Muslim League divided the sub-continent on the basis of the two-nation theory. The saving grace was Sardar Patel's far-sighted vision, which led to Jammu and Kashmir remaining an integral part of India.

The ongoing agitation of the SASS has acquired a pan-Indian dimension and has become a fight against secessionism. It is a struggle to weed out the anti-Indian pschye that had been allowed to flourish for over 60 years by pseudo-secular politicians. Article 370 of the Constitution of India, since its inception, has abetted the separatist mindset of the pro-Pak elements in Kashmir valley. Congress leaders at the helm of affairs in New Delhi saw it as an instrument to appease their vote bank. The close proximity of Nehru with the then leader of Kashmir Plebiscite Front and later Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, Sheikh Abdullah, ensured a tacit understanding between New Delhi and the valley on a number of issues including maintaining a distance from rest of India.

A close look at the resolution passed by the Kashmir Plibescite Front on April 7, 1957 will reveal the acute anti-India stance of Sheikh Abdullah. On August 20, 1953, a joint Press communiqué issued between the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan, minced no words in stating that "The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people(of J&K) is by fair and impartial plibescite".

It is Article 370 which restricts the Indian State from exercising complete control over Jammu and Kashmir. That is why the Hurriyat opposed the state cabinet's earlier decision to give a plot of only 39-hectares of forest land at Baltal to erect makeshift accommodation for Amarnath pilgrims and that too for only two months against payment of a huge rent.

It created so much discontent in the minds of separatists that the coalition government fell. While bowing out, Ghulam Nabi Azad was heard saying that his coalition partner, the People's Democratic Party (PDP), was in the payroll of "separatists". If that is so, then why did the Congress enter into a coalition with the PDP in the first place?

The Centre, which had earlier distanced itself from this thorny issue saying that it was a "state matter", could easily have handed over the land to the Amarnath Shrine Board after clamping President's rule. Instead, it deliberately allowed the Kashmir valley people to spread their lies and propaganda. The "blockade" bogey was bogus. Yet, against all evidence to the contrary, the Delhi-based TV channels mechanically parroted the Hurriyat's claims about "medicines and baby milk powder" being "denied" to the people of Kashmir. If a blockade was really in force, then how the Hurriyat leaders get petrol for their cars? Why didn't the Centre, which never loses an opportunity to pamper pro-Pakistan elements, fly supplies to Srinagar?

Once again, our pseudo-secular media must take the blame for fuelling anti-India feelings among the Kashmiris. Also played its dirty part in fuelling the separatists' cause. Day in and day out, the channels reported the Amarnath agitation news in such a way that it was made to appear that the land dispute was a ruse invented by the "communalists" in Jammu. This was picked up by the Pakistan as proof enough of the justifiability of the separatists' cause and they went ahead and internationalised the whole issue.

The separatists now claim that Kashmir is azad and the common Kashmiri Muslim has been roped in the name of Islam and Kashmiriyat .The Centre's deliberate silence is making things worse. The Congress-dominated UPA fears that they might loose Muslim votes if they don't take sides with the separatists.

This is more or less a repeat of the 1989 situation when the Rajiv Gandhi and VP Singh governments maintained total silence as thousands of Kashmiri pandits were forced to leave their ancestral homes to save themselves from murder and rape at the hands of jihadis from Pakistan.

Last month, we celebrated the 107th birth anniversary of one of modern India's greatest sons, Dr. Shyama Prasad Mukerjee. He had resigned from the Jawaharlal Nehru cabinet to take to the streets to fight the secessionist designs of the Kashmiri leadership. In 1953, he went up to Srinagar defying the then-prevailing permit system and urged the people of the country to stand unitedly. He gave a clarion call that India is one from Kashmir to Kanyakumari and that Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India where a separate flag, a separate constitution and a separate Chief Executive can never be allowed.

Today, India once again needs to be reminded about the values of patriotism. It is only through patriotic zeal that we can keep this country united.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 23 Aug 2008 04:30

http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/23/stories ... 811200.htm

Congress leaders in Jammu back shrine land movement
Praveen Swami

JAMMU: Key Congress leaders from the Jammu region have called on their party’s central leadership to support the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti, the controversial Hindu-nationalist coalition that has been spearheading the region’s increasingly violent shrine-land movement.

“We hope to impress upon our high command that the Samiti has the unconditional support of all sections of the people of Jammu,” Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Council member R.S. Chib told The Hindu on behalf of a powerful regional party caucus that includes half-a-dozen Ministers of the Congress-People’s Democratic Party alliance government.

Mr. Chib said that the group, who flew to New Delhi on Friday afternoon, would ask the party’s central leadership to back the restoration of a government order allowing the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board to use forest land to accommodate pilgrims.

In addition, Mr. Chib said the group would seek to clear misinformation about the Samiti.

He lashed out at party spokesperson Manish Tewari, who recently said the Samiti and the secessionist All Parties Hurriyat Conference were two faces of the same coin. Mr. Tewari’s statements were irresponsible and ill-informed, Mr. Chib said.

Several members of the Jammu Congress group had offered their resignations from the State cabinet in 2005, after the then-chief minister, Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, had refused to sanction land to the Shrine Board. Later, the Jammu and Kashmir High Court had passed orders compelling the government to allow the Board use of the land.

Instrumental

Members of the Jammu Congress group were also instrumental in compelling the Congress central leadership to reject Mr. Sayeed’s efforts to continue as Chief Minister after the end of the three-year term mandated by a power-sharing deal.

Congress leaders in Jammu have been under intense pressure in recent weeks. While most of them have supported the Samiti, anger against the party’s central leadership has led to mob violence, including an attack on the former Deputy Chief Minister, Mangat Ram Sharma, on Thursday.

The Jammu Congress initiative has come a day before a committee appointed by Governor N.N. Vohra is scheduled to meet Samiti leaders in an effort to hammer out a compromise on the shrine land issue.

The former Chief Secretary, Sudhir Bloeria, who heads the committee, is expected to advocate a four-point formula, involving restoration of the Shrine Board’s land-use rights in return for the inclusion of more ethnic-Kashmiri members in the body and some amendments to the Act governing its functioning. In particular, the government hopes to head off criticism of the deal by Islamists in Kashmir, by introducing an amendment that the head of the Shrine Board will be state subject.

Sources in the Samiti said that while they accepted reconstitution of the Shrine Board was the prerogative of the Governor, they would reject the government’s efforts to amend the Act.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Aug 2008 05:03

So, is autonomy taboo too?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Aug 2008 06:03

Time for democratic fundamentalism in J&K